ID Legality at the cage
These casinos think theyre smart because they wait for me to give my chips and then ask for my id and when i say i dont want to give my id and to just give me back my chips, they REFUSE and say they have to hold my chips until i show them id. This is the problem i have and it's illegal on so many levels. First off, they have to tell me ahead of time that they will request my ID, which they do not. Secondly if i say i dont want to give my id, they have no right to REFUSE on giving me my chips back. Lastly, they request ID, but never tell me they will write down all of my information without my consent, steal my information and punch it into the computer.
They even slide my ID into the computer or w.e the f*** they do. They also even try lying straight to my face saying they need to verify the purples, but in the past when they id'd me at the cage and wrote down all my information i had no purples at all. Bunch of two faced immoral frauds working in this industry that do anything for a paycheck.
Ive officially had it and things are about to change very soon.
Quote: MaxPenYou need to maintain a chip inventory. It is done by most counters. This way you are not buying in as well. You're not going to change anything. Stop fighting stuff and adapt to the flow. Is it really that hard?
Yes im aware of all of that, but it's just not convenient at all with all the short sessions and walking unless i buy some type of pouch that i carry with me. I understand everyone always says to not cash out right away and sometimes i dont especially if i take over 2k+ etc in one session.
Quote: ZenKinGYes im aware of all of that, but it's just not convenient at all with all the short sessions and walking unless i buy some type of pouch that i carry with me.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI don't like being carded either. I do understand the law says they can ask for ID, but they use information on the ID without your Express consent. You should be able to hold it down away from the cameras but they won't let you. It's the way it is what can you do. Hopefully we don't see you from the top of the hotel one day with the gun.
I dont know why you mentioned that last part about a gun etc. Please dont associate any of my posts with me conducting any violence. I might sound crazy at times but thats not obviously who i am. What i said about something 'changing soon' was in reference to talking to a lawyer or getting something done in court. Just sick of casinos lying straight to your face at any cost to get your information. So immoral and unethical
FYI I believe that's the first time I have ever posted a picture.
Quote: ZenKinGI dont know why you mentioned that last part about a gun etc. Please dont associate any of my posts with me conducting any violence. I might sound crazy at times but thats not obviously who i am. What i said about something 'changing soon' was in reference to talking to a lawyer or getting something done in court. Just sick of casinos lying straight to your face at any cost to get your information. So immoral and unethical
Let them confiscate your chips. Then contact Bob n. Then collect your payday
Wrong.Quote: darkozLet them confiscate your chips. Then contact Bob n. Then collect your payday
Quote: darkozLet them confiscate your chips. Then contact Bob n. Then collect your payday
Theyre not confiscating the chips, but they say they wont return them to me and will 'hold' them until I show ID. That cant be legal. I should have a right to my chips back if i decide to not show ID, especially if they didnt request ID before i gave them the chips
Easier for you to get a pouch or a dealer's shin wallet or something.
That lawyer dude charges a fortune; a travel wallet is just a few bucks.
Yes you can fight it and all that, but realistically it’s probably not gonna be worth it.
You don’t like when the casinos make it hard for you to earn money, but you want to use the money you do earn on a lawyer so that you can play more. Just use your head for more than a hat rack and you can earn more money without having to fight these ridiculous battles.
Quote: ZenKinGTheyre not confiscating the chips, but they say they wont return them to me and will 'hold' them until I show ID. That cant be legal. I should have a right to my chips back if i decide to not show ID, especially if they didnt request ID before i gave them the chips
How much did you cash out for?
Quote: ZenKinGTheyre not confiscating the chips, but they say they wont return them to me and will 'hold' them until I show ID. That cant be legal. I should have a right to my chips back if i decide to not show ID, especially if they didnt request ID before i gave them the chips
If your total cashout is less than $10k for the 24 hour gaming day you do not need to provide ID. Tell the cage to contact their Title 31 representative for clarification. If they refuse call Nevada Gaming Enforcement Division and they will send an agent out to resolve it. I do know a little bit about this as I teach the Title 31 classes for a bunch of casinos. Also, just by asking for your chips back they are supposed to fill out a Suspicious Activity Incident Report on you that will be reviewed by an internal committee that will determine if they want to file it with the Department of Treasury Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FINCEN). I just filed one of these on a customer yesterday for a different type of incident.
Of course, after paying you they can ban you for being a pain in the ass.
Chips are the property of the casino.Quote: ZenKinGTheyre not confiscating the chips, but they say they wont return them to me and will 'hold' them until I show ID. That cant be legal. I should have a right to my chips back if i decide to not show ID, especially if they didnt request ID before i gave them the chips
Technically, taking home chips, even those designed to become souvenirs, is theft.
There are plenty of cases about the same thing, even on this forum. I'd say look them up, research what to do and not do in those situations, but definitely get solid legal advice from a real practicing attorney that knows the field.
A fanny pack and a chip inventory is definitely the way to go. Might not look the coolest, but it will avoid almost ALL of these interactions/back offs. Fanny Pack = Longevity.
Quote: DRich
Of course, after paying you they can ban you for being a pain in the ass.
I liked DRich’s entire post, but this line right here seems like a really good one to keep in mind.
Quote: DRichIf your total cashout is less than $10k for the 24 hour gaming day you do not need to provide ID. Tell the cage to contact their Title 31 representative for clarification. If they refuse call Nevada Gaming Enforcement Division and they will send an agent out to resolve it. I do know a little bit about this as I teach the Title 31 classes for a bunch of casinos. Also, just by asking for your chips back they are supposed to fill out a Suspicious Activity Incident Report on you that will be reviewed by an internal committee that will determine if they want to file it with the Department of Treasury Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FINCEN). I just filed one of these on a customer yesterday for a different type of incident.
Of course, after paying you they can ban you for being a pain in the ass.
So i was right then, they have no reason to ID me at the cage and its simply heat and them trying to get my information. Of course if its 10k and over it requires a CTR, im aware of that as well. Theyre also not allowed to keep my chips if i ask for them back. Whether they file a SAR is whatever, I still have the right to my chips back. Im just sick of the lying the casinos do straight to your face just to get your information, such a sickening industry.
They even told me recently, it's to 'verify' the purples LOL. Then she asks me how long ago was i playing etc. Give me a break, you dont do that to everyone who cashes in purples, and not even to me every time i cash out purples, but only after I get heat.
Also, sorry, but they cant ban you for being a 'pain in the ass'. They can bluff you and intimidate you, but that wont hold any weight whatsoever. At most its a backoff and ill return very soon. A 'pain in the ass' is not a 'disturbance' or 'disorderly' and as long as my body language on camera has my hands at my side and being polite, good luck to the casino.
Also what do you think all the writing they are doing with my ID and data entry into the computer is anyway? Just storing my information to later check OSN? What exactly are they doing with my ID and the computer?
Actually, I've played at a number of off strip casinos back in my BJ playing days and some of these casinos don't see "big" action a lot (by that I mean cashing out multiple purples) and when I went to cash out they asked what table I was playing at then CALLED the pit to confirm before cashing me out. I did in fact just get done playing so the pit said thumbs up (he was nice enough after I got him to lose his rigid face with a joke or two). Then all was good, but point being they do try to verify where you got the chips from, which you're right doesn't matter. Legally they can't deny the payout unless they believe you're cashing the chips out for another player (I think). Again, consult real legal council.
Lastly, we all know this about casinos. You're not bringing any new info here by saying "wtf they can't ask for my ID, right?!?!" it's part of the "game" and hassle of beating a casino and each and every successful AP has figured out ways of doing it right to attract minimal attention/heat. So instead of complaining about something you can't change (and will probably never change) why not put that effort in to adapting to overcome the obstacles with your brain (or the help of others whom have been through the process).
Ughhhh, yes, they absolutely can. They're a private business and can refuse service to anyone so long as it's not for some biased reason like their skin color. They most certainly can say "we don't want your action anymore and we'd like to ask you to leave our property and never come back." 100% can and will happen if you carry an attitude with every place you go to.Quote: ZenKinGAlso, sorry, but they cant ban you for being a 'pain in the ass'...
Life is NOT fair. Casinos are NOT fair. Instead of raging about it, put that energy towards BEATING it with your brain. Much more rewarding that way.
Quote: ZenKinG
Also, sorry, but they cant ban you for being a 'pain in the ass'.
Lmao ofcourse they can. What is your attitude/demeanor during these situations?
Everything about your stories seem like you need to wear a tin foil hat everywhere you go. Where are you even gambling at? How many purples or above are you cashing out? How old are you? How old do you look? How long are your sessions?
Quote: GlenGLmao ofcourse they can. What is your attitude/demeanor during these situations?
Everything about your stories seem like you need to wear a tin foil hat everywhere you go. Where are you even gambling at? How many purples or above are you cashing out? How old are you? How old do you look? How long are your sessions?
Just to be fair, ZK is from the east coast. In NJ they can not ban you for that and they can not back you off. They will flat bet you. However they can make up a story and ban you for something like disturbing the peace.
Quote: GWAEJust to be fair, ZK is from the east coast. In NJ they can not ban you for that and they can not back you off. They will flat bet you. However they can make up a story and ban you for something like disturbing the peace.
Right to refuse service is a national law
Only time I've ever had to deal with a banning, Missouri Gaming (Dept of Highway Patrol) was i involved and they required statements..So I doubt they will "make up a story" I would assume it's the same process anywhere you go, and all public record. Then you can get a lawyer involved.
Quote: GlenGRight to refuse service is a national law
Only time I've ever had to deal with a banning, Missouri Gaming (Dept of Highway Patrol) was i involved and they required statements..So I doubt they will "make up a story" I would assume it's the same process anywhere you go, and all public record. Then you can get a lawyer involved.
Uston vs. resorts international established that Nj casinos are not fully private companies. The state of NJ is heavily involved in their operations so they can't ban you without just cause
It's been determined the equivalent of being banned from a public bus terminal... In NJ that is
Quote: darkozUston vs. resorts international established that Nj casinos are not fully private companies. The state of NJ is heavily involved in their operations so they can't ban you without just cause
It's been determined the equivalent of being banned from a public bus terminal... In NJ that is
Sure. It's all a case by case. Being an asshole can be a reason, it just all depends on what exactly happened
Quote: RomesActually, even for a CTR you're allowed to refuse ID and they're supposed to then take the best physical description of you they can... and I'd assume this would get a SAR as well... but none the less.
Actually, I've played at a number of off strip casinos back in my BJ playing days and some of these casinos don't see "big" action a lot (by that I mean cashing out multiple purples) and when I went to cash out they asked what table I was playing at then CALLED the pit to confirm before cashing me out. I did in fact just get done playing so the pit said thumbs up (he was nice enough after I got him to lose his rigid face with a joke or two). Then all was good, but point being they do try to verify where you got the chips from, which you're right doesn't matter. Legally they can't deny the payout unless they believe you're cashing the chips out for another player (I think). Again, consult real legal council.
Lastly, we all know this about casinos. You're not bringing any new info here by saying "wtf they can't ask for my ID, right?!?!" it's part of the "game" and hassle of beating a casino and each and every successful AP has figured out ways of doing it right to attract minimal attention/heat. So instead of complaining about something you can't change (and will probably never change) why not put that effort in to adapting to overcome the obstacles with your brain (or the help of others whom have been through the process).
Ughhhh, yes, they absolutely can. They're a private business and can refuse service to anyone so long as it's not for some biased reason like their skin color. They most certainly can say "we don't want your action anymore and we'd like to ask you to leave our property and never come back." 100% can and will happen if you carry an attitude with every place you go to.
Life is NOT fair. Casinos are NOT fair. Instead of raging about it, put that energy towards BEATING it with your brain. Much more rewarding that way.
They cannot unless im 'disruptive' or 'disorderly'. This isnt just for NJ, but the precedent has been set decades ago in the Wilkinson case in Las Vegas. They can only ask you to leave each and every time and cannot trespass/86 you unless you are like I said disruptive in any way
Quote: HunterhillOnce again I'll ask how much did u cash out for?
Anyone that has any experience knows to cash out smaller amounts to avoid these problems.
Yes we all know that you don't have to give Id but it's better to just avoid it.
As everyone else said just keep a chip inventory
You live in Vegas it should be easy to cash out on another day.If purples are a problem check change them at a table and then cash out blacks.
This is elementary 1st year Ap knowledge.
I know about the smaller amounts thing. Usually under 2k is not a problem or even 1500 to be very conservative. I cashed out only 2 purples and some green and didnt think that would warrant an ID check especially for a strip property. It is what it is. I honestly dont think this had anything to do with verifying the purples and it was most likely heat, but who knows i havent played many hours at this place and I believe it was the first time i cashed purples at this property so maybe it was just policy to verify.
I just know every time this has happened in the past where the cage manager takes my ID and starts writing information down and inputting information into the computer, i get backed off shortly after on a following visit.
Ive also heard some horror stories regarding holding higher denomination chips and trying to cash them in later on where the cage asks if you 'played here' and then having them have trouble finding 'when' you played exactly etc and them refusing your cash out. I guess if one holds them for a while, its best to then bring it to the table and get some play on them and color up so if the cage asks if you played here you can say you just did, correct?
I've also seen bellagio pit bosses take my id after the dealer asks to see it. They only managed to get the ID off me because I wonged into a table and the dealer did their normal check of age verification and asked to see the ID, but then the pit boss comes over and takes my id and gets on the phone and goes to the computer for 5-10 minutes. I'm guessing they went to check all the banned members at bellagio or possibly the OSN database because right after that they said I cannot play. Im guessing the cage is a similar process and explains why I'm backed off on the next visit?
Also can flyers be generated through the cage after getting my ID?
The pit or shift boss or surveillance can all call the cage and tell them to id you,that's why it's important to not cash out after playing.
Also if you aren't sure about a casinos cashing thresholds you need to scout the cage,stand in line and watch what happens when others cash purples or more than 1k or 2k see what their policy is.
Quote: HunterhillThe flyers will usually come from surveillance but if the cage has your id it's just more info ,and if you gave an account they will flag it.
The pit or shift boss or surveillance can all call the cage and tell them to id you,that's why it's important to not cash out after playing.
Also if you aren't sure about a casinos cashing thresholds you need to scout the cage,stand in line and watch what happens when others cash purples or more than 1k or 2k see what their policy is.
Yeah, I'm aware of the thresholds and I try to stay under it, but for an on strip property I didn't think 1k would result in an ID check, so I'm guessing this was heat and surveillance saw me walk back into the building and phoned the cage to get my ID perhaps? I didn't cash out right away because I saw the pit get on the phone most likely calling the cage when I walked over to cash out my chips. So I walked out of the building and came back an hour later only to get ID'd anyway.
Can you comment on my previous regarding what information are they exactly entering into the computer and why? Is this to check OSN or banned list at the property? My instinct is an obvious yes, but would like clarification because this cannot just be to 'verify' where the purples or whatever denomination came from. That's a load of hogwash from the cage manger when the amount is a measly 1k for a strip property.
So, assume more than zero are organic.
You look young enough to reasonably ID then. Go to CVS, get some cheap makeup, use Google or YouTube to learn how, and then use that makeup to make yourself look older.
If just one less ID check is worth more than the cost of that makeup, it’s +EV. And, you know what? It only takes a drop to cause a ripple through an entire bucket of water.
I think you’ll be carded more than zero fewer times. Some people are just doing their job, trying not to lose that job and think you look within reasonable carding range.
Quote: HunterhillIt is to see if you are flagged in the system also to see if you have previously cashed out within last 24hours.It wouldn't be up to the cage to see if you are in osn .Even if you don't have a players card if you give Id they will often times create an account for you without your knowledge.
If I wasn't flagged previously, do they then flag me at that present time? How do you explain this process happening to me in the past and then on my next visit getting backed off?
You are not betting purple so why are you letting the dealer color you up? You need to go with the flow and quit trying to swim up the waterfalls. If you are wiping out black from the tray you have already overstayed your welcome or selected the wrong table to begin with.
Quote: MaxPenAlthough the Feds require a casino to CTR over 10k many start collecting data at 3k. Some at less. Heck there are some casino cages that have a standard policy to call the pit on black being presented.
You are not betting purple so why are you letting the dealer color you up? You need to go with the flow and quit trying to swim up the waterfalls. If you are wiping out black from the tray you have already overstayed your welcome or selected the wrong table to begin with.
I only played one shoe and had 3 stacks of green on me. Not that hard to in blackjack even betting only 2x150. Actually that shoe I only got to raise to 2x100.
Purple=problems
Quote: MaxPenAsk for black or walk off with the green.
3 stacks of green kind of hard to walk away with. I've also had the cage ID me after I walked off in the past from the table and told the dealer I dont want to color. The pit boss then got on the phone and called the cage and the cage ID'd me, took all my information down and next visit i get backed off. The best way I guess is to get a chip inventory like you and everyone else said, which was my original plan before coming to vegas, but then decided not to do that since I would be walking more than I planned. Also I've heard some horror stories regarding higher chip denominations not being cashed out. I guess that could be circumvented if you just use the chips in your inventory to play the next time you visit rather than going straight to the cage.
Quote: ZenKinGIf I wasn't flagged previously, do they then flag me at that present time? How do you explain this process happening to me in the past and then on my next visit getting backed off?
Yes if they get your info then it will be passed to surveillance and to casino manager or shift boss then they can have a photo of you and your name and info ,it will say something like player is to be restricted or contact surveillance.
You should have waited more than an hour before cashing out ,at least wait for a different shift, and also a different surveillancene shift.
You live in Vegas so wait a week or two
Also, bad memory, wasn’t there something once about some crap that went down with a storage place that was not a bank closing, being busted into or something?
I don't remember all the details.
Most people I know leave chips in their rooms or cars and or carry some .
Also, the casino that has to check with purples, might be investigating stolen purple chips and just check with every player that comes to the cage with purple chips.
Quote: Mission146I’m not a tables guy. Can a tables guy please answer whether or not anyone keeps their chips in a safe deposit box when not playing? Any banks with longer hours in Vegas than you would find elsewhere in terms of safe deposit boxes?
Also, bad memory, wasn’t there something once about some crap that went down with a storage place that was not a bank closing, being busted into or something?
I have a box in my local Wells Fargo. They close at 6. I called one time at 550, hoping they closed at 7PM. Got the manager who said they closed in ten minutes but if I was close by she would wait for me. Got there at 615 and was in and out in two minutes. I think most banks would have told me to pound sand.
Personally, as a low-roller and non-AP, I've never had an issue with this. I do have one suggestion that might be useful to you, though it still involves giving them your real name.Quote: ZenKinGThey even slide my ID into the computer or w.e the f*** they do.
Have you been presenting them a driver's license? Why not give them a passport or a Global Entry card or some such? It has your name, citizenship, and date of birth, but it doesn't include your address, and I doubt the State Department bar code is something for which the casino can make a lot of use.
YMMV.
Quote: DocPersonally, as a low-roller and non-AP, I've never had an issue with this. I do have one suggestion that might be useful to you, though it still involves giving them your real name.
Have you been presenting them a driver's license? Why not give them a passport or a Global Entry card or some such? It has your name, citizenship, and date of birth, but it doesn't include your address, and I doubt the State Department bar code is something for which the casino can make a lot of use.
YMMV.
Thanks for the suggestion doc
Quote: ZenKinGThis thread wasn't meant for me to just complain about what's happening at the cage. I also want some input if possible regarding what these cage managers are doing with my ID and the data they are entering into the computer? Are they storing my information to later check OSN? I know for a fact this isn't just about just 'verifying' certain denomination of chips. In the past, when this process happens at the cage(requesting id and writing down all my information and scanning my id to the computer), Im backed off in my next visits. What exactly are they doing with my ID and the computer?
There absolutely are times when someone at the cage asks for your ID as a countermeasure against your play. Because you seem to understand what your rights are, it is really weird that you don't take responsibility to protect yourself by not declining to show them your ID.
Quote: ZenKinGThanks for the suggestion doc
What in all honestly, do you think they do with your ID????
In the places where they do hold your ID and put stuff in the computer, do you have a player card there?
