Planning a Trip out to Vegas...Any suggested good games out there, at the green chip level?

I wonder if a casino will call up other casino's to alert them they just backed somebody off. Eighter dropping the name (if they know it) or sending a picture over. Does anybody have incite on this?

I know they definitely do it for their sister properties, but will they do it to their competition. I would think they wouldn't, since they would be more than happy for their competing casino's to have them beat for money. Unless, they have the mentality, that they would want the same phone call or courtesy for their neighboring competing casino's to alert then there is a counter in town and to watch out.

Quote: sabre

Show me a single instance of asset forfeiture involving a tourist at an airport with Vegas as an origin or destination.

I didn't say it has happened, but it sure could.

Quote: stabworld

I wonder if a casino will call up other casino's to alert them they just backed somebody off. Eighter dropping the name (if they know it) or sending a picture over. Does anybody have incite on this?

I know they definitely do it for their sister properties, but will they do it to their competition. I would think they wouldn't, since they would be more than happy for their competing casino's to have them beat for money. Unless, they have the mentality, that they would want the same phone call or courtesy for their neighboring competing casino's to alert then there is a counter in town and to watch out.

It's called getting fliered. Which most definitely happened, if you were playing rated and they know your name and have a pic of you.

Don't play rated, especially when you've already gotten backed off using that card.

Quote: sabre

Show me a single instance of asset forfeiture involving a tourist at an airport with Vegas as an origin or destination.

Google Fiore v. Walden.

Quote: teddys

Google Fiore v. Walden.

I withdraw my comment.

Wow, pits are real quick to pick up the phone out here in vegas and request a skills check. The instant my first bet reached a 1-4 spread on a double deck - like clockwork, the pit goes right to the phone. Maybe not all of them are asking for a skills check, but I definitely overhead one, say the table number on which I was playing. Are they really this paranoid out here in Vegas? (maybe its just me being paranoid, since this is new territory for me, being a far cry from the east coast)

I notice 90% of the dealers, will yell out "check play" the second they see a bet increased reaching a 1-4 spread. (double deck and 6 deck games).

Another thing I notice is: dealers and pits never ask me for a players card, when I sit at the table, or even while i'm flat betting the table min, (they pay no mind) - as soon as they see increased bets, their like vultures, "Do you have a card Sir?". I'm thinking to myself, (oh, you couldn't care less about me earning comps, while I'm flat betting the table min, slowly but surely flushing my money away, on neautral and negative counts, but as soon as I ramp up my bets, you want to take notice, and figure out who I am). "Get the hell out of here!"

Not a good 1st trip so far, after about 7-8 hours of play, I'm down a little over 3k, and been backed off twice. In addition my goal was to put in 30 hours while out here for the 7 days. I'm at the start of my 5th day, and only have 7-8 hours logged. Ive been spending half my time researching games and planning my rotation. Not too mention, I took the first day off to rest from my 10 hours of travel time. No way I'm going to reach my 30 hour goal. I underestimated the amount of time, it takes to travel from casino to casino by foot (strip), especially with all the mazes you have to walk through to get over to the other side of the streets and intersections.

I want to get opinions from other BJ AP'ers:

What do you suggest is a reasonable spread (in general) on:

(a) double deck,
(b) 6 deck, and
(c) 8 deck shoe games

which would not draw too much heat in the Vegas area?

I understand its dependent upon the tolerance level of the casino, as well as what other players may be betting at the same table as you. This question would be on a general basis, with the assumption, your playing heads up, or one other player at the table, betting the table min.

Quote: Romes

Edit - DJTeddyBear made an interactive google maps site and linked it a long time ago. It had all of the casinos on and around the strip. I used this to plan out my route last trip. I can't find the link, but hopefully he'll see this and re-post it? Or you could just PM him.

Ive been using google maps. Thanks for the info.

Quote: stabworld

Wow, pits are real quick to pick up the phone out here in vegas and request a skills check.

Then your act is not good enough. I don't think I've ever had a pit boss pick up the phone and call anyone as a direct result of my play. This is in probably 80 hours of Vegas play, almost all of it at DD. I've had backoffs occur due to playing at one place for too long, but I can promise you that it had nothing to do with the pit personnel. It was simply security reviewing my play after some big wins.

Unless you have some very seasoned vet at your pit, the pit boss should never have any inkling of what you're doing. You should not be staring at the cards. You should not have any sort of serious expression on your face. You should not be mouthing numbers. Nothing about you should look any different from a regular gambler.

Invite the pit boss to watch. Engage in conversation. Explain just how bad your luck is. Predict how the dealer is going to beat you with the stiff hand he just revealed before he actually does. Let the boss know that you deserve that big win you just got. Play the part. If you're not fooling the pit personnel which are almost always clueless, then you're literally not going to fool anyone.

Quote: stabworld

The properties I was backed off at, wasn't the double deck games I spread 1-12. It was my own fault, I play rated at both the properties I was backed off at. 1 of which was a sister property of a casino I was restricted at back in AC. They must of had notations in the computer about me.

The 2nd property, I'm not really sure what happened there, I think I just played to long. Played on 1 shift a double deck game, (40 minutes), with only a 1-4 spread. Then the next shift a double deck game with a 1-6 spread (an hour and a half). I stayed longer on the 2nd shift, because the pits weren't showing any interest in my play, I figured I'd just keep playing. Probably the eye in the sky was watching though.

Why on Earth you would think it a good idea to even PLAY at your "comp" property (sister or not) is beyond me. If I'm staying at Hotel X, and they're in the same property group as Y and Z, I won't even go count at Y or Z. There's literally TOO MANY places to hit in Vegas, why even gamble your hotel stay with these? I'm sorry if this is beating a dead horse, I just hope you learned and I hope others reading this will learn from your mistakes.

Also, you play too long. You need to keep your sessions less than an hour. Again, there are literally TOO MANY places to play in Vegas! Who cares if you're down $100 here and you want to get back to even before moving on. Not every session can be a winning one. Play your hour (or possibly until you expose your max bet) then move on. Casino bosses won't think much of you because you're gone in the blink of an eye. They'll never be the wiser... and that's the plan.

Quote: stabworld

I wonder if a casino will call up other casino's to alert them they just backed somebody off. Eighter dropping the name (if they know it) or sending a picture over. Does anybody have incite on this?

I know they definitely do it for their sister properties, but will they do it to their competition. I would think they wouldn't, since they would be more than happy for their competing casino's to have them beat for money. Unless, they have the mentality, that they would want the same phone call or courtesy for their neighboring competing casino's to alert then there is a counter in town and to watch out.

Yes. As was mentioned prior it's called getting flyered. This is 'usually' in respect to your location in Vegas. If you get it on the strip, you can still play no problem off strip (stations, GVR, sams town area, etc). If you get it at Sams, then you might have problems at cannery, longhorn, etc that are near by. So if you got it on the strip, you might have problems on the strip in general, especially if you were playing the $50 min games.

Quote: stabworld

...What do you suggest is a reasonable spread (in general) on:

(a) double deck,
(b) 6 deck, and
(c) 8 deck shoe games

which would not draw too much heat in the Vegas area?

I understand its dependent upon the tolerance level of the casino, as well as what other players may be betting at the same table as you. This question would be on a general basis, with the assumption, your playing heads up, or one other player at the table, betting the table min.

As you said it's quite situational and dependent on other variables, but with that verbiage warning out of the way, my answers:
a) 8-1 (if you're playing $50 min or $100 min then I'd even say 6-1).
b) 1-15. You're only going to get a big bet or two off before being tosses, so this requires short sessions (as all of the spreads do really). Also, I've played at places that sweated 1-10 6 deck NICKELS... and others that didn't even look at my 1-20 6 deck spread. You'll have to feel this out on your own.
c) same as b...

Lastly, GreenChipBaron had some excellent comments/advice. Your act sounds weak. You might also not have needed much cover at your home games, but in Vegas you might need to employ a bit more cover... At a DD game, the first time you up your bet, do it in a negative count. Buy in for short amounts so you have to keep rebuying and making it look like you're chasing losses. Engage in conversation with the pit to the point he's trying to 'get away' from you, the 'chatty cathy' customer... etc.

I must've been lucky a few years ago. I spread way higher than 1-6 on some of the sweatiest of DD games on the strip and surely played more than an hour/session. Also used no "act." Probably wouldn't try it now though. Someone here can vouch for me.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I must've been lucky a few years ago. I spread way higher than 1-6 on some of the sweatiest of DD games on the strip and surely played more than an hour/session. Also used no "act." Probably wouldn't try it now though. Someone here can vouch for me.

But if you come to the WOV Meetup you can show us =P. I'll be the guy spreading 1-6 while they're tossing you for spreading 1-12. I'll cut you in on the action ;).

Quote: Romes

But if you come to the WOV Meetup you can show us =P. I'll be the guy spreading 1-6 while they're tossing you for spreading 1-12. I'll cut you in on the action ;).

Like I said, I must've gotten lucky. Trust me, I was expecting it!

I also didn't go from a $25 to $50 or $75. I'd go to maybe $35 or $40 and increase slowly.

Quote: GreenChipBaron

Then your act is not good enough. I don't think I've ever had a pit boss pick up the phone and call anyone as a direct result of my play. This is in probably 80 hours of Vegas play, almost all of it at DD. I've had backoffs occur due to playing at one place for too long, but I can promise you that it had nothing to do with the pit personnel. It was simply security reviewing my play after some big wins.

Unless you have some very seasoned vet at your pit, the pit boss should never have any inkling of what you're doing. You should not be staring at the cards. You should not have any sort of serious expression on your face. You should not be mouthing numbers. Nothing about you should look any different from a regular gambler.

Invite the pit boss to watch. Engage in conversation. Explain just how bad your luck is. Predict how the dealer is going to beat you with the stiff hand he just revealed before he actually does. Let the boss know that you deserve that big win you just got. Play the part. If you're not fooling the pit personnel which are almost always clueless, then you're literally not going to fool anyone.

Ya, my problem is, if I'm sober, I don't really like engaging in conversation with people. I'd rather just sit down at the table do my counting, and cash out, once I'm done. The pit personal and ploppies definitely notice the emotionless personality. When I'm drinking however, I'm more talkative and I notice, I'm not getting sweated as much from the pits. I tend to blend in more with the average gambler.

Quote: Romes

Why on Earth you would think it a good idea to even PLAY at your "comp" property (sister or not) is beyond me. If I'm staying at Hotel X, and they're in the same property group as Y and Z, I won't even go count at Y or Z. There's literally TOO MANY places to hit in Vegas, why even gamble your hotel stay with these? I'm sorry if this is beating a dead horse, I just hope you learned and I hope others reading this will learn from your mistakes.

Lesson learned. I was trying to get to Diamond status so I can opt out of the resort fees. I guess it wasn't worth it.

Quote: Romes

Also, you play too long. You need to keep your sessions less than an hour. Again, there are literally TOO MANY places to play in Vegas! Who cares if you're down $100 here and you want to get back to even before moving on. Not every session can be a winning one. Play your hour (or possibly until you expose your max bet) then move on. Casino bosses won't think much of you because you're gone in the blink of an eye. They'll never be the wiser... and that's the plan.

Typically, on 6 deck and 8 deck shoes - I play until my max bets come out - I then finish the shoe, and collar up. This is great, when it happens in the first shoe, but it can take the 2nd, 3rd, or the more rare 4th shoe.

Double deck games, I may play another shoe, after my max bet has been exposed, usually if I was only able to get 1 or 2 max bets out and the pit didnt notice the max bets.

Quote: Romes

As you said it's quite situational and dependent on other variables, but with that verbiage warning out of the way, my answers:
a) 8-1 (if you're playing $50 min or $100 min then I'd even say 6-1).
b) 1-15. You're only going to get a big bet or two off before being tosses, so this requires short sessions (as all of the spreads do really). Also, I've played at places that sweated 1-10 6 deck NICKELS... and others that didn't even look at my 1-20 6 deck spread. You'll have to feel this out on your own.
c) same as b...

My typical spreads, are:
1-6 on double deck,
1-30 ($10 min) , 1-20 ($15 min), 1-12 ($25 min) on shoe games.

Quote: AxelWolf

That Will easily fit in your front pockets and wallet .
<snip>
Before you go through security quickly and inconspicuously put it in your carry on. After you get through security take it out of your carry on and put it back in your pockets. A mans hand can palm and hide most, if not all 5k stack. 1 quick smooth motion, no one will notice.

I would never put it in my carry on. At times, it's hard to keep an eye on it.

I keep the BR in my pockets. I signed up for TSA Precheck, so I go through the old-fashioned metal detector, rather than the body scanner, and no problem with the cash in pockets.

Ok, so not so great results after my week in Vegas.

-$1,799 on 15 hours of play. In addition, got 86'd from 1 property, and backed off in another.

Quote: stabworld

Ok, so not so great results after my week in Vegas.

-$1,799 on 15 hours of play. In addition, got 86'd from 1 property, and backed off in another.

Well, pooh. Sorry it was not a winning trip.

Quote: 21forme

I would never put it in my carry on. At times, it's hard to keep an eye on it.

I keep the BR in my pockets. I signed up for TSA Precheck, so I go through the old-fashioned metal detector, rather than the body scanner, and no problem with the cash in pockets.

I meant something you can keep with you small backpack or whatever. I don't store it. Also you put the money back in your pocket after it goes though the scanner anyways. I don't know what people are talking about holding money in their hand Going though security. They make me put Everything in the tub I cannot have anything in my hand.

Quote: AxelWolf

I meant something you can keep with you small backpack or whatever. I don't store it. Also you put the money back in your pocket after it goes though the scanner anyways. I don't know what people are talking about holding money in their hand Going though security. They make me put Everything in the tub I cannot have anything in my hand.

On my way back from Vegas, I had 1 stack of 5k, in my left hand, and 2 stacks of 5k and 7k in my right, going through the scanner. No issues.

Has anybody, ever gone back to a casino to play after being 86'd? Or is that pushing it?

If one was to do that, and was confronted by suits, then asked for id - couldn't you just deny producing id, and walk out - thereby not giving them the opportunity to confirm who you are - thereby not getting arrested for trespassing?

Or can they detain you, under suspicion that you were somebody that was 86'd in the past?

I have gone back to play in a particular casino after being flat-betted, and asked by a suit for id.

I said to him, what do you need my id for? He responded "we think you are somebody". I said, well I don't have any id. He said, then you can only bet the table minimum. When you come back with id, you will have no restrictions. I left the table, after the ordeal.

Not sure, what would happen in a casino after being 86'd, however.

Were you legitimately 86'd? Or did they just tell you to leave and not come back?

Did you sign anything? Get read the trespass act?

Quote: RS

Were you legitimately 86'd? Or did they just tell you to leave and not come back?

Did you sign anything? Get read the trespass act?

I was read the trepass act. Never signed anything. Escorted by security to the cage, to cash out my chips. Then escorted by security to the casino exit, making sure I left.

I wish I would have just, not gave any i.d., and never admitted to who they believed I was. The first thing he said when backing me off, was call me by my first name in question form, to see if I responded yes or no. I responded yes, as a natural response. As soon, as I did that, he signaled to eighter the camera or a suit down the hall, a thumbs up, like my identity was confirmed.

Why didn't you leave the building immediately? Why go along with security to the cage and whatnot?

In Josh Axelrad's "Repeat until rich" he says he has been 86'd, 172'd, and 258'd(86'd from same place 3 times.) For the most part, 86'ing is an empty threat but still not really worth it. It'd have to be something really good for me to go back where I've been 86'd, I wouldn't to count.

If I had 5 guesses where that happened on a first offense they'd all be Caesar's properties, with 10 guesses I'd add NYNY, Cosmo, Hard Rock along with 7 CZR properties.

Quote: RS

Why didn't you leave the building immediately? Why go along with security to the cage and whatnot?

The suit told me that he was going to 86 me, within the first 10 seconds of backing me off. It was going to happen anyway, unless I just grabbed my chips and bolted for the door. I'm not sure if they can detain me or not at that point, so I didn't attempt it, although it ran through my mind as an option.

I was already read the trepass act, before security escorted me to the cage to cash my chips.

Which is why you just grab your chips and leave. Don't bolt for the door or run. When approached, let them talk for a second or two. Ultimately, you want to get your stuff and leave. Don't have a conversation with them. If they say something say "OK" and leave (or say "I'm leaving right now" // "I was just about to leave").

Quote: RS

Which is why you just grab your chips and leave. Don't bolt for the door or run. When approached, let them talk for a second or two. Ultimately, you want to get your stuff and leave. Don't have a conversation with them. If they say something say "OK" and leave (or say "I'm leaving right now" // "I was just about to leave").

I know this now and for the future. I thought maybe it was going to be another flat-bet, or back- off, which I have gotten use to, as it happened a few times to me already. This was the first time, I experienced an 86. To be honest, I was a little nervous, when he said to me "we are going to have you 86'd." The thoughts of being arrested ran through my mind, but I remained positive with positive thoughts. Then when the security guy, started reading the trespass act, mentioning sentences like: "misdemeanor crime if found on one of our properties", started making me nervous - but, once I realized they were just going to escort me out the casino with no police, my mind was a little bit more at ease.

Quote: mcallister3200

In Josh Axelrad's "Repeat until rich" he says he has been 86'd, 172'd, and 258'd(86'd from same place 3 times.) For the most part, 86'ing is an empty threat but still not really worth it. It'd have to be something really good for me to go back where I've been 86'd, I wouldn't to count.

If I had 5 guesses where that happened on a first offense they'd all be Caesar's properties, with 10 guesses I'd add NYNY, Cosmo, Hard Rock along with 7 CZR properties.

Your guess/guesses are correct.

Quote: RS

Which is why you just grab your chips and leave. Don't bolt for the door or run. When approached, let them talk for a second or two. Ultimately, you want to get your stuff and leave. Don't have a conversation with them. If they say something say "OK" and leave (or say "I'm leaving right now" // "I was just about to leave").

My question is: can they prevent me from grabbing my chips from the table, under the pretense/suspicion that, I am somebody that was suspected of card counting, and previously warned not to play there? (Using, "the chips are casino property" card)

They can detain you if you've done something illegal or if they legitimately suspect you of cheating.

Card counting is not illegal nor cheating.
Being somebody who is not wanted or being somebody who is suspected of counting (or being a counter) are also not illegal nor cheating.



No, they cannot (legally) detain/restrict you from leaving [unless they legitimately suspect cheating or illegal activity (which you weren't doing)].

Quote: RS

They can detain you if you've done something illegal or if they legitimately suspect you of cheating.

Card counting is not illegal nor cheating.
Being somebody who is not wanted or being somebody who is suspected of counting (or being a counter) are also not illegal nor cheating.



No, they cannot (legally) detain/restrict you from leaving [unless they legitimately suspect cheating or illegal activity (which you weren't doing)].

They can, they have and they do.

But you may have the right to sue. Be prepared for a $2500 retainer fee, unless they do something really outrageous.

Also security guards often lie as a group.

Quote: AxelWolf

...Also security guards often lie as a group.

So do casinos as a whole. Just watch all the lies they spout in their tv ads.

Let him talk for a minute, say "Okay I was just heading out and I'd like to leave." In a non-threatening way simply pocket your chips and walk 'purposefully' towards the nearest exit. Do not run, jog, etc. Security are like dogs... If they see something run by they instinctively want to chase it.

You absolutely did NOT have to give your ID up, which it sounds like you did. So now you're burned at all of their properties. I hope there's a lesson learned as this has been posted and discussed MANY times before on what to do in a situation like this.

Quote: Romes

Let him talk for a minute, say "Okay I was just heading out and I'd like to leave." In a non-threatening way simply pocket your chips and walk 'purposefully' towards the nearest exit. Do not run, jog, etc. Security are like dogs... If they see something run by they instinctively want to chase it.

You absolutely did NOT have to give your ID up, which it sounds like you did. So now you're burned at all of their properties. I hope there's a lesson learned as this has been posted and discussed MANY times before on what to do in a situation like this.

Or you could just turn around and face the animals. Quietly ask "who's going first"?

Quote: Romes

Let him talk for a minute, say "Okay I was just heading out and I'd like to leave." In a non-threatening way simply pocket your chips and walk 'purposefully' towards the nearest exit. Do not run, jog, etc. Security are like dogs... If they see something run by they instinctively want to chase it.

You absolutely did NOT have to give your ID up, which it sounds like you did. So now you're burned at all of their properties. I hope there's a lesson learned as this has been posted and discussed MANY times before on what to do in a situation like this.

Ok, I did exactly that yesterday. I was followed by 2 suits after cashing out my chips at the cage. I was asked to give id, "I refused at this point". They called security, I again was asked to produce I.D., "I again refused". I told them, "I am on my way out the casino and have no desire to produce I.D." Then a 3rd suit, (I think he was the head of security) said, "we can do this the hard way or the easy way." Just give me your id. "I again refused". Security came, escorted me to the security area, then police came, and asked for my id. "I again refused" As soon as I refused, they forced my hands behind my back, put me in handcuffs, and searched my pockets against my consent. (I did not resist, and was compliant during the whole ordeal., the only thing I was non-compliant with, was refusing to give i.d.)

They had me detained for 30 minutes, going through my personal items in my pockets (one of them being my id. so they eventually were able to prove who they believed I was). During the scuffle, of forcing my hands behind my back and them aggressively digging though my pockets, they cut my right arm, which I just took pictures of. It's not a major cut, but it is a cut nevertheless. I also woke up, with my arms and wrists sore, from being in cuffs for over 20 minutes or so.

*side note,* I was flat-betted at this casino already, prior to this incident.

They took a picture of me (without my consent, while I was in cuffs against the wall they forced me to stand at). They evicted me from the property, and banned me from coming back. I did sign the paper acknowledging the ban (eviction). (not sure if I refused to sign, what they would have done, I just wanted to be out the situation already). I was told, I can call or write to get reinstated (which I have no desire to do).

************** Do I have a lawsuit here? ***************

(I would like to get some opinions here from people who went though this already, or have knowledge on the subject - to see if it is worth pursuing)

(my thoughts are, I was under no suspicion of a crime, therefore, I do not have to produce i.d.. I was under suspicion of breaking the casino rules of betting over the limits they had in place for me at a blackjack table. I do not believe this warrants or gives them a right to force-ably, handcuff me, search my pockets, go though my personal items, and detain me for refusing to give my i.d.)

This was an embarrassing and degrading situation to have to go though, as it was done very close to the gaming floor, with onlookers watching. All because, I am playing a game offered by the casino. playing it in a way they don't like. I was treated like a criminal for "playing a game strategically", and refusing to give i.d. when asked, when I am under no legal obligation to do so.

Quote: stabworld

Ok, I did exactly that yesterday. I was followed by 2 suits after cashing out my chips at the cage. I was asked to give id, "I refused at this point". They called security, I again was asked to produce I.D., "I again refused". I told them, "I am on my way out the casino and have no desire to produce I.D." Then a 3rd suit, (I think he was the head of security) said, "we can do this the hard way or the easy way." Just give me your id. "I again refused". Security came, escorted me to the security area, then police came, and asked for my id. "I again refused" As soon as I refused, they forced my hands behind my back, put me in handcuffs, and searched my pockets against my consent. (I did not resist, and was compliant during the whole ordeal., the only thing I was non-compliant with, was refusing to give i.d.)

They had me detained for 30 minutes, going through my personal items in my pockets (one of them being my id. so they eventually were able to prove who they believed I was). During the scuffle, of forcing my hands behind my back and them aggressively digging though my pockets, they cut my right arm, which I just took pictures of. It's not a major cut, but it is a cut nevertheless. I also woke up, with my arms and wrists sore, from being in cuffs for over 20 minutes or so.

*side note,* I was flat-betted at this casino already, prior to this incident.

They took a picture of me (without my consent, while I was in cuffs against the wall they forced me to stand at). They evicted me from the property, and banned me from coming back. I did sign the paper acknowledging the ban (eviction). (not sure if I refused to sign, what they would have done, I just wanted to be out the situation already). I was told, I can call or write to get reinstated (which I have no desire to do).

************** Do I have a lawsuit here? ***************

(I would like to get some opinions here from people who went though this already, or have knowledge on the subject - to see if it is worth pursuing)

(my thoughts are, I was under no suspicion of a crime, therefore, I do not have to produce i.d.. I was under suspicion of breaking the casino rules of betting over the limits they had in place for me at a blackjack table. I do not believe this warrants or gives them a right to force-ably, handcuff me, search my pockets, go though my personal items, and detain me for refusing to give my i.d.)

This was an embarrassing and degrading situation to have to go though, as it was done very close to the gaming floor, with onlookers watching. All because, I am playing a game offered by the casino. playing it in a way they don't like. I was treated like a criminal for "playing a game strategically", and refusing to give i.d. when asked, when I am under no legal obligation to do so.

Wow, quite the story... I hope you're okay!

So they didn't approach you at all while you were playing? They waited until after you cashed out and then stopped you randomly on the casino floor asking for ID? You are absolutely within your rights to refuse giving your ID to them at this point. They can ask, but they can not require, stop, or detain you. Of course all of this depends on your actual story and what you were doing, I'm just going off of what you wrote.

The only problem I see is you not giving your ID to the police officers. Unfortunately if the police are called they have the right to ID people with probable cause. They were brought to the casino for an incident (doesn't matter what it was) and as most cops do, they'll instantly just start ID'ing people to check if anyone has anything they can arrest them for. Here I would have given my ID to the actual police officers (never a casino employee) and told them "I'm showing you my ID for the purposes of identifying myself to a police officer. This information is not for you to disseminate to the casino, whom have no right to my information. I was doing absolutely nothing illegal and will sue to protect my information from wrongly being distributed."

When you refuse to give ID to an actual police officer they're legally allowed to arrest/detain you until they can figure out who you are, because they need to be able to check for warrants, etc. If you didn't have ANY ID on you they would have taken you to the station and finger printed you / held you until some form of identification could be provided for you.

When you're in a casino, you're out in the open for them to take your picture. Think about it. You're on camera from the moment you walk in. They are within their rights to stop the video and take a still frame as a picture. This is why many casinos have 'choke points' set up where everyone has to go through some open, narrow hallway where they can get a good shot of everyone's face. Now if they took you to a backroom and asked you to smile, you by no means have to look directly at the camera/etc. At this point after the police showed up though, you were in a tough spot. Your best course of action would have been to cooperate with the actual police. Prior to the actual police showing up you should have pulled your phone out and video recorded you saying "I wish to leave this establishment. You have no right to detain me and I wish to leave. Please let me leave." Saying this over and over would show they're detaining you against your will (i.e. kidnapping).

What you signed was you being trespassed from their property (properties?). You're now hard barred there and could face troubles if you go back to their property (properties)? This is why casinos want your ID so bad. They can't 'technically' bar someone if they don't know who they are. They can say "never come back" but it means nothing unless they have your ID to fill out the trespass paperwork.

Do you have a lawsuit?
First, I'll say CONSULT A LAWYER. While a lot of people on here are familiar with the do's and don'ts, your individual state/etc could have some minor different laws. Also, I hope you weren't playing on at an indian casino, because 99/100 times that just means tough luck for you as they have their own courts and can do pretty much whatever they want.

Now that the disclaimer is out of the way, I'll give my opinion... You quite possibly do. I need to hear more of your story on how/when they stopped you. There was obviously a point in which security would not let you leave before the police were called. How did this situation come about? You said it was after you cashed your chips. Did anyone talk to you before that? Did they stop you at the door and refuse to let you leave? Did you state numerous times you wanted to leave? Would it be obvious on video that you were trying to leave and they wouldn't let you? Did they give you any reasons as to why you weren't allowed to leave? Please give a very detailed breakdown of your story prior to the police showing up.

I'm sorry you had to deal with this situation, it unfortunately still happens with uneducated casinos. For now if I was you I would NOT list the casino here, but you can say whether or not it was a tribal/indian casino or not.

EDIT - You should probably also copy your previous post and make this it's own thread. It will get a lot more traffic/responses to potentially help you.

Quote: Romes

Wow, quite the story... I hope you're okay!

So they didn't approach you at all while you were playing?

No

Quote: Romes

They waited until after you cashed out and then stopped you randomly on the casino floor asking for ID?

Yes. But obviously it wasn't random, they followed me and knew who I was.

Quote: Romes

What you signed was you being trespassed from their property (properties?). You're now hard barred there and could face troubles if you go back to their property (properties)?

Yes.

Quote: Romes

I need to hear more of your story on how/when they stopped you. There was obviously a point in which security would not let you leave before the police were called. How did this situation come about? You said it was after you cashed your chips. Did anyone talk to you before that? Did they stop you at the door and refuse to let you leave? Did you state numerous times you wanted to leave? Would it be obvious on video that you were trying to leave and they wouldn't let you? Did they give you any reasons as to why you weren't allowed to leave? Please give a very detailed breakdown of your story prior to the police showing up.

I was not approached at the table. After I got up from the table, I proceeded to the cage to cash my chips. About 15 seconds later, as I am on my way out the casino, somebody from behind me, is calling out my first name (a suit). I know what it's about, however, I ignore them, like I don't hear the person. Another 30 seconds later, I hear from behind me, now 2 suits, yell out 'Sir", 'Sir", it was so loud, it was almost impossible to ignore. So I turn around, and they approach me. They say "are you (my first name)?" I respond, "no". They ask me again the same question, I again say no. Then they ask, "do you have i.d. on you.". I say "no". I said "what is this about?" They say "we have identified you as an advantage player who was told before to only bet the table minimum and you were just playing above those limits." I said, "I don't know who (my first name), but that's not me, and I have no i.d. I am on my way out the casino. " They continued to ask for i.d. A 3rd suit comes on the scene. By the way this is in a main hallway of the casino with a lot of foot traffic. They probably asked for i.d. at least 7 to 8 times. I did state to them, that I wanted to leave, and had to go numerous times. The 3rd suit radio's into security to come and says on the radio "he is refusing to give i.d.". Security comes, and hovers around me in a way where I can't walk away from there. They say come with me. I asked "where am I going"? They respond "to the security area". I go with them. That's when police arrive.

Quote: Romes

I'm sorry you had to deal with this situation, it unfortunately still happens with uneducated casinos. For now if I was you I would NOT list the casino here, but you can say whether or not it was a tribal/indian casino or not.

It was an indian casino, and the police were not local police, but tribal police.

I have moved this conversation into a new thread. (please post there)

--------------> https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/22296-do-i-have-a-lawsuit-illegally-detained-and-handcuffed/#post462973