D Day in Vegas

Quote: ZenKinG

Listen, im sick of bringing up this cheating thing, but again, no one still has given me any proof, rather than hearsay...

Okay, let's end this. I'll give you 100% proof.

I'll bet you $10k... any major strip casino (such as bellagio you mentioned before).. the next time you feel you've been cheated, you let me know and I will instantly talk to the pit, show him the gaming laws, and demand they spread the cards. When all of the cards are there and you know you weren't cheated (100%) then you lose your $10k bet with me. You'll know 100% for a fact, without a doubt, that you were not cheated.

Quote: GWAE

I have already told you 2 times on this site that in PA whenever they change cards they spread the cards face up and verify all the cards. Then they flip them over and mix them up on the table. Once they do that they do the normal shuffle and cards are ready to go. If they would cheat it would have to happen after the cards are in play and not before.

Wrong. Everywhere in PA, the casinos would not show the cards face up, believe me I asked them, whether I was an idiot or not, whatever. What they would do is inspect the backsides of the cards and never flip them up. Although one time i did see a dealer put the cards face up, but every other dealer and pit hoss i asked said they dont do it, so it must have been an anomaly. The only time they would show the cards face up is when they first 'open' the table UPON request and this is due to the regulations in place, you have to 'request' and only when they first 'open' the table for gaming AND if they are not using ASMs. They do not have to show the cards to anyone if they're using a ASM. 'Opening' the table means when take off the metal glass covering the chips and begin the day. The thing is even when you request to see it, all of the cards come pre shuffled and they flip over one deck and that's it and there's literally no chance to see if everything is there.

Quote: DRich

Most, if not all, spread the cards face up in Las Vegas too. Clearly he hasn't put in many hours if he hasn't seen this. I am more convinced now than ever that this whole thread is a hoax.

Well, I haven't been there when they first 'open' the table, maybe they do, but in PA they don't, look at my last post before this one. If they come pre shuffled all bets are off anyway as its impossible to get a read on it as they will likely only show it very fast and won't let you sit there counting it down. To me, cards that come pre shuffled is a red flag. To date, the only casino I've felt comfortable playing in has been Delaware Park in Delaware. All cards came in order and were shown face up to the public. Why every casino in the world can't do this, boggles my mind. Takes two seconds and shows integrity to their customers rather than bringing in suspicion. Takes two seconds and a simple change in procedure.

I worked in three casinos when I was 19. In all three dealer and pit checked the cards before they were shuffled and at the end of the night all cards were sorted and put back in boxes. One card went missing one time and shit hit the fan. About 10 employees involved stayed for hours looking for the card. They ended up taking apart the shuffler and finding it jammed in there.

Quote: PokerGrinder

I worked in three casinos when I was 19. In all three dealer and pit checked the cards before they were shuffled and at the end of the night all cards were sorted and put back in boxes. One card went missing one time and shit hit the fan. About 10 employees involved stayed for hours looking for the card. They ended up taking apart the shuffler and finding it jammed in there.

Small place or big chain property? How can the card get stuck there and no one know? The red light on the ASM would trigger a problem that there's a missing card or defect. Your story doesn't seem plausible.

Whatever, I don't even want to talk about this anymore until I get someone who worked for gaming to chime in. I'm even getting sick of this cheating subject. My point is, I don't understand why its wrong to question it, this is the last industry I would trust to not cheat its customers base for a higher profit. And with the lack of transparency from what I have seen from pit bosses and dealers, just raises red flags.

I am not a card counting expert.

But I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before so I understand how it works. After a bunch of shoes, wouldn't a counter pretty much know for sure whether there were a significant amount of missing cards because the count would consistently be either high or low (on average) when they reach the cut card ?

Quote: JohnnyQ

I am not a card counting expert.

But I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before so I understand how it works. After a bunch of shoes, wouldn't a counter pretty much know for sure whether there were a significant amount of missing cards because the count would consistently be either high or low (on average) when they reach the cut card ?

In a 6-8 deck shoe no. Removing 6-8 cards won't necessarily always make it go higher or lower every time, maybe a pitch(1-2 deck) game.

Quote: ZenKinG

Small place or big chain property? How can the card get stuck there and no one know? The red light on the ASM would trigger a problem that there's a missing card or defect. Your story doesn't seem plausible.

Whatever, I don't even want to talk about this anymore until I get someone who worked for gaming to chime in. I'm even getting sick of this cheating subject. My point is, I don't understand why its wrong to question it, this is the last industry I would trust to not cheat its customers base for a higher profit. And with the lack of transparency from what I have seen from pit bosses and dealers, just raises red flags.

It was the end of the night and the shuffler was turned off so that we could sort the cards. Some Canadian casinos aren't 24 hours. Once we sorted them it was noticed that we were missing a card.

Btw you say you don't want to talk about cheating but yet you keep blaming your losses on it cause clearly that's more logical than just bad variance.

Quote: ZenKinG

\
Whatever, I don't even want to talk about this anymore until I get someone who worked for gaming to chime in.

I work with Nevada Gaming just about every day on casino regulations (but not for Nevada Gaming). I had about six phone calls and ten emails with them just this week.

Quote: DRich

I work with Nevada Gaming just about every day on casino regulations (but not for Nevada Gaming). I had about six phone calls and ten emails with them just this week.

Well, you having six phone calls and emails with them is irrelevant. I want to know what safeguard procedures are in place and who is exactly checking these cards at gaming and how many people can see it? If you haven't noticed, I don't put much trust in our state and federal governments. I don't think anyone should. When money is at stake, these criminals will do anything to raise it. Tax revenue anyone?

You have all the answers, yet persist in asking questions.

For your sake I hope this is a hoax.

Quote: monet0412

Your the one playing the NSUD helping me push the meter while Im over there playing the BnsPkrDlx with a faster royal cycle and only one hand pay. Fat Choy is good though but I haven't been in there for some time so I don't know if it is still as good. Most of that menu is pretty good by the way.

I rarely ever played it. Maybe once for an hour or so and got bored. Progressives aren't my thing, unless it's at least dollars. I rarely see it double or over, and I don't go there often. Just pleasantly surprised at Fat Choy's in that place. Lotus of Siam is close to there, next to the Cue Club. That place is supposedly very great as well. I suppose I'm a restaurant noob, since I have no idea about the gems in this city.

Quote: monet0412

Your the one playing the NSUD helping me push the meter while Im over there playing the BnsPkrDlx with a faster royal cycle and only one hand pay. Fat Choy is good though but I haven't been in there for some time so I don't know if it is still as good. Most of that menu is pretty good by the way.

I rarely eat desserts, but the ones at Fat Choy are the exception.

Quote: MaxPen

Lol...Not that interested. Don't you have a bucket of pennies to sell somewhere?

Can't AP an APer, eh? Cant blame a boy for trying.

Have reservations for thirteen tonite at the Binions steakhouse. Everyone is in town for Dead and Company tomorrow. Have some sort of box for the concert. Not really sure as I've never been to the arena, but my friend who gets comped to the Mansions got it for us. For a low roller like myself, I feel like a hog in a mudbath.
Binions is my favorite steakhouse in Vegas. Bar none. Tuff to choose between the Porterhouse and Bennys' Prime Rib.

Quote: JohnnyQ

I am not a card counting expert.

But I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before so I understand how it works. After a bunch of shoes, wouldn't a counter pretty much know for sure whether there were a significant amount of missing cards because the count would consistently be either high or low (on average) when they reach the cut card ?

You're actually quite correct Johnny. While it won't guarantee every shoe is positive/negative, if they did remove 6-8 big cards then there would be 6-8 extra little cards in the solution. This would cause the counter to see 6-8 extra little cards and to run in to a positive count more frequently than normal.

To ZK's point, it wouldn't be too terribly conclusive after 5 shoes or so... but over the course of 10-20 shoes the counter should notice them going positive more frequently.

Quote: monet0412

I have said this before and now again. The best way to not get cheated is to learn how to cheat.

My best friend freshman year in college was good with card manipulation, taught me a few things.

I learned that I CAN NOT SEE if someone is cheating me.

Maybe with a lot more practice I could, but who knows?
If a casino switches dealers on me and things go cold. I don't fight it. I just leave.

Quote: ZenKinG

Lost another 1400. That puts me at -7400

As most people have said. Been there, done that. Wait until you lose six figures or seven figures. Quite a headache to lose millions. You get to see what "going on tilt" or "going on a funk" for months/years is like.

Your bankroll fits in one side of a pair of cargo pants (can do two bricks of $50K on each side, to carry $200K).
Some people bring in shoulder bags, backpacks, and rollaboards full of cash.

At the Bellagio HL room last visit, I saw two Asians bring in a rollaboard with 11 bricks ($50,000 each) & 3 straps ($10,000 each) = $580,000, which they were counting at the cashier's desk.
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Machines: Just two weeks ago in another state, an out-of-town pro showed up with over $150K in a backpack to play a slot progressive. Hit it early, and probably made $60K-80K. Rumor mill says he was down -$100K to -$250K on one machine play, and up over +$100K on another (people watching saw him hit lots of $10K-20K jackpots on his way to dropping the progressive).

WSOP poker friend showed me a picture of a $120,000 slot win & called it "$12,000". Light bulb went off in my head...this guy makes a LOT more money than me. I would remember the difference between $120K and $12K. Sure enough, he shows me 3 pictures of multi-million dollar slot wins. :-) For one win in a small casino in some remote state, he said had to wait in a hotel for three days to get paid (Sometimes happens in Reno if they are snowed in).
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Video Poker: In November 2009, I was at the Bellagio when a guy hit a dealt royal for $1.2 million on 3x$100. Staff said he cleared $3 million in one weekend. $2 million on Fri, and $1 million on Sun in 5 sessions. The game he was playing was downgraded -1% immediately afterwards.

Same day earlier, Caesars Palace paid a $400K royal. Probably was the same guy. Took the money from Caesars (which may have been a win or loss), and used it to make a profit at Bellagio. Staff said he never came back (at least not for two years).
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Tables: Watched Watanabe play $90,000-180,000/hand at roulette in Caesars Palace for a year or two in early 2000s. He ended up losing $250-280 million (Internet websites have totally futzed the number up....copying each other. I forget the actual number). His loss was about 60% of his net worth, so he didn't go broke.

Saw Sammy Farha playing BJ at Bellagio in the open area with $1.2 million (and $25,000 red chips). 3 hands of table-max $3,000 in 2000s (It was before 2007 recession, limits were lower then). Heard he started with $400,000 and tripled-up.

=====
P.S. When I first visited Vegas in early-1990s, I only brought $1,000 to gamble.

Your bankroll is much healthier than mine was.

A lot of hometown poker pros come to Vegas with $40K-80K in winnings, and pretty much tell a similar story to yours. Many start working regular jobs in Vegas to have a steady income ("implied bankroll").

Quote: billryan

Have reservations for thirteen tonite at the Binions steakhouse. Everyone is in town for Dead and Company tomorrow. Have some sort of box for the concert. Not really sure as I've never been to the arena, but my friend who gets comped to the Mansions got it for us. For a low roller like myself, I feel like a hog in a mudbath.
Binions is my favorite steakhouse in Vegas. Bar none. Tuff to choose between the Porterhouse and Bennys' Prime Rib.

Recently they cleaned up the menu. I still enjoy it there and I suggest anyone going right at sunset or after. I do not see how you can rate them over Circus Circus though. I think today is the last day for my 25% coupons so I might call and see if they are open tonight since they were closed a few days ago. I have a couple of rooms for the weekend and I think the convention is downtown for the next few nights.

I have never eaten in the Circus Circus steakhouse so I can't fairly compare it. I have heard great things about it.
Our reservations are for 730. Close enough to Sunset, but I doubt we will get window tables.

Quote: billryan

I have never eaten in the Circus Circus steakhouse so I can't fairly compare it. I have heard great things about it.
Our reservations are for 730. Close enough to Sunset, but I doubt we will get window tables.

I bet you they put you in the back area by the wine case. Every time I ever seen a party that large they make a long table over there which has a nice view of the mtns and what not.

Hope so.

You talk "Risk of Ruin", but you haven't learned it.

Full Kelly involves a 50% chance of losing 50% of your money.

So losing -10K of 60K isn't even rare.
You have a 50/50 chance of losing HALF.

That's why many pros like Quarter-Kelly or even more conservative.
ROR of 1% is WAY too high for me.

As for those "cheating" strip casinos:

Don't you think that we would have heard about it by now from some whistle-blowing disgruntled employee?

Why would any casino need to cheat, when the games offered give them an edge without cheating?

6:5 IS cheating. It is falsely called blackjack. Blackjack does not pay 6:5 by definition. There is simply no reason for a major, traded corporation to illegally cheat when they can legally cheat. The vast majority of illegal cheating in casinos is performed by dealers and confederate players. They will sometimes cheat other players to make up for the shortfall in drop they experience by shoving chips to confederate players. Casinos will fire and send for prosecution any such folk as they injure the casino's profits.

Quote: QFIT

6:5 IS cheating. It is falsely called blackjack. Blackjack does not pay 6:5 by definition.

How about 1:1 BJ or 2:1 BJ (special 1-day promotion)?

Don't see any complaints about 2:1 BJ...

I like "Double for more" (Harrahs "Carnival Court" in Vegas had this in 1990s, along with 14:1 Pair Square).
Yes. Shocking. Harrahs with good odds! The ones who started 6:5 on the strip (I think...)

Obviously a promotion is not cheating. 1:1 would be cheating (IMO) if it weren't in a variation with offsetting rules, like zweikartenspiel (double exposure).

Quote: QFIT

Obviously a promotion is not cheating. 1:1 would be cheating (IMO) if it weren't in a variation with offsetting rules, like zweikartenspiel (double exposure).

"Double for more" was snot a promotion. It was ongoing for at least a year... (I think).

Payout changes IMO are just "rule variations" (not cheating).
If someone wants to payout 0.5:1 or 3:1 BJ, it's allowed.

See below, the original US blackjack had 10:1 BJ (Ace spades, & black jack)

I liked SuperFun 21 (diamond blackjacks pay 2:1, and others pay 1:1). Single deck carnival game great for counting...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackjack

"Blackjack's precursor was twenty-one, a game of unknown origin. The first written reference is found in a book by the Spanish author Miguel de Cervantes, most famous for writing Don Quixote. Cervantes was a gambler, and the main characters of his tale "Rinconete y Cortadillo", from Novelas Ejemplares, are a couple of cheats working in Seville. They are proficient at cheating at ventiuna (Spanish for twenty-one), and state that the object of the game is to reach 21 points without going over and that the ace values 1 or 11. The game is played with the Spanish baraja deck, which lacks eights and nines. This short story was written between 1601 and 1602, implying that ventiuna was played in Castilla since the beginning of the 17th century or earlier. Later references to this game are found in France and Spain.

When twenty-one was introduced in the United States, gambling houses offered bonus payouts to stimulate players' interest. One such bonus was a ten-to-one payout if the player's hand consisted of the ace of spades and a black jack (either the jack of clubs or the jack of spades). This hand was called a "blackjack", and the name stuck to the game even though the ten-to-one bonus was soon withdrawn."

Talking about Double exposure (DBX). Both dealer cards up. Played DBX at the Stratosphere in the late 70's when Stupak still ran it. It was invented by Richard Epstein. He told me that he didn't bother to patent it and never got a cent from the game.

Quote: GWAE

I have already told you 2 times on this site that in PA whenever they change cards they spread the cards face up and verify all the cards. Then they flip them over and mix them up on the table. Once they do that they do the normal shuffle and cards are ready to go. If they would cheat it would have to happen after the cards are in play and not before.

Wheeling Island, same thing. When the table is first opened the cards have to be verified by a patron before being put in play. Could be a WV Lottery thing, not sure, but that casino certainly does it.

Quote: ZenKinG

Well, you having six phone calls and emails with them is irrelevant. I want to know what safeguard procedures are in place and who is exactly checking these cards at gaming and how many people can see it? If you haven't noticed, I don't put much trust in our state and federal governments. I don't think anyone should. When money is at stake, these criminals will do anything to raise it. Tax revenue anyone?

I think everyone in the entire world should check every deck of cards, twice. All games should be single deck and each deck can only be ran through once.

Quote: mamat

Payout changes IMO are just "rule variations" (not cheating).
If someone wants to payout 0.5:1 or 3:1 BJ, it's allowed..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackjack

Yes, I made a point of differentiating between legal and illegal cheating. I am aware of the history. A major difference in vingt-et-un and BJ was the introduction of the BJ bonus, circa World War I. It evolved and eventually settled on 3:2, which was the rule for half a century. I still maintain that 6:5 with no offsetting variations in favor of the player is legal cheating. You are welcome to your opinion.

Quote: Mission146

I think everyone in the entire world should check every deck of cards, twice. All games should be single deck and each deck can only be ran through once.

I was playing Caribbean Stud in Windsor once and during a change in cards, a brand new deck was cracked open only to find 52 spades. I'm fairly certain that the $1 progressive would've been +EV with it in play! :-)

Quote: Romes

Okay, let's end this. I'll give you 100% proof.

I'll bet you $10k... any major strip casino (such as bellagio you mentioned before).. the next time you feel you've been cheated, you let me know and I will instantly talk to the pit, show him the gaming laws, and demand they spread the cards. When all of the cards are there and you know you weren't cheated (100%) then you lose your $10k bet with me. You'll know 100% for a fact, without a doubt, that you were not cheated.

Won't work. Everyone knows you're in cahoots with the evil empire. You spend all that time writing your A-Z stuff and convincing people they can beat the gaffed game. The only W-2's you have from the casinos are minus the G. Zen is on to you.😜

I have never witnessed a casino in LV, when changing the cards, not show them face up and in order. IE: I've only witnessed them face up & in order.

Btw, you're asking to try to prove/disprove a negative. You just simply cannot do that.


Also, if they were cheating, it would either be very obvious because of how many cards are removed/added OR it would have such a small effect on your actual game, you wouldn't be able to notice it, and your losses would not be evident of such cheating. But "a little bit of cheating" is not going to manifest itself within 15 hours or however much you've played.

Quote: ZenKinG

Small place or big chain property? How can the card get stuck there and no one know? The red light on the ASM would trigger a problem that there's a missing card or defect. Your story doesn't seem plausible.

Whatever, I don't even want to talk about this anymore until I get someone who worked for gaming to chime in. I'm even getting sick of this cheating subject. My point is, I don't understand why its wrong to question it, this is the last industry I would trust to not cheat its customers base for a higher profit. And with the lack of transparency from what I have seen from pit bosses and dealers, just raises red flags.

His story is not only plausible ive seen it happen also where people were looking for a missing card.It is a big deal and employees get in trouble if the card is not found.
Zenking you have very little experience and haven't been to many casinos. Many casinos spread the cards front and back ,just like delaware park.
I prefer the cards that come preshuffled from the factory, it speeds up the opening of the tables.

Quote: RS

Btw, you're asking to try to prove/disprove a negative. You just simply cannot do that.

This is a good example of why an education is not a waste of time, unless you make it one.

Maybe you know this just by common sense, or by reading about logic online. But most people learn that in school.

Supposing there was some theoretical person who had very little common sense, but was given a college education, this is the sort of thing they might pick up in school and apply later in life, whatever their endeavors might be.

ZK, you might benefit from spending time at John Patrick's board, as the conventional wisdom imparted to you by experienced AP's at WoV seems to be falling on deaf ears.

The irishman puts no faith in math, yet paradoxically claims his methods reduce the house edge (or "vig" as he calls it) to zero.

Of course, some say that even a blind pig can find an acorn.

Well lost another 1300. Back down to -7k. Some life this is guys. Might just make a documentary with the 50k at this point. Blackjack is lacking in good production films

Quote: ZenKinG

..Blackjack is lacking in good production films

No. Blackjack films are lacking in real world truth that it's not the easy money it's portrayed to be.

Generally speaking, movie fans go to theaters to escape reality -- not indulge in it.

Quote: QFIT

Generally speaking, movie fans go to theaters to escape reality -- not indulge in it.

Sure. But even the "Breaking Vegas/MIT BJ Team" was full of fluff.

Quote: ZenKinG

Well lost another 1300. Back down to -7k. Some life this is guys. Might just make a documentary with the 50k at this point. Blackjack is lacking in good production films

So did you go back to the cheating strip casinos or did you go back to the place you won at the other day? Maybe they also are cheating now.

IMO. We need to put to rest the question if ZK is a real person who has made his way to Vegas. I lean towards the yes on this one, however a lot of people I respect are very skeptical. I need to take that into account.

I'll PM ZK and Monet aftet the weekend and try to set somthing up so we can get that aspect out of the way.

Weather or not he plays the limits and game's with the skills he's claiming is another issue all together.

I'll shoot for Tuesday evening.

Do either of you two guys have any prior commitments? I'll keep the place and time private. I just want it on record an honest attempt was made to meet up.

Quote: monet0412

I bet you they put you in the back area by the wine case. Every time I ever seen a party that large they make a long table over there which has a nice view of the mtns and what not.

They put us off to the side of the bar, facing the Sleeping Indian. By halfway through the meal, darkness had descended and the view was spectacular.
Food was magnificent. Had the 24 ounce Prime Rib, garlic mash, and split some creamed spinach and truffle fries. With my 25% off coupon from Las Vegas Advisor, it came to $650 for the thirteen of us, although one couple shared a meal.
Highly recommend the place. Sadly, it was half empty, unlike the 6-5 bj tables downstairs.

Quote: Boz

So did you go back to the cheating strip casinos or did you go back to the place you won at the other day? Maybe they also are cheating now.

Coincidentally, I lost on the strip once again. Doesn't even matter to me anymore. Really doesn't. I've given everything I have, played a flawless game for 850 hours only to make 35k. Meanwhile you get all these other stories of people who play 300 hours with similar stakes maybe a bit higher and make a killing and outperform their EV. Just hilarious. Either people don't post the truth or like I said I have to work twice as hard as the next guy just to be even.

This counting grind is really making me reconsider this whole thing. I can do so much more with my life than grind out a 1-2% edge and am thinking of other alternatives already. I have a degree, which these days doesn't mean much anyway, but idk I'll see. I never planned to count cards forever anyway, just wanted to make a lot within 2 years and potentially open up my own business or something. The whole aspect of not knowing if I'm getting cheated really eats at me also.

I wonder if I'm more suited for poker. I will say this, I don't think I'll ever find another 'job' that is as hard as counting cards. Not so much the 'learning' aspect, but the total grind(walking all over the strip, traveling to games, putting in the hours, major swings, months of losing, disguising your play to the pit, etc). There's no way poker is this much of a grind. At least you can just sit there all day not having to look over your shoulder.

Based on your responses on this forum, I can say with confidence you would be terrible at poker.

If cc is the hardest grind ever,....

Sorry, but you're kidding yourself. Since I mentioned ATC before, I'll use it as an example. One of the truths about it (and professional pilot) is that it's hours of boredom punctuated by a few moments of sheer terror.

True for almost any job. Certainly true for AP. You seem to have this idea that cc is low-hanging fruit just waiting for you to pick. Not sure where you got that idea, but not from anybody here. Maybe in the movies. Maybe some Braggart on YouTube or another website. They're exaggerating at best.

Other APs willing to help you here is a slight miracle, as you have nothing to trade at the moment. I like seeing it, fwiw. Maybe your value to them will increase with time, and they're investing in you now.

I want to reiterate... when I got back into card counting in '08, I was in the red for a month and a half. I was spreading $10-$80 and I didn't have the surrender option like he does. Not only that, I bet I put more hours into it as well at the time. A few months later, I had a 3 month streak where I didn't lose a single day. That is just how this venture goes.

I understand a lot of money can be made selling heroin.

That is. if you are willing to risk the potential downside; but hey, life's a gamble, isn't it?

Could be a good fit for a man on the make.