If you were in charge...
1. What would be your lowest table minimum?
2. Would you have any tables paying 6/5?
3. Any CSM's?
4. What would you do differently with 2D compared to 6-8D games?
5. What would your policy be as far as catering to extreme high rollers? Let's say Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were to come in wanting to play 500K a hand. Would you let them?
6. How would you deal with card counters?
Quote: Wanderer5. What would your policy be as far as catering to extreme high rollers? Let's say Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were to come in wanting to play 500K a hand. Would you let them?
Rumor is Bill Gates is a low roller.
Quote: mipletRumor is Bill Gates is a low roller.
well he didnt become rich by being dumb.
Quote: strictlyAP2-1 on all blackjacks only at 500 minimum tables
Lolwut
What other rules would be on that table? Wouldn't 2:1 blackjacks put the HE and darn close to zero?
Quote: WandererIf you were in charge of Blackjack operations at one of the high-end Vegas resorts (Bellagio, Caesars, Wynn, etc.) how would design the layout, rules, etc. to maximize profits and customer satisifaction? Some specific questions:
1. What would be your lowest table minimum?
2. Would you have any tables paying 6/5?
3. Any CSM's?
4. What would you do differently with 2D compared to 6-8D games?
5. What would your policy be as far as catering to extreme high rollers? Let's say Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were to come in wanting to play 500K a hand. Would you let them?
6. How would you deal with card counters?
1. I would have at least one $5 minimum table that would never increase. Seven spots, eight decks, H17, no surrender, dealt from ASM.
2. No.
3. No.
4. High minimums.
5. No. (Google Kerry Packer.)
6. Let them continue to lose.
Quote: Wanderer6. How would you deal with card counters?
This is kind of interesting, because there might be other ways to get more potential counters off their game without actually looking like you're ruining the game.
You have six senses to work with to assault with distractions. You have a world of documented psychological effects, which you might be able to use to target natural human weaknesses of perception, or memory.
The trick is to not appear to be doing anything too overt.
That's because you want to keep an appearance of running a beatable game while doing the opposite as much as possible.
I have no suggestions though.
Quote: WandererIf you were in charge of Blackjack operations at one of the high-end Vegas resorts (Bellagio, Caesars, Wynn, etc.) how would design the layout, rules, etc. to maximize profits and customer satisifaction? Some specific questions:
1. What would be your lowest table minimum?
2. Would you have any tables paying 6/5?
3. Any CSM's?
4. What would you do differently with 2D compared to 6-8D games?
5. What would your policy be as far as catering to extreme high rollers? Let's say Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were to come in wanting to play 500K a hand. Would you let them?
6. How would you deal with card counters?
1. $5 or $10 (depending on time of day)
2. I would have all tables be 6/5 and work with surrounding casinos to make this the new norm.
3. Ideally all CSM. For non CSM, 8 deck games with no more than 60% Pen.
4. No 2d games.
5. Of course, under the established rules.
6. Would not be an issue with above policy. For anyone who finds a way to get an unfair edge would be aggressively banned and when appropriate, charged. Players have the best experience when all are playing fairly.
2. Yes, but only single-deck.
3. Yes, with 6 or more decks.
4. I wouldn't have them - just 6/5 single deck to bring in the rubes who think they can count good enough to beat it, and CSM with 6-8 decks.
5. That depends on how much cash the casino has on hand.
6. Between the 6/5 and CSMs, haven't I already "dealt with" them?
One other thing I would do: S17 at all tables. In fact, I live about a mile away from a freeway that has a fairly permanent billboard that says, "We Stand on Soft 17". (It is for Cache Creek Casino, which advertises not only this, but 3-2, on its TV commercials.)
The worst rules I could legally get a way with because people will play. I wouldn't want savvy player's anyways.
Why not let the billionaires go 500k a hand? The odds are on your side, and you have deep pockets. Macau casinos deal with that weight regularly, and they are not hurting at all...
Quote: AyecarumbaWhy not let the billionaires go 500k a hand? The odds are on your side, and you have deep pockets. Macau casinos deal with that weight regularly, and they are not hurting at all...
Well, I imagine every casino has its limits. It may be a lot more than 500K at the big-time casinos. I really don't know. And I have no idea what their earnings are from Blackjack. But if someone were to come in betting 500K a hand (or money that's a lot higher than the casino regularly sees, whatever that may be) and has a good night, that could put a big dent in their profits. We all know anything can happen in one short-term session. Now if they were seeing 500K bets every night and had enough time to work past some possible short-term luck by the player(s) and let the edge take over eventually, that would be different. But if some eccentric billionaire (l looked up Kerry Packer, as someone suggested, and he seems to be exactly what I'm talking about) came in for one night with luck on his side and kicked your ass, you might feel that one for a while. Might be more of a risk than the casino is willing to take.
My guess would be around 12-15 Billion. While a whale hitting you for 25 million would mean a thin Christmas bonus, it is not the end of the world. I would let the whole world know we took the hit and welcome everyone to try their luck. Great PR opportunity.Quote: WandererWell, I imagine every casino has its limits. It may be a lot more than 500K at the big-time casinos. I really don't know. And I have no idea what their earnings are from Blackjack. But if someone were to come in betting 500K a hand (or money that's a lot higher than the casino regularly sees, whatever that may be) and has a good night, that could put a big dent in their profits. We all know anything can happen in one short-term session. Now if they were seeing 500K bets every night and had enough time to work past some possible short-term luck by the player(s) and let the edge take over eventually, that would be different. But if some eccentric billionaire (l looked up Kerry Packer, as someone suggested, and he seems to be exactly what I'm talking about) came in for one night with luck on his side and kicked your ass, you might feel that one for a while. Might be more of a risk than the casino is willing to take.
Quote: AyecarumbaMy guess would be around 12-15 Billion. While a whale hitting you for 25 million would mean a thin Christmas bonus, it is not the end of the world. I would let the whole world know we took the hit and welcome everyone to try their luck. Great PR opportunity.
Good point about the PR opportunity.
Quote: AxelWolf
The worst rules I could legally get a way with because people will play. I wouldn't want savvy player's anyways.
Ding Ding Ding!!! We have a winner.
Quote: WandererIf you were in charge of Blackjack operations at one of the high-end Vegas resorts (Bellagio, Caesars, Wynn, etc.) how would design the layout, rules, etc. to maximize profits and customer satisifaction? Some specific questions:
1. What would be your lowest table minimum?
2. Would you have any tables paying 6/5?
3. Any CSM's?
4. What would you do differently with 2D compared to 6-8D games?
5. What would your policy be as far as catering to extreme high rollers? Let's say Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were to come in wanting to play 500K a hand. Would you let them?
6. How would you deal with card counters?
1. It really depends on the foot traffic. $5 during the day, $15-$25 at night/ on the weekend
2. No that is not blackjack
3. No I think it is an insult to the player
4. $25 min during the day, $100 at night/ on the weekend S17, RSA, DAS, Late Surrender
5. Yes. That's at least $45,000 per hour with perfect basic strategy
6. Card counters are not as big of a threat as people think. If there is someone winning at a table (from card counting) there are 6 other people that want to be a winner too! "look that guy is a winner, why can't I be?". It is actually good for the casino to allow them to play. There are a handful of counters that casinos should be reluctant to let play and they are the counters who could win $500,000+ in one session. Unfortunately for the casinos, they bend over backwards for these players and offer them $20,000 in promo chips, free presidential suites, etc. But it is the novice card counter that gets threatened with being arrested if he returns!
A card counter betting $10-$100 in your average blackjack game will only win $14 per hour at 100 hands per hour. The casinos make that much money in less than a second. Card counters are just scape goats and overbearing pit bosses scare away potential money because they're sweating an 80 year old woman betting $25-$100 at the double deck. GIVE ME A BREAK!
I don't see casinos going bankrupt anytime soon due to card counters.
2. No 6/5.
3. No CSMs.
4. No DAS. Probably no MSE, pushing players to play all. Lower spread limit.
5. Patrons wishing to play over $25k/hand should inquire about a private game.
6. Not going to worry about less than $250/hand. If a skills check shows that they've got a negative ADT, their table play doesn't accrue comps. If their play is over our pain threshold, we'll need to discontinue their play (although, I'd want to do it gently). For the most part, the table max should limit our exposure - spreading $0-$20000 just won't be possible. Teams should not expect us to be hospitable.
I generally expect that table max will be 150x minimum, or less ($10-$1500). 75x on 2d.
I think most of the Big chains should take such bets, the variance should be within their limits to tolerate at a Group level.
If you look at the big picture MGM has a market Cap of $10 billion. Stock prices routinely go up or down by 1% just randomly during a day, that's $100 million.
$0,5 million bet means a session of say within +-$20 million (and more likely +-$10 million).
Of course before they accept such betting limit they need to vet the player to make sure he is not an AP.
And put very good security measures that no cheating is involved.
And of course such an authorisation would come all the way from top management.
And as others say, you can get free good publicity out of such event.
BUT most probably no big chain casino would do it.
Look at that guy who several years ago as a lark organized a two-limousine outing to a Red Chip Casino. All the men were to be in tuxedos and the women were to be in Evening Gowns and dripping jewelry. They were all playing with stacks and stacks of black and orange chips against dealers who had never before seen even one black chip in his entire life. The Pit Boss was surprised by it all and took it in good stride, even telling the organizer: "Give us a little notice next time and we will arrange something special for you".
Quote:Of course before they accept such betting limit they need to vet the player to make sure he is not an AP.
To what extent would you let the high roller dictate the rules of the game?
Although it would require you to step over over 9000 children to get to the table.....
Another fun feature is longhorn/bighorns double on any 3 cards.
As far as bj tables I would set, probably all the great rules (s17, das, double any 2, split 4 hands, surrender) great pen, with 22 push or dealer wins all ties. Make the game as close to "true" blackjack as much as possible.
Maybe a "lose only half your bet" lammers you can earn every time a dealer gets a blackjack.
Quote: aceofspadesI would announce that card counters are welcome, no backoffs. But, no mid-shoe entry.
Any penalty for leaving mid-shoe? (Particularly on private, high-limit tables)
Like... you're welcome to take a break, and we'll shuffle up for you, but we won't start dealing for you again for at least an hour?
Quote: DieterAny penalty for leaving mid-shoe? (Particularly on private, high-limit tables)
Like... you're welcome to take a break, and we'll shuffle up for you, but we won't start dealing for you again for at least an hour?
No penalty - I think the amount of "counters" who think they can count would keep the casino very happy. (and yes, I realize I am not a counter)
$25-500 Pit: 3/2 4D S17 D9-11 DAS RS4 RSA LS
$100-$2000 area: 3/2 2D S17 D9-11 DAS RS3 RSA LS
$500-10G's: 1D 3/2 H17 DA2 DAS Availible through Concierge and Hosting
2. I would advertise that we only deal blackjack. 6/5 is not blackjack.
3. Simple, fast hand shuffle only. Machines introduce suspicion.
4. Pitch - single deck H17, double deck add ds. 6 deck add surrender. High limit add s17.
5. Take any bet just like Benny Binion.
6. Card counters ignored unless winning large amounts or they get obnoxious about it. No bullshit "you are too good for us". Be direct. Walk up and ask them "What is the count?" Recommend strategy deviations. If a counter is respectful, not greedy, tips, is nice to other players and crew, and especially if he/she is drinking and having a good time they get a pass. Their comps would be meager but I would buy them lunch if I asked them to stop playing. Counters and non-counters alike, players prefer a fun, sweat free casino.
Quote: AbeFrohman1. Minimums 10, 15, 25 on floor and 50, 100 high limit
2. I would advertise that we only deal blackjack. 6/5 is not blackjack.
3. Simple, fast hand shuffle only. Machines introduce suspicion.
4. Pitch - single deck H17, double deck add ds. 6 deck add surrender. High limit add s17.
5. Take any bet just like Benny Binion.
6. Card counters ignored unless winning large amounts or they get obnoxious about it. No bullshit "you are too good for us". Be direct. Walk up and ask them "What is the count?" Recommend strategy deviations. If a counter is respectful, not greedy, tips, is nice to other players and crew, and especially if he/she is drinking and having a good time they get a pass. Their comps would be meager but I would buy them lunch if I asked them to stop playing. Counters and non-counters alike, players prefer a fun, sweat free casino.
Would comped sausages be delivered to the players at the table?
Quote: aceofspadesWould comped sausages be delivered to the players at the table?
I did not become Sausage King by giving away the meat.
Quote: WandererIf you were in charge of Blackjack operations at one of the high-end Vegas resorts (Bellagio, Caesars, Wynn, etc.) how would design the layout, rules, etc. to maximize profits and customer satisifaction? Some specific questions:
1. What would be your lowest table minimum?
2. Would you have any tables paying 6/5?
3. Any CSM's?
4. What would you do differently with 2D compared to 6-8D games?
5. What would your policy be as far as catering to extreme high rollers? Let's say Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were to come in wanting to play 500K a hand. Would you let them?
6. How would you deal with card counters?
1. Depends on time of day. 7 AM on Tuesday? Maybe a $5 table or two. Far from the others. Keep the fleas concentrated. Then raise it to $10 for day shift.
2. Hell no. I would make other rules unfavorable but no 6/5. That's BS.
3. Never. I would instead have shuffle machines - and never, EVER show the burn card.
4. Probably either higher minimums or limit splits/doubles.
5. I may allow, with special permission, people to place a single even-money bet above the house maximum (i.e. someone wants to bet their entire 401K on red or black, a single BJ hand, pass/don't pass, player/banker, etc.) but only allow it up to, say, $1M.
6. Small-time card counters? Let them play. Organized rings of card counters like the MIT team? Pull them aside, politely tell them I know what they're doing, and tell them they can't play blackjack at my casino anymore. Really good individual counters? Hire them.
Quote: hwccdealer
3. Never. I would instead have shuffle machines - and never, EVER show the burn card.
Are there seriously casinos that do this? What is the point of burning a card at all if you're going to show it to people?
Quote: DeucekiesWhat is the point of burning a card at all if you're going to show it to people?
The top card can be exposed during the deck handling.
The point of burning the card is so that first dealt card has a lesser chance of being known in advance.
Quote: DeucekiesAre there seriously casinos that do this? What is the point of burning a card at all if you're going to show it to people?
My home casinos show the burn card every time but we have shoes only. It's just one of either 312 or 416 cards, two if the relief dealer taps in. If the dealer forgets to show it , it's just an unseen card. I would never ask to see it.
There are arguments when the dealers forget to burn a card. The scenario is always the same. The dealer forgets, the player plays out the hand, loses and calls the floor to complain. These are the very same people who complain that the shoe is ruined when the dealer burns a card. The floor or pit boss will often acquiesce and cancel the hand but not before reminding everyone that burning a card is a courtesy and is not mandatory. Idon't know why they say that. A courtesy to whom?
It's pretty funny except that it slows down the game and brings attention to the table.
In a shoe, you don't really have to worry about the first card being exposed during the betting, and if you are, you should be burning a card every hand.
Quote: 1BBThere are arguments when the dealers forget to burn a card. The scenario is always the same. The dealer forgets, the player plays out the hand, loses and calls the floor to complain. These are the very same people who complain that the shoe is ruined when the dealer burns a card.
Typical angle-shooting. Too bad the floors give in to that.
Quote: DeucekiesSeems to me like if you're going to show the burn card anyway, then you might as well not burn it.
The point is that the second card from the top is harder to accidentally expose, so the player getting the first card won't have any foreknowledge (like "I know I'm getting an ace, which gives me a better than usual chance of blackjack, so bet big").
It's not an anti-counting thing, it's a general game security thing.
Quote: DieterThe point is that the second card from the top is harder to accidentally expose, so the player getting the first card won't have any foreknowledge (like "I know I'm getting an ace, which gives me a better than usual chance of blackjack, so bet big").
It's not an anti-counting thing, it's a general game security thing.
Longhorn burns the first 10 cards or so off the top of a shoe game, but instead of just pulling a few off the top of the shoe and tossing it into the discard, they were removed one at a time, organized neatly in a grid-like fashion on the table until the appropriate number was reached, and then collected and tossed in the discard.
Quote: VenthusLonghorn burns the first 10 cards or so off the top of a shoe game, but instead of just pulling a few off the top of the shoe and tossing it into the discard, they were removed one at a time, organized neatly in a grid-like fashion on the table until the appropriate number was reached, and then collected and tossed in the discard.
10... or so? I've seen this type of burn in baccarat, where they'll pull one, face it up, and then burn enough cards to make up the face value of the card.
Is it always 10? Do they change how many they draw off?
The point of this one would seem to be to negate (or at least complicate) any "skilled cutting".
Quote: DieterThe point is that the second card from the top is harder to accidentally expose, so the player getting the first card won't have any foreknowledge (like "I know I'm getting an ace, which gives me a better than usual chance of blackjack, so bet big").
It's not an anti-counting thing, it's a general game security thing.
That's my point. In a shoe game, you don't have to worry about the top card being exposed. And if you do, this situation could come up at the beginning of any hand in the shoe, not just the first one. You don't burn a card before every hand, so what makes the first hand so susceptible?
Quote: Dieter10... or so? I've seen this type of burn in baccarat, where they'll pull one, face it up, and then burn enough cards to make up the face value of the card.
Is it always 10? Do they change how many they draw off?
The point of this one would seem to be to negate (or at least complicate) any "skilled cutting".
I was in for less than one shoe... which is how long it took them to knock me down 20 units, flat betting. They didn't flip the first card, and it was an odd number; may have been 7/9 (It was set out in a grid of 2xY, with the first card off to the side.). The dealer seemed mildly perturbed that I commented that the style of burn was something I hadn't seen before. It was a newly opened table, if that made a difference.
Longhorn is kind of a dive; it has a decent cheap restaurant though, called the Chuck Wagon. 10$ steak and lobster, and the lobster was way better than the early dinner special at the Friday's in Sam's Town.
Quote: DeucekiesYou don't burn a card before every hand, so what makes the first hand so susceptible?
Immediately before the first hand, the cards are shuffled, cut, and loaded into the shoe.
During that handling procedure, it's possible that the top card might get exposed.
The deck is not taken out of the shoe immediately before other hands, so the risk of exposing the top card isn't there.
The burn at dealer changes is for a different reason; not entirely sure on that one. (I believe it's an anti-collusion practice, possibly to fight icebergs.)
Quote: VenthusLonghorn is kind of a dive
Lots of interesting stuff in your story. Thanks much.
(Trying hard not to "Cool story, bro"... since this really does have some interesting... stuff.)
Quote: DieterLots of interesting stuff in your story. Thanks much.
(Trying hard not to "Cool story, bro"... since this really does have some interesting... stuff.)
Well, if you're really interested, here's their site. (I had to go to the third page of Google to find their official page...) Most of their food specials aren't listed online though: http://longhorncasinolv.com/ Also, their club signup bonus is a pack of cookies.
They also have some interesting rules, in addition to that weird burn:
Double on three cards.
Unlimited splits (RSA to 3 hands), DAS.
Extra 5$ for suited diamond BJ when betting 5$ or more.
They've only got 3 tables (4?), and only one was open when I had lunch. By the time I finished, a tournament was finishing up and they opened the adjacent table right after. Shoe games with 2$ minimums. Between the lousy penetration, size of the place, bet sizes and unusual rules, I'd guess that it'd be sweatier than a sauna.
Quote: VenthusWell, if you're really interested, here's their site. (I had to go to the third page of Google to find their official page...)
Yelp reviews are priceless
