Blackjack: Fun anymore?

I love blackjack, and I think we can all agree that it is the best table game for players. However, some of things posted here and my own experiences recently have got me thinking: do people find this game fun anymore? I don't know about Las Vegas, but at the regional joints it seems like everyone is either degenerate, cranky or superstitious, and the dealers are automatons. The players yell at you when you make a play that "hurts" them, or they swear up a storm when they lose two hands in a row like they've never seen that before in their life. (My favorite: "Unbelievable!" when the dealer turns over a 20. I hear that's the most common hand...) Ninety-five percent of the dealers don't do anything to make the game fun. They either make snide, sarcastic comments or say nothing. They don't care about tips or say thank you when you toke.

I just think casinos are neglecting blackjack and a great game is falling by the wayside. (I didn't even mention 6-5 payouts). No wonder the carny games are so popular and BJ revenue is dropping. (By the way, I have been winning lately so my judgment is not colored by bad luck here).

What can be done to improve?

Edit: I play quarters mostly.

A big part of the problem is the quality of dealers, and a lot of it has to do with the casino house - who is responsible for customer service.

There's still a lot of obnoxious old-school floormen rudely instructing the dealers to "dummy up and deal," where a friendly dealer who smiles and chats up the table is viewed as a problem and reprimanded. I kid you not. If a dealer hates his job, he shows it to his customers.

There are also a lot of "flea-bag" grinders who wear dealers down to that nasty point. Quite often they deserve each other.

In vegas its a mixed bag, but most places are friendly, especially if a player tips, and is friendly himself.

I play at the Mohegansun in Ct. Over the years I also play fairly regularly at the Peppermill in Reno, and the MGM, Luxor and Mandalay Bay in Vegas. You did not mention what was your minimum bet, unfortunately it matters at some establishments. I play strictly at $50 tables or go to an empty 10-15-25 and ask them to bump it up. Most importantly I say hello to the dealer, many I already know as I keep a mental list of the house dealers and/or dealers with no personality. If I am not familiar with the dealer I let them know upfront if they take care of me I will reciprocate. I make small talk as camouflage (although I enjoy making chit-chat with many of them), and once I start making my hands I take care of them.I love playing and it has been a nice part-time profitable venture. Over the years I can count on one hand when I have run into a zombie and I immediately let the floor person know.

MONEY IN YOUR POCKET, ALWAYS!

I'm usually not much for chit chat at the table, either from the dealer or the other players.
From to time, a player will do things like turn to me and say that was good (I had just gone against Basic Strategy and dodged a Nine). Also one woman became quite talkative but she was bright, attentive to the game and her advice to me was sound.

At an Indian casino, the dealers have different rules depending on who is on the floor. Often the floor is far more rude than the dealer. The problem is that its a five or ten dollar table and all the others are higher, so its a coral in which they keep the worst players. One woman didn't have her mortgage money and said that but they still let her play and the zombie dealer just stayed silent.

I prefer to avoid all the players who criticize each other. Yes, the best way to avoid that is to go to higher limit tables.

Long ago I was on a Day Boatin Florida and this one woman criticized every single item that was on her plate. After she and her friend finally came up for air, she asked me something and my response was "I'm terribly sorry, but I don't speak a word of English". It worked. I've tried it at the tables a few times too. I don't know if they are puzzled or not, but they usually just leave me alone after that line and don't seem to realize that I had just spoken to them in English.

Its the same way at the craps table: if you go to the Venetian and put two Greens on the Don't, nobody criticizes you at all. If you go to Terribles and put even one Red on the Don'ts someone opens their yap right away. If you actually shoot from the Don'ts, you can be sure they will yack at you about it. Its a combination of the casino that you go to and the level of play. If I add a bit slowly at a BJ table, its up to the dealer to take action, not a fellow player. I play against the house. He plays against the house but he seems to think he has a right to a card that was destined to be his.

I never enjoyed the game, personally, including the eight years I moonlighted as a successful low-limit counter.

I've posted elsewhere about the employment culture in Vegas casinos. Dealing blackjack is hell on earth for anyone without armor plate for skin. The crap comes flying at you from both directions--management and the customers. It's possible to maintain a friendly demeanor for a while, but at some point after some clown hits a hard 14 against your 6 showing, busts, screams and swears at you, and stomps off yelling that he's been cheated, your eyes just glaze over. And then the next day, you see your diseased mutant moron of a boss giving you and your table the fish-eye for the whole shift because your table hold was down last week. The upshot is that all you can hope for is that the dealer doesn't bite you when you sit down.

Blackjack, as a casino game, has several fundamental flaws. The worst of those is that bets only pay even money (except, of course, for a BJ). This lack of excitement repels the "gamblers" and conversely, attracts the "grinders". Due to casino rule changes (multiple decks dealt halfway through, autoshufflers, 6:5), the game is no longer beatable by the grinders: basic strategy will just ensure a long, slow slide into oblivion. Anther flaw is that the game becomes VERY boring after a while: there are only about half a dozen recurring situations, and pretty soon everything that happens during a session will have already happened several times before.

When I first learned the game, I always thought it was fundamentally unfair that when the player AND the dealer busted, the dealer won. I've since been surprised by how many players said the same thing to me. It DOES seem that if the dealer and the player reach the same outcome, the result should be a push.

One thing any given Vegas casino could do to attract extra BJ business is to deal an "old-style" single deck game with good rules, and since they are so so so so scared of counters, have a low table maximum on those games. I think people would flock to play something like a $1-25 game that was like the single-deck games in the Horseshoe 10-15 years ago. In fact, this idea is so obvious that I think there must be collusion/arm-twisting/arm-breaking among the casinos to make sure this doesn't come to pass (there have been some decent single-deck games popping their heads up recently, but NEVER with low limits--the casinos feel that the public has to PAY for good games).

I actually have the opposite problem. I play at higher limit tables ($25 usually), and the players are worse. It's like they all expect to win -- there are a surfeit of angry, mostly young males who seem to think they have the right to win or break even every session, and get angry and the other players and dealers when they don't. I play for fun, and for comps. But I am thinking of giving up the game or going down to lower limits, or just waiting until Vegas trips where I can play on good games like the Tuscany's.

It's just so tiresome. Craps is similar, too. Just too many grinders. The people at the carny games and roulette seem to be enjoying themselves. Maybe I'll switch to baccarat -- it's certainly more relaxing.

Quote: teddys

I actually have the opposite problem. I play at higher limit tables ($25 usually), and the players are worse. It's like they all expect to win -- there are a surfeit of angry, mostly young males who seem to think they have the right to win or break even every session, and get angry and the other players and dealers when they don't. I play for fun, and for comps. But I am thinking of giving up the game or going down to lower limits, or just waiting until Vegas trips where I can play on good games like the Tuscany's.

It's just so tiresome. Craps is similar, too. Just too many grinders. The people at the carny games and roulette seem to be enjoying themselves. Maybe I'll switch to baccarat -- it's certainly more relaxing.

I play only poker-derived table games because there's a variety of outcomes, and usually at least one decision to be made by the player after the cards are dealt. I have NEVER understood why the hell baccarat is so popular---it seems utterly mindless and boring to me.

I think that the reason that there is a surfeit of such players is that omnipresent source of social degradation, the internet. Internet kiddies are socially stunted, and they all have access to "information" such as the out-of-date assertions that blackjack is an EZ-path to effortless riches. This leads to unrealistic expectations and, upon the failure of those expectations, antisocial behavior. The fact of the matter is that most BJ games, especially outside of Vegas, and especially in Injun casinos, are unbeatable these days. I also have seen a lot of the internet poker kiddies migrating to blackjack now that the poker fish have all been caught and eaten.

Quote: only1choice

I play at the Mohegansun in Ct. Over the years I also play fairly regularly at the Peppermill in Reno, and the MGM, Luxor and Mandalay Bay in Vegas. You did not mention what was your minimum bet, unfortunately it matters at some establishments. I play strictly at $50 tables or go to an empty 10-15-25 and ask them to bump it up. Most importantly I say hello to the dealer, many I already know as I keep a mental list of the house dealers and/or dealers with no personality. If I am not familiar with the dealer I let them know upfront if they take care of me I will reciprocate. I make small talk as camouflage (although I enjoy making chit-chat with many of them), and once I start making my hands I take care of them.I love playing and it has been a nice part-time profitable venture. Over the years I can count on one hand when I have run into a zombie and I immediately let the floor person know.

MONEY IN YOUR POCKET, ALWAYS!

Are you able to get the dealers to help with the very poor penetration at Mohegan Sun?

The S17 game is actually a tad better than the 0.35361% that you get on the Wizard's calculator because they allow unlimited pair splitting.(The calculator only goes up to four hands.)

You really have to shop around for decent penetration and when you do find it, you have to cross your fingers that the relief dealer doesn't shuffle.

While I still enjoy playing Blackjack now and then, I've found that I've been playing more Spanish 21 instead. On the east coast, AC has them with S17 rules, so the house edge is better than the low limit S17 tables. Plus, since it's Spanish, you're less likely to find people yelling at you for odd plays, since people playing it run the gamut on how they play Basic strategy (with the majority following blackjack BS).

-B

Quote: toastcmu

While I still enjoy playing Blackjack now and then, I've found that I've been playing more Spanish 21 instead. On the east coast, AC has them with S17 rules, so the house edge is better than the low limit S17 tables. Plus, since it's Spanish, you're less likely to find people yelling at you for odd plays, since people playing it run the gamut on how they play Basic strategy (with the majority following blackjack BS).

-B

That's why the game is such a crusher. Regular BJBS will get you carved a new one at Spanish 21. Coupled with that is the fact that maybe 3% of the people that play the game even REALIZE that all the 10s have been removed from the shoe (the house very helpfully indicates this in 4-point type at the very bottom on the game sign, if at all).

I actually quit playing this game after one too many persons gave me a frowny face after I hit a 12 or 13 vs. the dealer's 5.

I don't get tired of blackjack because I don't play it that often; it's in my repetoire of VP and Craps. I really like Blackjack Switch however which can be found for low denominations and have a better HA than the Blackjack offered where I play.

Quote: mkl654321

That's why the game is such a crusher. Regular BJBS will get you carved a new one at Spanish 21. I actually quit playing this game after one too many persons gave me a frowny face after I hit a 12 or 13 vs. the dealer's 5.

The nice part in my observations is that most people playing BJ/Spanish 21 in Atlantic City actually know basic strategy, so I don't get as many frowny faces. Going to Vegas after playing in AC for a while opened my eyes on that one. Couldn't believe the difference. Most of the time I get them are the 14's versus 2/3.

-B

I love Spanish 21! I used to play it in Ontario for the longest time. It was a very good game for me. Most people only care about the match the dealer bet, but they know enough strategy to hit 12s and 13s. The worst play was hitting the 8-6s against the 4-5-6, or the 8-7 against the 2-3. But limits were so low nobody really cared. Wow, that was a fun game...

Toast -- what do you mean the difference between AC and Vegas? As far as I know, none of the Vegas casinos have the good rules for S21.

I think I am going to shift most of my play over to Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em. I get more of a kick out of the game, the players are more fun, and the stakes are about the same ($30 when you have a big bet out). Plus, I get comped better.

Quote: teddys

I think I am going to shift most of my play over to Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em. I get more of a kick out of the game, the players are more fun, and the stakes are about the same ($30 when you have a big bet out). Plus, I get comped better.

Oh man, Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em is a blast. I'm pretty low stakes, though, usually sticking to $5 or $10 blackjack, so Texas Hold 'Em usually isn't a good idea for someone with my bankroll to play. Busting out my entire $100 or $200 for the night in a half hour can make my trip a night of watching my friends play other games. I still risk it occasionally, though.

The casino does seem to comp a lot better compared to similarly-staked (i.e. $25) blackjack games, and the HE on that game isn't awful either, like it can be with other higher-comped carnival games.

As far as the main question goes: I started my so far short gambling hobby with solely blackjack. Since then, however, I've shifted away to the other table games, and discovered that craps is a lot of fun. Blackjack can just feel real mechanical at times, I don't know. The dealers don't seem very invested either, which can make it kind of boring too.

I really like Pai Gow Poker, though. The game is slower, which I don't mind (heck, with my low bankroll it means I get to play longer), but that also seems to make the other players and the dealer a lot more conservative. And I do feel like there is strategy involved; not every hand has a clear-cut way to set.

EZ Pai Gow is probably the best. No fifty cent chips? Holy crap! Awesome! Why do they even bother with regular Pai Gow?!

I've never been really much of a BJ player. I just don't enjoy the game.

But I do dislike players, and often dealers, who like to criticize other players. I've written about the flack I get for not playing the sucker bets in TCP (didn't get as much in Pai Gow Poker, though). That can ruin a playing session even when you win.

The problem specific to BJ, as I see it, is that the game is not a series of independent events the way roulette or craps are. When playing from a shoe, your actions in one hand affect subsequent hands. But that doens't matter unless you know beforehand what order the cards are in, which nobody can know without fixing the shoe.

For next trip I think I'll try the electronic version of TCP. There are such versions of BJ, but of course the rules are bound to suck even more. One advantage of Rapid Craps is that other players can't see you betting on the Don't.

To be honest with myself, I've just had to come to grips with the fact that for me, gaming overall just isn't as exciting as it once was. But then again, I guess everything can get to be a little bit boring if you do it enough. I guess I should count my blessings that, at least, addiction isn't a problem for me.

That said, I do like talking about the games, the theory, how to best play, etc. And I do like going to gaming destinations to walk the properties, eat at the restaurants, see the shows, etc.

But the actual sitting down and playing ... outside of a big win or big loss, or some sort of interesting story, it's almost like having to work on my vacation.

Quote: Nareed

The problem specific to BJ, as I see it, is that the game is not a series of independent events the way roulette or craps are. When playing from a shoe, your actions in one hand affect subsequent hands. But that doens't matter unless you know beforehand what order the cards are in, which nobody can know without fixing the shoe..

True. And you understand it, and I understand it, and everyone else on this board understands it. So why can't "they" understand it?!: When I double down on a A-8 against a 6, and take a 10 and the dealer pulls a three to make a hand, it's not my fault. If it was reversed, you'd be thanking my a$$.

My comment regarding AC versus Vegas was with respect to basic strategy knowledge. For whatever reason, players in Ac know basic strategy very well, and you don't get the comments when you hit a 12v3 - even at a 10 table.

I rarely play Spanish 21 in Vegas, since the rules are not as good.

Pai gow is my game of choice these days.
-B

" *&!@%, you took my card again!"
"If God (or whatever other force you think watches over this game) wanted you to have that card, He would have put it one card deeper in the deck. I am sitting here, was dealt this hand, so I was fated to take that card all along, making it... MY card."
" *&!@% "

REPLY TO BENBAKDOFF:

The only thing the dealers do for me is use large picks when shuffling and sometimes they will pay me on my total of 22 although it makes me nervous when they do that. I have been trying to get around the penetration problem by playing by myself one hand and going to two hands upon advantage.

Quote: teddys

True. And you understand it, and I understand it, and everyone else on this board understands it. So why can't "they" understand it?!: When I double down on a A-8 against a 6, and take a 10 and the dealer pulls a three to make a hand, it's not my fault. If it was reversed, you'd be thanking my a$$.

Mostly because they play by superstition and the seat of the pants.

That in itself is not bad, if you can afford it. But it may bring up unpleasant behaviors, such as blaming other players for the random results of random events.

Superstitions are powerful things. The refusal to pander to superstitions is also powerful. That's where the problem lies. One time in highschool a guy and I nearly came to blows over his refusal to be handed a salt shaker.

"I'm not superstitious. I'm a little stitious, though."

- Michael Scott

I've been playing more poker now. I don't want to play at quarters to get the good rules, and I can't stand playing at crappy rules for $5 or $10. But I suck it up and still play at the $25 tables sometimes. I always have a good time when I'm playing. A lot of times it is up to me to make the table entertaining. I'll talk service industry lingo to the dealer, talk about insider Vegas stuff, something to draw them out.

I like Spanish 21 too. I played at Casino Royale until they took them out. Then I learned how to play Switch. I usually try and educate the fun people at a table to correct play. They never mind. I'll show them the basic strategy card. Even the dealers have usually not seen a Switch strategy card. I've had dealers want to look at my card multiple times during a session to see if a player did it "correctly".

If there are only butt holes at a Switch table with me I get just as much entertainment out of watching them play incorrectly and getting upset at my "wrong" plays.

I rarely go to local casinos anymore. It helps that there just are none in Texas close to me. When on vacation visiting family I will go if they all want to but I know what to expect. It is certainly a lot more people there hoping for that win rather than the feeling in a lot of Vegas that they are just on vacation and want to enjoy themselves.

$25 tables at a local casino are even worse. Every single person at a local casino at this level is extremely serious. I like chatting with others. The BSing is at least half the entertainment for me.


Vegas is hit or miss. I'm not one to go on $100 tables so I can't speak to those. My last trip I was probably 50/50 in getting a good enjoyable 5/10 table. Probably about the same for $25 tables, maybe slightly better. I've gotten pretty good at picking out the tables I want to play at though. Generally a table with what seems to be 3-4 friends that know each other is going to be what I'm more interested in. A table with 3-4 people and there are chairs between each one probably won't be something I'd like.


Blackjack is pretty easy to switch tables though. Also a nice bonus in Vegas as the next casino is a 5 minute walk down the street. I have yet to have a craps table be so bad that I wasn't having fun. There will always be bad people, I just haven't run into it myself.

Lots of good comments here. My quick additions:

* I play mostly the nickel tables and I've seen all kinds of dealers and players. I mostly tune them out.
* I'm surprised by the number of people who think of BJ as a social game. I play to win, to kill time, and to observe others - in roughly that order. I say very little, because there's rarely anything of value to say.
* I've never played the sucker games because the house edge at almost all of them ranges from bad to ruinous. This matters a lot to me.
* The one exception to the sucker game category is blackjack switch, which I do enjoy more than the base version. I dislike the fact that more and more joints are moving away from the ability to switch to a blackjack, and the game has more swings than I'd like on my bankroll.
* Craps is more fun, more social, and I've had better luck there, so I've been gravitating more and more toward it on my trips.

from mkl654321:

Quote:

Blackjack, as a casino game, has several fundamental flaws. The worst of those is that bets only pay even money (except, of course, for a BJ). This lack of excitement repels the "gamblers" and conversely, attracts the "grinders". Due to casino rule changes (multiple decks dealt halfway through, autoshufflers, 6:5), the game is no longer beatable by the grinders: basic strategy will just ensure a long, slow slide into oblivion. Anther flaw is that the game becomes VERY boring after a while: there are only about half a dozen recurring situations, and pretty soon everything that happens during a session will have already happened several times before.

When I first learned the game, I always thought it was fundamentally unfair that when the player AND the dealer busted, the dealer won. I've since been surprised by how many players said the same thing to me. It DOES seem that if the dealer and the player reach the same outcome, the result should be a push.

One thing any given Vegas casino could do to attract extra BJ business is to deal an "old-style" single deck game with good rules, and since they are so so so so scared of counters, have a low table maximum on those games. I think people would flock to play something like a $1-25 game that was like the single-deck games in the Horseshoe 10-15 years ago. In fact, this idea is so obvious that I think there must be collusion/arm-twisting/arm-breaking among the casinos to make sure this doesn't come to pass (there have been some decent single-deck games popping their heads up recently, but NEVER with low limits--the casinos feel that the public has to PAY for good games).

A single deck game with good rules but low limits would certainly attract low-level grinders. Within a week, that game would be filled with counters and counter wannabes - not the clientele a casino cares to attract, unless it's to bar or destroy them. I also happen to think the bigger bettors SHOULD get the best games - they're risking more, after all, so why shouldn't their potential reward also be bigger?

The rules may seem unfair, but I think of it as the dealer and myself playing two different games with the same deck. He has a natural edge with bust/bust = win. I get 3:2 for blackjacks (those other payouts do not exist in my mind), plus some options that bring me close to even.

Quote: fremont4ever

* I'm surprised by the number of people who think of BJ as a social game. I play to win, to kill time, and to observe others - in roughly that order. I say very little, because there's rarely anything of value to say.

I agree. Playing blackjack is not that much fun for me. It's like going to work - I'm there to make a little money. One of the Wizard's rules of gambling is "thou shalt expect to lose". Well, I go prepared to lose, but I go intending to win. I never have figured out what is supposed to be entertaining about sitting next to a bunch of strangers (some of them quite strange) in a smokey room with no sunlight and losing money.

In the last 35 months the following changes have happened in the table games in Nevada (cumulative percentage)
Strip baccarat +18.3%
Strip blackjack -34.0%
Strip other table games -23.3%
Strip slots -20.7%

Non-strip baccarat is fairly minor game
Non strip blackjack -30.6%
Non strip other table games -24.5%
Non strip slots -21.9%

One of the topics of discussion over the past year has been
why has blackjack dropped so much in comparison with other table games.

Quote: fremont4ever

Lots of good comments here. My quick additions:

* I'm surprised by the number of people who think of BJ as a social game. I play to win, to kill time, and to observe others - in roughly that order. I say very little, because there's rarely anything of value to say.
* Craps is more fun, more social, and I've had better luck there, so I've been gravitating more and more toward it on my trips.

I agree that craps is more fun and I'd probably only play that if it wasn't for the extremely wild swings with the way I play. However a BJ game can be just as entertaining. Obviously not all the time, but I've been on plenty of tables where it was clearly the people at the table that kept me there rather than the game.

Two random times that come to mind from my last trip

3 college guys were at a $5 table at Oshea's I think. Even if I didn't say anything, just their commentary alone with the dealer and between themselves was great entertainment for me. I think I stayed at the table for ~2 hours longer than I expected.

At Caesers there were 2 women on a 25 table that just retired. They were on vacation, they knew it and took full advantage of it. They were a blast to BS with while they were there. Only reason I left that table was they left to head to some show.


I will emphasis again that this generally only happens to me in a place like Vegas. 99% of tables I head to in local casinos are somber affairs and everyone is there to hopefully make $20. Craps at local casinos though has had a much different feeling for me although it is much more limited sample size in my experience.

Quote: fremont4ever

A single deck game with good rules but low limits would certainly attract low-level grinders. Within a week, that game would be filled with counters and counter wannabes - not the clientele a casino cares to attract, unless it's to bar or destroy them. I also happen to think the bigger bettors SHOULD get the best games - they're risking more, after all, so why shouldn't their potential reward also be bigger?

If that game had a low table maximum (like $25), the counters wouldn't bother with it. The old Horseshoe used to have dozens of $2 minimum single-deck games. They were never swarmed by counters because anyone betting more than ten bucks a hand on those table stood out like a sore thumb. No self-respecting counter would shoehorn himself in between Ferd and Thelma and get dealt two hands from a single deck at a full table, especially if he couldn't bet any more then $25 or $50.

As far as the counter wannabes--the casino WANTS them. There's probably no more valuable customer than the person who THINKS he can beat the house.

Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

To be honest with myself, I've just had to come to grips with the fact that for me, gaming overall just isn't as exciting as it once was. But then again, I guess everything can get to be a little bit boring if you do it enough. I guess I should count my blessings that, at least, addiction isn't a problem for me.

That said, I do like talking about the games, the theory, how to best play, etc. And I do like going to gaming destinations to walk the properties, eat at the restaurants, see the shows, etc.

But the actual sitting down and playing ... outside of a big win or big loss, or some sort of interesting story, it's almost like having to work on my vacation.

I am basically in the same boat as you... i will often only play the dice for an hour, have a bit of fun, but then look for an excuse to quit. I seem to enjoy walking around and being in the gaming environment more then the actual playing sometimes.

Quote: soulhunt79

I will emphasis again that this generally only happens to me in a place like Vegas. 99% of tables I head to in local casinos are somber affairs and everyone is there to hopefully make $20.

I totally agree. #1 goal is to win. Next is have fun with others. And you are right the local and indian casinos are horrible. I've had better social experiences at funerals. Vegas is a good time.