Blackjack game with 0.75% player advantage

I'm sure I've heard examples recently of how a machine on the floor of a casino was programmed wrong, a little differently from its neighbors, and people were milking it for dollars while they could.

Quote: Dalex64

I'm sure I've heard examples recently of how a machine on the floor of a casino was programmed wrong, a little differently from its neighbors, and people were milking it for dollars while they could.

Heard? You may not want to kill a golden goose, but can you show any example of a game where everyone won? Not one where a few took from those who didn't understand when to play.

Quote: TXLouder

Fair enough. But who are the innocent? Are they:

a. The casino operators who profit -- perhaps without malice, but nevertheless do profit -- from demonstrably gaffed apparatus?

b. The sharps who read this site and take a gamble after due consideration of the risks?

c. The squares who don't even know they've been fleeced?

The answer is (a). Assuming this was a bug and they fixed it, they were on the blacklist for two or three months and a lot of bad publicity was generated here. They need to have some incentive to fix their software and compensate affected players and that incentive is getting removed from the blacklist.

Quote: Wizard

The answer is (a). Assuming this was a bug and they fixed it, they were on the blacklist for two or three months and a lot of bad publicity was generated here. They need to have some incentive to fix their software and compensate affected players and that incentive is getting removed from the blacklist.

My only question is, with all due respect, why give them a 2nd chance? In time they may find out it is far more profitable to cheat and will do it again.

If they are honest and made a mistake, they have plenty of outlets to advertise, get customers and make money the legitimate way.

And if they are cheaters, paying this money back is a drop in the bucket compared to what they can make screwing customers.

I see it as one chance to get it right and if you screw up, you lose, move on and open up as a new company, which many do,

Whereas you have a rep that most believe in as a straight shooter who is there for the players. Why risk it on these guys? If they made an honest mistake, they have options to make it up and move on. You on the other hand are risking your rep on these guys mea culpa. For $5000?

Maybe you believe in people more than I do, but I see no business advantage to giving these guys another chance.

Those are all very valid points. I don't know what else I can add to contribute to the discussion. It really comes down to my belief in giving people the benefit of the doubt.

This decision is really concerning to me. The incentive should be that they no longer have unfair software and you note on the blacklist that they state that the software is fixed. However, at no time should proven cheaters be removed from the blacklist, it will actually hurt YOUR reputation.

The snarky response to this inevitably would be "how long until Mission2Game advertises on WoO or WoV"

Quote: drmario

This decision is really concerning to me. The incentive should be that they no longer have unfair software and you note on the blacklist that they state that the software is fixed. However, at no time should proven cheaters be removed from the blacklist, it will actually hurt YOUR reputation.

I think cheating means to deliberately defraud players. If it was accidental, and they make amends, then I wouldn't call that cheating.

You are welcome to take from this what you wish.

I don't know how many people among those voting to never remove M2G from the Blacklist actually have a dog in the race, financially. I concur 100% with the Wizard that there must be some sort of incentive to ensure that the casino in question does the right thing by refunding affected players.

Keep in mind that I also believe that the casino should do the right thing regardless of whether or not that results in them being taken off of the Blacklist, but I would view Blacklist removal as an insurance policy.

Perhaps a happy medium would be for the Review of the casino to state that they were once on the Blacklist, explain the conditions under which that was the case and that they remedied the situation and are thus removed from the Blacklist. That way, anyone looking at the Review can draw their own conclusion as to whether or not they want to play there.

I am one of the people financially affected by this, and I do think that, for the Blacklist to be a valid tool, there has to be a way to improve to get off of it. Otherwise, it becomes stale and diminishes in value. The incentive benefits not only the reformed or corrected operator, but this site as well, by reporting the facts as they change and supporting the guarantee the site provides via the click-through warranties.

It's possible there should either be a more stringent verification process either in time or procedure before removal takes place, or that the site should agree to random follow-up evaluation, but I'm not a professional evaluator so not qualified to suggest specifics. It's also possible that the information on problems, resolution, and relevant time frame should be retained in the casino listing for some time after resolution as a caution to future players, but perhaps after a specified period of good faith operations, that "asterisk" could be removed.

Lets say it was a bug and they pay back players and fix it.

Didn't they have some very dubious T&C's that they should've been blacklisted for anyways? Something about them giving out your information?

What about the spam and phone calls? I still get calls from them, one call was about 2 or 3 weeks ago. I never told them to stop calling, but I didn't ask for them to call in the first place.

I think they are just adding $40 to everyone's. Account

2015-09-29 09:25:02 Real Cash Manual $40.00

IMO that's really not doing us a big favor lots of online casino give free money to play with. can you even cash out $40? or is it just under the limit?

They already rectified every published reason they were put on the blacklist, including the "rule 20," which threatened sharing player personal information.

I am told the money already put in Wizard player accounts is fully cashable. However, I would wait to see what comes of the blackjack investigation before bothering with a cash out. You very well could get more.

Quote: Wizard

...I am told the money already put in Wizard player accounts is fully cashable. However, I would wait to see what comes of the blackjack investigation before bothering with a cash out. You very well could get more.

Fully cashable if you give them your SSN, Drivers Liscence, Scan your debit/credit card, send them 2 utility bills, etc, etc, etc... Yeah, which of us wants to give this shady site all of that information?

Quote: Romes

Fully cashable if you give them your SSN, Drivers Liscence, Scan your debit/credit card, send them 2 utility bills, etc, etc, etc... Yeah, which of us wants to give this shady site all of that information?

If you read the fine print you also have to sacrifice your first born child.

Quote: Wizard

They already rectified every published reason they were put on the blacklist, including the "rule 20," which threatened sharing player personal information.

I am told the money already put in Wizard player accounts is fully cashable. However, I would wait to see what comes of the blackjack investigation before bothering with a cash out. You very well could get more.

Well that's certainly some very good progress. Thanks for setting them straight hopefully they will stay on the straight and narrow and all the problems were legitimate mistakes/bugs made out of ignorance.

They should give full refunds rigged BJ or not as a penalty. As we seen from some of the live chat they didn't take customer complaints seriously as was evident when they claimed there slots were paying correctly. I'm wondering how many non WOV customers were affected by this. I can only imagine the casino made many thousands because of this. That must have affected the payback drastically.

Quote: Wizard

The VP Game rules state this "The game screen will automatically designate the cards that give you the highest percentage of winning with the word ‘Hold’ written over the symbol."
H H H H D
VP auto hold/play is horrible. Here is just one hand on there version of 9/6 job. A♠ K♠ 10♠ 4♠ 8♣


Moon poker( 9/6 equivalent ?) Maybe it has a bonus feature for multiple 10's? I looked for something special because it wanted me to hold a lone 10 over J 10 ss I'm certain about this mistake, but lets pretend my finger accidentally clicked off the J hold.

Here's more.
H H H D H
A♣ 2♣ 3♣ 6♣ 4♠ WTF? turn my 4 flush into a inside straight draw.... seriously?

6♦7♦8♦2♣3♣ discard EVERYTHING (I love 678 ss)

This was in a very short period of time, less than 20 hands. It made what I consider blatant mistakes often. I can understand if it made a few mistakes like hold A 10 or it disregarded penalties.

Thanks Axel for that warning above. I'll confirm it and then pass it along to them.

My main reason for writing is that I'm happy to say that refunds should be in your accounts. They should be for the full amount of all deposits, which seemed to be the case for me, if I remember my deposit history correctly.

So, please check your accounts and let me know if you're happy or unhappy with what you see. I'm told these funds are fully cashable.

Here's my experience to this point.

Logged in to my account and looked at the withdrawal page. This is it:






There are no options for withdrawal, though the top caption says there are many.

There are several options still available for deposit:






On my comps page, there is a transaction log:






Note the top of the pages shows me with a credit of $200.

The withdrawal page says if I need assistance to contact customer service, which I did. Here is the conversation in full:
(Times are US Mountain Time Zone)

18:53:03 Mark: Hello, Welcome to Mission2Game. How are you Barbara?
18:54:14 Barbara: Hi, Mark! I was a client in May, and found some problems with the games, so requested a refund through the Wizard of Vegas.
18:54:42 Barbara: I see that you've deposited my initial balance in my account, and cancelled all of my comp points.
18:54:47 Mark: Hi there :)
18:55:16 Barbara: However, there are no withdrawal options on that page, though there are many on the deposit page.
18:55:36 Barbara: Could you please advise me on how to do a withdrawal? Thank you!
18:57:00 Mark: Well, as I checked with your account your deposit was unblocked due to our management decision.
18:58:30 Mark: The software was under maintenance all the wilds are paying now, in the past only on wild was paying in the combination according to the internal rules.
18:58:50 Mark: You could have another try out of our games.
18:59:02 Mark: I can assure you that you won't be disappointed.
18:59:45 Mark: What do you think?
19:07:39 Barbara: Please pass my thanks to your management for rectifying the software problems and returning my cash amount to my balance. However, it means less than it should if I am not able to withdraw my deposit and re-start a relationship with your company from the beginning. After all, your management cancelled their entire obligation to me with the withdrawal of the comp points I had earned, so it seems correct to me that my cash deposit should be returned, and we will both be made whole. Does that not make sense?
19:08:53 Mark: I can surely understand and accept your point of view.
Mark is typing...
19:09:28 Mark: However I am only an agent here, you might have to send us an email regarding this matter and you will receive a proper answer.
19:10:34 Mark: The email address is support@mission2game.com, please write there as many details as you can and you will get a proper resolution
19:12:27 Barbara:I will do that. Thank you for your time!
19:12:58 Mark: Always my pleasure.

So now I have to write them an email asking for my money back, even though they told the Wizard the money was fully withdrawable. Me, I think if they were honoring what they told the Wizard, they would have activated the withdrawal function on my account, so I'm skeptical about their willingness to do so. I'll keep the forum advised on whether I get my money back, and how long it takes and how many people I have to go through to do it.

Getting the proper process for your refund may be harder than figuring out who is on first.

Thanks for the report, Barb. Please do write to their management and see what they come back with. Let's give them every chance to make things right. It has been a matter of months so far so what is a few more days? Your correspondence was very amicable and I suggest sticking with that tone.

I would like to show, too, in the interest of fairness, I signed in to play for free, as I don't want to mess with my real money account, and spun a slot until I got a 1st position wild winner.




As you can see, the wild on reel 1 did activate a win with the blue pinatas on reel 2 and 3, where before that would not have been a win. So they did correct this problem (that I had previously reported to them).

Interestingly, the bonus game, which is triggered by 3 orange pinatas on reels 1, 3, and 5, has random picks. I got it twice in my first 20 spins. The second screen has 10 piñata symbols on which you click, revealing dollar amounts from $10-100 at my bet level. (After the round, the unchosen pinatas show their value.) Your picks are added to make a bonus total.

The thing I found odd was, the first time I triggered the bonus, I got 3 picks. The second time, I got 5. But the paytable shows it's a scatter pay, not determined by symbols on pay lines, so I don't know why there were different amounts of picks, but I did notice that in the first one, there were 2 $100 picks and 1 $50 pick, and the rest were less. In the second one, there was 1 $50 pick, and the rest were lower amounts. Just FWIW.

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for the report, Barb. Please do write to their management and see what they come back with. Let's give them every chance to make things right. It has been a matter of months so far so what is a few more days? Your correspondence was very amicable and I suggest sticking with that tone.

I do not see any refund in my account... Let me give you a quick summary of my account though:

1) I ended with a zero balance some time back, within a few days of depositing $200 for the max deposit bonus.
2) They deposited $50 to my account, as they did some others I guess for a "bonus?" This was a complete surprise to me as I didn't request that and I was patiently waiting (with a zero balance) to hear back IF the Wiz was working with them on a resolution.
3) Before the Wizard made his first post about working with them, I thought all was lost. I attempted to lose the $50 by flailing hard and got lucky enough to win a couple hands before I had to do something and thus my balance was up to $254.50.
4) I haven't touched my account in any way since the Wiz said they were working with them on an actual resolution (months).
5) I do not have ANY "Real Money" balance. The $254.50 is only in my BONUS BALANCE.

Not only am I pretty sure I couldn't withdraw a "bonus balance" anyways but I also have zero options for a Withdraw. At no point has my account been credited with the $200 original deposit in to the "Real Money" balance.

I believe to make us both "whole" again they can take the bonus balance, any "points" I've earned, and then put $200 in to my "Real Money" balance for me to withdraw.

Lastly, if they're willing to credit us the $200 back, why can't they simply refund us in the way we deposited (via card for me for example)? Are they MAKING us go through the hassle of sending them 5-6 personal documents with a lot of confidential information? That's like "Yeah, you can have your deposit back, if you wait several months, give us ALL of your personal information (id, address, CC, etc), and then hopefully you get it because no one's actually Withdrawn from here."

Quote: Romes

I do not see any refund in my account... Let me give you a quick summary of my account though:

Your case sounds complicated. Even I would say it doesn't seem fair that you should keep your winnings and get a refund of the deposit.

The fair thing to me would seem to me that you can either continue playing with the $254 and try to complete the play through requirement or forfeit it and get your $50 back. My advice would be to do the former. Make some Hail Mary bets to try to get to $1,000 or so and if you make it grind out the play-through.

Quote: Wizard

Your case sounds complicated. Even I would say it doesn't seem fair that you should keep your winnings and get a refund of the deposit.

The fair thing to me would seem to me that you can either continue playing with the $254 and try to complete the play through requirement or forfeit it and get your $50 back. My advice would be to do the former. Make some Hail Mary bets to try to get to $1,000 or so and if you make it grind out the play-through.

The play through seems like it'd take years, and my initial deposit was $200... let alone who knows how fraudulent their site still is or will be. They've proven, whether they were aware or not, to be unfair and that's not somewhere I'd like to give my action.

As stated in my previous post, I'd LOVE to forfeit anything in my account and simply have my original $200 buy in refunded back to me. Then comes the question that Babs had of how do you even get your money back?

For a full refund see the guy on 1st. Who's on first, I don't know ? Third base.
Makes more sense than thinking you will get the $200.
Hope I am wrong!

Quote: Wizard

Your case sounds complicated. Even I would say it doesn't seem fair that you should keep your winnings and get a refund of the deposit.

The fair thing to me would seem to me that you can either continue playing with the $254 and try to complete the play through requirement or forfeit it and get your $50 back. My advice would be to do the former. Make some Hail Mary bets to try to get to $1,000 or so and if you make it grind out the play-through.

Is there any way that the casino could put all the money owed to your players in your account and then you can take care of your players without all of us having to do all the ID and banking crap. It would be less work for them and less work for us. Win Win situation.

I understand that they think people will just blow it back to avoid the complicated cash out procedures(that Fax-Back form BS. really isn't to protect anyone, its a clever stalling tactic, they should only need to do it when something looks suspicious or when it's for large amounts). If they want to rebuild their reputation they should make it as easy on us as possible and show us that they really are going to change.

If I knew they didn't have gaffed games and they sent me a bonus offer that I felt was good, I would play there again, assuming they actually pay players who win without any BS.

How and who will verify the casino Blackjack is fair?

Personally I don't this can be done by playing the smallest denominations on blackjack.

P.T. Barnum would enjoy reading this thread.

Quote: HowMany

P.T. Barnum would enjoy reading this thread.

THIS WAY TO THE EGRESS

Quote: Romes

As stated in my previous post, I'd LOVE to forfeit anything in my account and simply have my original $200 buy in refunded back to me. Then comes the question that Babs had of how do you even get your money back?

You should have that option. I recommend that you write to them explaining the situation, asking only for your original $200 back.

Quote: AxelWolf

Is there any way that the casino could put all the money owed to your players in your account and then you can take care of your players without all of us having to do all the ID and banking crap. It would be less work for them and less work for us. Win Win situation.

I would cooperate with that, but I don't think they will allow it.

Let me put this out there -- if anybody transfers money to my account, and I successfully get it out, I will pay promptly pay it back to you. However, I've almost never heard of an Internet casino allowing player to player transfers.

How much more evidence is needed to realize they are shysters?

Just blackball them and be done with it. Everyone's money is in purgatory. I think I will look into starting an offshore casino. Like another poster said, " PT Barnum",smiling down that his statements hold true to this day.

Quote: Wizard

I would cooperate with that, but I don't think they will allow it.

Let me put this out there -- if anybody transfers money to my account, and I successfully get it out, I will pay promptly pay it back to you. However, I've almost never heard of an Internet casino allowing player to player transfers.

Full Tilt poker had a player to player transfer option in their main menus.

I agree with you though, I highly doubt they'd go for this, especially since it appears they've already issued 'some' of the refunds.

Has anyone successfully been refunded and withdrawn from the site?

Quote: Romes

Full Tilt poker had a player to player transfer option in their main menus.

I agree with you though, I highly doubt they'd go for this, especially since it appears they've already issued 'some' of the refunds.

Has anyone successfully been refunded and withdrawn from the site?

Speaking for myself: Not yet. I'm following the steps they outlined to me. Still no response to my email. Still no withdrawal options on my account.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Speaking for myself: Not yet. I'm following the steps they outlined to me. Still no response to my email. Still no withdrawal options on my account.

Mike, I would like to propose an idea... For you to verify my hypothesis:

Hypothesis - They are intentionally delaying/ignoring any of us that want our refund. They're doing everything in their power to stop/delay/or get us to keep playing.

Test - Send them an e-mail from a new email account about depositing. Send them an e-mail and simply ask "Hi I was wondering if you could help me deposit. I've never done any online gambling but you guys have such big bonuses I'm going to give it a shot! What are the steps I need to take to deposit?"

Babs has been waiting what, a day? I'll take the UNDER on 1 day that they get back to you... What would be more interesting is if they get back to you within like 10 minutes. This would just prove they're being scummy/deceitful even in their attempt to "right" things.

Why does he have to do it? You could easily do the same.

Quote: GWAE

Why does he have to do it? You could easily do the same.

You're not wrong, but Mike is the one they told the funds would be "fully withdrawable". So maybe Mike would want to see for himself, not that I'm saying he should do it. I don't think he should because it's against their rules to have more than 1 account per person, and he's the one requiring them to follow both their own rules and the rules of fair gaming.

Who's on first all over again.

guys. come check out my story .I started my first blog. about blackjack

ps. your all talking about a computer game that sounds too good to be true.. lets think about that

Quote: GWAE

Why does he have to do it? You could easily do the same.

I could do it, and then someone might question whether or not I made it up. While I could post the pictures of text I wouldn't be posting my e-mail by any means. Mike also stated he wants to think this was all bugs in their software, and not that they intentionally deceived players with poor games. I think it's fairly obvious with how difficult they're making it that their intentions, are intentional.

Well, I don't know about Babs status (or anyone elses), but being as objective as I like to be, I am clearly compelled to report that did just get back to me, and it "looks" promising:

Quote: Mission2Game

Dear Romes,

Hope this email finds you well.

We would like to bring to your attention that we have considered your request and made the refund in amount of 200 $ on your credit card.

Plesae be informed that, according to the TaxAct website, credit card refunds can take anywhere from two to 30 days before they are complete. The first 24 to 48 hours of this period involve the initial refund with the credit card company. But credit card companies use major banks to supply the funds they lend to cardholders to make purchases, which means that the credit card's policies as well as the bank's policies can delay the refund.

In case that in a period of 30 days you do not get back the funds, please let us know so we could file a report and deeply investigate.


Thank you for your feedback and patience.

We wish you a good rest of the day and you are always wellcome to our casino .


Best regards,

Mission2Game Finance Department

We hope this response has sufficiently answered your questions. If not, please do not send another email. Instead, reply to this email.

In my email to them I stressed that them refunding my card directly was easiest for all parties and that it would help restore some faith in their site. Apparently they're saying this is what they've done, so now I just play the waiting game and see if this actually credits. I'm torn whether or not this will actually work lol.

Good luck Romes. You're one of my favorite guys here. I hope you get your money back.

However, I remain very skeptical. Seems like they just "blew you off" for a period of 30-days. I hope I'm wrong.

Babs status quo: no answer to my email via email. Found a note in my m2g account dated this am saying they would prefer I played the money at their casino, but if I insist they will make arrangements to return it to me if I reply to that. I have replied requesting they return my money via the Visa I used to deposit it.

The 30 day part is bs but hopefully it goes through for you

Quote: Wizard

I would cooperate with that, but I don't think they will allow it.

Let me put this out there -- if anybody transfers money to my account, and I successfully get it out, I will pay promptly pay it back to you. However, I've almost never heard of an Internet casino allowing player to player transfers.

I should've explained myself better. The casino themselves could put all the money in your account
Whomever chooses to could simply send them an email with account information along with the mention of the situation. Hi my name is AxelWolf Please deposits my "bug" refund money to your affiliate ambassador The Wizard

No need for a peer to peer transfer or anything.

------------------------------------------------------

Today I checked my account and they gave me $160 added to the $40 from the other day, I played that off (I guess still had $10)

Withdrawal option
Complete your Mission2Game Casino withdrawal quickly and securely by clicking on one of our payment options below. For assistance, please contact Customer Services.

payment option Bank wire only for US players $200 to $6000.

I'm going to play for a large enough amount to make it worth sending documents. Probably this weekend while i'm on the plane flying.

Good luck romes. That would be impressive if they did a refund without all of the verification

I'm wondering if the amount they refunded to my account can be used for a bonus? If the games are halfway legitimate there should be some value I believe I seen 25x wagering requirements. I'm willing to give them a second chance on VP or slots assuming it's +EV. I haven't read the bonus rules for VP. They seem to send enough bonuses that it could be worthwhile especially if you're at the airport or doing something boring.

Yesterday I got an email from Mission2Game staying that my $200 deposit had been refunded to my account if I wanted to play again, and to email them back if I wanted it refunded to my card. I emailed back asking for the refund, and today I got a reply saying the refund has happened, and to wait 2-30 days for it to go through.

I'll report back when the refund is complete.

I got the same answer this morning to my reply of yesterday requesting a full refund of my deposit; has been credited to the Visa I used to make it, and to expect a 2-30 day wait for it.

Romes first request to cash out was May 7th. Gee, what great customer service !