Dealer mistakenly paid when he is not supposed to
That's how it's been explained to me in Jersey and Nevada, but not certain it's correct.
Quote: fearlessdragonIn my blackjack table, dealer mistakenly paid when he should not. I took the winning, then he realised the mistake and asked me to give it back. I gave it back, but what are the gaming commission rules in this? I live in PA.
When a dealer makes a mistake in my favor I usually leave the table and go to another Casino. I'll look to play at that dealers table in the future. I've had it work both ways... dealer mistake... check the tape... adjustment made. I don't mind paying back a mistake if they catch it quick enough.
Quote: billryanMy understanding is that you can't be forced to give it back, but the casino can bar you from future play.
That's how it's been explained to me in Jersey and Nevada, but not certain it's correct.
Don't be so sure about that in PA. They have some tough laws in a casino. They have signs in the casinos that there is no such thing as finders keepers and if you pick up any money found on the floor you will be arrested.
I think that's at least part of why they back up a hand if you don't concede immediately. They want a record that they reproduced the hand, demonstrating their awareness of the mistake, and revealing it to you, not just a quiet correction and move on. JMHO.
Good karma...
Good karma?? The casino all but pours liquor down your gullet, provides females not particularly following a Moslem dress code, fosters a festive atmosphere to impair your mental performance but you want to consider 'karma'?Quote: DJTeddyBearYou should probably give it back even before being asked to do so.
Good karma...
I'd express a bit of surprize, ask for the floor to go thru the discards and then return the money.
Dealers make mistakes in 'their' favor all the time. Only rarely do players get their losses returned.
I've more experience at craps than blackjack (not surprizing for someone with my math skills) but I do appreciate a crew member calling out "Short Stack" when he saw I was being pushed eighty dollars as a buy in stack. And I did appreciate the Venetian guy who endured outright snickers from his fellow crew but stood his ground and held up the game as he proved the overlooked bet for the camera and gave me my winnings for a don't bet he had overlooked.
I generally try to be honest, but not to the point that I polish my halo too vigorously.
Quote: DJTeddyBearYou should probably give it back even before being asked to do so.
Good karma...
Would you also announce the payout mistake if the dealer overpaid another player at the table? (As far as how doing that might affect overall karma at the table, well... we don't even need to go there, do we?)
Quote: billryanMy understanding is that you can't be forced to give it back, but the casino can bar you from future play.
That's how it's been explained to me in Jersey and Nevada, but not certain it's correct.
That's my understanding too, at least for Nevada.
Quote: ahiromuWe get into this kind of discussion every year or two. I keep all mispays, but will quickly give it back if asked every time (tantamount to theft if one refuses imo). The way I see it, they will never inform you that they underpaid you, but will make up for their own mistakes if pointed out. All I ask for is parity.
I have seen the casino pay a player after a mistake on a few occasions.
Sometimes 10 to 20 minutes after the fact,and the player was totally unaware.
That being said I will usually take the payment but return it if asked.
Quote: HunterhillI have seen the casino pay a player after a mistake on a few occasions.
Playing at the Biloxi Beau Rivage a few months ago, and the Suit walked up to the table, telling the dealer, "Pay $240 to your Number 2. Mr. Mitchell, they just called down to remind us that we underpaid your (straight-) flush (can't recall, but it musta been a great hand) last night."
"Last night" in casino time is "years ago" in Internet time. I was impressed, and it appeared to me that was the case for the other players also.
Of course, that does work both ways. Most people give the money back when they are made aware of the situation.
Quote: FCBLComishWe get calls from surveillance all the time telling us that we shorted someone. I immediately go to the table, explain what happened, and pay the player.
You said this before, and I haven't found a better way to say it than to repeat what you said:
Quote:We do it [correct player underpays] all the time at my property as well. When we come over to pay someone who was shorted, you would be amazed at the response from not only the player involved, but all the other players who witness the transaction.
I sure was pleasantly surprised when it happened at the table where I was playing. But, I'm not convinced all casinos "do this all the time" when it occurs. If they did, it might not seem so surprising to players.
This is correct, also in PA. Bob Nersesian discusses this several times in his plethora of appearances on the Gambling With an Edge pod cast. You can find his old shows on Richard Munchkins FB page, YouTube account, or at the gamblingwithanedge.com website.Quote: billryanMy understanding is that you can't be forced to give it back, but the casino can bar you from future play.
That's how it's been explained to me in Jersey and Nevada, but not certain it's correct.
Basically, if a casino asks you for your money back you could demand to see the tape of every time the dealer accidentally took money from the players and demand to see that they did in fact pay it back every time. At the end of the day though, there's a few things to keep in mind:
1) It is ILLEGAL to KNOWINGLY take a miss-pay... I'm sure just like everyone else on these forums you're just playing the game, staring off in to space, and collecting the chips you see in front of you. So if you do get a miss-pay, I'm sure you won't tell anyone that you knew it was a miss-pay.
2) You legally do not have to give the money back. However, if it's a small amount you should just go "oh, what happened?... okay, here ya go" and give the money back. It's not worth potentially #3 for $10; especially if you're a counter/AP.
3) The casino can bar anyone for almost any reason as they are a private establishment and can refuse service to anyone just like a restaurant/etc. They can trespass you from their property, take any points/comps you have on your card, etc... So if you were to go this route, the amount in question had better be worth it.
Quote: monet0412A complete cash grab and joke. Anyone in boxing agrees it would take 5 years of serious training to be able to compete at Mayweathers level and that includes professional bouts in boxing. That's boxing not MMA. It's like asking a star pitcher from the MLB to go play in an NFL game for the weekend. Completely different sports. The only chance for McGregor is that "Money" Mayweather takes a dive. That would be awesome if he had a bunch of shills bet on McGregor and they all cleaned up but unlikely these days compared to a hundred years ago. Your telling me that all those great boxers... boxers mind you couldn't beat Floyd but some MMA guy is gonna step into the boxing ring for the first time and win legitimately... ridiculous!
I completely agree with you Monet!!
P.s I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread lol.
Quote: PokerGrinderI completely agree with you Monet!!
P.s I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread lol.
lol ok it wasn't just me. I was trying to figure out what that had to do with an overpayment.
Quote: PokerGrinderI completely agree with you Monet!!
P.s I think you might have posted this in the wrong thread lol.
He had the right thread. Those people are wayyyyy overpaid!!
P.S. Who is going to fill in for PGD in these arguments?
I seem to recall the amount was about two thousand dollars, was caught almost immediately and the sports book manager explained that not only would the employee who overpaid him most likely lose his job, but Rose himself would no longer be hired for meet and greets and the like.
Quote: WizardofnothingI have been prohibited temporarily from playing in pa for refusing to give a large wager back, I gave in once it can to that but I definitely pushed the issue
Just to clarify.
Do you mean you were prohibited from a casino or from the entire state?
Quote: WizardofnothingI have been prohibited temporarily from playing in pa for refusing to give a large wager back, I gave in once it can to that but I definitely pushed the issue
I don't usually side with casinos but I think if they can show that you were paid by mistake that you should have to give it back.
IT'S no different than a bank putting money in your account by mistake.
I've seen players say no ,you paid me so it's mine now, that just seems like a foolish argument to me.
Quote: HunterhillI don't usually side with casinos but I think if they can show that you were paid by mistake that you should have to give it back.
IT'S no different than a bank putting money in your account by mistake.
I've seen players say no ,you paid me so it's mine now, that just seems like a foolish argument to me.
Some people are stupid. Some people are greedy. I was watching the Peoples Court and this woman seemed to feel she shouldn't have to pay for an Ipod because she gave it to someone else. Her sister had put it on her credit card and she'd promised to pay it but kept insisting since she gave it to someone else, she was no longer liable for the bill. Judge tried to explain why she was , but she couldn't get it.
I was thinking about Dan when I posted on page 1:Quote: IbeatyouracesP.S. Who is going to fill in for PGD in these arguments?
Quote: DJTeddyBearYou should probably give it back even before being asked to do so.
Good karma...
Quote: RSIDGAF what ya do, just don't do anything that'll take money out of my hands. If you hit to 22 and dealer pays you and you wanna give it, go ahead. But if I hit to 22 and I get paid then you point that out to the dealer -- don't, just don't.
Snitches get stiches.
Years ago I was playing 3CP and a woman next to me had a nice hit (maybe straight flush) and the dealer paid the pair plus bet but left out the ante bonus part. I calmly mentioned to her that it wasn't right, but the dealer said it was and she didn't argue. I just figured oh well. She was playing multiple greens on each hand so there was a decent amount involved.
Quote: beachbumbabsI always point out an underpay in a nice way if needed, whether my hand or someone else's. I've always been thanked, not punished for it. I also give back overpays right then, but keep my mouth shut if they overpay someone else. It's not my business to protect their game if I happen to be at the table, but I do believe in card karma, and that overpay money is tainted somehow. Yeah, I know, but it's me looking in the mirror in the morning.
I wouldn't be able to play with this way of thinking. I wouldn't even try to play. I'd have to tell the Casino of every mistake they are making. I'd have to tell them about the old coin machines that kept Over Paying me extra coins. I wouldn't be able to play progressives because they are 11% winners. I wouldn't be able to implement some tricks to pad my losses. I'd have to tell all the Casinos that had glitch problems with over paying me points and comps. I'd have to tell my dealers or poker players they are showing me cards that is supposed to be hidden. The list goes on and on. I'm not saying your right or wrong about this tainted money theory but it is too slippery of a slope for me to say some crazy karma theory is why I can't take the money. Some people talk about grey but make no mistake it is all black and white and anything considered grey is really black but this is just my opinion.
If I had some inside information on a stock tip or sports fix I wouldn't be able to clean up because the money would be tainted. Honestly... there is no honest money... it's all tainted in reality believe it or not.
Quote: ZourahIf I'm playing poker and I can see my neighbors cards I always tell them. Yes, I guess technically they are supposed to protect their own hand but that feels like stealing to me. Typically, if this happens it is an older person who has a hard time seeing, I just couldn't live with myself if I took advantage of that.
Might as well play your cards face up because bluffing is lying. You ethically minded gamblers are funny. Poker is nothing but lying and stealing... good grief.
Poker is a game where people voluntarily agree to compete and gamble against one another for money. Therefore, anything I am able to do within the confines of the game to improve my odds of winning seems perfectly honest and reasonable to me as all the players have agreed to the rules of the game.
I don't feel good about taking advantage of someone's handicap though. Is it cool if a blind person asks me to pay for something for them if I shortchange them? If someone drops one of their chips in the casino and I see it my thought isn't "Gee I wonder if I can get away with stealing this? " -- I figure I should return that person's property to them.
Quote: monet0412I wouldn't be able to play with this way of thinking. I wouldn't even try to play. I'd have to tell the Casino of every mistake they are making. ... The list goes on and on. [T]his is just my opinion. ... Honestly... believe it or not.
How can we not believe what you say? Your sermon on personal honesty is inspiring. And, you wouldn't exaggerate on fundamental personal beliefs, right? So, go get'um, Tiger. Show'em how the cow ate the cabbage.
Quote: LuckyPhowQuote: monet0412I wouldn't be able to play with this way of thinking. I wouldn't even try to play. I'd have to tell the Casino of every mistake they are making. ... The list goes on and on. [T]his is just my opinion. ... Honestly... believe it or not.
How can we not believe what you say? Your sermon on personal honesty is inspiring. And, you wouldn't exaggerate on fundamental personal beliefs, right? So, go get'um, Tiger. Show'em how the cow ate the cabbage.
Wow! How did the cow eat the cabbage???
Quote: DeMangoWow! How did the cow eat the cabbage???
The cow ate the cabbage "honestly," reporting every mistake that was made. At least, that's how they've always done whenever I've seen them playing in a casino.
I had once read the Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs poker rules. They cover that situation and are very specific that you are not allowed to try to peek, but if a player is flashing their cards, you're under no obligation to look away or to advise that player about it.Quote: IbeatyouracesI won't tell my neighbor in a poker game that I can see his/her cards and i WILL use it to my advantage.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI had once read the Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs poker rules. They cover that situation and are very specific that you are not allowed to try to peek, but if a player is flashing their cards, you're under no obligation to look away or to advise that player about it.
Well yeah, no rubbernecking.
Quote: monet0412I wouldn't be able to play with this way of thinking. I wouldn't even try to play. I'd have to tell the Casino of every mistake they are making. I'd have to tell them about the old coin machines that kept Over Paying me extra coins. I wouldn't be able to play progressives because they are 11% winners. I wouldn't be able to implement some tricks to pad my losses. I'd have to tell all the Casinos that had glitch problems with over paying me points and comps. I'd have to tell my dealers or poker players they are showing me cards that is supposed to be hidden. The list goes on and on. I'm not saying your right or wrong about this tainted money theory but it is too slippery of a slope for me to say some crazy karma theory is why I can't take the money. Some people talk about grey but make no mistake it is all black and white and anything considered grey is really black but this is just my opinion.
If I had some inside information on a stock tip or sports fix I wouldn't be able to clean up because the money would be tainted. Honestly... there is no honest money... it's all tainted in reality believe it or not.
Lol. Busted. It was all crap.
But I still won't cheat.
If you aren't taping a string to a $100 bill at the slots or VP machines or using a light wand on coin droppers, you aren't trying.
If you don't walk into the exit at a buffet and help yourself to some to-go food, you ain't even trying.
Only help an old lady cross the road if you have a reasonable chance at taking off with her wallet.
"Don't hate the player, hate the game, or something like that." -- Tupac Smallz
Quote: RSTupac Smallz
It's too bad he shot himself.
There's at least one dealer in Vegas that doesn't know how to pay off don't odds. She pays them all off at 5 to 6. Is it wrong to stand next to the DC so the boss never catches it?
Quote: RogerKintIt's too bad he shot himself.
There's at least one dealer in Vegas that doesn't know how to pay off don't odds. She pays them all off at 5 to 6. Is it wrong to stand next to the DC so the boss never catches it?
I worked with a dealer who paid off all lay bets at even money. He figured the 5% juice (which he probably wasn't even charging properly) was all he had to do. The pit boss figured it out when everyone on his side of the table was laying every number and had no other bets in action.
This is the same dealer who dealt an entire double deck shoe backwards and no one noticed, except the floor who basically said "f*** this, if no one complains then no reason to interrupt" to himself. He also had an ace showing, asked for insurance after checking, took insurance bets down. Then flipped over a holecard T, another T, an 8, then a 4 and "busted" and paid the entire table (I don't remember the order of the cards and all that.)
Quote: RSI worked with a dealer who paid off all lay bets at even money. He figured the 5% juice (which he probably wasn't even charging properly) was all he had to do. The pit boss figured it out when everyone on his side of the table was laying every number and had no other bets in action.
This is the same dealer who dealt an entire double deck shoe backwards and no one noticed, except the floor who basically said "f*** this, if no one complains then no reason to interrupt" to himself. He also had an ace showing, asked for insurance after checking, took insurance bets down. Then flipped over a holecard T, another T, an 8, then a 4 and "busted" and paid the entire table (I don't remember the order of the cards and all that.)
The pit boss started to suspect something when the rest of the craps crew changed into street clothes and bought into the game. How much does that bust it blackjack side bet pay when the dealer busts with a 4?
Quote: ZourahI do not worry about the casino if they pay me in error but everyone has to draw a line where they are comfortable.
Poker is a game where people voluntarily agree to compete and gamble against one another for money. Therefore, anything I am able to do within the confines of the game to improve my odds of winning seems perfectly honest and reasonable to me as all the players have agreed to the rules of the game.
I don't feel good about taking advantage of someone's handicap though. Is it cool if a blind person asks me to pay for something for them if I shortchange them? If someone drops one of their chips in the casino and I see it my thought isn't "Gee I wonder if I can get away with stealing this? " -- I figure I should return that person's property to them.
I actually dealt poker for a few years in town. I dealt the WSOP 7 years. My friend who taught me how to deal used to F the house as much as possible. I've dealt for 8 hours solid without taking any rake... because F them! At times I would only take a dollar just so the camera would have something to see. I never had one floor person tell either of us about it. Security never once ever came down. No player ever said a word. You would think some sharp player would notice and tip more... nope. I've actually dealt games getting stiffed left and right and still wouldn't take a rake or at most 1 dollar. If I got in and the rack was down any amount I just made it up from the rake. So many smart ethical poker players but not one time in all my experience dealing did I have one player mention or even give a wink or smile. Not one of these honest players said... uhh you forgot the rake. Another friend of mine dealt some time games and was taking 25 dollars a hand... not one player noticed but he told the floor and they gave them 5 hrs free. My point is... ahhhh I forgot my point but the stories are true. On another note when I ran tournaments I stole over 100 dollars in re buys every day for months with no trouble ever... anyways... stealing is just part of the business.
Quote: RogerKintThe pit boss started to suspect something when the rest of the craps crew changed into street clothes and bought into the game. How much does that bust it blackjack side bet pay when the dealer busts with a 4?
Floor who noticed the blackjack + T + 8 + 4 (or whatever it was) didn't do anything, he was in such shock. He came over to me (I was dealing craps) and told me what happened and sorta jokingly asked what he should do.....like this scenario is so messed up, I can't really do anything can I, it's too great of a moment.
But one of the few times I dealt roulette I was paying corner bets (covers 4 numbers) I was paying at 17:1 instead of 8:1 for quite a while. One spin I finally noticed after I paid a few people, paid the rest of them (everyone had corner bets all over), said I think I paid all that wrong but whatever....my courtesy to let the players know not to max bet the corners anymore. I'm thinking "Yolo, it's the casino's responsibility to pay people the right amount, not mine." (Okay that last sentence was a joke.) I just didn't feel like calling over the boss and everyone arguing n whatnot.
