ID Legality at the cage

Quote: waxie22

You might not like this ZK and it might not work out for you but if I was you I would learn how to play poker or at least find some poker players and trade chips for cash. The poker room has always been an easy place to trade chips for racks. If you don't want to play you could sit down and just act like your going to play a few rounds and let the button pass you and move to another table or just pick up and go to the sports book and after that go to the poker cage and cash out. Other ways to do it in the poker room so my advice written here might not work but it might get you thinking about poker rooms.

You can also trade chips at poker rooms from other Casinos or keep it lower and shuffle things around. It's a pain but so is what your doing now.

Im aware of this practice but there was a horror story that happened once before and probably many other times that didnt make it to the media. There was a guy Nolan Dalla who received a 5k chip from a poker player who owed him money. Turns out when he tried cashing out that chip months later they denied him because he never played at that casino and the chip didnt belong to him. Nevada Gaming couldnt help him either and he ended up losing 5k because of this. That's my fear with all of this. Of course if im receiving cash for the chip i wouldnt run into trouble, but i wouldnt want that to happen to anyone who got my chips and then couldnt cash out either. Just a bad practice in its entirety i believe.

Quote: waxie22

If nothing else you have to give me some credit. You have over 10 pages on this thread and nobody once told you about moving chips around in the poker room or poker community that I read or remember.

Probably because it's illegal. Might want to look up the term structuring. By the way, what did you say your old name on here was?



ZCore13

A transaction in poker chips or in "real" chips at the Banana or Barney levels?

You guys must really want to live dangerously.

First of all a lot of those large denomination poker chips are for specific tournaments from long ago and hookers in Vegas know to reach for their razors if anyone tries to pay them with such things.

Also there are plenty of counterfeit chips floating around town and some teams of non-WASPs who try to lure gamblers away from the casino cameras to do a 'chips for cash' exchange due to Immigration reasons or IRS reasons. Of course the Mark goes back to the casino with those heavily discounted chips feeling real proud of himself until such time as the handcuffs get slapped on him and he gets stuck with the bill for making good on those counterfeit chips. (No the casinos don't cut anyone some slack for being stupid).

I would never do any transaction involving a Banana or a Barney except at the cashier's (actually cage) window of the proper casino. Anything else has too much potential for "cider in your ear".

Quote: Zcore13

Probably because it's illegal. Might want to look up the term structuring. By the way, what did you say your old name on here was?



ZCore13

I missed the part about structuring...?

And is trading chips with someone else really illegal?

Quote: RS

I missed the part about structuring...?

And is trading chips with someone else really illegal?

Trading chips for chips is not illegal but trading chips for cash could be considered structuring and reported on a suspicious activity report.

Quote: waxie22

Well just trying to help and make you think of other ways. I can tell you this. Nolan Dalla kinda makes me think of Alan Mendleson when I hear his name. Very similar actually but I don't want to get into stories or trouble for talking about people or members.

The real point is that you shouldn't be trading 5k chips. I said keep it low... nothing above black... maybe 500 dollar purples or whatever but you want to trade those to players for racks or something like that. I know it is clear you have your ways and your stories and know best. I was just trying to give you some small piece of advice on how to move chips around. It seems you have knocked my advice down very quick though... I commend you!!

If nothing else you have to give me some credit. You have over 10 pages on this thread and nobody once told you about moving chips around in the poker room or poker community that I read or remember.

Good point on being cautious about not talking about people or posters. I remember as a Newbie I was dangerously on thin ice on another website for copying and pasting another poster's post from yet another website without their permission. I did this when asked to show proof of something I was talking about. I got a warning from the Admin saying something like,"You have one strike for copying and pasting another poster's post from another website without their permission. We do not allow this and 3 strikes means automatic permanent ban. I have deleted the post you copied and pasted."(Shouldn't I have not gotten the strike at all since I was a Newbie? Just a warning should have been sufficient)

Quote: Nathan

(Shouldn't I have not gotten the strike at all since I was a Newbie? Just a warning should have been sufficient)

Strike 2 for complaining!

Quote: odiousgambit

Strike 2 for complaining!

LMAO!:D

Quote: RS

You have friends?

Oy vay 🤦‍♂️

Quote: Zcore13

3 years as a Floor Supervisor, 3 years as a shift manager, 5 years as a table games director, 7 or 8 National conventions, many, many talks with some of the biggest names in the business and not once have I ever heard the pit calling the cage to get someone id'd or photographed. Thats not the way it works. The two departments don't communicate for that reason.

What possible reason would the cage have to ask for ID (other than an age check)? And what possible reason would the person working at the cage have to say she was willing to break the law to enforce an ID check?

(ZK, if they tell you it's for an ID check ask "You were willing to take my bets without verifying age, but you can't pay?" Write down everything they say and their name. Then make every effort to show them your ID without actually having it leave your hand. If they insist on taking possession of it, very good chance it's for more information than just a date of birth)

Quote: TomG

What possible reason would the cage have to ask for ID (other than an age check)?

Title 31 - MTL and CTR entries.

Quote: DRich

Trading chips for chips is not illegal but trading chips for cash could be considered structuring and reported on a suspicious activity report.

I don't see how trading chips for cash could be considered structuring, unless you have over $10k in chips.

As long as we're on the topic of CTRs and whatnot, since you seem to know the most about them -- do they apply in all situations, or only to "banking institutions"? What if I go shopping and drop $12k cash on some clothes, would Nordstorms have to file a CTR on me, or not (because they aren't a "banking institution")?

Quote: RS

I don't see how trading chips for cash could be considered structuring, unless you have over $10k in chips.

As long as we're on the topic of CTRs and whatnot, since you seem to know the most about them -- do they apply in all situations, or only to "banking institutions"? What if I go shopping and drop $12k cash on some clothes, would Nordstorms have to file a CTR on me, or not (because they aren't a "banking institution")?

It's disguising the true identity of the person cashing, therefore suspicious. If they know who was the original owner, they'll do the CTR on their name. It was discussed in ' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0786714433/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521325365&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=god+wants+you+to+roll&dpPl=1&dpID=51BMM0X49AL&ref=plSrch] God Wants You to Roll.

Quote: RS

I don't see how trading chips for cash could be considered structuring, unless you have over $10k in chips.

As long as we're on the topic of CTRs and whatnot, since you seem to know the most about them -- do they apply in all situations, or only to "banking institutions"? What if I go shopping and drop $12k cash on some clothes, would Nordstorms have to file a CTR on me, or not (because they aren't a "banking institution")?

Correct. Nordstroms, or your local car dealer, or wherever large cash transactions take place. The CTR is not just for banking institutions.

Quote: FCBLComish

Correct. Nordstroms, or your local car dealer, or wherever large cash transactions take place. The CTR is not just for banking institutions.

Is it just cash? What if you buy a car with a check?

A check is its own record.

Quote: RS

I don't see how trading chips for cash could be considered structuring, unless you have over $10k in chips.

As long as we're on the topic of CTRs and whatnot, since you seem to know the most about them -- do they apply in all situations, or only to "banking institutions"? What if I go shopping and drop $12k cash on some clothes, would Nordstorms have to file a CTR on me, or not (because they aren't a "banking institution")?

You are partially correct, $10k is when a CTR is required to be filed but if I see you exchanging chips for cash I do not necessarily know how much you are exchanging so it would require a SAR to be filed. When a SAR is filed it is not accusing you, it just states that I saw a suspicious cash transaction.

I am only familiar with financial institutional files for Title 31. If the car dealer deposits the cash at his bank a CTR will be filed on the car dealer and it will be up to the dealer to explain where they got the cash.

A few months ago, I changed banks. I got a cashier's check from the old bank for more than $10,000. I did not have to do any paperwork. Did the bank do a CTR without my participation (since they have all my info anyway), or is a CTR not required for a check?

A check is its own record.

The purpose of a CTR is to create a written record of large cash transactions.

Quote: DRich

Trading chips for chips is not illegal but trading chips for cash could be considered structuring and reported on a suspicious activity report.

It's a regular occurrence at poker tables in my neck of the woods. Racks of whites get traded for hundred dollar bills every day. Too small of a transfer?

Quote: Deucekies

A few months ago, I changed banks. I got a cashier's check from the old bank for more than $10,000. I did not have to do any paperwork. Did the bank do a CTR without my participation (since they have all my info anyway), or is a CTR not required for a check?

A CTR is a currency transaction report. Just cash.

The "C" in CTR stands for Cash or Currency. Any CASH transaction of $10,000 or more requires a CTR. Any paper transaction that records a transfer of funds that does not include currency does not require a CTR.

Banks are also required to report transactions that AGGREGATE or add up to $10,000, so two $5,000 transactions would also generate a CTR.

Various schemes to avoid the $10,000 trigger compete with the bank's efforts to attempt to discern aggregation. Banks get fined for failure to report cash transactoins, so they want to uncover attempts to aggregate so that they are not fined.

Since currency is involved, it requires an actual person to accept or surrender the cash. So even if it's a business transaction, there is someone - a real person - involved. Hence an ID - usually a SSN.

In a prior life, I installed commercially available software to analyze a bank's entire cashflow (actual CASH) over a running five-day period trying to uncover aggregation over that period, even though the CTR trigger is (or was - could be lower nowadays) legally over the course of a single business day.

The bank generates the CTR, sends it on it's way (to the IRS? the Treasury? the FBI?) and it's liability for failure to report goes away. The bank is more than willing to be over-eager in it's attempts to find aggregation, whether it's actually going on or not. So totally innocent activity gets swept up in the net, and the opportunity of the feds to want to know more about the participants in some imagined scheme is piqued.

For more information, please contact Skylar White of the A1 Car Wash of Alberqueue, N.M.

Quote: prozema

It's a regular occurrence at poker tables in my neck of the woods. Racks of whites get traded for hundred dollar bills every day. Too small of a transfer?

Too small. Very little chance of exceeding $10,000.



ZCore13

I made an innocent mistake of financing a dance floor and sound system upgrade. $57,000 and change split over six equal payments that came out to $9800 a month. My bank was always very suspicious of some of my deposits , as we were one of the few clubs that didn't take credit cards. I was sat down and read the riot act on SARs and the like.

Quote: billryan

I made an innocent mistake of financing a dance floor and sound system upgrade. $57,000 and change split over six equal payments that came out to $9800 a month. My bank was always very suspicious of some of my deposits , as we were one of the few clubs that didn't take credit cards. I was sat down and read the riot act on SARs and the like.

Very interesting. One of the components of the SAR is the fact that you are prohibited by law from discussing the filing/non filing or even existence of a SAR with a person who may or may not be structuring transactions.

Your bank is probably guilty of violating Title 31 and the bank and the individual you spoke with could be fined up to $250,000. The Federal government does not mess around with this.

Quote: FCBLComish

Very interesting. One of the components of the SAR is the fact that you are prohibited by law from discussing the filing/non filing or even existence of a SAR with a person who may or may not be structuring transactions.

Your bank is probably guilty of violating Title 31 and the bank and the individual you spoke with could be fined up to $250,000. The Federal government does not mess around with this.

Meehhh.......pesky little details. Don't poke holes in billryan's regaling tales of the past.

No, the bank had a small brochure on it that was available upon request. It showed how relatively benign actions could lead to SARs.
I don't know how it is today, but in the mid 1990s, banks interviewed us about it. The laws were fairly new and lots of people were making simple mistakes that could appear sinister. They actually had us sign a form saying we had been informed of the laws and that the bank had a responsibility to report such transactions.