Moving out to play

Quote: ZenKinG

My question to all of you is this; where else would be a nice place to move to in the country that would be a nice EV move to solely play blackjack? I guess you could say Pennsylvania, which I currently play at and live only 1 - 1.5 hours away from home, but I think i've burned out my face a bit there already with several backoffs and moving there only to get backed off soon would be a waste.

Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts

You have Foxwoods, Mohegan Sun, Twin River and there are two more casinos being built (First Light opens in Mass next year) and then there's Wynn Boston Harbor opening up north of Boston.

Foxwoods, Mohegan Sun, Twin River and First Light will be within 30 min to 1.5 hours of each other.

Now that's a loop!! Really good read!

Quote: JoelDeze

Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts

, Twin River.

TR is about the worst possible place a competent card counter could play for reasonable stakes for all the reasons that don't show up on paper.

Quote: MathExtremist

I expect counting opportunities will disappear in the next 20 years because I think there won't be too many physical card games by that point. Once everything's virtual and the software running the RNG can reshuffle after every hand, all of the physical exploits of card games (card counting, hole carding, edge sorting, etc.) become impossible. The only possible edge is from depth-charging and I doubt that will be financially feasible.

I never said anything about running a Fortune 500 company. Senior leadership at a large corporation is an entirely different skill set than what APs use. I was focusing on detail orientation and numeracy under the assumption that all APs exhibited those traits.

Maybe I'm giving APs too much credit. If it's possible to be a successful AP without actually having good attention to detail or understanding numbers, then none of the more-lucrative careers involving detail orientation or numeracy would be a feasible alternative. So let me amend that -- if you do have good attention to detail and good understanding of numbers, I believe AP is not the most lucrative entrepreneurial career you could choose.

In fact, I would be interested in hearing your take on what combination of character traits would indicate that AP is, in fact, the ideal job for someone. What are your thoughts on that?

Using the fortune 500 company example was an obvious exaggeration, but I think you know that, and you got my point.

ME: "Maybe I'm giving APs too much credit" Probably not enough credit, however, it's not what you imagine. That is the problem the casinos and darksiders have, and they are always two steps behind.

Someone said you could teach a monkey to AP. You can teach a monkey to paint too, however, he wouldn't event be able to paint a stick figure, let alone the Mona Lisa. A monkey trained AP probably won't do well in the end however they might get lucky and find short term sucsess.
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Regarding what you said about BJ and how dismissal you tried to make the future sound. While you or someone else might give up or think it's over counting is dead(I have seen many people give up once their games were gone) But I just got excited thinking about the different ways this could benefit me. Perhaps they will add progressive must hits to all the tables, give out much better mail, more frequent easy buy in chip bonuses, add good virtual chip free play, "random" bonuses, run more lucrative special promotions, implement skill gaming somehow, perhaps it will bring back really good BJ tournaments since there's no labor costs and its quick easy to set up and run. I could go on about the possibilities and there's a stuff I wont mention because its already happened on automated table games and will likely to happen again. There are possibilities you cannot imagine however people will know them when they see them Whatever the case... If it's something I was into I would keep exploring ways to beat it. If I was certain it was dead I would concentration on some other form of AP(Then check back again and again and again).
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There's no simple answer regarding what it takes to become a successful AP. There are so many different things. (The above thinking and attitude goes along way). Not to mention there's so many different kinds and levels of AP{s). Perhaps we need to know why many extremely intelligent people including people who have an incredible gift in math who also exhibit "detail orientation and numeracy traits tend to fail at Advantage Play?

I would like to address a true AP's. What I mean by that is someone who is open and willing to play everything and anything within their bankroll and minimum hourly criteria that has an advantage. They do whatever is needed to find and exploit casino advantages, oftentimes they even apply that to other aspects of their lives to get value.

There are many different things that all add up to being a successful AP, there's not some formula.
Thinking out side the box helps tremendously. Being able to quickly recognize there's an advantage on something is significant. You have to be able to walk though a casino, hear something, or see something and realize there's probably something there. Without the ability to do that it would be a serious handicap. It's not always obvious, even for a math guy like yourself. You can't think of everything from a mathematical point of view. Yes, you need the math to back up everything you do. You need the ability to know what to look for, what and where to apply the math and what questions to ask , not just the ability to do the math. A computer or someone else can do the math.

Being able to adapt, diversify and in many cases network. KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT HELPS TOO.

Someone mentioned bankroll management. Hopefully, people won't confuse that with money management or some complicated task. It's simple... DON'T GO BROKE ON A PLAY(or at all). Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Avoid higher denominations with thin edges unless you are well banked and you can handle it. There's nothing worst than losing a big chunk of your BR on a play if it kills your motivation to play lessor plays or grind. There is nothing wrong with playing under your bankroll however over betting your bankroll can lead to disaster.
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I keep hearing how AP is worst nowadays, another myth, things just changed, you just haven't heard the good stories yet. Some people didn't/couldn't adapt thus the rumors of how bleak it is nowadays. The problem is people come in looking for old school methods and plays.

Who are the people claiming it's not as good anymore? New people who read stories of the past? People who gave up when things were slow? People who made their money and moved on? People who didn't adapt?

I had some of my best years after 2011 putting in LESS time, granted I traveled a lot more.

I remember people saying online bonus hunting was all but dead long ago, that was not true, perhaps there not as much smaller in your face good US bonuses and it was different.

I remember years ago people saying all AP was ending due to facial recognition and player tracking.
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If someone is looking at AP as just a career/job just, as a way to just make money, and that's the only reason. I suggest they do something else. I don't look at it as a job or concider it work(obviously, sometimes it feels that way). It's more like a hobby that just happens to replace what would be a job. I would also caution someone that enjoys gambling way too much to proceed with caution. I would also suggest owning your own business doing something you enjoy over anything else, even if that means less money. Wanting to wake up and go to work and not really wanting to leave work is a fantastic feeling.

Quote: Boz

Perhaps you should find a sense of humor. Spinning a yarn? Jesus f'n Christ, who talks like that? No wonder your side still doesn't realize they are so out of touch with most Americans. Loosen the tie, take a break and relax dude, life isn't all that serious and the numbers will still be there when you get back.

" life isn't all that serious and the numbers will still be there when you get back"

Now that was funny.

You should probably get a beer as well (-;

Quote: AxelWolf

There's no simple answer regarding what it takes to become a successful AP. There are so many different things. (The above thinking and attitude goes along way). Not to mention there's so many different kinds and levels of AP{s). Perhaps we need to know why many extremely intelligent people including people who have an incredible gift in math who also exhibit "detail orientation and numeracy traits tend to fail at Advantage Play?

I would like to address a true AP's. What I mean by that is someone who is open and willing to play everything and anything within their bankroll and minimum hourly criteria that has an advantage. They do whatever is needed to find and exploit casino advantages, oftentimes they even apply that to other aspects of their lives to get value.

There are many different things that all add up to being a successful AP, there's not some formula.
Thinking out side the box helps tremendously. Being able to quickly recognize there's an advantage on something is significant. You have to be able to walk though a casino, hear something, or see something and realize there's probably something there. Without the ability to do that it would be a serious handicap.

That's an interesting observation, especially how you've limited it to "casino advantages." I understand you to be defining "advantage player" as someone who deploys their capital on advantageous opportunities in a casino.

There are many other people who seek to deploy their capital on advantageous opportunities, but usually they're called investors or venture capitalists.

Maybe it's time for worlds to collide. Who wants to start an AP hedge fund?

Quote: ZenKinG

Appreciate the advice as always Romes, but again you and others fail to respond to what my initial thread was about, maybe because i wrote too much and everyone just skimmed through it. Yes vegas advice is good and i welcome all advice on vegas, but the point of the thread was more about, WHERE ELSE would I be able to move to that would be convenient, less heat, longevity, profit, etc for a pure counter? I mean im close to PA, i could just move there, but like I said I think i burned my face out there enough already, better for a fresh start. I hope that small garbage sweat shop didnt put me in OSN though, that would be a bummer.

The thread isn't about YOU anymore really.

Here at WOV you WILL get advice if you want it or not. My advice (<<see that) is to welcome all advice and just say thanks and ignore anything you disagree with or don't care to hear.

When are you heading to Vegas to start? NYE is a great time to count in LV. Sometimes casinos even offer something special on the hand at midnight.

Quote: MathExtremist

That's an interesting observation, especially how you've limited it to "casino advantages." I understand you to be defining "advantage player" as someone who deploys their capital on advantageous opportunities in a casino.

There are many other people who seek to deploy their capital on advantageous opportunities, but usually they're called investors or venture capitalists.

Maybe it's time for worlds to collide. Who wants to start an AP hedge fund?

You may have read to much into that. Perhaps I miss worded it. I didn't want to just say, whatever it takes to exploit the casinos. That might suggest marking cards, using a device or something. However, there are gray areas that could be included.

Investing in the right AP would actually be a solid investment. The problem is that the right AP would only need investment in risky plays. It's doubtful anyone successful would want to give up a percentage of themselves for too long.

Quote: AxelWolf

Sometimes casinos even offer something special on the hand at midnight.

Is it anymore special than what I usually do with my hand at midnight?

For straight counting, just go to Vegas. You'll burn counting opps out fast everywhere else. Too much of a grind and long hours are a must to make any decent money.

Quote: RogerKint

Is it anymore special than what I usually do with my hand at midnight?

Doubtful he thinks it's special anymore.

Quote: AxelWolf

You may have read to much into that. Perhaps I miss worded it. I didn't want to just say, whatever it takes to exploit the casinos. That might suggest marking cards, using a device or something. However, there are gray areas that could be included.

Investing in the right AP would actually be a solid investment. The problem is that the right AP would only need investment in risky plays. It's doubtful anyone successful would want to give up a percentage of themselves for too long.

No, I didn't think you were suggesting crossing the line into criminal activity. Once you decide to cross that line, there are far faster ways of making illegal money than cheating casinos.

As to the question of giving up a percentage, that's what businesses do all the time -- give up a percentage of their equity in exchange for working capital. But that's where productivity comes in: when a company takes $1M in seed funding for 10% equity (a $10M post-money valuation) and proceeds to build a corporate value of $25M, now that 10% is worth $2.5M. The whole is worth more than the sum of the parts because with all the parts together, you can build value.

Can you build value with APs? Romes was talking about being on an AP team and having some measure of leverage, but I wonder if that's true across the board. Is it generally the case that a coordinated "company" of APs will outperform their aggregate individual performance? If so, it's rational to combine forces and give up that percentage to build a bigger pie. That's where my question of a hedge fund comes in. Could a team of APs with the right management and financial backing perform better as a group, and therefore realize greater revenue individually and also for the investors, than if they each played individually? If the answer is no, then there's no investment to be made. But if the answer is yes...

The more hands you play, the closer you will get to your expected results. If you gain a 1% advantage, it might not show after 1,000 hands but it will after a 1,000,000 hands. Five players working together will get to the long run much faster than an individual will. Team play also cuts down volatility.
However, a team is only as good as its weakest player and the larger the team, the larger the potential for problems. I imagine internal theft can be problematic.
How do you tell if a player is having a run of bad luck or is skimming?

Quote: billryan

...How do you tell if a player is having a run of bad luck or is skimming?

That's the problem with teams you don't 110% trust. You won't know until it's too late and you have a large enough sampling size to see someone is consistently like 2SD down, which is almost impossible. Or, you could try to short cut and "spy" on your teammates to try to see their action/play, but that just drives more non-trust.

Quote: MathExtremist

...As to the question of giving up a percentage, that's what businesses do all the time -- give up a percentage of their equity in exchange for working capital. But that's where productivity comes in: when a company takes $1M in seed funding for 10% equity (a $10M post-money valuation) and proceeds to build a corporate value of $25M, now that 10% is worth $2.5M. The whole is worth more than the sum of the parts because with all the parts together, you can build value.

Can you build value with APs? Romes was talking about being on an AP team and having some measure of leverage, but I wonder if that's true across the board. Is it generally the case that a coordinated "company" of APs will outperform their aggregate individual performance? If so, it's rational to combine forces and give up that percentage to build a bigger pie. That's where my question of a hedge fund comes in. Could a team of APs with the right management and financial backing perform better as a group, and therefore realize greater revenue individually and also for the investors, than if they each played individually? If the answer is no, then there's no investment to be made. But if the answer is yes...

Anything that has to do with the law of large numbers will always be a factorial quicker to realize their EV with more soldiers on the battle field. Most of the time players in this scenario (with equal partners) don't actually give up EV to one another, as they would earn it themselves anyways. What they're doing by teaming isn't making more money, it's reducing risk and realizing their EV much sooner.

I have to (painfully) agree with Axel though, if you COULD get a competent AP to fund for a % it would be a very solid investment. Hell, I did the numbers and just from BLACKJACK and part time play I could get a better RIO then stuffing it in bonds/banks/etc. I actually thought about presenting these numbers to all my hometown friends/family and offering to teach/launch a team that would basically be a better investment than a 401K plan for all of us... but with better opportunities coming by way I knew I didn't have the time to go down that road.

A successful AP would ONLY need an investor for money to have a larger bankroll and reduce risk. After that, they really don't need the investor... So especially if the first few plays went well and the AP was now fully self funded, they would try to then drop the investor instead of just giving money away when they did all the work/research/scouting/playing/etc/etc.

I also thought about what it would be like to pitch on Shark Tank... I know my numbers. I can prove my advantage... and I could show them a return better than your basic investments. Fund me with a million or two and I'll build a high steaks team to crush casinos, get burned out, but then walk away with what should be some nice profits =P.

Part of reducing risk is increasing EV.

1 person playing full kelly BJCC with $20k can make, say, $100/hour. If he teams up with more APs and they pool their $20k into a $100k roll, they can now each use the pool and earn $500/hour (theoretically) without increasing their ROR. Or they can increase EV by quite a bit and decrease ROR by quite a bit at the same time, by pooling funds. More games and plays to be found with more people, and plays usually cannot be optimized with only 1 player. Different APs are better than others at different tasks. Some are great at scouting or figuring out how to beat something but can't play long hours. Some can play long hours but really struggle in determining how to gain an advantage. Some are better at networking with others and just seem to somehow know everyone in the business.

You wouldn't hire only chefs at a restaurant then expect them to do everything required to run a restaurant.

Quote: Romes

A successful AP would ONLY need an investor for money to have a larger bankroll and reduce risk. After that, they really don't need the investor... So especially if the first few plays went well and the AP was now fully self funded, they would try to then drop the investor instead of just giving money away when they did all the work/research/scouting/playing/etc/etc.

I also thought about what it would be like to pitch on Shark Tank... I know my numbers. I can prove my advantage... and I could show them a return better than your basic investments. Fund me with a million or two and I'll build a high steaks team to crush casinos, get burned out, but then walk away with what should be some nice profits =P.

Like I said, hedge fund. And if you're not correct about not needing the investors going forward -- or needing management, or other contributors besides just players (see RS's post after yours), then it's not just a short-term play. I mean, I've got several ideas for how this might scale into a worthy investment vehicle, but it probably deserves a less public forum...

It would depend on what you are playing. I don't know many successful AP's that don't have at least one partner. Obviously, there are some, especially when it comes to BJ players.

RS covered BJ and various skill sets.

If you also play slots(all forms) it's better if you're working with others for multiple reasons. For example, you find an individual slot progressive. You would want to lock it up with your partners until it hits or you might lose the machine to someone else. You would lose some of your meter movement in that situation and get fewer hours in overall.

You might find a promotion where there are only 2 juicy playable machines. You would need partners or helpers to hold the machines so the strongest fastest players can rest before the play. You'll probably need relief as well.

There are situations where you have been backed off, 86'ed or your face is getting known at a location. Having partners with fresh faces available adds to your EV.
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I have both been an investor and got investors on plays. Personally, I wouldn't want to play something like a $100 VP machine($500 a pop) worth 1.5%. You could lose 100's of thousands. I would rather get investors and get .5 in an hourly wage.

There's also situations where there are unknown factors. Everything looks super good on paper but there's a chance the casino doesn't pay you.

Quote: billryan

I pay $875 base rent, which translates into a $1033 check each month..

I'm not a Las Vegas native.
Weeklies $180-200 + taxes = $200-230/week (prices from three people who stay in weeklies).

A few months ago, a Bally's Spa Attendant told me studios were $200/month (in rough North Las Vegas), $400 (better area), $600 (even better).
He personally was staying in a $400/month place.

My Verizon cell phone is $25/month ($30 with taxes).

Quote: monet0412

Netting 30k a year is doing very well. This is after paying all expenses and tipping. The problem with you number guys is that you want to itemize every little detail. I deal in cash.

Sounds like Machine AP (not VP), which is tough in Las Vegas (although better with 8+ new games released in 2016).
If you play slots for 8 hrs/day, no vacations, that's about 3,000 hrs/yr.

IMO, The net profit of 95-99% machine APs is less than minimum wage $10/hr ($30K/yr bankroll increase).
...if you can net 30K/yr in Vegas, that's excellent.

Many can do gross profit of double minimum-wage $20/hr ($60K/yr before expenses), but are "break-even gamblers" in that their bankroll never increases - drugs, women, some of the "good life", blackjack, baccarat, sports, high-maintenance partner (husband/wife/GF/BF), etc...

There are six-figure machine APs & VP APs today ($33/hr+ Net, not gross), but fairly rare (maybe less than 2-5% IMO).

Seven-figure machine APs in today's world depend on slot machine glitches or unusual situations (which people will keep as quiet as possible). I'm not a heavy VP player, but my VP friends say that $300K/yr ($100/hr @3,000 hrs/yr) is about the top end for today (with mid-six-figure or low-seven-figure bankrolls).

Casinos are less tolerant of VP APs & BJ APs who spend lots of hours, so it's a battle between "longevity" and "profitability" (as another poster mentioned). Many six-figure VP pros only hit the best situations very occasionally (trying for a longer lifespan).
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A huge issue is bankroll & RoR. Some high hourly rate situations demand 500K-1M+ bankrolls for 0.01% (or lower) RoR.

With 50K bankroll, six-figure machine AP is doable, but VP AP is probably not.
Maybe BJ, but going to be dicey if you have to cover expenses...and get unlucky in the beginning.

With BJ & VP, I've had negative months & years.
Slots are more stable.

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I haven't played tables in the past 10 years, but my table friends say "pure BJ counting" has gone practically extinct among pros.
What is being done? Casino promotions/FP/rebates. Sloppy dealers. Poorly designed promotions.

To answer the original question, I haven't tracked BJ counting situations outside of Vegas in 10+ years.

Quote: MathExtremist

Like I said, hedge fund. And if you're not correct about not needing the investors going forward -- or needing management, or other contributors besides just players (see RS's post after yours), then it's not just a short-term play. I mean, I've got several ideas for how this might scale into a worthy investment vehicle, but it probably deserves a less public forum...

Every single one of the people you mentioned (management, etc) would require a % of the take from the play. Diluting the shares of the original AP to enough others and while adding the headache that can be a company/organization will lead the vast majority of AP's to just do it themselves, especially the top pro's because they don't want even that many people knowing the stuff their doing. Then again, perhaps you and the investors are okay with the black box approach of giving the AP all your money and not knowing what specifically they're doing with it?

As Axel pointed out, AP partners can do great things, but I don't know of "too many" pure investment partners. If two AP's combine bankrolls tons and tons of doors open up to them and they both know they're AP's who've put in the time/work/research/etc instead of just shipping off 10% of the take to someone else because they put up money. I get that's how business works, but remember most AP's want to work for themselves, so I don't think they're going to buy in to the traditional "well you put up $10k so you get 10% and don't have to do anything else even though our RoR is < 1% so you really have relatively zero loss and only profits to pull from my research, scouting, and years of hard work / learning."

Quote: Romes

Every single one of the people you mentioned (management, etc) would require a % of the take from the play. Diluting the shares of the original AP to enough others and while adding the headache that can be a company/organization will lead the vast majority of AP's to just do it themselves, especially the top pro's because they don't want even that many people knowing the stuff their doing. Then again, perhaps you and the investors are okay with the black box approach of giving the AP all your money and not knowing what specifically they're doing with it?

That sort of presumes that there isn't meaningful leverage from working together, in which case there isn't an investment opportunity in the first place. I can think of several examples of why that's not the case, especially how it might scale to teams of larger than 3-4 people (which I believe is the size of yours). But again, I think you'd prefer I not discuss that here.

Also, it's not necessarily true that everyone would require a percentage. There are lots of people who are satisfied with working at companies for an hourly salary without equity, and in fact that's the default for basically every hourly worker in this country. Why would this be any different? Let me put this another way: if you weren't an AP but were just a random Las Vegas resident, and someone said to you "I'm going to pay you $20/hour to play slots all day. I'm also going to lend you $100 to play slots with, on the condition that you give me any winnings and whatever is left of the bankroll at the end of the day. So if you play an eight hour shift, you make $160. Deal?" Obviously you tune the numbers to the play, but don't you think you'd get a lot of takers?

Quote: MathExtremist

That sort of presumes that there isn't meaningful leverage from working together, in which case there isn't an investment opportunity in the first place. I can think of several examples of why that's not the case, especially how it might scale to teams of larger than 3-4 people (which I believe is the size of yours). But again, I think you'd prefer I not discuss that here.

Also, it's not necessarily true that everyone would require a percentage. There are lots of people who are satisfied with working at companies for an hourly salary without equity, and in fact that's the default for basically every hourly worker in this country. Why would this be any different? Let me put this another way: if you weren't an AP but were just a random Las Vegas resident, and someone said to you "I'm going to pay you $20/hour to play slots all day. I'm also going to lend you $100 to play slots with, on the condition that you give me any winnings and whatever is left of the bankroll at the end of the day. So if you play an eight hour shift, you make $160. Deal?" Obviously you tune the numbers to the play, but don't you think you'd get a lot of takers?

For $20/hour tax free, yes, I will take it. When will I start?????

Quote: speedycrap

For $20/hour tax free, yes, I will take it. When will I start?????

Tax free? Where did you get the impression that this wasn't going to be a fully-compliant, above-board legitimate corporation? You'll be an hourly contractor and get a 1099.

Heh.

Quote: mamat

I'm not a Las Vegas native.
Weeklies $180-200 + taxes = $200-230/week (prices from three people who stay in weeklies).

A few months ago, a Bally's Spa Attendant told me studios were $200/month (in rough North Las Vegas), $400 (better area), $600 (even better).
He personally was staying in a $400/month place.

My Verizon cell phone is $25/month ($30 with taxes).


Sounds like Machine AP (not VP), which is tough in Las Vegas (although better with 8+ new games released in 2016).
If you play slots for 8 hrs/day, no vacations, that's about 3,000 hrs/yr.

IMO, The net profit of 95-99% machine APs is less than minimum wage $10/hr ($30K/yr bankroll increase).
...if you can net 30K/yr in Vegas, that's excellent.

Many can do gross profit of double minimum-wage $20/hr ($60K/yr before expenses), but are "break-even gamblers" in that their bankroll never increases - drugs, women, some of the "good life", blackjack, baccarat, sports, high-maintenance partner (husband/wife/GF/BF), etc...

There are six-figure machine APs & VP APs today ($33/hr+ Net, not gross), but fairly rare (maybe less than 2-5% IMO).

Seven-figure machine APs in today's world depend on slot machine glitches or unusual situations (which people will keep as quiet as possible). I'm not a heavy VP player, but my VP friends say that $300K/yr ($100/hr @3,000 hrs/yr) is about the top end for today (with mid-six-figure or low-seven-figure bankrolls).

Casinos are less tolerant of VP APs & BJ APs who spend lots of hours, so it's a battle between "longevity" and "profitability" (as another poster mentioned). Many six-figure VP pros only hit the best situations very occasionally (trying for a longer lifespan).
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A huge issue is bankroll & RoR. Some high hourly rate situations demand 500K-1M+ bankrolls for 0.01% (or lower) RoR.

With 50K bankroll, six-figure machine AP is doable, but VP AP is probably not.
Maybe BJ, but going to be dicey if you have to cover expenses...and get unlucky in the beginning.

With BJ & VP, I've had negative months & years.
Slots are more stable.

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I haven't played tables in the past 10 years, but my table friends say "pure BJ counting" has gone practically extinct among pros.
What is being done? Casino promotions/FP/rebates. Sloppy dealers. Poorly designed promotions.

To answer the original question, I haven't tracked BJ counting situations outside of Vegas in 10+ years.

EDIT: You can get a really good monthly for around 650 total in a decent area with no real worries and everything is included. If I wasn't married I would be living there today but I would remodel the interior sort of like how they did it in that movie "Coming To America" without the Hot Tub though lol!

Good post... Very realistic and informed. I could go on and on but my point is for the players who are just starting out and they read these posts in here telling them that it's average to make 100k per year APing. This is not true. If anyone does decide to AP, Gamble or Hustle for a living... just realize... it is a long, dark difficult road ahead. Your better off being a square but that life just wasn't in the cards for me.

I agree with Axel that Bankroll and Money Management are not the same but most players that I know do not have a Bankroll per say. They do not live like the professionals on here making money from other areas and using a "Bankroll" for gambling or AP adventures. Bankroll to most players that I know of in Vegas is just the money that they have TOTAL lol! Don't start trying to teach these guys how to diversify or run separate accounts in life!

About the "I could train a monkey to AP" comment. This was a figure of speech, I just meant that I can pretty much teach anyone to AP and make money as long as they sit next to me and do what I tell them to do. I do this with my own family all the time. They are like my own voice activated machine that I have to watch like a hawk because they keep malfunctioning all the time thinking they know what they are doing when I am not looking! One time... years ago, I told my wife to only sit and watch the machines while I go to the restroom. DO NOT PLAY!! Just sit there and watch both machines with our money in them and don't let anyone take it or them. I came back 2 minutes later and she was banging away on the buttons playing Video Poker as fast as she could. Oh man... did I hit the roof :) !!

Quote: monet0412

Good post... Very realistic and informed. I could go on and on but my point is for players who are just starting out and they read these posts in here telling them that it's average to make 100k per year APing. This is not true. If anyone does decide to AP, gamble or hustle for a living... just realize... it is a long, dark difficult road ahead. Your better off being a square but that life just wasn't in the cards for me.

I agree with Axel that Bankroll and Money Management are not the same but most players that I know do not have a Bankroll per say. They do not live like the professionals on here making money from other areas and using a "Bankroll" for gambling or AP adventures. Bankroll to most players that I know of in Vegas is just the money that they have TOTAL lol! Don't start trying to teach these guys how to diversify or run separate accounts in life!

I have always assumed everything I had was my BR. I know people think that is crazy. But even if I had just had a few thousand I wouldn't just stop playing I would just scale down to that level and tighten up and build it back up. But again I would never ever risk everything on anything. If you start running bad on multiple things you have to tighten up. I try to avoid playing stuff that you could be losing for months. That's why if you arw only card counting that would be a bitch.

Folks should remember there are 4.3 weeks in a month, so a $200 weekly isn't $800 a month. I looked at plenty of $650 studios and they all sucked. Ten year old furniture, disgusting bathrooms, nasty parking lots.
Saw one place, Rebel Place or something that didn't seem that bad, but then realized I'd be sharing a bathroom with three other studios.
Many of the cheaper places only have public WiFi.

Quote: billryan

Folks should remember there are 4.3 weeks in a month, so a $200 weekly isn't $800 a month. I looked at plenty of $650 studios and they all sucked. Ten year old furniture, disgusting bathrooms, nasty parking lots.
Saw one place, Rebel Place or something that didn't seem that bad, but then realized I'd be sharing a bathroom with three other studios.
Many of the cheaper places only have public WiFi.

Yea some valuable advice for me right now would be if we started discussing cheapest and safest places to rent out. I've seen 500 a month a studios but the reviews all mention what a bad neighborhood it is with crime at night and roaches etc. Where's the best place for the money? I dont need anything big, its just me living in it. All i need is a studio.

Any advice billryan?

Quote: ZenKinG

Yea some valuable advice for me right now would be if we started discussing cheapest and safest places to rent out. I've seen 500 a month a studios but the reviews all mention what a bad neighborhood it is with crime at night and roaches etc. Where's the best place for the money? I dont need anything big, its just me living in it. All i need is a studio.

Any advice billryan?

Have you looked into studios? Do they require credit checks or verified employment? You might be better off renting a room from someone. Or look into housesitting. You might be able to live in a big house in a gated community...

Quote: ZenKinG

discussing cheapest and safest places to rent out.

Doesn't belong in the same sentence. Anyway, if you are talking $500 per month in a reasonably safe area you are talking a shared living space realistically, probably renting a room in a home. If you want your own basic place, reasonable not great not bad area and relatively inexpensive Spring Valley area is not a bad option IMO. Idk, maybe things have changed in the couple years since I left.

I don't know much about Vegas real estate but I do know to look for absolutely NOTHING on Bonanza Rd.!!! Also, I saw a guy get jumped pretty badly behind Binions so don't live there.

I'd love to help you out, but I don't know the answers. I came out in January and searched for a studio/ one bedroom in a nice safe location for $700 or so and didn't find one.
I'm in Henderson, about two miles due east from the airport.It's very safe and a nice place. Used furniture is dirt cheap out here. I picked up a very gently used leather lazy boy reclining couch for $100, and an oversized leather recliner for $60. Bought a bed and frame from Amazon. Lots of liquidation spots out here, as well. Got dishes and pots and a pan or two from one.
My best advice would be to pick up the LVA and ACG coupon books and plan on staying a week or two in spots like the El Cortez using logo coupons while you look. There was one place I sort of was interested on, by Koval and Harmon. I forget the name but I'll go past it in a day or two.
I'd spend a little bit more and get a nice, comfortable and safe place.

Quote: monet0412

I could go on and on but my point is for the players who are just starting out and they read these posts in here telling them that it's average to make 100k per year APing. This is not true. If anyone does decide to AP, Gamble or Hustle for a living... just realize... it is a long, dark difficult road ahead. Your better off being a square but that life just wasn't in the cards for me.

I agree with Axel that Bankroll and Money Management are not the same but most players that I know do not have a Bankroll per say. They do not live like the professionals on here making money from other areas and using a "Bankroll" for gambling or AP adventures. Bankroll to most players that I know of in Vegas is just the money that they have TOTAL lol! Don't start trying to teach these guys how to diversify or run separate accounts in life!

Most people who can make $40+/hr consistently for years & grow a bankroll (in my experience) also (1) have part-time or full-time jobs (2) have run businesses before (3) are retired.

Skills necessary to AP profitably (1) Learn to play something with +EV (2) Save money (3) Don't get kicked out (4) Learn to increase hourly rate and/or enjoyment.
P.S. Do NOT copy most pros that you see. Most are not very good. If they are good, they are probably doing their best to stay "invisible".

Bankroll: (1) Current gambling bankroll (which is to many gamblers, ALL of their money) (2) "Implied bankroll" - could be $10K-15K/month FP, salary from full-time job, consulting income from small contracts

Some people go broke 10-15 times/month (and stay up all night when they have no money for a hotel, or can't afford a deposit).
With one friend, I counted 13 times in one month that he went broke.

The "shoot for the moon" strategy of some is NOT necessarily a bad idea (just not my cup of tea).
Compare to stock market investing. One strategy is to make some money from a regular job, then shoot for $100,000 with options or other risky plays. If you make $100,000, then put 80-90% in S&P 500 index funds or something safe. If you lose it all, go back and make some more money from your regular job.

It's kind of like playing 80% Keno. -EV, but you might get lucky!

----
One guy I know started playing AP slots, and in his second year, he was already at six-figures. Very, very rare. Guy had a natural talent. Learned from the small games, and boot-strapped his way up. Paid off his debts. Bought a new truck. etc...

Just like a stock market investor I met on-line. Took a class in stock investing. In one year, started with $5K-10K. Paid off $30K-50K in credit card debts. Made a whole pile of money. Wow!

It can be done. It's like being LeBron James (well, maybe more like being a college player or NBA player). Not easy.

----
Me, I wasn't so good. I gambled recreationally for 20+ years before I ever had a six-figure year.

Quote: mamat

Most people who can make $40+/hr consistently for years & grow a bankroll (in my experience) also (1) have part-time or full-time jobs (2) have run businesses before (3) are retired.

Skills necessary to AP profitably (1) Learn to play something with +EV (2) Save money (3) Don't get kicked out (4) Learn to increase hourly rate and/or enjoyment.
P.S. Do NOT copy most pros that you see. Most are not very good. If they are good, they are probably doing their best to stay "invisible".

Bankroll: (1) Current gambling bankroll (which is to many gamblers, ALL of their money) (2) "Implied bankroll" - could be $10K-15K/month FP, salary from full-time job, consulting income from small contracts

Some people go broke 10-15 times/month (and stay up all night when they have no money for a hotel, or can't afford a deposit).
With one friend, I counted 13 times in one month that he went broke.

The "shoot for the moon" strategy of some is NOT necessarily a bad idea (just not my cup of tea).
Compare to stock market investing. One strategy is to make some money from a regular job, then shoot for $100,000 with options or other risky plays. If you make $100,000, then put 80-90% in S&P 500 index funds or something safe. If you lose it all, go back and make some more money from your regular job.

It's kind of like playing 80% Keno. -EV, but you might get lucky!

----
One guy I know started playing AP slots, and in his second year, he was already at six-figures. Very, very rare. Guy had a natural talent. Learned from the small games, and boot-strapped his way up. Paid off his debts. Bought a new truck. etc...

Just like a stock market investor I met on-line. Took a class in stock investing. In one year, started with $5K-10K. Paid off $30K-50K in credit card debts. Made a whole pile of money. Wow!

It can be done. It's like being LeBron James (well, maybe more like being a college player or NBA player). Not easy.

----
Me, I wasn't so good. I gambled recreationally for 20+ years before I ever had a six-figure year.

Well right now in the first year i started playing at decent stakes and after about 600 hours im up 30k, still about 10k under EV I would say. Hopefully I can keep it up for the rest of the month before I move out and give me more of a cushion before i head out west.

Quote: MathExtremist

Have you looked into studios? Do they require credit checks or verified employment? You might be better off renting a room from someone. Or look into housesitting. You might be able to live in a big house in a gated community...

Yea i mentioned I wanted a studio, i have looked at them already. The cheapest is around 350-400 but really bad reviews. I looked into roomates as well, im looking at all option to cut my costs dirt cheap for the first 6 months until i get my feet wet. I wont do any house sitting though, come on lol.

Thanks mcallister and bill. Ill keep those places in mind.

Quote: billryan

Folks should remember there are 4.3 weeks in a month, so a $200 weekly isn't $800 a month. I looked at plenty of $650 studios and they all sucked. Ten year old furniture, disgusting bathrooms, nasty parking lots.
Saw one place, Rebel Place or something that didn't seem that bad, but then realized I'd be sharing a bathroom with three other studios.
Many of the cheaper places only have public WiFi.

I would have to ask my friend at Bally's, but I don't think his $200-400-600 Las Vegas quotes were for furnished monthlies. I think he was talking about unfurnished apartments.

A gambling friend was renting a $200 weekly in Vegas near a good casino (until last month).

----
In areas other than Vegas,
one friend currently rents a room in a house for $300/month.

For 1-2 years, I was renting a $550/month room in very nice $400,000 house (Something which would be $2-3 million in Los Angeles, San Francisco, or San Diego).
The room came with no furniture. I paid for my own bed, bookcases, TV, etc...

-----
Living expenses do not need to be that high for a single "gambler" with no kids ($250/month + gas):

Storage unit: $40/month (My Vegas unit used to be $25/month).
Cell phone: $30/month.
Car insurance: $30/month.
Car registration: $10/month ($120/yr).
AAA: $5/month.
Haircuts & Laundry: $30/month.
Housing: Free at casinos
Food: Free at casinos
Tips: $100/month for rooms/food at casinos.
Gas: This could be the big one.

Medical: Just pay cash.
Before Obamacare, I had BlueShield coverage for $49-125/month.

Add $2,000-5,000+/year for unexpected expenses (or fixing a used car).

-----
I met many up-and-coming poker players who had no experience trying to balance a budget, or manage living expenses.
In their hometowns, they would make $20K-40K-60K, and figure they could hit it big in Vegas.

Pretty soon they'd be working a regular job to pay the bills, because poker alone couldn't cover all their expenses.

Trying to net $100K after expenses & taxes is not easy.
If you have crazy-ass expenses & don't understand tax law, you might need to gross $400K to net $100K.

There are plenty of people who gross $100K, but have zero left each year. Bankroll doesn't move. The "break-even gambler".

Quote: ZenKinG

I wont do any house sitting though, come on lol.

Some people "mansion sit".

If you have good taste, mansions sell better when they are actively lived in.
And some people have multiple residences around the world, so they need someone to take care of the places.

Very comfortable digs!

Quote: mamat

Some people "mansion sit".

If you have good taste, mansions sell better when they are actively lived in.
And some people have multiple residences around the world, so they need someone to take care of the places.

Very comfortable digs!

Not for me. Also i've looked into the idea of renting a room in a very nice house, but for me to leave my parents house only to move in with another family doesnt look right, they might think to themselves like i hate them or something idk just feels weird.

The hope is to find a dirt cheap studio in a not so bad area. Safety of area is important only because of the amount of cash that I will have on me all the time, i cant risk the idea of someone breaking into my room and stealing half my bankroll.

Where does one find car insurance for $30 a month?

Quote: billryan

My best advice would be to pick up the LVA and ACG coupon books and plan on staying a week or two in spots like the El Cortez using logo coupons while you look.

Six years ago, El Cortez used to be $8-10/night. IMO, the rooms (2.5*) are much nicer than you might expect from the casino areas.
(1) On Orbitz, buy two nights, get one free. (2) Stay 2 nights from internet purchase, get 2 nights next month free - good on expensive weekends. (3) Coupon book had $5 match play, $5 FP, $0.50 keno discount.
...15 years ago, Ogden House had smelly $19 rooms, but it's been remodeled into the Cabana Suites now.

These days with all the resort fees. Everything is different.

El Cortez is still my go-to place on weekdays if I have to pay cash.
There are some hostels in Vegas. One even has a pool. You might need a passport or out-of-state/out-of-country ID.
I used to book hostels on some expensive weekends.

Use (1) eBates (2) Orbitz ...to earn extra dollars from your paid hotel stays. Orbitz even gives you $20 extra fox Xmas or other special occasions.
(3) Google "orbitz discounts" to find good offers. The best coupons are $50 off 2-days, or $100 off 3-4 days. Sometimes the stay is free except for fees.
(4) Priceline is often 30% of lowest internet rates, if rooms are available. I haven't used it in Las Vegas for years. There are places which teach you how to bid/rebid for the lowest price possible. Get a disposable debit card, run it down to $5, use it to book rooms.

There are on-line discussion groups for travelers where you can learn how to reduce (1) hotel costs (2) car rentals (3) airfares (4) food.

Never mind. I just read the rest of your post. Free room and board at casinos. Got it.

Quote: ZenKinG

Safety of area is important only because of the amount of cash that I will have on me all the time, i cant risk the idea of someone breaking into my room and stealing half my bankroll.

Bank safe deposit box. Sometimes free if you have enough money in a checking/savings account (or open a business account).

I have a free safe deposit box with Chase.

Quote: billryan

Where does one find car insurance for $30 a month?

Depends on age and location.

I've used State Farm, AAA, and Geico.

When I had $300/year in Virginia with Geico, I moved to Los Angeles & Geico quoted me $2,000/yr. But AAA was competitive.

I don't get into accidents, so I ask for minimum liability coverage.

So what are the best areas in Vegas for an affordable price? Im trying to make a list here. So far I got Spring Valley.

Quote: ZenKinG

So what are the best areas in Vegas for an affordable price? Im trying to make a list here. So far I got Spring Valley.

You probably won't take my advice but if I didn't have a wife and house paid off along with my 2 cars this is what I would do. I have had friends live at The Emerald Suites. The one on paradise and twain is decent. The rent was about 700 a month which includes everything. Get a corner room on the third floor. Don't talk to anyone and keep to yourself with a low profile. Not the best area but I had a friend live there for years coming and going with 10k to 20k all the time and never any trouble. Now after you build up plays it isn't hard to stay in the casinos free all the time. I could stay at the four queens right now for about 3 months on my card comp alone. budget suites and emerald not the best but pretty clean... Furnished with full kitchen and bath.

Unless the law was recently changed, it is illegal for a casino to allow a guest to stay more than thirty days in a row. They are not licensed as a boarding house. That's why the extended stay hotels don't offer gambling.

Quote: billryan

Unless the law was recently changed, it is illegal for a casino to allow a guest to stay more than thirty days in a row. They are not licensed as a boarding house. That's why the extended stay hotels don't offer gambling.

What a useless post. Not that it is incorrect but you just do a loop like in anything else... Week at the d over to 4 queens another few free days at golden gate over to the nugget if you know how to work that place, down to the el Cortel for your monthly free tournament and now back to the d or go to sams town for awhile or up to the strip.... Mix in Arizona Charlie's Decatur as well... It pays to play full pay over there for the free rooms alone but they give you cash... and food as well. Easy enough to get free rooms at the Fremont just like the rest oh and the Cal and Main Street too.I could live downtown forever if I wanted to these days.

Also if your worried about the area just buy a few guns. Easy enough to do. I carry a shotgun in my trunk and compact 45 in my center compartment in my car. Many assault weapons at home if I can get there 😄. Not a lot of support on this forum about guns. I seen a thread about how Axel said he never seen anyone open carry in Vegas in 20 years. I have😉

Before anyone takes your advice seriously, I suggest they look at the reviews of the Emerald Suites on Travel Advisor. Nine out of ten give it a One star, with almost everyone of them complaining of bedbugs or roaches, or both. Yet, of every place you could pick in Vegas, this was your choice.
Now you want him living out of a suitcase moving every three days, even though it takes a month or two to begin getting these offers.
What's next? A schedule for the best dumpster dives?

I suggest spending $300 extra a month for a nicer more convenient safer location. If $300 extra a month is going to make or break you it's probably a bad idea.

If you're planning on playing downtown . I'm not sure about the crime in surrounding areas but this Looks like you drive directly to the parking garage and everything is gated. https://www.forrent.com/apartment-community-profile/999909346

Come live Downtown in a new quality community, at an affordable price. We offer studio, one and two bedroom homes, each with their own unique location and design, within walking distance of the Freemont Street Experience.

• 1 bedroom floor plans have a private balcony.

• Full kitchen and microwave.

• Nine foot ceilings with ceiling fan.

• Common Area balconies in every floor.

• Convenient laundry rooms on every floor.

• Accessible elevators.

• Fitness center opened 24 hours.

• Swimming pool oasis.

• Courtyard with barbeques.

• 24 hour a day security with guard and cameras.**

• Secure parking garage.**

• Conveniently located by many employers, RTC terminal, I-15 and 95.

t.


Rent includes:
AC and Heater
Power
Water
Sewage
Trash
Centurylink Cable
Land Line local phone with voice mail.


Optional Amenities include:

National Long Distance (on the Land Line) --- $5/month

DSL Internet --- $20/month

Vending Machines --- $1 and up per item.


Rental Units:

Studio --- $650/month

1 Bedroom --- $742/month

2 Bedroom --- starting at $891/month


Requirements:

Leases are 6 or 12 months. Bad credit OK except for evictions on your record.

$30 application fee per adult.

$200 deposit. This deposit is cut in half for Seniors and it's completely free for veterans.

I looked at that, it wasn't a terrible option. Studio was really small, especially the bathroom. Neighborhood isn't great, but not terrible either. In NY, we call the private balconies fire escapes.
I'd go for the one bedroom over the studio. Nice way to get your beak wet. Six month lease is good, but I'd be a little concerned as people who are not going to be there long tend not to care much about keeping g the place up.

Quote: monet0412

What a useless post. Not that it is incorrect but you just do a loop like in anything else... Week at the d over to 4 queens another few free days at golden gate over to the nugget if you know how to work that place, down to the el Cortel for your monthly free tournament and now back to the d or go to sams town for awhile or up to the strip.... Mix in Arizona Charlie's Decatur as well... It pays to play full pay over there for the free rooms alone but they give you cash... and food as well. Easy enough to get free rooms at the Fremont just like the rest oh and the Cal and Main Street too.I could live downtown forever if I wanted to these days.

Also if your worried about the area just buy a few guns. Easy enough to do. I carry a shotgun in my trunk and compact 45 in my center compartment in my car. Many assault weapons at home if I can get there 😄. Not a lot of support on this forum about guns. I seen a thread about how Axel said he neve.r seen anyone open carry in Vegas in 20 years. I have😉

Well I don't know about NEVER, however, it's rare IMO. I think i seen a youtube video of some young idiot kid walking down the street here with an assault rifle just to get the cops attention.