Newbie at Spanish 21

I have just started playing this game a little bit in the last maybe three months. I'm only flat-betting greens, no counting, just learning Basic, and enjoying killing some time at this.

I never was a live BJ player, but I do know a considerable amount of BJ theory and I have played A LOT of video BJ. A lot! The reason I never played live BJ was because I grew up in Gardena, not Nevada, and learned poker instead, at an early age.

Once the online stuff started, for me in 2001, I pretty much gave up everything live. Since then, I almost forgot one of the best things about switching from Live. All the a-holes! By switching to online I got away from all the a-holes. Of course, they can still type nasty insults in chat, but I could ignore it or turn it off.

Here's a COMMON issue I have had to deal with in the last three months. First of all, I already play better than 98% of these people. But the biggest problem so far has been the heat I've gotten for hitting 14 against a dealer 3. I get sh*t every time and from everyone. And Lord help me if I just happen to be on 3rd base. Then the world collapses and it's all my fault. lol I strive to be nice at a live table game of any sort, BJ, poker, it's wise to be pleasant. But I can only take so much crap. The other night I hit 14 against the 3 and the deal killed everyone. The dealer starts rabbit hunting and says the same thing would have happened if I had stayed. F-k it, I just announced, "I DON'T CARE" "Quit crying" "A bunch of grown men crying over a few bucks, in public" "Quit whining". Honestly, I thought I was going to have to fight one guy, naturally the big black guy, twice as big as little old me, and the biggest whiner. Never mind that this idiot takes insurance frequently, in a shoe with no Tens. Idiot.

So it looks like I need to learn to handle the situation better than that. Any suggestions besides telling them to go fk themselves? And I'm a real luckbox, I get hard 14 against dealer 3 about 47% of the time.

I've caught a few dealer mistakes. I'm getting good at that. One dealer gave me half my bet back when I surrendered, but left my bet in the box. That was sweet. And today, a dealer colored up my stack of ten green chips and gave me three blacks. That also was nice.

One interesting thing about this game compared to regular BJ, the regular game seems quick and smooth. But the average Spanish game that I have played in so far is often a cluster. The people are way more interested in all the side match bets than the play of the hand. And the dealer has a lot of things to pay attention to, while at the same time conversing and schmoozing everyone for tokes. Some are experienced and excellent. Others ain't.

I like this game so far. But I don't want to get taken outside and get beat up.

Another couple things I'm noticing. Some dealers regularly cut off 1 deck or a little less, others almost two decks. I assume it's the same in regular BJ but I would think management would direct them to act in a uniform manner. I guess not.

Also, most games I've played in so far have these auto-shufflers with the red light and the green light. Some dealers are very meticulous in not even exposing a molecule of a face of a card. Others are quite sloppy and I can see quite a bit from 1st base. But I don't know what to do with the information. That doesn't stop me, though, from making note of different dealers' techniques. I know one girl who is going to blab her whole shift about her engagement and show her ring off and just never stop talking, and she is very sloppy loading the new shoe, and very sloppy in making assorted mistakes during the game. She's very popular, everyone loves her vivacious personality and I guess that helps her get by as such a sloppy dealer. The floormen love her.

Have you read Katrina Walkers book on it?

Quote: billryan

Have you read Katrina Walkers book on it?

I bought it and received it probably a month or so ago. Deep book. A lot to read and tackle. In other words, I have not digested it yet.

Thanks.

Quote: bobbartop

And today, a dealer colored up my stack of ten green chips and gave me three blacks. That also was nice.

That's a weird one. How did the dealer lay the greens out? What kind of a short circuit makes a dealer think 10 greens = $300?

Quote: Deucekies

That's a weird one. How did the dealer lay the greens out? What kind of a short circuit makes a dealer think 10 greens = $300?

I can't figure it out either. I didn't see how he did it. I pushed what I am sure was a stack of ten chips to him, turned to grab my coat off the back of the chair, and I heard him say "three blacks out" to the floorman, that perked my ears, and I turned and grabbed the three blacks and walked away briskly. That left one lady there, after two others had just left, the table was breaking. Confusing.

In the other instance where the girl gave me $12.50 for surrender and left my green chip in play, I know some other things were going on at the same time and she got confused.

I know one girl who is always in a hurry. Somewhere she got the idea that everyone always stands on A7. She just passed me by and turned over her hand of 17 while I was scratching the table for a card. With her 17 exposed she asked me, "You still want a hit?" I sheepishly said "no". lol From then on she slowed down a little when it was my turn.

This is obviously all old news to you guys who have been playing live for years. But new territory for me.

A note that the Wizard basic strategy (at "/games/spanish-21/") is likely NOT correct. See his Rule #9 at the top, which reads: "Bonus not honored after doubling or splitting", and Rule #10, which says "These bonuses usually do not pay after doubling or splitting, but some casinos allow it"

At least everywhere I have ever played Spanish 21, the 5, 6, and 7 card 21 bonuses are definitely honored after splitting (but not doubling). Same applies for 6-7-8 and 7-7-7, where I always get the bonus payout, even after splitting (but not after doubling). The only bonus you don't get after splitting, is the Super Bonus ($1K or $5K).

This adjustment, assuming your local casino also pays the bonuses after splitting, would probably lead to more splitting hands (since the expected value of splitting is higher, since there is a chance of a bonus), than what the Wizard's strategy charts show. I pointed this out in an email to him many years ago, but he didn't respond, unfortunately. :-(

Quote: AllClear

A note that the Wizard basic strategy (at "/games/spanish-21/") is likely NOT correct. See his Rule #9 at the top, which reads: "Bonus not honored after doubling or splitting", and Rule #10, which says "These bonuses usually do not pay after doubling or splitting, but some casinos allow it"

At least everywhere I have ever played Spanish 21, the 5, 6, and 7 card 21 bonuses are definitely honored after splitting (but not doubling). Same applies for 6-7-8 and 7-7-7, where I always get the bonus payout, even after splitting (but not after doubling). The only bonus you don't get after splitting, is the Super Bonus ($1K or $5K).

This adjustment, assuming your local casino also pays the bonuses after splitting, would probably lead to more splitting hands (since the expected value of splitting is higher, since there is a chance of a bonus), than what the Wizard's strategy charts show. I pointed this out in an email to him many years ago, but he didn't respond, unfortunately. :-(

I've only played at four different places, and I think those bonuses applied after splitting. I remember questioning that, but I'm still too green to say for sure. I'll find out next time I play.

Differences I have noticed are that one place had eight decks instead of six, one place hand shuffled, and one place had two side match bets, one on the dealer's first card and one on his hole card, which seems to create a tad more confusion and clutter on the layout.

I guess I should feel honored that this is your first post on this forum.

Best thing by far to defuse a ploppy is to (in a subtle way) point out just how much of a ploppy they are. I find the best result is by betting =).

Whenever someone gives you any kind of crap, simply pull out a black chip and say "I'll bet you a black chip that what I just did is proper basic strategy." That will more than often shut them up INSTANTLY because it shows you know it and they don't, because anyone willing to back with money is quite often right. To boot, you'll rarely but occasionally get someone to accept. Both give the chip to a 3rd person and then whip your phone out (away from the table) and pull up BS and just say "Thanks for the $100" and continue on playing.

By in large the moment you're willing to put your money where your mouth is people shut up really quick.

Quote: Romes

Best thing by far to defuse a ploppy is to (in a subtle way) point out just how much of a ploppy they are. I find the best result is by betting =).

Whenever someone gives you any kind of crap, simply pull out a black chip and say "I'll bet you a black chip that what I just did is proper basic strategy." That will more than often shut them up INSTANTLY because it shows you know it and they don't, because anyone willing to back with money is quite often right. To boot, you'll rarely but occasionally get someone to accept. Both give the chip to a 3rd person and then whip your phone out (away from the table) and pull up BS and just say "Thanks for the $100" and continue on playing.

By in large the moment you're willing to put your money where your mouth is people shut up really quick.

I'd think the top priority would be to stay under the radar, not to declare yourself an expert.
How do you balance the two?

As discussed in my post above, the Wizard's basic strategy start is for games where the bonuses (5 card, 6-7-8, 7-7-7, etc.) are NOT paid after splitting. See his page on wizardofodds. This is not the same as the Spanish 21 game you would likely be playing.

What this means, is that the basic strategy listed by the wizard, may not be correct for every single Spanish 21 game I have ever seen (where the bonus is paid after splits, but not after doubles)- the only bonus not paid after splitting, is the Super Bonus. It is possible that there should be more splitting than what the Wizard shows, since the bonuses will still be paid.

Or it is possible that the basic strategy listed, really is correct. But don't bet $100, and then have your opponent show you a different chart on his phone, which reflects possible additional splits. :-)

Quote: Romes

Best thing by far to defuse a ploppy is to (in a subtle way) point out just how much of a ploppy they are. I find the best result is by betting =).

Whenever someone gives you any kind of crap, simply pull out a black chip and say "I'll bet you a black chip that what I just did is proper basic strategy." That will more than often shut them up INSTANTLY because it shows you know it and they don't, because anyone willing to back with money is quite often right. To boot, you'll rarely but occasionally get someone to accept. Both give the chip to a 3rd person and then whip your phone out (away from the table) and pull up BS and just say "Thanks for the $100" and continue on playing.

By in large the moment you're willing to put your money where your mouth is people shut up really quick.

This might be ok advice if you're not an AP.
But if you are an AP, I think it's better to not say anything indicating that you know strategy.

Quote: billryan

I'd think the top priority would be to stay under the radar, not to declare yourself an expert.
How do you balance the two?

The OP admitted to not being any kind of expert nor counter, so this should work fine for the OP.

I mostly did this when I started out counting and was at the lower limit tables. I would mostly do it on "common" basic strategy plays such as 12v2 or 12v3 and I'd start by saying "It's just basic strategy" and if they pressed I'd offer a wager.

I'm also a very involved AP at the tables, talking to everyone, making jokes, etc... Where as other professionals might tell you to be a ghost at the table and/or silent / etc. My approach lobbies me to talk, yell, scream, make accusations, etc. Plus I'll generally follow it up with "I don't always agree with the book tho, cuz you gotta change something up sometimes and go with your gut to actually win!" Depends on the situation a bit I guess =P.

Quote: Romes

Best thing by far to defuse a ploppy is to (in a subtle way) point out just how much of a ploppy they are. I find the best result is by betting =).

Whenever someone gives you any kind of crap, simply pull out a black chip and say "I'll bet you a black chip that what I just did is proper basic strategy." That will more than often shut them up INSTANTLY because it shows you know it and they don't, because anyone willing to back with money is quite often right. To boot, you'll rarely but occasionally get someone to accept. Both give the chip to a 3rd person and then whip your phone out (away from the table) and pull up BS and just say "Thanks for the $100" and continue on playing.

What do you do when the player doesn't recognize Wizard's strategy as "basic strategy"? What if they say "The casino wrote the book" or "Who is this Wizard guy anyway?" and don't accept they've lost the bet?

Of course WE all know Wizard's strategy is definitive, but the player you're arguing with probably thinks otherwise.

Quote: AllClear

As discussed in my post above, the Wizard's basic strategy start is for games where the bonuses (5 card, 6-7-8, 7-7-7, etc.) are NOT paid after splitting. See his page on wizardofodds. This is not the same as the Spanish 21 game you would likely be playing.

I feel like this change is negligible enough to not warrant any changes to the table.

Let's see what hands would be affected:
6-6: Strategy says split against a 4-6.
7-7: Strategy says split against a 2-7.
8-8: Strategy says split any time you're not surrendering.
2-2 & 3-3: Strategy says split against 2-8.

8s are obviously unaffected.
Without seeing percentages in front of me, I'd say that splitting 7s against an 8 hoping to catch the bonus is really pushing it.
6s against a 3 I *might* be able to see.

Again I think any change to the odds by this rule is going to be so minimal as to be negligible. That's probably why you're seeing more and more casinos allowing this payout. It's not worth the arguments that happen to save a few pennies.

Quote: Romes

Best thing by far to defuse a ploppy is to (in a subtle way) point out just how much of a ploppy they are. I find the best result is by betting =).

Whenever someone gives you any kind of crap, simply pull out a black chip and say "I'll bet you a black chip that what I just did is proper basic strategy." That will more than often shut them up INSTANTLY because it shows you know it and they don't, because anyone willing to back with money is quite often right. To boot, you'll rarely but occasionally get someone to accept. Both give the chip to a 3rd person and then whip your phone out (away from the table) and pull up BS and just say "Thanks for the $100" and continue on playing.

By in large the moment you're willing to put your money where your mouth is people shut up really quick.

The best part is when they take you up on it! I tried to get a guy to go a C-Note with my position being you split the Aces off of Two Pair at DDB, he declined, but he said we could put a drink on it. Free drink, naturally.

Quote: Mission146

The best part is when they take you up on it! I tried to get a guy to go a C-Note with my position being you split the Aces off of Two Pair at DDB, he declined, but he said we could put a drink on it. Free drink, naturally.

My favorite was I once had a guy tell me the pair square table on our blackjack table only had a 1% house edge (...it did not and I knew it from the payouts it was the 10% HE pay table and even said "are you dropping a 0???"). He was so adamant he bet $100 on it and then HE PULLED UP THE WIZARD OF ODDS where he then denoted "Oh sh*t I'm wrong." and yes, paid up.

Nice! We used WoO to check our bet, too. "How do you know that's right?" I just gave him a look, he conceded with, "Okay, what are you having?"

Quote: bobbartop

I like this game so far. But I don't want to get taken outside and get beat up.

I re-split Aces recently and on one hand I had soft-19, against the dealer's paint card. I don't know BS perfectly yet, but my mind was telling me that this was a hit, with six or more cards. So I was hesitating, and a few people started getting on my ass about it. I never rush anyone, why were they suddenly rushing ME? I am nice and polite, so why were these turds even getting involved, it's my hand, my money.

Finally, I succumbed to their harassment and stood on my 19, but looked it up soon as I got home and saw that it was indeed a hit. Now I wish that I had hit, just to watch everyone go ballistic. Geez.

Quote: billryan

I'd think the top priority would be to stay under the radar, not to declare yourself an expert.
How do you balance the two?

troll the hell out of them by giving them 80% correct advice