As a floor supervisor I am open to any questions about blackjack answered from my point of view

Quote: kewlj

Quote: RS

I'm a dealer...not a supervisor....but I see where Elvis is coming from. Most of the time when the floor asks what someone's average bet is, I'll tell them accurately, whether they tipped or not. But sometimes the player is a total a**hole, plays for hours, doesn't drop a dollar for the dealers, makes it impossible to deal to him.....then yeah, he might get a poor rating.

*Player colors up a sizable win after a 6-hour session of hell*
[doesn't drop $1 when coloring up, and hasn't all night]
"You try pulling that shit at a restaurant, I'm spitting in your food next time you come in"

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wasn't me who made the comment.

I hesitate to enter another 'tipping' discussion, as I was just involved in an extensive one on Norm's BJ site this week, in which I, the non-tipper was outnumbers and painted as the villain, but.....

My problem with your position RS , or at least the position that you quoted is that I do not view dealers in the same light as waiters, waitresses, barbers, bell hops and other service type jobs that provide a personalized service to me. I view a dealer more as just a common low level customer service type job dealing with the public, like a cashier. I mean no offense to you or anyone when I say that. It's honest work and dealers deserve to be paid an honest wage, whatever than may be, BY THE EMPLOYER.

I resent that the casino owner tries to push the responsibility of paying his workers off on the customer, so that he can put more money in his pockets. They are running a business they should pay their employees. I think the casino industry more than anyone has pushed the notion that dealer is in the class of waiter/waitress as far as tipping. There just is no personalized service like that. Now maybe if the player requests a private game with a private dealer, then tipping is in order. Otherwise I just don't see dealer as a position that requires tipping.

In reality it is in the casino industry's best interest not only to discourage tipping, but they should not allow it. The casino industry's top priority should be protecting integrity of the games at all cost. Tipping opens the door to collusion between player and dealer. It can be something as mild as players working the dealer for better penetration, to something like outright cheating. Either way they SHOULD protect against that compromising of the integrity of the game, but greed does not allow them to do so.

It would be much more understandable and respectable if instead of proclaiming you are a non-tipper, to say that you only tip if the person provides you a quality experience above what the average person might do. Would it kill you to flip a dealer 2 bucks (or 5 bucks if you just won $500) when you've enjoyed your time at the table??

I'm not saying tip everyone and I'm not saying tip just because you won. How about just because you appreciate the job someone did? I order pizza to go sometimes and go pick it up. The counter person is not normally a tipped position, but I don't go waling in thinking I don't tip counter workers. If they are friendly, offer me water while waiting, ask if I want anything like peppers or cheese, or do whatever they do above and beyond, I give them a small tip. It lets them know I appreciate it.


ZCore13

Quote: Sabretom2

I understand completely. I teach graduate level aeronautics for a living and I gotta tell ya, good luck passing any exams if you're a weak or non-tipper.

Excellent (and funny) point and response, Sabretom2.

Honestly, yes RS, my circumstances (professional player) and style (very short sessions) does influence my views on the subject. How could they not?

If a person is heading out on a Saturday night for a night of entertainment and gambling and plops himself down at a table for 4 hours with a friendly dealer, and that friendly dealer thing is important to him, and he wishes to tip the dealer that's fine. That's his option.

My problem is this notion that it is required, like some sort of casino tax. Dealers EXPECT it. The casino owner EXPECTS it and now takes advantage of that to pay his employees less and literally push that responsibility to players. It's not a gratuity, a bonus and/or show of appreciation...it is now an expectation. To the point that dealers become tip hustlers, no different than all the other hustlers out of Las Vegas Blvd, hustling for money.

If you play the 'locals circuit' of casino that I do, it is even worse. Dealers flat out ask for tips. And now from this thread we are seeing further evidence of this expectation in that several dealers and/or casino industry type people want to go as far countermeasures against non-tippers as if they have committed a crime. A tip in the gaming industry is not mandatory. It should not be expected. It is not the same thing as waiters and waitresses, who provide a personal service and equating the two situations is wrong.

I'll close with the line I used in the discussion on Norm's site. If the dealer wants to pause during the shuffle and give me a little head, THEN I will consider it a personal service and tip accordingly. :)

Quote: kj

If a person is heading out on a Saturday night for a night of entertainment and gambling and plops himself down at a table for 4 hours with a friendly dealer, and that friendly dealer thing is important to him, and...

The problem is people wanting personalized service yet don't tip. They want personalized service yet claim it's not a personalized service.

Quote: Zcore13

Would it kill you to flip a dealer 2 bucks (or 5 bucks if you just won $500) when you've enjoyed your time at the table??

ZCore13

Obviously it wouldn't KILL me (literally), nor would it devastate my bottom line. Earlier in my career, I did tip regularly. Over time, I concluded that it just wasn't even appreciated. $5 at color up on a win of $500 is not appreciated. They think they are entitled to more. A dollar or two bet for the dealer when I have my max bet out of $400 is looked at as cheap, viewed by some as worse than non-tipping. It's this climate of 'expectation that we have entered into that really irks me.

I'll tell you the two stories that really pushed me over the edge.

1.) I tipped a dealer $2 and he responded and notice the quotes "thanks, now I can buy a newspaper".

2.) I tipped a dealer $5 as he went on break, because I had a pretty good run and as he walked by the pit guy he said "seat X is counting and spreading".

Card counters often tip, working the dealers, looking for something in exchange like better penetration or buying a little silence. I personally have never been interested in 'buying' better penetration. To me that borders on collusion, more than borders....it actually is collusion and bribery, even if it is a mild case. I don't want any special treatment. I don't want anything I am not entitled to. I am not asking the dealer to break rules by offering deeper penetration.

But, I will admit, that earlier in my career, when I tipped, I thought it would buy me a little discretion in the 'ratting you out department'. The case I mentioned above wasn't the only such case that occurred. That was the one I heard plain as day. There were others that the dealer said something to the pit that I didn't hear and I was backed off a minute later.

Anyway, for me, it was just a cumulative effect that small tips were not appreciated and even worse looked down on, replaced by a climate of expectation, and expectation of a certain level and I am just unwilling to share that level of my profits, so I have settled on my policy of no tipping, or more accurately very rarely tipping. Even as I consider myself a 'giving person' I am more than comfortable with that.

Quote: RS

The problem is people wanting personalized service yet don't tip. They want personalized service yet claim it's not a personalized service.

What would be considered personalized service?

Quote: kewlj

My problem is this notion that it is required, like some sort of casino tax. Dealers EXPECT it. The casino owner EXPECTS it and now takes advantage of that to pay his employees less and literally push that responsibility to players. It's not a gratuity, a bonus and/or show of appreciation...it is now an expectation. To the point that dealers become tip hustlers, no different than all the other hustlers out of Las Vegas Blvd, hustling for money.

Quote: kewlj

I tipped a dealer $2 and he responded and notice the quotes "thanks, now I can buy a newspaper".

KJ speaks the truth. I tip what I can afford to tip and what I think is deserved in tips. So I try to do $5/hr, but I usually always end up doing more than this. Even if I was strict, and kept it to $5/hr, I think this is very generous. If everyone is tipping like I am (let's say there are 4 people at the table), well that's $20/hr. I think someone who is a dealer and can consistently make $20/hr (more on weekends) should be very happy with their wage. Much better off than the janitors, cashiers, hotel staff, etc. at the casino.

But of course there are always the dealers who think they 'deserve' more. Especially on a big win. Doesn't matter if I was there 5 minutes or 60 minutes, some dealers show their lack of appreciation for what I consider a good tip. That's why I had to adjust the way I tip. If I lose, break even, or win a few hundred, no tip. The exception is if I get good service or I spend a long time at the table. This way, I can save up for when I am 'required' to tip big on a big win.

Quote: 1BB

What would be considered personalized service?

I consider good service to be one of the following:

1. Dealer is fun to play with, makes good conversation, doesn't look like they want to die, etc.
2. Dealer giving good penetration in a casino with not so great penetration, dealer dealing fast, dealer not making a big stink about my plays, dealer not stopping the game for 10 minutes to take the time to explain their crappy version of basic strategy to a new player, etc.

Back when dealers kept their own tips, I
tipped more. Now they all split tips with
all the other dealers and I do it a lot less.
It changed somewhere around the late
80's early 90's, I don't really remember.

Questions for OP:

What fraction of your drop on BJ Tables come from poor or inexpert players?

What kind of unwelcome player behavior tends to be your biggest problem when managing a pit?

Quote: kewlj

For me, it was just a cumulative effect that small tips were not appreciated and even worse looked down on, replaced by a climate of expectation, and expectation of a certain level.

You might have encountered a run of tough customers. That could be a problem at a blackjack table. At the craps table, the dealers (not to mention the boxperson) can make life quite a bit easier, what with making change, correcting mistakes, calling attention amid daydreams and, of course, making sure that the cheques move correctly and odds are quickly and correctly placed.

Quote: rsactuary

Axel knows a thing or two.

Axel knows a lot, you gotta admire Axel. I hold Axel in awe, and he scares me a little. Don't F w/Alex, he's a wolf, and can smell red bloody meat for miles ;-)

Quote: kewlj

I view a dealer more as just a common low level customer service type job dealing with the public, like a cashier. I mean no offense to you or anyone when I say that. It's honest work and dealers deserve to be paid an honest wage, whatever than may be, BY THE EMPLOYER.

You don't mean any offense, but you say it anyhow. No wonder people on the other board viewed you as the "bad guy" with that attitude. Looking down your nose at people in the service industry is patronizing and offensive. You say you don't have any problem tipping waiters, etc...its interesting you don't hold restaurant owners with the same amount of contempt...considering they often receive less in hourly wages than a dealer does.

Quote:

What kind of unwelcome player behavior tends to be your biggest problem when managing a pit?

Not directed towards me, but as a supervisor I'd like to answer this question...its players who repetitively break rules multiple times after being asked not to do so, such as not hitting the back wall in craps or improperly requesting hits on a handheld blackjack game.

Calling negative attention to a player generally causes other players to be agitated ("You're picking on him. He's new--give him a break!") and causes general ill will for all parties involved. I want players to enjoy their experience but at the same time, need to enforce the rules as written. Coming off as an umpire is construed as a hostile environment from a patron's point of view.

From a house perspective, such incidents cut into our hands per hour.

I have played at tables with dealers who amazingly have been able to do their job efficiently and also have been humorous, friendly and charming. This is rare but it does happen. When this happened I was happy to tip above and beyond especially if I was winning. I was a counter but I didn't count every penny. It felt good to make a gesture of appreciation.

Quote: RS

The problem is people wanting personalized service yet don't tip. They want personalized service yet claim it's not a personalized service.

define "personalized service". now-a-days many many "service" related jobs all expect tips, yet won't even do half the work. Tipping is absolutely meant as a "thank-you" yet many in the service industry abuse it as expected subsidized income and those who half ass their job will be the first to complain when they do not get tipped or not tipped enough. When the general public realizes a tip is earned and not expected, that's when I'll start tipping more frequently again. Honestly I wish they'd bring back restaurants like ponderosa or something similar (not fast food), where you pick up your own food at the counter

tl;dr: very rarely do you actually get truly "personalized service"

Quote: EvenBob

Back when dealers kept their own tips, I
tipped more. Now they all split tips with
all the other dealers and I do it a lot less.
It changed somewhere around the late
80's early 90's, I don't really remember.

Maybe for the first time, I've found common ground with EB. Tip pooling doesn't encourage good customer service. I've always tipped based on good service, but knowing the tip will be shared by the grumpy ass dealer at the next table over discourages me from tipping as much as I may have otherwise.

Quote: kewlj

Quote: RS

I view a dealer more as just a common low level customer service type job dealing with the public, like a cashier.

I think you're dead wrong. First of all you spend a great deal more time with a dealer than you do with a cashier at CVS for example. Secondly, while you're playing and the dealer is dealing there is the potential for something very exciting to happen to you. You could win 15 max bets at his or her table. Nothing exciting is going to happen to you when your buying some eyedrops at CVS.

I generally tip more when I feel they are not expecting it and don't care.

If dealers just do their thing, and not worry about people who don't tip, its way better for your own sake. Don't worry about it, or you will become jaded towards everyone that isn't filling your pocket.

If they just stop worrying about it and like people for who they are and not how they tip, they will have a better carefree attitude. That will lead to better tips. If I like someone, I will tip more a lot more. I don't have a strict tipping policy. I just go with how I feel. I rarely stiff because that's bad for business.


If someone gives me the slightest indication they are annoyed or upset they are not getting tips. I tip significantly less(the min I can get away with)