Question about wonging

First off this site is awesome and I am honored to have become a member. Before I get to my question allow be to give a little background info about my current blackjack skill level and experience. I go to vegas/reno about once a month for work. I play on average 15 hours of bj each trip. I know basic strategy flawlessly. I am new to card counting but am learning quickly (hi lo). On my most recent trip to vegas I was able to count and use the knowledge gained to enhance my playing strategy. I was at the casino with the best odds in vegas using a 1-5 spread, 5$ to 25$. It ws extremely fun to know I had an edge over the casino and had a reason for what I was betting. My bankroll is 1000$. I WANT TO BE CLEAR THAT I DO NOT EXPECT TO WIN, I JUST VERY MUCH ENJOY PLAYING AND WANT TO PLAY THE BEST GAME I CAN.

So now to the question; I travel in a group of over 20 people many of which are big time gamblers. My coworkers are not good players. They don't play basic strategy and do not count but, they do bet much bigger than me. So often times they'll be one or 2 of us playing and another 2 or 3 simply watching. While watching on my latest trip I wonged in some ideal situation true count 3+ and was able to win some larger pots simply by betting larger when the odds were in my favor. If I were to strictly wong in counts of 3+ with a bet of 25$ what would my expected results be? If the tc is less than +1 I will not play. I intend to play at at least 5 different casinos with no more than .40 % house edge and minimums of no more than 10$. I want to reiterate that the way in which we gamble 3 or 4 watching and 2 playing as well as my smallish bets 30$ max (smaller than my coworkers avg bets) would seemingly make it unlikely that I would get any heat. Furthermore if I did get heat I wouldn't mind bc I wont be in vegas again anytime soon and I'm not trying to be a pro or anything. Thanks so much and please let me know if there is any additional info I could provide. Thanks

If you only wonged in at 3+ true count, you would be spending something like 90% of your time watching people play blackjack. Is that what you want?

Quote: nemesiscc16

First off this site is awesome and I am honored to have become a member. Before I get to my question allow be to give a little background info about my current blackjack skill level and experience. I go to vegas/reno about once a month for work. I play on average 15 hours of bj each trip. I know basic strategy flawlessly. I am new to card counting but am learning quickly (hi lo). On my most recent trip to vegas I was able to count and use the knowledge gained to enhance my playing strategy. I was at the casino with the best odds in vegas using a 1-5 spread, 5$ to 25$. It ws extremely fun to know I had an edge over the casino and had a reason for what I was betting. My bankroll is 1000$. I WANT TO BE CLEAR THAT I DO NOT EXPECT TO WIN, I JUST VERY MUCH ENJOY PLAYING AND WANT TO PLAY THE BEST GAME I CAN.

So now to the question; I travel in a group of over 20 people many of which are big time gamblers. My coworkers are not good players. They don't play basic strategy and do not count but, they do bet much bigger than me. So often times they'll be one or 2 of us playing and another 2 or 3 simply watching. While watching on my latest trip I wonged in some ideal situation true count 3+ and was able to win some larger pots simply by betting larger when the odds were in my favor. If I were to strictly wong in counts of 3+ with a bet of 25$ what would my expected results be? If the tc is less than +1 I will not play. I intend to play at at least 5 different casinos with no more than .40 % house edge and minimums of no more than 10$. I want to reiterate that the way in which we gamble 3 or 4 watching and 2 playing as well as my smallish bets 30$ max (smaller than my coworkers avg bets) would seemingly make it unlikely that I would get any heat. Furthermore if I did get heat I wouldn't mind bc I wont be in vegas again anytime soon and I'm not trying to be a pro or anything. Thanks so much and please let me know if there is any additional info I could provide. Thanks

Glad you found us, nemesiscc16. Welcome.

You'd be lucky to play 15 hands an hour waiting for +3 and even at that count you will lose more hands than you win. I don't see any upside here. There is quite a bit of variance with this plan as well.

Could you perhaps enlist one of those 20 coworkers as a partner? Would you consider wonging in earlier, say at +2? I just don't think what you propose is the best plan. I'd love to see someone sim this. Hint, hint.

No its not lol. That's useful info. Thanks

Thanks 1bb. I certainly would consider jumping in at 2 or even 1. Unfortunately my coworkers aren't super interested in learning the basics. They do provide excellent cover though.

The games you describe are beatable but not with shortcuts.

I wong out more than I wong in but there's something I neglected to mention. When wonging in always have chips with you to avoid stopping the game and attracting attention with a cash buy in.

Great points 1BB. Makes a ton of sense. Thanks!

Hey nemesiscc, and welcome to the forums! Indeed there's a lot of great information on here if you search for it =).

If you were to Wong in at TC +2, on a .4% HE DD game (higher frequencies), with a $25 bet, then you're looking to make about $6.56/hour. Not even minimum wage =/. The reason I point that out is you said you're more looking to play for fun and play the best game you can play.

Well, if you play through down to TC -2, all you'd have to do to achieve the same hourly rate is up your max bet slightly... You could still make $6.14/hour if you flat bet $5 at TC < 1, $15 at TC = +1, and $30 at TC > +1. This would enable you to play many more hands and enjoy the game, with nearly the same expected value (EV) of sitting out 90% of the time and wonging in.

Wonging is something that is very powerful, but is usually more for the "EV" minded players whom really want to squeak out every penny of expectation. You have a phenomenal situation for wonging too =p. If I was in your position, even with a $1,000 bankroll, I'd wong in at TC +2 and flat bet $50 while the TC >= +2. That would net you about $13.11/hour. With this though, once I built my bankroll up a bit, I'd start betting harder on the wong in, but make sure that I'm betting under what my buddies are betting (assuming from your story they're betting blacks or more).

If you want to know how I got those numbers, it was from a simple excel spreadsheet. I explain how you can create your own in my A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack thread. When you do that anytime you have a question like this you can just pull open that spreadsheet, plug and play with some numbers and see what it does to your expectation. It's quite handy =). Feel free to ask any further questions as well.

Good luck. Be sure to report back after your trips and let us know how you're doing!

Romes thankyou so much for the thougful and thorough response. I will indeed take your advice. Like I said before I really am playing for fun but, want to play the best possible game I can. And yes my coworkers are indeed betting black chips or more (at times). It pains me to see some of the things they do. I definitely tried to help them out with basic strategy and they are receptive but at the end of the day you have to put in the time to memorize. I have read your a to z counting thread btw, multiple times. Absolutely phenomenal. Thankyou. As someone who has only recently gotten in to blackjack I am amazed by how many layers there are to the game. from basic strategy, to counting, to spreading, to camo, and on and on it seriously seems like a game that can never truly be perfected and thatthere will always be room for improvement in some facet. I think that's why I'm hooked. I have a stressful job and all the studying, practicing, and learning has been such a relaxing and immersing outlet for me. I have studied for roughly 1 to 3 hours a day for the last 2 months and it has been pure enjoyment. Thanks again for the response.

What you really should be doing is flat betting the table minimum while you play, then signal your big-betting buddies to come over when the count is good. They come in, bet their big bets, and you signal for them to stop.

In exchange for this, you get a portion of their winnings.

Quote: nemesiscc16

Romes thankyou so much for the thougful and thorough response. I will indeed take your advice. Like I said before I really am playing for fun but, want to play the best possible game I can. And yes my coworkers are indeed betting black chips or more (at times). It pains me to see some of the things they do. I definitely tried to help them out with basic strategy and they are receptive but at the end of the day you have to put in the time to memorize. I have read your a to z counting thread btw, multiple times. Absolutely phenomenal. Thankyou. As someone who has only recently gotten in to blackjack I am amazed by how many layers there are to the game. from basic strategy, to counting, to spreading, to camo, and on and on it seriously seems like a game that can never truly be perfected and thatthere will always be room for improvement in some facet. I think that's why I'm hooked. I have a stressful job and all the studying, practicing, and learning has been such a relaxing and immersing outlet for me. I have studied for roughly 1 to 3 hours a day for the last 2 months and it has been pure enjoyment. Thanks again for the response.

That's awesome to hear nemesiscc! Indeed there are a TON facets to the game, but the real skill is marrying a lot of small facets together to make the 'system' work =), which is just practice practice practice. It sounds like you're aware of most of these facets, so I encourage you to make an excel sheet and play with the numbers! Sometimes you can be quite surprised about what the numbers say and it's nothing what you were expecting... such as you can actually PLAY the game you love instead of wonging if you simply modify your spread a couple dollars. Best of luck to you, and we're here if you have more questions =p.

You should give us a trip report when you and your friends go, with all that action they give and your sneaky play, I'm sure it would be entertaining!

I wanted to give a report. So as luck would have it I never made it to vegas. Instead I went to Wendover. Wendover offers some extremely favorable black jack games. The place I played has SD, DA2, solid penetration. House edge of only .16%. Well I stopped in at 3;00 pm and didn't stop playing til about 1:30 am. I know perfect BS and count perfectly. The only index plays I used regularly were insurance and 10 v. 16. I had spent easily over 100 hours studying before I stepped foot in the casino. Initially I was spreading 5 to 25 on the low stakes table with a 500$ bankroll. I was basically even for the first 2 hours. At that point I was like screw it and went to the 25$ min table. Spreading 25-100 I came up 1900$. I was blatantly counting and leaving the table often at -2 or below. I walked away around 10 times with 150$ish or more in winnings and before I knew it I was up some serious $. One major factor was that as it got later it was just myself and the dealer at the table. The only camo I employed was pretending to be drunker than I was and pretending to take a few phone calls. This had to be pretty obvious to the pit bosses who were watching pretty closely but they didn't seem to care at all. In fact they insisted I get a players card which led to me getting a free room. Really fun experience putting all my practice into play and having some major success. Also I really didn't care if they asked me to leave because I doubt I will ever be in that town again. I know that I was extremely lucky and that variance was very much in my favor but I was without question playing at an advantage.

The next step for me is refining my bet spreads and committing the Ill 18 and fab 4 to memory. I love playing the game and though I don't aspire to be a pro I find the studying to be theurapeutic and challenging.

Good for you. Had the cards been just a bit different, your story could have been:

After spreading 5-25 and breaking even, i said screw it and started spreading 25-100. I lost a few hands and was at 400 when i got 77 vs a dealer 6. I split and got two 3's and doubled down and got two 20's. Dealer backed into a 21. I knew I was playing well, just unlucky.

Congrats on playing well, and glad you saw the upside of the variance.

Glad to hear it worked out for you! Indeed as you know this was quite the variance. If you only had $500, I also hope you know how lucky it was that you didn't go bust given you were spreading $25-$100 with only $500. That could be all wiped out in ONE hand =p. I just want to touch on bankroll management, not the variance. If you wanted to regularly play that game, and your $25-$100 spread, you'd need something like a $20k bankroll to get your risk of ruin (RoR) below 1%. On your regular trips though you'd probably take $1k-$2k. So your $500 certainly lasted you!

That's really awesome they also gave you a room. When you said they were encouraging you to get a card it sounds like they wanted your info to ban you (because to get a card they'll ask you for your ID). You might not care about that casino, but what if they share information within a network and your name is now in a database that follows you to Vegas, or your hometown casinos? When you're up $1900, sometimes finding a cheap motel for $50 is worth it rather than giving out your info for that "free" room =). The fact that they did give you a room seems good of them, but my oh my did you "camp out" at their casino/pit. Usually camping out is the easiest way to get noticed. So it sounds like you got lucky twice!

All in all, congrats on the success and that the hard work paid off for once. Always love hearing someone put the effort in and be able to reap the rewards!

Thanks for the wise words Romes. I am well aware that I got extremely lucky with regards to variance. I am shocked that they did literally nothing when it was blatantly obvious that I was Counting. I mean just blatant wong out's in negative counts, obvious bet spreading, etc. I really wasn't trying to camo at all bc I really didn't care if they banned me or anything. You are 100% right that the free room was a ploy to get my info. I will definitely think twice about that in future exploits. Again thanks for all your advice.

Quote: surrender88s

If you only wonged in at 3+ true count, you would be spending something like 90% of your time watching people play blackjack. Is that what you want?

That's why I don't Wong. Standing there for 10 minutes to wait for a 6D game to go +3 TC to make 75 cents on a $25 bet? Forget it.

Wonging in? Wonging out? Once the game gets that laborious I'll fold up my tent.

Now once about 17 years ago at the Golden Nugget downtown I walked up to a SD game where the first round had been played and all the cards were on the layout. Lots of 4s, 5s, 2s and such. Bought in for $400 black and placed my $100 wager. The dealer was gracious enough to let me win.

Built-in Wong, yes. Stand around for 7.5 cents a minute. Pffffffh.

Quote: Greasyjohn

That's why I don't Wong. Standing there for 10 minutes to wait for a 6D game to go +3 TC to make 75 cents on a $25 bet? Forget it.

Wonging in? Wonging out? Once the game gets that laborious I'll fold up my tent.

Now once about 17 years ago at the Golden Nugget downtown I walked up to a SD game where the first round had been played and all the cards were on the layout. Lots of 4s, 5s, 2s and such. Bought in for $400 black and placed my $100 wager. The dealer was gracious enough to let me win.

Built-in Wong, yes.

I love your stories, GJ. And I a jealous as hell, I wasn't around during that time. I was in middle school and high school in the late 90's. :/

But the fact is those SD games are long gone and unless you have a time machine you want to share, we deal with what we have available today. With crappier 6 deck games, with rules like dealer hit soft 17 making for a larger house edge, it becomes difficult to apply that play all approach. Just too many negative counts to overcome. You need a large spread, huge bankroll and a sh*tload of patience.

Getting out of at least some of those negative counts significantly improves your win rate. Wonging is the way to do that. Now, personally, I am not a big fan of wonging in. During crowded times, you can back count and when the count gets right, there are no seats open. During non crowded times, back counting looks pretty obvious and suspicious.

So, I have gone with the play off the top, but exit at least some of the negative counts. This really helps. You don't need the spread that you would for a play all approach. I personally, wong out very aggressively, exiting even mild negative counts, because I have other games to jump to nearby. Often times, I am 'tracking' two tables simultaneously and can jump from a neutral count directly to a better count, which is super beneficial.

Other players, don't wong out quite so aggressively, but they do get out of at least the worst of the negative counts, which still helps considerably. Even if you are playing a place with limited tables and table hopping options, just a well timed bathroom break or phone call during the worst of the counts helps a great deal.

I am probably not going to convince a veteran like yourself to change styles, but...you might keep an open mind. It really helps. :)

Quote: kewlj

I love your stories, GJ. And I a jealous as hell, I wasn't around during that time. I was in middle school and high school in the late 90's. :/

But the fact is those SD games are long gone and unless you have a time machine you want to share, we deal with what we have available today. With crappier 6 deck games, with rules like dealer hit soft 17 making for a larger house edge, it becomes difficult to apply that play all approach. Just too many negative counts to overcome. You need a large spread, huge bankroll and a sh*tload of patience.

Getting out of at least some of those negative counts significantly improves your win rate. Wonging is the way to do that. Now, personally, I am not a big fan of wonging in. During crowded times, you can back count and when the count gets right, there are no seats open. During non crowded times, back counting looks pretty obvious and suspicious.

So, I have gone with the play off the top, but exit at least some of the negative counts. This really helps. You don't need the spread that you would for a play all approach. I personally, wong out very aggressively, exiting even mild negative counts, because I have other games to jump to nearby. Often times, I am 'tracking' two tables simultaneously and can jump from a neutral count directly to a better count, which is super beneficial.

Other players, don't wong out quite so aggressively, but they do get out of at least the worst of the negative counts, which still helps considerably. Even if you are playing a place with limited tables and table hopping options, just a well timed bathroom break or phone call during the worst of the counts helps a great deal.

I am probably not going to convince a veteran like yourself to change styles, but...you might keep an open mind. It really helps. :)

I aways listen to your advice KJ. And if I was playing 6D in a -3 count or so I would definetly Wong out. But I play DD and things don't stay bad for long. Even at DD I've taken the phantom phone call. My mannerisms and body language--my tone and emphasis--I can take a great phantom call and meet up with my phantom significant other for lunch with so much enthusiasm that surveillance gets hungry.

I once remember playing DD with one other player at the table. No blackjacks but like six aces came out in the first round. I left the betting square-logo-circle empty and said something about not wanting to play "now." Even a moron would do the same thing so I didn't care what the pit thought. (When the pit gets testy with my sitting out after seeing six aces come out in the first round, it's time to find a pit that appreciates the obvious.)

If you like my stories I should at least touch upon the 1976 trip I made to Vegas where me and my then-girlfriend, Patty, stayed at the Fremont. They had a swiimming pool atop their parking structure back then. I think the parking structure was only two levels. Then they got rid of the pool and built some more stories to the parking structure.

I was only 22 on this trip so my sexual passions had not yet matured to allow myself to experience the joys that I can now take advantage of. (I'm over at my new love's house and I read this paragraph to her and she said that I should be called Sleazyjohn. Chris has a devestating wit.

Anyway, Patty and I went to see The Omen at a local theater. After we came back to the Fremont I placed $3 on Hard Six (get it?). It hit! (9.09% -EV!!)

Quote: Greasyjohn

After we came back to the Fremont I placed $3 on Hard Six (get it?). It hit!

Hard Six, hun? Are you Irish heritage? I've heard that referred to as the "Irish curse". :)

Quote: kewlj

Hard Six, hun? Are you Irish heritage? I've heard that referred to as the "Irish curse". :)

I've never heard that before. And I haven't made a hard way bet in 30 years.

Quote: nemesiscc16

I wanted to give a report. So as luck would have it I never made it to vegas. Instead I went to Wendover. Wendover offers some extremely favorable black jack games. The place I played has SD, DA2, solid penetration. House edge of only .16%. Well I stopped in at 3;00 pm and didn't stop playing til about 1:30 am. I know perfect BS and count perfectly. The only index plays I used regularly were insurance and 10 v. 16. I had spent easily over 100 hours studying before I stepped foot in the casino. Initially I was spreading 5 to 25 on the low stakes table with a 500$ bankroll. I was basically even for the first 2 hours. At that point I was like screw it and went to the 25$ min table. Spreading 25-100 I came up 1900$. I was blatantly counting and leaving the table often at -2 or below. I walked away around 10 times with 150$ish or more in winnings and before I knew it I was up some serious $. One major factor was that as it got later it was just myself and the dealer at the table. The only camo I employed was pretending to be drunker than I was and pretending to take a few phone calls. This had to be pretty obvious to the pit bosses who were watching pretty closely but they didn't seem to care at all. In fact they insisted I get a players card which led to me getting a free room. Really fun experience putting all my practice into play and having some major success. Also I really didn't care if they asked me to leave because I doubt I will ever be in that town again. I know that I was extremely lucky and that variance was very much in my favor but I was without question playing at an advantage.

The next step for me is refining my bet spreads and committing the Ill 18 and fab 4 to memory. I love playing the game and though I don't aspire to be a pro I find the studying to be theurapeutic and challenging.

You're hooked!