Dueling 8's 21

Discussion of this game begins with this post in PokerGrinder's thread about his backpacking travels in Asia. While in Singapore he noticed a new blackjack variation at the Marina Bay Sands. The thrust of the game is that both player and dealer start with an 8. The game uses Spanish decks and pays 6-7-8 bonuses. For the complete rules, strategy, and analysis please see my new page on Dueling 8's 21.

As always, I welcome all questions, comments, and especially corrections. As I write this I'm running a simulation on the game but initial results are showing a house edge of 1.07%.

The question for the poll is would you play Dueling 8's 21? Multiple votes allowed.

I would say instead of:

"2-10 = Pip value"

It would be more technically precise to say 2-9 = Pip Value because there are no actual tens in the deck and the next line specifies that Face Cards = 10.

Anyway, simple strategy, reasonable house edge, I'd probably play it if I was, 'Captive,' to the casino (there with someone) and it was the best game available. In my opinion, it's not that bad a game, you eat a little HE compared to traditional Blackjack, but it comes in exchange for not really having to think about anything. I suppose one downside is I would think it would play faster, if for no other reason, just because there are fewer physical cards to deal.

As Mission indicated, you lose a little house edge vs. BJ but the simple strategy is a real draw for those that have not played BJ before...I can see the game as way less intimidating to play for a beginner table games player...In fact, I would think this game would have a decent shot in the US if it had a better side bet....that HE on the 8's bet is awful & only an 8% hit rate!!

A new 21 year old comes to Vegas having never played BJ before, 4 simple rules and you are on your way. Much easier than trying to teach them all the splits, soft doubles, etc. and likely a faster game (again see Missions comments above).

I forgot to mention it is dealt out of a CSM.

(As are all BJ and Pontoon games at Sands)

Quote: PokerGrinder

I forgot to mention it is dealt out of a CSM.

(As are all BJ and Pontoon games at Sands)

Smart of them. This game would be obviously highly countable.

In Macau as well all blackjack games everywhere are dealt out of a continuous shuffler.

This made me laugh:

Quote:

If you prefer my usual basic strategy charts, I think this is the smallest one I've ever made.

Wanna make it smaller? Remove the soft line since that is a Stand, and falls into the 17-21 Stand group.

Or at least change the label to '19' since that's the only soft hand possible.

To the original question: At 1%, it's not bad. I'd try it although I suspect it would get boring fast.

But, holy crap! Stay away from that 17% side bet!

Quote: DJTeddyBear

This made me laugh:Wanna make it smaller? Remove the soft line since that is a Stand, and falls into the 17-21 Stand group.

I did it that way at first. However, I just know somebody would write and ask how to play a soft 19.

Is there a column missing in the Analysis table of the "Base Game"? I don't see the "Events" on my display.

Quote: Ayecarumba

Is there a column missing in the Analysis table of the "Base Game"? I don't see the "Events" on my display.

Yes; I fixed it. Thanks.

Quote: Wizard

Smart of them. This game would be obviously highly countable.

In Macau as well all blackjack games everywhere are dealt out of a continuous shuffler.

Here is what I got for Effect of Removal (EOR) of cards of each rank. This was done on a composition-dependent spreadsheet with a couple of caveats:

- when hitting 8s after splitting 8-8 the calculation is not perfectly composition-dependent, and there was some approximation in modeling the "split up to 4 times" feature

- I've done this quickly and I may have made a mistake.

- I have not yet included the bonuses for getting an 8-7-6. That will certainly change the EORs,

(Approximate) EOR in terms of change in player EV (in units of %)

A = + 0.184%
"Tens" = + 0.091%
9 = + 0.068%
8 = + 0.214%
7 = + 0.084%
6 = - 0.09%
5 = - 0.214%
4 = - 0.190%
3 = - 0.138%
2 = - 0.111%

Hmmm. Interesting.

I wanted to correct the EOR numbers for Dueling 8s that I had posted in the previous post. I had a small error in my previous calculation; also for the numbers below I've included the effect of the Bonus for an 876/867 hand which was missing in the previous calculation.

(Approximate) EOR in terms of change in player EV (in units of %)

A = + 0.172%
"Tens" = + 0.079%
9 = + 0.056%
8 = + 0.174%
7 = + 0.136%
6 = - 0.088%
5 = - 0.224%
4 = - 0.200%
3 = - 0.148%
2 = - 0.121%