Minimum Blackjack Game SCORE Desired

Hi all. I am new to the forum and excited to be a part of a community of APs. I am a green chip card counter who plays part time outside of my regular job.

Just curious what SCORE (blackjack attack number developed by Don S) is considered acceptable for most serious blackjack players? I personally will not even think about a game less than 30, and I am ideally looking for 50 plus. Sadly though less than a quarter of Blackjack games probably meet those minimum requirements. H17 AND 1.5 to 2 decks cut off a shoe is forcing people to reconsider if the game is playable. A lot of variance and headache for not much reward.

SCORE is a very small part of what determines whether a game is playable for me. I don't mean to dismiss SCORE, as it is a valuable tool for comparing different games. But there are other things that are much more important to me, like tolerance level of that particular casino. I mean a high SCORE means little if you can't get much money down before drawing heat. By definition, the games at El Cortez have a pretty high score, but most players can't make much money there. :/

Also, a game with a mediocre score which I am able to play heads up with a quick dealer is much more valuable me than a game with a better score, but that I will get far fewer rounds in the same time frame.

Most of my AP is non-BJ, so I can be a bit more strict with what I play, since I'm not playing BJ every day grinding out many hours. If a game doesn't have a high SCORE or hourly and low risk etc etc....I generally won't play it....well, I won't go out of my way to go play it, but if I'm at a store with poor pen dealer or sweaty boss, I'll play with a lower score. But I play almost exclusively pitch games.

I don't remember what the SCOREs are for all the games/conditions I play, but I generally play with a SCORE of 100. With super good conditions, I think it may be 115-120.

I think most CCs play games in the 60-80 SCORE range.



But it's ultimately up to you. Run the sims and look at all the different outputs. Then think about it, "Can I get away with this spread at this store? Am I willing to put up with this kind of variance? Is it 'worth it' enough for me to play this way?" Some people, like KJ, (I think) are fine with variance. I on the other hand, don't want an hourly SD of $4k to make $50/hour.

Quote: RS

Some people, like KJ, (I think) are fine with variance.

I think you are reading the other site too much, RS. lol. Someone over there always says I am ok with variance, as he promotes his super-duper, non-linear thing-a-ma-bob. You know, the greatest system ever that wins 10 times the amount with smaller spreads and NO variance. No losing what-so-ever. Just like a job...every few hours you take out your hourly. :/

Unfortunately blackjack card counting doesn't work that way. There IS variance involved. I have accepted that, but I am not "fine" with it. I knew that before I ever started. Every single legit book on card counting talks about the large bankroll necessary to withstand the wild swings. And with worse conditions in recent years, those swings get wilder and the bankroll necessary grows larger.

BUT I wouldn't say I am fine with variance. That is like saying you are fine with losing and really....who is? This time one year ago, I was just finishing my worst year in a decade as far as blackjack results. $27,000 profit vs expectation (EV) of more than 3 times that amount. And during most of the second half of that year, I b*tched & moaned and cried like a baby.

So no I am not "fine' with variance. It's part of the occupation, much like backoffs and odd hours. I accept that and deal with it as best I can, but definitely not "fine" with it.

Quote: kewlj

I think you are reading the other site too much, RS. lol. Someone over there always says I am ok with variance, as he promotes his super-duper, non-linear thing-a-ma-bob. You know, the greatest system ever that wins 10 times the amount with smaller spreads and NO variance. No losing what-so-ever. Just like a job...every few hours you take out your hourly.

"Those" people don't leave their computers long enough to even enter a casino let alone play the "count system" they've supposedly devised. When you have the amount of time to type thirty or more 5 paragraph posts a day, you don't have time to win money in a casino. Don't even engage them.

I guess people think I am "OK" with variance because I play a variety of games, double deck, 6 deck, even a few 8 deckers, with really good pen and I play a variety of spreads, ramps and max bets, all which "invites" or leads to variance. But that is not by choice. That is what is available.

I wish I could play all decent double deck games. That's what I was anticipating when I moved to Vegas, only to find out in short order that most double deck games are counter traps, rendering them unplayable, for someone interested in any kind of longevity in this town.

In the absence of that, I would like to play all 6 deck games cutting off half deck or 3/4 deck. There's a few of these in my rotation, but not the number I need for a full rotation to insure any kind of longevity. So I add in 6 deck games with a deck cut off. That's a few more games, but still no where near enough.

So, to fill out my rotation, I play a few good and tolerant double deck, a few really good 6 deck, a few pretty good 6 deck and some mediocre 6 deck and even a couple 8 deck games. Then you add in different tolerance levels, meaning spread and max bets for these games, and boom...instant MEGA variance.

Kind of funny, when I started out, my first 5+ year in Atlantic City, there wasn't such a variety of games. There was no double deck games. Everything was 6 or 8 deck games with the same 2 decks cut off. (There was a 4 deck game at one casino for a short time, but that became almost like a card counter convention....too hot for me).

So I attacked all my games in the same manner. Same spread. Same max bet. And really I experienced a whole lot less variance back in those days. A much smaller win rate, but a whole lot less variance. Between the two scenarios, I'll take the much higher win rate and deal with the variance the best I can. :/

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

"Those" people don't leave their computers long enough to even enter a casino let alone play the "count system" they've supposedly devised. When you have the amount of time to type thirty or more 5 paragraph posts a day, you don't have time to win money in a casino. Don't even engage them.

Seems an odd statement from someone with 7,960 posts.:) (Sorry Shack, couldn’t resist.)

Over a decade back, a forum declared war against all other forums. That forum is now gone without a single post archived. I detest forum wars. Most of us in the AP community realize that casinos should be the focus of our spleen. Spreading misleading statements about other fora or players aides no one but the casinos. Please let us keep the community together. We have chosen a tough foe with political power, massive funds, the ability to write the rules, and control who plays. Fighting one another is not the answer.

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” - Philo of Alexandria

Have a happy and prosperous new year,
Norm

Quote: kewlj

BUT I wouldn't say I am fine with variance. That is like saying you are fine with losing and really....who is? This time one year ago, I was just finishing my worst year in a decade as far as blackjack results. $27,000 profit vs expectation (EV) of more than 3 times that amount. And during most of the second half of that year, I b*tched & moaned and cried like a baby.

This is why I'm starting to believe being a professional gambler is not possible for most of us. Including the very best of us. The more income I earn away from the casino, the less I care about variance -- and at times even prefer it -- which helps increase profits and minimize time required.

Quote: RS

Most of my AP is non-BJ, so I can be a bit more strict with what I play, since I'm not playing BJ every day grinding out many hours. If a game doesn't have a high SCORE or hourly and low risk etc etc....

As an occasional blackjack player I see it as almost the opposite. All I can about is if I can overcome the house edge within a few minutes without having to go over $50 max bet. Other than that, rules and penetration are meaningless. If I'm at the casino anyway and wouldn't be bothered by losing $200 and 30 minutes I'll sit down and play. But most days I would just rather spend the time at the sportsbook, buffet, library, or gym.

Quote: QFIT

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” - Philo of Alexandria

Have a happy and prosperous new year,
Norm

There is no gambling forum that is immune to idiocy and posers.

I am personally very grateful to Norm for all the great work he has done. There are very few in this industry who are just outright generous and Norm stands alone when it comes to the blackjack card counting information he has developed through his own research and made available to the public for free.

This is why I don't count cards any longer. Too long of a wait for a miniscule edge with high variance and the use of a bet spread. Not to mention the aggravation of other players (and yes I know the joke of others at the table).

I stand in the shadow of giants, the shadows scare me and I run or dash here and there.
Wherever I stop and stand, take a breath, I find I'm still standing in the shadow of giants.....

Quote: kewlj

I think you are reading the other site too much, RS. lol. Someone over there always says I am ok with variance, as he promotes his super-duper, non-linear thing-a-ma-bob. You know, the greatest system ever that wins 10 times the amount with smaller spreads and NO variance. No losing what-so-ever. Just like a job...every few hours you take out your hourly. :/

Unfortunately blackjack card counting doesn't work that way. There IS variance involved. I have accepted that, but I am not "fine" with it. I knew that before I ever started. Every single legit book on card counting talks about the large bankroll necessary to withstand the wild swings. And with worse conditions in recent years, those swings get wilder and the bankroll necessary grows larger.

BUT I wouldn't say I am fine with variance. That is like saying you are fine with losing and really....who is? This time one year ago, I was just finishing my worst year in a decade as far as blackjack results. $27,000 profit vs expectation (EV) of more than 3 times that amount. And during most of the second half of that year, I b*tched & moaned and cried like a baby.

So no I am not "fine' with variance. It's part of the occupation, much like backoffs and odd hours. I accept that and deal with it as best I can, but definitely not "fine" with it.

I didn't mean it quite like that. I mean everyone has different requirements for the games they play. I'm only willing to play strong games because I don't play much BJ. Some people like SCG are more willing to play sh***y games (bad rules bad pen) with high tolerance and a good enough hourly. Others are in the middle (like KJ, I suspect), who aren't only looking to play really strong games (1-10+ spreads on 80% pen DD), because they need a large rotation of games to play.

Which is why I said -- it comes down to the individual. For some, SCORE of 20 is playable. For others, a SCORE of 70 is unplayable.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

This is why I don't count cards any longer. Too long of a wait for a miniscule edge with high variance and the use of a bet spread. Not to mention the aggravation of other players (and yes I know the joke of others at the table).

Yes but the edges get slimmer and slimmer the higher you want to bet. The frequency of high EV to high bets don't come that often so sometimes its good to find a

EDIT

last post 2015

Anyway..... it's good to find some low +EV stuff to do in the downtime. Poker is available 24/7 (of course conditions vary), +EV video poker, and of course the topic of this thread, counting cards. Another one I almost forgot is sports betting.

Eventually you'll come across a BIG play (ROI of infinity, which I won't be discussing here) that takes up all your time for a week or so, or however long the promotion is running.

Welcome to the forum Norm! I hope you'll stick around a while.

For the benefit of others, Norm goes by the handle QFIT and is the creator of Casino Vérité blackjack software. Norm is perhaps the greatest blackjack mathematician out there. Norm's numbers are something everyone trusts and often quoted in the event of a disagreement between other blackjack writers.

Not only that, but he is a very approachable and nice guy. I've asked Norm for help many times through the years and he has never asked for anything in return. I think I could say his reward is the love of the game and the blackjack community.

I'm proud to say we have some big names in the world of gambling as members of this forum and am happy to add Norm's name (QFIT) to that list.

Quote: Wizard

Welcome to the forum Norm! I hope you'll stick around a while.

I agree 100%. But he joined in 2010 and has posted before.

Quote: Wizard

Welcome to the forum Norm! I hope you'll stick around a while.

For the benefit of others, Norm goes by the handle QFIT and is the creator of Casino Vérité blackjack software. Norm is perhaps the greatest blackjack mathematician out there.

Not only that, but he is a very approachable and nice guy.

Norm's position as a top blackjack mathematician...undeniable.

Norm's software...invaluable. It has allowed some of us that aren't real 'heavy' math type guys to still experience success at card counting. I wonder how many player like myself, owe most of their success to Norm via his software products.

A nice and approachable guy: Mileage may vary. lol.

As some that participate on multiple sites may know, Norm and I are not the best of 'pals'. But I do welcome his participate and hope he sticks around and participates more. :)

I make a post every five years whether I need to or not. :)

Thanks guys.

Thanks for the advice. Heat and hands per hour is huge. Heat is usually higher with a better game, so ultimately whatever games get the most lifetime ev matters.

Quote: kewlj

As some that participate on multiple sites may know, Norm and I are not the best of 'pals'. But I do welcome his participate and hope he sticks around and participates more. :)

The fact that people give bad advice on Norm's site and Norm does not police that advice does not reflect on Norm's credibility or generosity.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

"Those" people don't leave their computers long enough to even enter a casino let alone play the "count system" they've supposedly devised. When you have the amount of time to type thirty or more 5 paragraph posts a day, you don't have time to win money in a casino. Don't even engage them.

Exactly!

That one poster feels compelled to respond to every question posted, whether he knows the answer or not. If not, he'll make something up. For example, I recall a post where someone asked about opportunities near Portland, OR. This poster promptly chimed in that there are no good casinos in OR. The original poster answered he didn't ask about OR casinos and T3 responded with something that made it obvious he'd never been to the area. If he had, he would have known there are 4 playable casinos in WA, about 15 miles north of Portland.

Besides never leaving his computer fantasyland, I don't think he's ever left Pennsylvania.

Exactly!

That one poster thinks he is an everything blackjack expert and goes from forum to forum claiming that other posters are attempting to scam people simply because his personal experience doesn't match what other posters say is a problem. To outright state that he knows the effect of error rates without ever having studied such phenomena is a problem.

Now, let's get back to talking about AP and describing one's own personal experiences and knowledge without attempting to lambaste and insult anyone that dares to disagree. Let us drop this embarrassing episode.

Norm, maybe the solution is to limit the number of posts by any individual to a max. of 5 per day. That would dampen the endless pissing matches.

It is my fault. I allowed a poster to violate the rules of my forum for too long because he was once a valuable poster -- when earlier he posted about his personal experiences in a narrow, but useful, area and before he started believing he was an overall expert in the field.

The poster that has caused the damage will no longer be allowed to act in this manner on my forum. His two attempts to continue at bj21 led to humiliation. He must learn his limitations and stop such comments here as they are damaging the community and unfairly accuse other posters of malevolent acts and motivations.

Just as I have done for over a decade (at great cost to myself), I just want APs to stop attacking one-another and realize that it is the casinos that we must beat. I just want this to stop -- and your post continuing the insults didn't help.

Seriously, why can't people simply express opinions without accusing those that disagree with them of malicious intent?

Quote: QFIT

That one poster thinks he is an everything blackjack expert and goes from forum to forum claiming that other posters are attempting to scam people simply because his personal experience doesn't match what other posters say is a problem. To outright state that he knows the effect of error rates without ever having studied such phenomena is a problem.

Now, let's get back to talking about AP and describing one's own personal experiences and knowledge without attempting to lambaste and insult anyone that dares to disagree. Let us drop this embarrassing episode.

Do you realize your second paragraph completely contradicts your first paragraph?

Quote: QFIT

It is my fault. I allowed a poster to violate the rules of my forum for too long because he was once a valuable poster -- when earlier he posted about his personal experiences in a narrow, but useful, area and before he started believing he was an overall expert in the field.

The poster that has caused the damage will no longer be allowed to act in this manner on my forum. His two attempts to continue at bj21 led to humiliation. He must learn his limitations and stop such comments here as they are damaging the community and unfairly accuse other posters of malevolent acts and motivations.

Just as I have done for over a decade (at great cost to myself), I just want APs to stop attacking one-another and realize that it is the casinos that we must beat.

Seriously, why can't people simply express opinions without accusing those that disagree with them of malicious intent?

You don't see anything wrong, in guiding people in the wrong direction, into using overly complex count-systems, touting they make their EV [almost on the dot] after every few hours [ie: N0 < 1K]? Saying the EV is 4x-5x that of someone playing (back-counting) 2-tables at once....even while using a smaller spread than the 2-table-HiLo-counter?

There used to actually be some debate and interesting things on your forum (there still is some), but it's turned from a large group of posters with different views and ideas to a few posters that all say the same thing. Do you think letting the Tthree crowd run off everyone else is beneficial to the BJ community?

Calm down guys. My whole point was there's no reason to argue with consistent posters. Just play your own game. I didn't mean to open a can of worms.

I know most here not only don't know, but don't even care about what is being aired here, but for anyone not familiar wishing to follow along, here are the "cliff notes":

I am the poster that Norm (Qfit) is referring to as "the once valuable poster". I hope the part about sharing my personal experiences, good and bad, probably in too much detail, for what I hope is the benefit of others sounds familiar. That has been my objective at the sites (including this one) that I participate on.

To the idea that I regard myself as an expert, quite the contrary, I not only recognize, but embrace my limitations. I am primarily a card counter, probably the simplest, most elementary and almost extinct form of AP in today's world. Nothing I say or do is ground-breaking, nor is anything my own original concept. Everything I do or say has been done before. I like to think I have incorporated bits and pieces from many, many successful card counters, authors and other members of the sites that I have participated on, into my play own little unique style that suits my unique needs and circumstances. The idea that I think I am an some kind of overall expert in the field is a rather bizarre conclusion for anyone to come to who has read any of my posts.

21forme is one of many professional blackjack players and AP's that used to participate regularly on Norm's site, but have been driven away in the last 6 months. There were probably 4 dozen or so, knowledgeable players, half of them what I would describe as professional players, including several members of the BJ HoF, that joined Norm's site on day one, back in 2011 after our previous home closed down. Of the 4 dozen or so knowledgeable players, a handful remain. Of those 2 dozen professional players, all but about 3 have exited. It is not as if they have all retired, died or stop posting. Most participate on other sites...some here. It's just they no longer participate on Norm's site.

RS, our friend and member here is also a member at Norm's site. He is one of those few very knowledgeable posters and strong contributors that still participates there.

The poster that 21forme referred to as knowing everything and answering every post, and I referred to as one of the "residential experts", I will not name.

So those are the players. I will break the post up, so the issue will follow.

Part 2, The issue:

These 2 or 3 residential experts have taken up the position, that card counting in it's simpler form, no longer is possible or profitable. They have taken up promoting advanced counts and techniques, level 2/3 counts with multiple side counts and in a couple cases techniques even more advanced and complicated. They talk down to the membership, many newbies that now make up Norm's site, as well as those of us playing time tested simple type counts like hi-lo, or K-O, even those of us that play professionally and successfully using these counts.

What Norm fails to realize is that the issue is not these advanced counts and techniques. It is possible to discuss one's advanced techniques and ground-breaking work respectfully, as highly respected member Tarzan does when discussing his unique approach. The members we are talking about, instead talk down to everyone, including successful, professional players with years (12 years professional in my case), some with even decades of experience.

The real problem is one that occurs on many websites, including this one, which has even occurred here in recent months.....credibility. On Norm's site, many real live, known professional players have come to question the credibility one of these "residential expert's".

Credibility on websites is a funny thing. It's hard to put it into words. After a while you just get a feel for who knows what they are really talking about and who is just talking. That's what occurred on Norm's site. The majority of the legit, known, professional level players and many of the non-professional, but very knowledgeable players all came to the same conclusion, that this one person, his story and credentials is just not credible. It's not that he doesn't know some blackjack or the math behind blackjack. He does. Far more than me. But the methods he is promoting, which goes against the consensus of many real life professional players, is basically hypothesis, backed by little real life experience or play. His real life experience is computer simulations.

So as many of us, individually came to this same conclusion, some of the professional players, myself included, uncharacteristically began to question this person's real life experience and credentials. I say "uncharacteristically", because these were not players or members that regularly questioned someone's credibility like this. But all reached the same conclusion at the same time. THAT should tell you something. BTW, it's not that you want to call such a person out to humiliate him, but rather, it is wrong not to set the record of credibility straight for the sake of the newer players he is wrongly influencing. Naïve new, likely young players who are risking their hard earned money, based on non-sense.

So all hell broke lose. Norm came to the defense of the member who it must have seemed was being "witch hunted", suspended several members, known professional, strong contributing members. Some professional players exited at that point,. Some exited more quietly over the next several months. And Norm's once promising site, home to many professional blackjack playing AP's is now dominated by a handful of loud (meaning they post often and long and in one case, very big font) members who's views and opinions are out of touch with many/most known, respected professional players in the game today.

Those of us that still care, have raised the issue or participated in discussion like, when others have raised the topic this on several sites. That's what Norm is referring to when he says I was "humiliated" on two occasions on BJ21. I was not humiliated at all. What Norm views as me being humiliated was more accurately a case of members just not having an appetite to continue any discussion (same as likely here). Most have just dismissed Norm's site as irrelevant and advise me to do likewise.

What Norm fails to realize, is I am not his enemy. It's not personal with me. I don't dislike Norm. I have never met him. As a matter of fact, I always sort of liked (and respected) him from my experiences online. What limited success I have enjoyed as a professional card counter, I credit in large part to 2 things, Norm's software and members from several sites that I participate on that continue to teach me things by sharing their experiences and Norm is one such member, somewhere near the top of that list.

And that is why I have actually fought FOR his site. I probably should have just moved on, and dismissed his site as now irrelevant as most other's in the community have. Continuing to care about Norm's site and the impact that these members promoting minority opinions, has on newer players, was my big mistake, but one that I now sadly rectify in this new year, by also giving up on Norm's site, just as nearly all other professional players have.

Come on, take it over to 2+2 or zen zone, we're all tired of it. You really do just need to let it go KJ.

Most anyone with the type of real world common sense needed to be moderately successful in AP will realize the one who writes 10k+ multiparagraphameter posts is mostly full of hot air, no need to save anyone.

Once again, KJ grossly, grossly exaggerates. He makes claims that are patently false. Two more diatribes today filled with false statements and ridiculous characterizations. And, nearly everyone that has been banned at BJTF has been banned elsewhere, mostly for extremist bigotry. His statement that dozens of good posters have left is what is commonly referred to as a lie. Although, there is no question that his constant attacks have chased some posters away. But, any mass exodus has not occurred despite the fact that he wanders about the I'Net telling people it is a voodoo site worse than John Patrick. Twice he has even said people should be dissuaded from using QFIT software because it might somehow tempt them to read BJTF thereby harming them. Seriously.

Look, not everyone uses HiLo. Get used to it. The purpose of a forum is to air ideas and opinions. I have been saying that I will not censor opinions just because KJ doesn't like them. But, he goes on and on and on, now on three forums, with these absurd claims. I let his false accusations and claims on this forum slide for months without any response. But, he just keeps on spewing misinformation and wild exaggerations. Forum wars only help the casinos.

I wish yall could sort this crap out. As a new card counter yall are doing nothing but hurting the AP community. Take it from me as a new counter I'm having a really tough time knowing who to beleive. I use to think that all counts would work as long as they are properly applied. One set of people claim that Hilo is all you need and that and lvl 2 counts are just "chasing pennies" while the other side claims lvl 1 counts won't make real money. Sadly most new counters will steer away from all these sites mostly because everybody's a liar according to who you ask. Me personally I'm going with a lvl 2 count because I have lots of time before my bankroll is high enough to play so i won't to learn a difficult count. ( no denying the fact that it does drop ROR and N0) but not helping EV all that much. So please for the sake of the websites and teaching new counters (which I thought is what these sites were about not pissing matches) please quit slinging mud unless it's just obvious poser like someone who says " I made 250,000 last year playing chunky green in 300 hours"

Level I and level II counts both work fine. What is the best fit is up to the individual. But, it's not the most important aspect. Frankly, threads about the best count bore me to tears. There is no such animal.

Norman you don't seem to even understand the issue. You always want to make it about me being some sort of hi-lo proponent refusing to accept anything else but my way. I don't care about hi-lo, nor what count a player decides to play. Let me say that again. I don't care about hi-lo. I have friends and other players that I network with that play other counts, including level 2 type counts like Zen and RPC. My closest friend in the blackjack community, who spoke up in this thread, doesn't play hi-lo, he plays another level 1 count. It ISN'T about Hi-LO. It is about honesty, credibility and fantastic claims that influence newer players.

Norm you want to make it about me vs you or me out to destroy your site. But you often talk about how I was one of the sites better posters and contributors. My goal was to help other newer players just as other experienced members had helped me, just as I believe that was and still is your intent. Your site has a rating system and I had one of the highest. Do you think one morning, I woke up and said, I no longer want to help and contribute but changed my goal to destroying your site??? It isn't me that changed. I don't even blame you for changing. Your site was hijacked.

These people have agendas Norm. The one guy (Mr 10,000 post) has stated he wants to be known as being ground breaking. He want's to make a name for himself. Tarzan, who I like and respect is writing or planning on writing a book. He has stated that. Wizard is familiar because Tarzan contacted him asking him to analyze his count so he could get Mike's endorsement. These people have agendas. They aren't out to help newer players like you and I are, and yes I still believe that is your goal.

You are now following me from site to site disputing my opinions. But, it isn't just me. Read RS's post below. He has never even bothered to weigh in before. Notice the specific mention of the one member with an agenda driving off everyone else. Go to BJ21 and look at the roster that posts there. Many that USED to post on your site, many legit professional players. Better yet ask these players, why they no longer post.

You Norm, really are the victim here (well you and all the newer players being mislead). Your site has been hijacked and you don't seem to see or want to see that. What is the quote....something like "there is no one so blind as he who will not see". I want you to open your eyes and see, Norm, before it is too late.

Quote: RS

You don't see anything wrong, in guiding people in the wrong direction, into using overly complex count-systems, touting they make their EV [almost on the dot] after every few hours [ie: N0 < 1K]? Saying the EV is 4x-5x that of someone playing (back-counting) 2-tables at once....even while using a smaller spread than the 2-table-HiLo-counter?

There used to actually be some debate and interesting things on your forum (there still is some), but it's turned from a large group of posters with different views and ideas to a few posters that all say the same thing. Do you think letting the Tthree crowd run off everyone else is beneficial to the BJ community?

tl;dr

Heraclitus of Ephesus said “To do the same thing over and over again is not only boredom: it is to be controlled by rather than to control what you do.”

I let KJs numerous posts containing wild exaggerations go unanswered here for months. I have explained my position. I see no reason to explain it 50 more times. He can keep right on repeating that BJTF is a voodoo site worse than John Patrick controlled by a few people with some sort of agenda. His posts will only harm newbies that believe him. BJTF has no need for a high volume of new players as we run no casino affiliate ads. Frankly, I’d rather have experts talk the finer points and investigate new areas than repost the same old “which count is best” threads over and over.

Have a happy new year all. Signing out.

Quote: DD11

I wish yall could sort this crap out. As a new card counter yall are doing nothing but hurting the AP community. Take it from me as a new counter I'm having a really tough time knowing who to beleive. I use to think that all counts would work as long as they are properly applied. One set of people claim that Hilo is all you need and that and lvl 2 counts are just "chasing pennies" while the other side claims lvl 1 counts won't make real money. Sadly most new counters will steer away from all these sites mostly because everybody's a liar according to who you ask. Me personally I'm going with a lvl 2 count because I have lots of time before my bankroll is high enough to play so i won't to learn a difficult count. ( no denying the fact that it does drop ROR and N0) but not helping EV all that much. So please for the sake of the websites and teaching new counters (which I thought is what these sites were about not pissing matches) please quit slinging mud unless it's just obvious poser like someone who says " I made 250,000 last year playing chunky green in 300 hours"

DD11, I am sorry that you were sort of the focal point of this particular round of this ongoing debacle. The fact that you posted on both sites, set off this particular round, but believe me it wasn't about you.

Level 2 count is fine, if that's what you choose. Just know that you don't have to go to level 2 to make money. Many....even Most professional players, myself included, play a level one count. Also most teams play a level one count Hi-lo, including teams made up of some of the smartest guys in the world. In my case, I used to play a level 2 count, RPC and went back to a level 1, deciding there was little difference in results. No one is saying level 2 counts don't work. The important point is diminishing returns. Extra effort for small additional gains. If you believe that is worth it to you. That is great. Just don't believe it makes all that much difference.

The "I made 250,000 last year playing chunky green" type claim is the easy kind to dismiss. Hopefully everyone sees that as ridiculous. The more damaging claims are the ones that aren't so obviously ridiculous. Like the guy claiming he makes $100,000 + using the super duper count, with minimal spread and almost zero variance. I think his words were every few hours, maybe every 10 or 20 hours he hits his EV, right on target. These are the misleading statements I am concerned about. Blackjack card counting involves variance and you need a reasonably big BR and a lot of patience and mental discipline to withstand the variance and swings and there is no super duper count that can change that.

Quote: QFIT

Signing out.

Pce.

Quote: QFIT

tl;dr

hum....didn't even know what this meant. I had to look it up. For anyone else wondering tl;dr = too long didn't read. (at least I learned something today, although not particularly useful)

Hard to believe you didn't read it, Norm, since you are now trolling me, following me from site to site, reading every word of my opinions and disputing them.

I am really regretful it has come to this. I and I think most others driven away have great respect and admiration towards you. I really don't want to continue this debacle. I honestly will try to not start conversations talking bad about your site. But know that when a new player pops up here, I most certainly can not recommend your site and very regretfully that includes not recommending your outstanding software, for fear they will stumble onto the message board portion of the site. And when someone mentions your site, I have no choice but to express my honest opinion that your site is harmful to new players (maybe all players).

Peace to you, Norm. Wishing you a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year.

Quote: RS

Pce.

Ok...I also don't know what this one means. Looked it up and can find nothing.

In 2016 have we taken to no longer using words?

Peace.

You guys really need to stop arguing. It's worse now than the battles with PaiGowDan.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Peace.

Really?

RS...you couldn't stick two more freaking letters in there? LOL.

Quote: kewlj

Really?

RS...you couldn't stick two more freaking letters in there? LOL.

It was meant more as "don't let the door hit you on the way out". It's common (in gaming at least.....speaking of which I haven't done in forever).

Quote: kewlj

Really?

RS...you couldn't stick two more freaking letters in there? LOL.

LOL? What's that? :-)

It's funny that I, too, had to look up tl;dr, found that one, and couldn't find anything on pce.

BTW, I also played those Trop 4D games for the short time they lasted. They even had a billboard on the AC Expwy touting them. I found it hilarious how it was such a counter convention in that mini-pit.

I forgot, many people on forums these days are old, probably like 35+. I'll use larger font so you guys can read easier, without having to use your "spectacles". :)

Quote: 21forme

BTW, I also played those Trop 4D games for the short time they lasted. They even had a billboard on the AC Expwy touting them. I found it hilarious how it was such a counter convention in that mini-pit.

I only played a couple session at the 4D trop games. It was early in my career and at the time, I really didn't know just how better a "legit" decent cut 4D would be over the typical AC crap I was playing in those days. I wasn't familiar with "counter traps" and don't really think that was the intent, but something just told me to tread lightly. A couple of sessions seeing other counters as plain as day and the game being watched closely, was enough to scare me off.

But I did check out the game a number of times even when I had no intent on playing, just to see the spectacle it had become in terms of a card counter's convention.

I recall seeing a young kid standing behind one of the tables, moving his lips while counting. Was that you? :-)

Quote: mcallister3200

Come on, take it over to 2+2 or zen zone, we're all tired of it. You really do just need to let it go KJ.

Most anyone with the type of real world common sense needed to be moderately successful in AP will realize the one who writes 10k+ multiparagraphameter posts is mostly full of hot air, no need to save anyone.

It shouldn't have to come down to that -- someone having to decipher who is telling the truth and who is full of hot air. There is already enough misinformation out there regarding card-counting (ie: movies, where you get rich quick)....no need to make it more difficult for those who are just getting into.

I too played in the trop when all the counters were attacking those 4 deck games.It was quite a convention.

Quote: QFIT

Forum wars only help the casinos.

Actually gambling forums and openly discussing AP on them only helps the casinos. Gaming forums have and do cause serious damage to the AP community by spading free 1 stop information to the casinos. People openly sharing their tactics, techniques and plays is a terrible thing especially in the hands of dark-siders. Loose lips sink ships.

If someone is serious about AP they really don't need a forum.

If all the arguing is distracting members from posting about the finer points of AP and juicy information it's actually helping AP. It's probably better if casino management is seeing a bunch of nonsense and think AP is a big joke.

I don't think I have found any valuable information on any of the forums. All the value has been from meting good people on the forum. Mostly people who don't post TMI.

Quote: 21forme

I recall seeing a young kid standing behind one of the tables, moving his lips while counting. Was that you? :-)

Was that YOU I was rubbing up against? Sorry about that. I didn't have my contacts in and needed to get closer to see. :)

No, I don't move my lips when I count, but if the count gets too high and I run out of fingers, I may need to take my shoes off.

See that's why I use a level 1 count....helps keep the numbers low and my shoes on. :)

A long time ago (the technology involved will give you an idea of the timeframe) I belonged to a Citizens Band highway assistance club. A bunch of 10-4 Good Buddy, CB lingo-throwing yahoos who banded together for get-togethers and beer-guzzling, combined with some time spent monitoring channel 9, the emergency channel, to provide assistance to broken-down motorists, mostly truckers, and to share a common interest in what was then somewhat state-of-the art two way radio.

Then the bickering started, and cliques formed around a few of the more outspoken members, maybe the ones who were the worst "mean drunks" at the cookouts and "coffee breaks". Sides were taken. Like websites today, conversations occurred and were repeated, shared, "re-tweeted" by word of mouth, analyzed and examined like chapters from the gospels. A comment made in haste, in passing, or in jest was re-heard as an insult, personal attack or worse.

The group broke up and reformed into two new groups, but the those groups themselves exploded and were themselves reincarnated. At one point people forgot why it was that they wouldn't have anything to do with those so-and-so's in one of the other groups, except that they sure knew that they were total flaming a--holes.

I stopped associating with all of them. I would imagine that cell phones and the internet put an end to these groups, about the same time as they started taking down roadside emergency phones. It didn't matter, because the name and charter of the group had nothing to do with what it was about anymore.

I lurk about on a bunch of sites, having to do with things as diverse as gambling, politics and sleep apnea. I contribute now and then, read all of the advice offered by folks whose level of knowledge or expertise is unknown to me. I take some advice, ignore some other, and generally think all of it is worth exactly what I paid for it.

Lately it seems that a greater than beneficial percentage of the traffic on this site is nothing more than the same old crap I saw being thrown around back in my CB days. Mixed in, more and more difficult to separate from the crap, is less and less valuable insight appealing to my particular taste, card-counting blackjack.

Reading these threads is now like trying to glean meaningful pieces of information by listening to my drunken relatives arguing amongst themselves around the Christmas dinner table. It's just BARELY worth it.

But if this keeps up, you're all going to end up like my former CB good buddies. Irrelevant, forgotten, ignored. You'll be left only with the name-callers and self-justifiers, all of you taking past each other, with nobody really listening or hearing a damned thing.

Too bad.