Donuts
Donuts
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October 22nd, 2015 at 10:29:15 AM permalink
Has anyone ever intentionally scouted/created a situation where a dealer consistently makes a payout error in the players favor enough to overcome the house edge?

Some examples I've encountered:

I found a dealer that thought 50% of $25 was $17.50 in a 6 deck game with surrender. This gave me close to a 6% edge plus whatever value I got from counting.

I was playing at a $25 DD table with another guy betting blacks. Because of my spread I was mostly betting greens but would bet 1-2 blacks occasionally if the count called for it. On one hand I bet a quarter and the dealer paid me $100. I took it, hid it in my stack of greens, then excused myself to the bathroom for a few minutes to hide it in my pockets. Thanks for the free 1.5 hours of EV.

Stanford Wong mentions a dealer that didn't know how to pay out 3:2 on uncommon bet amounts. He would bet something like $55 and get well over 3:2 in return (don't remember the exact amount) giving him a significant edge.

This leads back to my original question: has anyone ever heard of someone manipulating the dealer into making major pay out errors as their primary form of AP, even forgoing counting, hole carding, etc.
Wino
Wino
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October 22nd, 2015 at 3:09:59 PM permalink
I'm curious about this too. Thank you for mentioning Wong and uncommon betting amounts. I recently encountered a dealer that would pay my pushes. Now that I think of it, that has happened sparingly over a 4 month period. I guess scouting for good pen should become secondary criteria?! Got me thinking. Thanks for the post.
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RS
RS
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October 22nd, 2015 at 3:25:35 PM permalink
Had a new dealer that wasn't....how do you say it nicely....too good at her job.

Anyway, 6 deck shoe, double down cards are supposed to be dealt face up. The guy on third base asked for his to be dealt face-down. Ok. Dealer busted, goes to pay the player before flipping the card face-up. I say, "Hey hold on! Flip the card over first." [that's proper dealing procedure.] So the dealer would pay the player, take the money back, flip the card over, then pay again. This was enough time for the dealer to get a little confused and forget the outcome of her own hand, and she'd go into paying auto-pilot, as if she busted. It didn't last too long, maybe 15-20 minutes, before she went on break. But it was pretty fun, semi-managing the player at third base to double down, even poor double downs like 8vs2-6, 9vs7-9, 10vsT, etc. But sure enough, any time the player doubled, the dealer went into "pay everyone" mode. I don't think the guy at third base figured out what was happening until his total hand of 15 beat the dealer's [obvious] 3-card 20.


Several years ago, I was playing at a small joint in the middle of nowhere. I hit my 12v2, took the dealer bust card, and everyone yelled at me. I could tell the dealer knew I was right but didn't want to (lambaste?) the other players, so he didn't mention it. Over the next probably 30-45 minutes, the players continued to b*tch and moan about my hitting of 12v2. But I also noticed the dealer was severely under-paying them. I figured, "Eh, what the hell, who cares. If he under-pays me, I'll have it fixed." I mean, these guys were getting paid stuff like $27.50 on $25 hands, $11.50 on $10 hands. It was pretty funny. Finally I hit a blackjack. I don't remember what it paid, but it was severely over. I think it was something like a $65 bet and it paid like $142.50. I played a little while longer then decided to color up. I had something like $385 coloring up. Dealer does the usual thing, breaks 'em down, cuts out $300 in black, $75 in green, and $10 in red. Boss gives the go ahead, he gives me my chips, I stand up and I'm about to head out. Then the best thing happens -- he says something like, "Hold on, that's not all the color." and hands me the last $75 in green and $10 in red. A nice $85 bonus.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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October 23rd, 2015 at 5:56:07 AM permalink
Although there are people here who would argue, if there's an error in your favor, I'd say shut yer yap and take it.

But to intentionally infuence the dealer into making errors? Not me. If you have balls enough to do it, as well as suffer any consequences?...
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Romes
Romes
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October 23rd, 2015 at 6:48:17 AM permalink
Pretty sure Don Johnson would have something to say on the topic. In the documentary he talked about intentionally betting odd amounts, playing super fast and working at least 1-2 mistakes per hour out of the dealers. Then he reminded us "1-2 mistakes per hour" with what he was betting was like $20k-$40k per hour! Never mind the loss rebate, great rules, etc, etc, he had worked out.

One of the biggest dealer mistakes I recall is an $80 bet at first base. It was a stiff 18 and the dealer ended up making a 20 but when he was paying/taking from the table someone in the middle had a double down with a card face down. When flipped it was 21, and I guess the dealer just went to auto-pilot assuming a bust or something and paid everyone else, including the $80 bet at first base. That's a $160 swing! Maybe it seemed like a big moment to me because we were losing but that hand was the one that things started turning around on and shot uphill from there (with just counting, etc, no more dealer mistakes).

I've never coerced a dealer in to making a mistake (shouting 19 when I have 18 or something) but I've certainly capitalized on every dealer mistake they give me =).
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 23rd, 2015 at 8:47:23 AM permalink
Largest payoff error I received was $450 on a losing bet.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
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October 23rd, 2015 at 9:08:26 AM permalink
Hands down - largest dealer errors come on Aisian poker. Second most pai how poker/ then pai gow tiles them Texas hold 'em
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AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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October 23rd, 2015 at 11:44:46 AM permalink
I can't recall the biggest over payment I have had.

I have gotten paid many times tucking multi card 22 and 23. One dealer at The Stratosphere did this often.

If a cashier over pays me I give it back because I know they have to pay it back and could lose their job.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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October 23rd, 2015 at 2:08:23 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I can't recall the biggest over payment I have had.

I have gotten paid many times tucking multi card 22 and 23. One dealer at The Stratosphere did this often.

If a cashier over pays me I give it back because I know they have to pay it back and could lose their job.


I'm not sure I understood Axel's response fully, but I watch the payouts on MY hands. I call, CALL, when incorrect, either way. I had never considered taking advantage of the situation, obviously some other posters have considered. A bunch apparently have done so.....
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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October 23rd, 2015 at 5:01:49 PM permalink
Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I'm not sure I understood Axel's response fully.....

What Axel is saying is, at the cage, he will always correct an error, even if it's in his favor. The reasoning is simple: At the end of the shift, they do a count. If he keeps the overpayment, the count will be off, and the cage girl will get written up, or worse.

At a table, there is no way to count for accuracy at the end of the shift. They only count to see the results. Errors are undiscoverable at that point, so he has no incentive to correct the error in his favor.

I think a lot of us will respond the same way.


It's kinda the same way with any retail transaction. If the product gets rung up cheaper than marked, we make no effort to correct the problem. But if the cashier gives extra change, we do fix it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Dodsferd
Dodsferd
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October 23rd, 2015 at 5:58:29 PM permalink
I've never taken advantage of an erroneous payment in a casino. I find it hypocritical of the job I do when I'm on the other end. To each their own, but I point out when there is an underpayment or over payment. Regardless of circumstance.
This feeling is heavy, makes my body ache and I'm ready; To fall into the sky and I see now, the reason why. My heart is heavy, takes me to a place I can't breathe. Only then I know why I see the warning sign.
Minty
Minty
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October 23rd, 2015 at 6:18:58 PM permalink
While I've never manipulated a dealer into making mistakes I have benefitted from them and logged their name and shift in my records. Every penny counts!
"Just because I'm not doing anything illegal, doesn't mean I won't have to defend myself someday." -Chip Reese
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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October 23rd, 2015 at 7:46:08 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

What Axel is saying is, at the cage, he will always correct an error, even if it's in his favor. The reasoning is simple: At the end of the shift, they do a count. If he keeps the overpayment, the count will be off, and the cage girl will get written up, or worse.

At a table, there is no way to count for accuracy at the end of the shift. They only count to see the results. Errors are undiscoverable at that point, so he has no incentive to correct the error in his favor.

I think a lot of us will respond the same way.


It's kinda the same way with any retail transaction. If the product gets rung up cheaper than marked, we make no effort to correct the problem. But if the cashier gives extra change, we do fix it.

Correct.

Perhaps he may not have understood tucking multi card 22 or 23. This was years ago probably 2001. I doubt I would attempt it nowadays. I don't encourage it and I hope others don't attempt it.

I noticed the guy next to me though he had 21 and stood by tucking his hole cards under his chips. He actually had 22 and busted , he should've flipped over his cards and conceded to a loss. The dealer just paid him. I tried it next time I had a similar hand and got paid as well.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
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November 3rd, 2015 at 1:34:27 PM permalink
I kind of think like that too. $10 mispay is an hour of no house edge or whatever. You can get a ton of mispays on Ultimate Texas Holdem. I would never try to manipulate a dealer but if they make a mistake, I won't correct it if it's in the players favor. Now the other day I did try something. I saw a new blackjack dealer who seemed pretty clumsy. This had happened to me before and I kind of bet myself I could get her to do it. When I busted or got blackjack, I immediately put my next bet up even though the hand was not over. Sure enough when she busted and went into autopay mode and payed my hand with no cards there. The pit boss was right there watching so I kind of waited a second and said I'll be happy to take it if you want. She then realized what she was doing. If I am mispayed, I always wait several seconds. I don't immediately grab my chips. I figure if security saw me do that they would know I knew I got paid wrong.

The funny thing is I'm like a pretty honest guy. I really wouldn't take anything from anybody. The other day at the grocery store I saw the items being scanned and saw the apples already in the bag. I said to the cashier you forgot the apples.
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