Playing at Mlife properties after a backoff

I've made two trips to Vegas after putting in the work to learn how to count. Halfway through the first trip, I discovered DD, and the huge bump in EV was too tempting to avoid. I'm a green chip player, playing a 1-10 spread (25-250 or two hands of 175).

I probably put in around 20 hours of DD between several casinos on the strip, some of them Mlife. No issues. On the second trip, I probably had another 15-20 hours of play before an Mlife property, one that's known for being fairly sweaty, finally caught on. I got the tap by the casino manager, and was told I could no longer play Blackjack on their property. This was while playing rated, so I'm sure the incident was recorded on my card.

A few hours later, I tried to play unrated at another Mlife property on the other side of the strip. The phone rang within 3 seconds of me sitting down. The pit boss asked for my ID again. I played the DD shoe varying from 1 to 2 units and then quickly got up and left. The shift manager was there when I turned around from the cashier cage, and informed me that I was flat bet on that property. They had chased me down as I was leaving.

So, the first backoff seemed to be bad enough that they sent out a flyer about me to other properties. Even unrated, they knew it was me. With all that said, what should I expect when I go back to Vegas in a few months? I assume the flyer will go away and I'll likely be fine to play unrated. Can I ever played rated again?

(And yes, I understand playing DD is basically jumping into a honeypot. But wow, those games are so good.)

Vegas double deck is notoriously sweaty, and at certain properties are there as "counter traps". Here are a few things you should have done differently:

1. Your spread was too big. Keep it to 1-8 at MOST, and come off the top with two or even three units.

2. You put in way too much time. Play the shoes as well to mix things up. You gave them too much information by camping out.

3. Playing double deck rated. You knew to play unrated after the backoff, but they use players cards at DD to flyer you if you were flagged as skilled.

4. Going to a sister property only a few hours later. Give it a day or two.

5. Going to the cage. You should have made a brisk walk towards the exit. You can always come back later to get your money.

Yes, the games are good, but you should focus on the shoes since they don't watch them as closely.

So is it safe to play shoes rated in Vegas?

Quote: Avincow

So is it safe to play shoes rated in Vegas?

I'd say play unrated at stores at which you want to win money, and play rated at stores to which you want to be comped. Don't play a strong count game at the places you want to be comped. Play break-even at those places at most.

Quote: hitthat16

Vegas double deck is notoriously sweaty, and at certain properties are there as "counter traps". Here are a few things you should have done differently:

1. Your spread was too big. Keep it to 1-8 at MOST, and come off the top with two or even three units.

2. You put in way too much time. Play the shoes as well to mix things up. You gave them too much information by camping out.

3. Playing double deck rated. You knew to play unrated after the backoff, but they use players cards at DD to flyer you if you were flagged as skilled.

4. Going to a sister property only a few hours later. Give it a day or two.

5. Going to the cage. You should have made a brisk walk towards the exit. You can always come back later to get your money.

Yes, the games are good, but you should focus on the shoes since they don't watch them as closely.

Fair enough. I was shocked (still am) that I able to get away with it for as long as I did. I'll certainly tone down the DD and focus on shoes from now, as there are still plenty of very good shoe games in Vegas.

That said, will it ever be "safe" to use my card again at an mlife property? I guess I'm just curious if I can squeeze any more comps out of them before having to play unrated.

I don't think you should ever really have a safety zone counting cards. It's just very easy to detect by someone who knows what they're looking for if you're playing a strong, aggressive game. I would only play rated at independent properties, and really would get your comps from nominal machine play, but it's a judgment call.

Quote: GreenChipBaron

That said, will it ever be "safe" to use my card again at an mlife property? I guess I'm just curious if I can squeeze any more comps out of them before having to play unrated.

I doubt you'll be able to play rated blackjack. Any other game, but your card has been marked and I'm sure you'd be instantly bounced from a blackjack table. I'd imagine they take the motto "Once a counter, always a counter" =p.

p.s. There are PLENTY of other games to play, off the strip. You should expand your horizons =)

Quote: GreenChipBaron

I've made two trips to Vegas after putting in the work to learn how to count. Halfway through the first trip, I discovered DD, and the huge bump in EV was too tempting to avoid. I'm a green chip player, playing a 1-10 spread (25-250 or two hands of 175).

I probably put in around 20 hours of DD between several casinos on the strip, some of them Mlife. No issues. On the second trip, I probably had another 15-20 hours of play before an Mlife property, one that's known for being fairly sweaty, finally caught on. I got the tap by the casino manager, and was told I could no longer play Blackjack on their property. This was while playing rated, so I'm sure the incident was recorded on my card.

A few hours later, I tried to play unrated at another Mlife property on the other side of the strip. The phone rang within 3 seconds of me sitting down. The pit boss asked for my ID again. I played the DD shoe varying from 1 to 2 units and then quickly got up and left. The shift manager was there when I turned around from the cashier cage, and informed me that I was flat bet on that property. They had chased me down as I was leaving.

So, the first backoff seemed to be bad enough that they sent out a flyer about me to other properties. Even unrated, they knew it was me. With all that said, what should I expect when I go back to Vegas in a few months? I assume the flyer will go away and I'll likely be fine to play unrated. Can I ever played rated again?

(And yes, I understand playing DD is basically jumping into a honeypot. But wow, those games are so good.)

I got backed off BJ at an Mlife. Didn't play there for a few months. Went to a different Mlife, and played rated. They took my info and wrote it down. I don't know if their computers were down, or if that's how they do it or what. No backoff. Went there again a few days later. Same pen/paper deal, no backoff. Went back to the original property that backed me off. I was backed off on sight. i"ve been asking basically the same question from experienced Mlife players...did i just get lucky or am I safe at other properties? I dont know, but I can just tell you my experience.

Quote: Sonuvabish

I got backed off BJ at an Mlife. Didn't play there for a few months. Went to a different Mlife, and played rated. They took my info and wrote it down. I don't know if their computers were down, or if that's how they do it or what. No backoff. Went there again a few days later. Same pen/paper deal, no backoff. Went back to the original property that backed me off. I was backed off on sight. i"ve been asking basically the same question from experienced Mlife players...did i just get lucky or am I safe at other properties? I don't know, but I can just tell you my experience.

While you/we might not know for sure... The logistics of the situation tend to point in a specific direction. I would weight the probability that you got lucky (that their computers were down) quite high. MLife properties have integrated tracking/statistic systems... They don't use old fashioned paper/pen. Thus, it should be fairly safe to say that since they didn't have their computers, they couldn't see your big red flag, and as such you were allowed to play.

The ONLY way you could ever play rated at a property you were backed off while playing rated before (meaning they have your information) would be if you somehow found out if their cards "expire" and drop you from their databases after X years... Which in working with software/database information I can tell you that is also far fetched to happen. Or if you use another name/alias/id to get a completely separate players card.

Quote:

Or if you use another name/alias/id to get a completely separate players card.

At one point, at one property, I had THREE different cards with the same name and birth date. They each had a different address. Granted, I wasn't able to take advantage of the situation, since my previous IDs were expired and thrown out.

Quote: Romes

While you/we might not know for sure... The logistics of the situation tend to point in a specific direction. I would weight the probability that you got lucky (that their computers were down) quite high. MLife properties have integrated tracking/statistic systems... They don't use old fashioned paper/pen. Thus, it should be fairly safe to say that since they didn't have their computers, they couldn't see your big red flag, and as such you were allowed to play.

The ONLY way you could ever play rated at a property you were backed off while playing rated before (meaning they have your information) would be if you somehow found out if their cards "expire" and drop you from their databases after X years... Which in working with software/database information I can tell you that is also far fetched to happen. Or if you use another name/alias/id to get a completely separate players card.

I'm not so sure about that. First, I've never heard of a casino having it's computers down for DAYS. It's usually fixed in one shift. Also, their computers were fine everywhere else in the building. I also didn't notice anywhere to swipe my card, so I'm not convinced pen/paper wasn't their routine.

I wasn't at the same property when I escaped a back-off. I was at a different Mlife property, one that had never backed me off.

Quote: RS

At one point, at one property, I had THREE different cards with the same name and birth date. They each had a different address. Granted, I wasn't able to take advantage of the situation, since my previous IDs were expired and thrown out.

Query -- say you move and get a new driver's license (all legit, same name but different address and different state), and went to an MLife property and told them you didn't have an account with them. You ask the pit to make one for you using the new DL. Would they see the old account you have with them?

Quote: arcticfun

Query -- say you move and get a new driver's license (all legit, same name but different address and different state), and went to an MLife property and told them you didn't have an account with them. You ask the pit to make one for you using the new DL. Would they see the old account you have with them?

I think they would, because they check your birthdate and it's in the computer. If they get a hit with same first/middle/last/birthdate, I bet they would assume it's you.

This is very interesting. I was flat bet (playing rated) at the Mirage around 2007. I was playing primarliy a DD pitch game and making many of the same mistakes the OP did, played too long, spread too much, etc. I still occasionally play other MLife properties unrated and haven't had any problems. I generally don't play BJ at the Mirage any longer because I often stay there.

A couple years ago I had my players cards, ID, credit cards, most everything, stolen on a trip. So, when I went to get a new MLife card, I asked that they open a new account and transfer my points over and they did so willingly. I wonder if I played tried playing BJ rated, if I'd be flagged since it's a new account number?

On the other hand, it's not much of a hassle for me to just play unrated, it just looks a little weird when buying if for $500-$1K and you don't want to be rated, but I keep my sessions short.

[Edit] - $500-$1K doesn't really move the needle at the Vegas MLife properties, I was thinking more of the local shops where I play unrated.

I'd like to say that I haven't played DD at MLife properties in about 5 years--for all the reasons brought up in this thread. Espically, I would steer clear of the S17, DD games. I'm already banned at all Station properties.

But for me, I'm unwilling to play 6 or 8 decks. I do if I happen to be in a casino in a remote area and that's all they offer. Hi-Opt 1 with an ace side count isn't the best count for shoes anyway. And DD is just more exciting!

Frankly, I don't know why shoes don't get more heat than they do. A guy using a spread of 1-12 or 1-15 would be easy to spot. Wonging would be easy to spot. All the surrender 6 & 8 deck games with S17, I would think, would get more heat than they do.