The BIG deal made around splitting 10's.

I always split 10's against a dealers face card of a 5. I do this even if a strategy chart would discourage it. The only thing I dislike about splitting 10's is that the dealer will then bellow out loudly that someone is splitting 10's. As if to notify the pit boss that the person splitting 10's should be on their radar.
I am not a card counter, because I don't frequent the casinos with the mind set that my goal should be to always beat the house. Sometimes I just want to play for recreation and not count cards. So personally I think that if more people would split 10's, then this would help take away from the Casinos "Radar" edge of yelling "Splitting 10s".
However then again, I am a small time recreational better, of 5 to 25 per hand. If I were playing a $100 hand, or $1000 hand, then I would definitely not be splitting 10's.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Thanks for all of the Black Jack players who have helped me on this forum.

Quote: SnapBack

I always split 10's against a dealers face card of a 5. I do this even if a strategy chart would discourage it. The only thing I dislike about splitting 10's is that the dealer will then bellow out loudly that someone is splitting 10's. As if to notify the pit boss that the person splitting 10's should be on their radar.
I am not a card counter, because I don't frequent the casinos with the mind set that my goal should be to always beat the house. Sometimes I just want to play for recreation and not count cards. So personally I think that if more people would split 10's, then this would help take away from the Casinos "Radar" edge of yelling "Splitting 10s".
However then again, I am a small time recreational better, of 5 to 25 per hand. If I were playing a $100 hand, or $1000 hand, then I would definitely not be splitting 10's.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Thanks for all of the Black Jack players who have helped me on this forum.

SnapBack,

Don't make a hair-brained play like this. What's the matter with you? Never split 10s. It's a big -EV move. If you can't help yourself from doing it quit playing blackjack and just mail the casino a check. Don't make me hurt you!

Quote: SnapBack

I always split 10's against a dealers face card of a 5. I do this even if a strategy chart would discourage it. The only thing I dislike about splitting 10's is that the dealer will then bellow out loudly that someone is splitting 10's. As if to notify the pit boss that the person splitting 10's should be on their radar.
I am not a card counter, because I don't frequent the casinos with the mind set that my goal should be to always beat the house. Sometimes I just want to play for recreation and not count cards. So personally I think that if more people would split 10's, then this would help take away from the Casinos "Radar" edge of yelling "Splitting 10s".
However then again, I am a small time recreational better, of 5 to 25 per hand. If I were playing a $100 hand, or $1000 hand, then I would definitely not be splitting 10's.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Thanks for all of the Black Jack players who have helped me on this forum.

You're fine. I'm not going to knock you for trying to add some excitement by splitting 10s in what can be a tedious and boring game.

As a counter I will split 10s whenever the count calls for it after evaluating for any heat. Here's a little trick that some counters use. Split 10s during a neutral count when you have your minimum bet out. It won't cost a lot and the idea is to get the pit used to the fact that you're an idiot. I can't say that it will always work and you must leave after showing your max bet whether you've made any index plays or not.

Quote: Greasyjohn

SnapBack,

Don't make a hair-brained play like this. What's the matter with you? Never split 10s. It's a big -EV move. If you can't help yourself from doing it quit playing blackjack and just mail the casino a check. Don't make me hurt you!

That's ridiculous. If he enjoys splitting 10's against a 5 (or 6) more power to him. Not everyone thinks they are going to bankrupt a casino by being the worlds best advantage player. He's playing for fun.

When I play, I play for fun as well. I know every house advantage percentage, every "sucker" bet and every play people that take this too seriously cry about. And despite all of that, I've split 10's, doubled on Blackjack, played a Pai Gow hand differently than optimal, let my bets ride on a hunch in Let it Ride, etc, etc, etc.

Why can't people just play like they want to and have fun without being asked what's the matter with them or being slapped with it being an -EV move? Tipping 25% instead of 15% or 20% on a restaurant bill probably costs more than splitting 10's but you don't see people telling others that's -EV.


ZCore13

Quote: Greasyjohn

SnapBack,

Don't make a hair-brained play like this. What's the matter with you? Never split 10s. It's a big -EV move. If you can't help yourself from doing it quit playing blackjack and just mail the casino a check. Don't make me hurt you!

Wait a minute now, GJ. I assume this statement is meant for this particular non-counter poster. For a card counter, splitting tens is +EV. Pretty big +EV, when done correctly. It is one of the top strategy change plays behind taking insurance at the proper index. Problem is as 1BB alluded too, it draws big attention. And if it doesn't draw initial attention, it might draw what I call secondary attention from the other players at the table making comments and/or a fuss.

There is a common comeback on several BJ sites of "there are other players at the table?", meaning you should ignore other players and their comments and play should not influence anything you do. BUT, when their comments lead to extra attention in the form of a pit critter walking over to see what is going on, then yes there are definitely other players at the table and their actions/comments can be negative consequence in the form of additional attention.

Splitting 10's is one of a handful of plays that casinos use to identify counters. Just like taking insurance and even hitting 16 vs 10, it is the fact that these plays are made sometimes and not at others that are the big 'tells'.

For a player such as myself, who's whole game is about drawing minimal attention and flying under the radar as much as possible, I have all but given up the +EV play of splitting 10's. It just isn't +EV when weighted against ALL the consequences (extra attention). I say "all but given up" because like most things in life, there are exceptions. I will still do so, if I think I can get away with it, while drawing minimal attention if the count is real high. I mean significantly above the proper index. Even above the risk-adverse index. Of course, I will exit at the shuffle after such a move, which I would be doing anyway after showing my max bet. I am also a little more 'willing' to do so, when I am out of town, away from my regular rotation of stores.

Can somebody provide some insight as to WHY split tens are always announced by the dealer? It is hardly a good way to identify counters, I would assume that most of the split tens on any given day in a casino come from recreational players. If they wanted to identify counters, they should rather announce things like "5-fold bet increase"...

Quote: Canyonero

Can somebody provide some insight as to WHY split tens are always announced by the dealer? It is hardly a good way to identify counters, I would assume that most of the split tens on any given day in a casino come from recreational players. If they wanted to identify counters, they should rather announce things like "5-fold bet increase"...

It isn't that splitting 10's alone identifies card counters. You probably have heard the saying that only idiots and card counters split 10's. So what it does is draw attention. And once someone, pit or surveillance begins to take a look at your play, it usually isn't hard for them to distinguish if you are an idiot or a card counter.

That is basically the situation with all these 'tells' that are used to identify counters. The' tell' itself doesn't prove anything, but it may cause someone to take a closer look and upon further examination........

Quote: Canyonero

Can somebody provide some insight as to WHY split tens are always announced by the dealer? It is hardly a good way to identify counters, I would assume that most of the split tens on any given day in a casino come from recreational players. If they wanted to identify counters, they should rather announce things like "5-fold bet increase"...

Pretty sure it's so there's evidence when the play fails and the player tries to claim it isn't what they wanted. Same reason they call out for doubling a hard 12, etc.

And they do also call out for large bets in most shops, especially when it's a break from a player's past betting values. "black/purple/yellow action" "Checks play", etc.

Quote: kewlj

Wait a minute now, GJ. I assume this statement is meant for this particular non-counter poster. For a card counter, splitting tens is +EV. Pretty big +EV, when done correctly. It is one of the top strategy change plays behind taking insurance at the proper index. Problem is as 1BB alluded too, it draws big attention. And if it doesn't draw initial attention, it might draw what I call secondary attention from the other players at the table making comments and/or a fuss.

There is a common comeback on several BJ sites of "there are other players at the table?", meaning you should ignore other players and their comments and play should not influence anything you do. BUT, when their comments lead to extra attention in the form of a pit critter walking over to see what is going on, then yes there are definitely other players at the table and their actions/comments can be negative consequence in the form of additional attention.

Splitting 10's is one of a handful of plays that casinos use to identify counters. Just like taking insurance and even hitting 16 vs 10, it is the fact that these plays are made sometimes and not at others that are the big 'tells'.

For a player such as myself, who's whole game is about drawing minimal attention and flying under the radar as much as possible, I have all but given up the +EV play of splitting 10's. It just isn't +EV when weighted against ALL the consequences (extra attention). I say "all but given up" because like most things in life, there are exceptions. I will still do so, if I think I can get away with it, while drawing minimal attention if the count is real high. I mean significantly above the proper index. Even above the risk-adverse index. Of course, I will exit at the shuffle after such a move, which I would be doing anyway after showing my max bet. I am also a little more 'willing' to do so, when I am out of town, away from my regular rotation of stores.

I know all about what you're saying. You're entire post that has relevance to what I responded to was your first line, "Wait a minute now, GJ. I assume this statement is meant for this particular non-counter poster."

This guy is a beginner. And I'm not trying to encourage him not have fun. But mathematically, for him, it is a crazy-bad play.

Don't get me wrong about the rest of our post. You have, as usual, some great observations.

Thinking about it without the math, or in other words: trying to explain the math...

You have a situation where, if you stand, it is highly likely that you both keep your initial bet, and also win the bet.

If you split, you are doubling your potential loss, while possibly weakening both hands. A dealer 5 or 6 is not only good because the dealer is more likely to bust, he is less likely to get 20's as well. So you really do give up a lot with the 20, and if you end up with 2 18's, even then you have a good chance of losing.

Quote: Canyonero

Can somebody provide some insight as to WHY split tens are always announced by the dealer? It is hardly a good way to identify counters, I would assume that most of the split tens on any given day in a casino come from recreational players. If they wanted to identify counters, they should rather announce things like "5-fold bet increase"...

There's a second reason dealers call out unorthodox plays like "Splitting face cards," "Splitting fives," and "Double hard thirteen". Not only can it be a sign that a player is counting cards, it could also be a sign that a recreational player is intoxicated.

In at least some jurisdictions, if not most, casinos are obligated by law to prevent patrons who are TOO intoxicated from gambling. One of the things the pit will look at when deciding a player's capacity is if they're making erratic plays like these.

Quote: Deucekies

There's a second reason dealers call out unorthodox plays like "Splitting face cards," "Splitting fives," and "Double hard thirteen". Not only can it be a sign that a player is counting cards, it could also be a sign that a recreational player is intoxicated.

In at least some jurisdictions, if not most, casinos are obligated by law to prevent patrons who are TOO intoxicated from gambling. One of the things the pit will look at when deciding a player's capacity is if they're making erratic plays like these.

I don't think that's case...I was always under the impression that the casino would let you keep playing as long as you're not belligerent. I have never seen people who were drunk and on tilt ever stopped from pulling more money from their wallet. You only get stopped if you are spilling drinks, stumbling, etc.

Quote: Avincow

I have never seen people who were drunk and on tilt ever stopped from pulling more money from their wallet. You only get stopped if you are spilling drinks, stumbling, etc.

Exactly. You can split 10's and lose all day long; they only worry when you split 10's and win consistently.

Quote: Avincow

I don't think that's case...I was always under the impression that the casino would let you keep playing as long as you're not belligerent. I have never seen people who were drunk and on tilt ever stopped from pulling more money from their wallet. You only get stopped if you are spilling drinks, stumbling, etc.

At my casino we have very strict alcohol/intoxication rules. If someone shows "obvious signs of intoxication" they are no longer even allowed in the casino. In table games we specifically look for the inability to stack chips, slowing the game down, not being able to follow basic dealer instruction or game rules, being much louder than upon arrival and other signs. Doesn't matter if they are winning or losing or if they just bought in for $1,000.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

At my casino we have very strict alcohol/intoxication rules. If someone shows "obvious signs of intoxication" they are no longer even allowed in the casino. In table games we specifically look for the inability to stack chips, slowing the game down, not being able to follow basic dealer instruction or game rules, being much louder than upon arrival and other signs. Doesn't matter if they are winning or losing or if they just bought in for $1,000.

ZCore13

Kudos to "your" casino, Zcore. That is the way it should be, but is not what I have witnessed at most places that I play. I have seen people so drunk they fall over and are still allowed to play. I've seen players fall asleep at the table and still continue to play. Spill drinks...obviously many, many times. And not only continue to play, but continue to get more drinks. It' usually when they are broke that they are declared too drunk and must leave.

I don't track my play by time, but I would estimate better than 13,000 hours of actual table time and far more time than that in casinos, in my 13+ years of playing for a living and can count on one hand the times I saw someone not allowed to play who still had money. These type of predatory practices are common in the casino industry and one of the things I dislike about this industry so much, so again, Kudo's to your casino and or jurisdiction, if it is a jurisdictional policy.

I've had dealers call out "doubling soft 19" against a 6......When a basic strategy play is considered bizarre, something's not right, either with the establishment, the typical player in that establishment, or both.

I think a reason the dealer will announce seldom seen plays is to give the player a chance to change his mind. In other words, it is a warning. I don't dispute that part of it may be to alert the floor that the player may be intoxicated or an advantage player.

My advice, embarrassment or not, is to quit splitting tens. It is a bad play.

Quote: Canyonero

Can somebody provide some insight as to WHY split tens are always announced by the dealer? It is hardly a good way to identify counters, I would assume that most of the split tens on any given day in a casino come from recreational players. If they wanted to identify counters, they should rather announce things like "5-fold bet increase"...

I've worked at two different casinos and we never had to announce split tens. Out of an 8 hour shift of blackjack, tens will be split maybe 3 or 4 times, and that's it. It's usually by the same players who will split identical ranks, but won't do it for different ranks (QQ vs. KQ).

For the original poster, go ahead and do it if you want. The rest of the table is not in control of your actions. A quote I often give to players that are complaining about other players' legitimate actions is "1/3 of the time what they do hurts you, another 1/3 it helps you, and the other 1/3 it doesn't matter".

Like has been said, the way to announce a 5-fold bet increase is just to call out "Cheques play" and then keep on going, no approval needed.

Quote: 1BB

As a counter I will split 10s whenever the count calls for it after evaluating for any heat. Here's a little trick that some counters use. Split 10s during a neutral count when you have your minimum bet out. It won't cost a lot and the idea is to get the pit used to the fact that you're an idiot. I can't say that it will always work and you must leave after showing your max bet whether you've made any index plays or not.

Do you always leave after you have shown your max bet? Or you leave once you have split tens with that high bet out since I assume that your betting ramp is high when index calls for that play?

Quote: gav

Do you always leave after you have shown your max bet? Or you leave once you have split tens with that high bet out since I assume that your betting ramp is high when index calls for that play?

Hi, gav. In shoe games it's one in the same for me because I play slightly more aggressively by getting my max bet out at +4. The index for 10,10 vs 5 is +5 and vs 6 it is +4. I'll finish the shoe and leave.

The merits of splitting tens are debatable. Yes, if you are counting at a high index number you should split them. But to me it's just not worth it. As someone else said; it screams either COUNTER...or IDIOT. Keeping a low profile at the BJ table is in my mind important for avoiding heat. Splitting 10's (regardless of the merits of the move) just brings to much attention. Not worth it.

You get 2/3 of the gain of splitting 10's if you only split them at +6 or higher. I don't always split tens, but when I do it's a monster count. You can also use the same +6 index for 4-6.

Quote: vendman1

The merits of splitting tens are debatable. Yes, if you are counting at a high index number you should split them. But to me it's just not worth it. As someone else said; it screams either COUNTER...or IDIOT. Keeping a low profile at the BJ table is in my mind important for avoiding heat. Splitting 10's (regardless of the merits of the move) just brings to much attention. Not worth it.

Short sessions for me.

For me, it depends upon whether I have a small wager on the table or a big wager. If I'm playing low stakes, minimum bets, sometimes I'll screw around and do fun (stupid) plays that are mathematically unsound. But if I have a big wager on the table, I'll quit the joking and play serious basic strategy. For me, it hurts less to lose a big bet if I know I did everything by the book.

It's mathematically unsound to drink alcohol at the table and I do that, too.

Quote: 1bb

Hi, gav. In shoe games it's one in the same for me because I play slightly more aggressively by getting my max bet out at +4. The index for 10,10 vs 5 is +5 and vs 6 it is +4. I'll finish the shoe and leave.

Its a little off topic but kinda what kewlj said: do you always leave after showing max bet? Or is that your playing strategy using short sessions. Splitting tens or not. Like if i was planning to play for a while should I continue playing after showing max bet?

Quote: gav

Its a little off topic but kinda what kewlj said: do you always leave after showing max bet? Or is that your playing strategy using short sessions. Splitting tens or not. Like if i was planning to play for a while should I continue playing after showing max bet?

That depends on a lot of things. You havr guys that play hard until they are backed off, and that's how they operate, and you have guys who have a small spread and play for hours at the same place. There's no real answer to this other than: it's up to you.

My Dad, who plays "not quite" BS, split 10's once to make an obnoxious ploppy leave the table. Loud, grumpy guy buys in at his table, and says, "I had to leave that other table. Some moron was splitting his 10's." So, my Dad split his next 20. Guy left. Definitely +EV (assuming the ploppy isn't waiting for him in the parking lot!)

As Wiz and Duecekies said, I think dealers announce "bad" plays both to alert the player that he is making a questionable decision, and allow him no wiggle room after play is completed. E.g, you can't come back and say, "I never wanted to split my 10's" after the dealer announced your intentions to the entire casino.

I say go ahead and play how you want. It's usually not a mathematically sound move, but if you enjoy it, go for it. I recall some years ago when I was playing with some friends at a casino in Biloxi. We were doubling hard 12's at a $5 table, and having a blast. Having the dealer shout it out each time was part of the fun. Alcohol may have been involved.

Quote: gav

Its a little off topic but kinda what kewlj said: do you always leave after showing max bet? Or is that your playing strategy using short sessions. Splitting tens or not. Like if i was planning to play for a while should I continue playing after showing max bet?

Both. They need an hour, maybe 45 minutes, to look at you before initiating a skills check or whatever else they may do. You want to be gone before then. I spread 1-16 or more in shoe games if I can get away with it. You'd be surprised.

Quote: 1BB

Both. They need an hour, maybe 45 minutes, to look at you before initiating a skills check or whatever else they may do. You want to be gone before then. I spread 1-16 or more in shoe games if I can get away with it. You'd be surprised.

Really...an hour for a skills check? Hmmmm. I guess I give them too much credit. I figured they just rewound the tape or whatever back to the beginning of a shoe and counted from there, and compared the count to your bet size. Should only take 10 min or so I would think. Either way I like your moxie. I get nervous spreading more than 1-8. But that's more my chickenshit nature, than anything else. :)

Quote: Joeman

My Dad, who plays "not quite" BS, split 10's once to make an obnoxious ploppy leave the table.

Unfortunately, 70% of the time when I split tens, I'm trying to figure out if the obnoxious newcomer is a civilian or pro. Usually a pro, and it usually doesn't scare them off.


And no, I don't leave immediately after, no matter the bet size. Any place I'm splitting tens, there's no heat.

Quote: vendman1

Really...an hour for a skills check? Hmmmm. I guess I give them too much credit. I figured they just rewound the tape or whatever back to the beginning of a shoe and counted from there, and compared the count to your bet size. Should only take 10 min or so I would think. Either way I like your moxie. I get nervous spreading more than 1-8. But that's more my chickenshit nature, than anything else. :)

You have to remember that in a shoe game, the count doesn't go positive enough for max bet very often. It is not unusual for the count to hover around zero, -1, +1 (true counts) for several shoes in a row. And with each shoe taking 15 minutes or so at crowded and semi-crowded tables, your not really providing much info.

Then when the count does go positive enough for max bet or even significant bet, and you increase, it usually stays there for at least a little while. This provides some info, but a decent casino isn't going to make that judgment based on one cycle. They don't want to chase away a good customer. They want to be sure you are moving money with the count rather than just happened to parlay up or chase losses at that particular time.

It should take a minimum of two bet cycles for a definitive assessment. This is also why exiting after showing your bet cycle or bet spread, really limits them. It's that retreat back to the small wager that is the really big 'tell' and you have eliminated that. But your sweatier places, the El Cortez's and South Points ect, jump the gun and back people off that are no more counting than doing hand stands.

Now, single/double deck games are a different monster. The count is very fluid and it really only takes a short time for anyone to definitively see any patterns.

Really funny that I was reading this thread yesterday... Enjoyed a sporting event near a local shop and stopped in for a few shoes. Last shoe, near the end, RC +11 about 2 decks left (TC = +5.5)... Dealt 10-10 to dealer 5. Two people in front of me were to act but the dealer went straight to 3rd base (the only person who really had a 'decision' since everyone else had like 19-18-etc to dealer 5). I probably could have stopped the game to come back to me (middle position) to split, but I decided not to make a fuss since not only was this my local shop I frequent for perks, but also I felt that the table would make a massive stink enough to warrant a lot of unwanted attention from the pit. I just thought of this thread as soon as that happened, smiled, then collected my win when the dealer showed 15 and pulled a miracle 4 for 19 =).