Using Something Other Than Hi Lo Count as Cover
Is it useful to be using a different count other than hi-lo for the sole reason to avoid detection? I know that large betting spreads are the main tells for pegging counters, but surely using a less mainstream count should buy a little bit of extra playing time, right?
I'm curious as to how betting/playing patterns correlate between a hi-lo counter and a counter using Hi-Opt II count with a side count of aces. How often will both players be placing their max bets, taking insurance, etc. at the same time?
Instead, work on your sort play game and count the "sorts". Sort play by categorizing the cards into groups, such as: symmetrical, asymmetrical, and unknown. Next, count how rich each grouping is. As the cards are dealt, your edge counting the sorts will be much higher, and you won't look like most counters.
It helps if you have a partner. However, if you don't, then you can focus on just one sort category.
Good Luck.
-Keyser
Quote: KeyserDon't waste your time only counting cards. You'll stand out like a sore thumb, just like every other card counter does.
Instead, work on your sort play game and count the "sorts". Sort play by categorizing the cards into groups, such as: symmetrical, asymmetrical, and unknown. Next, count how rich each grouping is. As the cards are dealt, your edge counting the sorts will be much higher, and you won't look like most counters.
It helps if you have a partner. However, if you don't, then you can focus on just one sort category.
Good Luck.
-Keyser
Thank you for taking the time to write advice, but I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Are you suggesting I edge sort? However, it sounds like you are referring to something else...
By the way, you don't need to touch or turn the cards to do it.
Quote: Avincow
Is it useful to be using a different count other than hi-lo for the sole reason to avoid detection?
Absolutely not. For this to work, they'd have to only watch you once. And that one time they check would have to be that rare shoe where your 'other' count does not correlate well to hi-lo. So sole reason? Absolutely, positively...NO. Should you factor avoiding detection into the equation of changing counts? Sure, if it's just a talking point and you put insignificant weight on it. You use a different count for more power.
A countable side-bet may use a significantly different count that does not strongly correlate to hi-lo. Switching to that to avoid detection may be worth discussion.
Quote: KeyserYes, edge sort.
By the way, you don't need to touch or turn the cards to do it.
you wanna elaborate on this strategy? I've never heard of counting sorts.
Quote: 1BBThere's a reason why the dealer turns half the decks prior to shuffling.
So? If you half turn a penny, do you still know it's a penny?
My point is, with practice it doesn't matter if the card is turned or not.
By the way, you can't identify every card, only some. And some is often more than enough.
Quote: SonuvabishAbsolutely not. For this to work, they'd have to only watch you once. And that one time they check would have to be that rare shoe where your 'other' count does not correlate well to hi-lo. So sole reason? Absolutely, positively...NO. Should you factor avoiding detection into the equation of changing counts? Sure, if it's just a talking point and you put insignificant weight on it. You use a different count for more power.
No, you won't look like an ordinary goofy counter. Having the ability to look over at the shoe, and possibly determine that the next card out is more likely to bust the dealer, or that it's more likely to complete your hand, when the normal hi-lo count differs, is big. In some cases, after you've sorted all of the decks, you may find that you have the edge on the very first hand, simply because of the cards that make up a particular sort category. A regular Hi Lo counter looks different.
Dr. Elliot Jacobson has all kinds of information on sort play.
By the way, depending on the casino, some people may have absolutely no idea as to how this could be possible, since the back of the cards are covered. (Especially in AC) However, in many casinos, you can see enough of the card.
Keyser
Quote: AvincowIs it useful to be using a different count other than hi-lo for the sole reason to avoid detection?
If your counting method is effective, it will identify moments of player advantage, and you'll increase your bets at about that time.
Hi-Lo will likely identify similar moments of player advantage. If they're counting down with Hi-Lo, and notice that your bets are bigger when the count is favorable vs when the count is less favorable, they've got you. If they're counting down with K-O or REKO, they'll still identify the moments of advantage, and still notice the correlation. If they're counting down with any other count, they'll still identify the same moments of advantage, and still notice the correlation of your bet size.
Or, play with a smaller spread (that they don't care about), or play somewhere that doesn't have heat, or do something else* to identify moments of your advantage to put the money on the felt.
*Effective psychic premonition about the next 6 cards and the dealer's hole card is ideal. Unfortunately, the last time I was playing with a professional psychic, she wasn't doing any better than anyone else.
Quote: KeyserSo? If you half turn a penny, do you still know it's a penny?
My point is, with practice it doesn't matter if the card is turned or not.
By the way, you can't identify every card, only some. And some is often more than enough.
No, you won't look like an ordinary goofy counter. Having the ability to look over at the shoe, and possibly determine that the next card out is more likely to bust the dealer, or that it's more likely to complete your hand, when the normal hi-lo count differs, is big. In some cases, after you've sorted all of the decks, you may find that you have the edge on the very first hand, simply because of the cards that make up a particular sort category. A regular Hi Lo counter looks different.
Dr. Elliot Jacobson has all kinds of information on sort play.
By the way, depending on the casino, some people may have absolutely no idea as to how this could be possible, since the back of the cards are covered. (Especially in AC) However, in many casinos, you can see enough of the card.
Keyser
I know WHAT edge sorting is. What i dont know is WHAT you're talking about. You said you don't have to touch the cards and you can count the sorts. Then you linked to a man's site who is single-handedly destroying AP opportunities everywhere, who talks about Ivey. Ivey tricked the dealer into turning the cards, which was ruled illegal under civil law in England. So although that technically doesn't apply in the US, that is exactly what the casino would argue after they withheld my winnings...not that it happen because they aren't going to let me alter their procedure in the first place. So, tricking the dealer is out.
But you also seem to be saying it doesn't matter if the dealer turns the cards or not. But I really don't get this at all, because sorting the cards depends on them being...well, sorted. And in a hand-dealt game, cards are constantly spun. In a 3CP for example, the dealer will flip player and dealer cards different ways, which is why the only way to do it is with a team. But you're talking about counting sorts. Never heard of it. You haven't really elaborated. If this strategy exists, I'd appreciate a brief tutorial.
Quote: 1BBMaybe it has something to do with the design on the backs rather than, or in addition to, uneven edges. I've never seen it either. There's a reason why the dealer turns half the decks prior to shuffling. Ask them why the next time you play. I'll bet they won't know but that won't stop them from making something up. Me? I believe everything the nice dealer tells me. :-)
I hate idiot dealers who know-it-all, much like i hate ploppies. This one I remember, let's call him Jeff (cuz that's his name), was telling players that you're supposed to split 8's against a 10 and then he went into some mumbo-jumbo about how he has looked at graphs that say it's the correct move. Who else would look at graphs besides an expert? Then I surrender a 16 v. 10. "That ruins the cards for everyone". I wanted him to watch me murder his family.
One time a dealer explained to a ploppy that doubling a 9 v. 10 is worse than splitting 10s against a 6. My jaw dropped in disbelief, and I involuntarily gasped "that's correct". I am not exaggerating...I was shocked a dealer said something halfway intelligent pertaining to his job.
Quote: SonuvabishBut you also seem to be saying it doesn't matter if the dealer turns the cards or not. But I really don't get this at all, because sorting the cards depends on them being...well, sorted. And in a hand-dealt game, cards are constantly spun. In a 3CP for example, the dealer will flip player and dealer cards different ways, which is why the only way to do it is with a team. But you're talking about counting sorts. Never heard of it. You haven't really elaborated. If this strategy exists, I'd appreciate a brief tutorial.
No, sorting doesn't depend on the dealer doing ANYTHING to the cards. The dealer doesn't "sort" the cards. You do, visually. It has to do with tracking the asymmetrical cards in relation to the symmetrical. When a card has a printed pattern that is asymmetrical, it doesn't matter which direction the card is turned. Understand? With practice, you'll know it's asymmetrical, regardless of the direction.
The reason I pointed you to Dr. Elliot Jacobson's site is so that you can see asymmetrical cards, not so that you could learn the "turn". It would be very very unlikely to find "turn" opportunities.
Quote: KeyserNo, sorting doesn't depend on the dealer doing ANYTHING to the cards. The dealer doesn't "sort" the cards. You do, visually. It has to do with tracking the asymmetrical cards in relation to the symmetrical. When a card has a printed pattern that is asymmetrical, it doesn't matter which direction the card is turned. Understand? With practice, you'll know it's asymmetrical, regardless of the direction.
The reason I pointed you to Dr. Elliot Jacobson's site is so that you can see asymmetrical cards, not so that you could learn the "turn". It would be very very unlikely to find "turn" opportunities.
So you are basically saying some cards in the game have uneven borders and others do not? I cannot imagine this would be very useful. If you have a team, you can turn anywhere they have shoddy cards.
Why do you keep calling him Dr? He's a scourge. He gets well-deserved hate mail. He publishes nothing I don't already know unless I didn't want to know it. Except one incomplete thing I did notice first on his site, but I needed more info than he provided before I put money on it. Overall, he's more harm than good.
Quote: SonuvabishSo you are basically saying some cards in the game have uneven borders and others do not? I cannot imagine this would be very useful.
I suppose the problem is that you can't "imagine this". Research the cards more.
Quote: SonuvabishWhy do you keep calling him Dr? He's a scourge. He gets well-deserved hate mail. He publishes nothing I don't already know unless I didn't want to know it. Except one incomplete thing I did notice first on his site, but I needed more info than he provided before I put money on it. Overall, he's more harm than good.
Ph.D =Doctorate. "Eliot Jacobson received his Ph.D. in Mathematics from the University of Arizona in 1983. Eliot was Professor of Mathematics at Ohio University from 1983 to 1998, where he was undergraduate chair from 1990 to 1994. He was Visiting Associate Professor and Lecturer in the Department of Computer Science at the University of California, Santa Barbara from 1998 to 2009. Eliot has over twenty research publications in mathematics appearing in major international journals. In 2009, Eliot retired from academia."
Not really true.
Quote: KeyserI suppose the problem is that you can't "imagine this". Research the cards more.
Um, research the cards? I already know what edge sorting is. After repeatedly asking the same thing, I am getting the strong impression you are unable to explain, perform, or replicate your earlier supposition. Advising the OP, who does not appear to be an expert card counter, to do something like this is poor advice. I was new once...and posts like yours are highly confusing, aggravating, ant totally inapplicable even if you do actually know a workable method.
Quote: Keyser
Ph.D =Doctorate. "Eliot Jacobson received his Ph.D. in Mathematics from the University of Arizona in 1983. Eliot was Professor of Mathematics at Ohio University from 1983 to 1998, where he was undergraduate chair from 1990 to 1994. He was Visiting Associate Professor and Lecturer in the Department of Computer Science at the University of California, Santa Barbara from 1998 to 2009. Eliot has over twenty research publications in mathematics appearing in major international journals. In 2009, Eliot retired from academia."
I'm not asking what a PhD is; it's hard to imagine someone could be that dense, but I suppose it's possible. I am asking why u keep showing him an odd level of respect. If you are simply calling him Dr. because he has a doctorate level degree, why aren't you calling me Dr. Sonuvabish? Or at least Mr. Sonuvabish?
Quote: HunterhillIf you have a team, you can turn anywhere they have shoddy cards.
Not really true.
Unless their procedure is involved, I don't see why not.
Quote: SonuvabishUm, research the cards? I already know what edge sorting is. After repeatedly asking the same thing, I am getting the strong impression you are unable to explain, perform, or replicate your earlier supposition. Advising the OP, who does not appear to be an expert card counter, to do something like this is poor advice. I was new once...and posts like yours are highly confusing, aggravating, ant totally inapplicable even if you do actually know a workable method.
Sorry Sonuvabish,
I'm not going to go into any further detail. You should just stick to counting.
Quote: KeyserSorry Sonuvabish,
I'm not going to go into any further detail. You should just stick to counting.
Your method doesn't exist, Keyser.
In some ways, the new white "brushed" edges are easier. Because it's easier to see "too much white" or "too little white" on the printed side card edge.
Quote: RSIf Keyser is talking about what I think he's talking about.....that's a damn hard method to pull off. Assigning a count to the big/little diamonds edge, then in subsequent shoes counting each edge and how many of which edge were played. Not to mention, you'd have to see the card coming out of the shoe "this is a little diamond card" (when you see the back), dealer flips it over to show its value, then changing the count for that edge....meanwhile dealer already pulling out 2 more cards from the shoe.
This is what I thought he meant, and was rebuffed as being 'unable to imagine' it. Reminds me of the bac thread. I dont see how this would, typically, give you an edge. The distribution of hi/lo cards is going to be roughly proportional between the different sorts. Who cares if there are lots of big diamonds left? You have no idea what their composition is. Not to mention the egregious error rate that creeps in. Overall, straight counting is going to be more effective. Yes, I'll concede you can('t) spend 1 million years looking for the perfect game and eventually find one that lasts two hours until they change cards because nothing is impossible. Pretty sure, essentially, this method is nonexistent, and that Keyser is not successfully employing it.
Sometimes, there may only be only one or two cards, per deck that you can quickly spot. Sometimes, there are several. When you reduce the number of cards, via the sort, the added bonus can be tremendous. It largely depends on the decks being used, the casino, and how much of the card is visible in the shoe.
Sonuvabish,
I thought you were possibly an experienced counter. If you can't grasp how it helps, then I really don't know what to tell you. I will just say that you can get one hell of an extra edge via sorting. In some ways it's like hole carding. Sometimes, you will definitely know the next card in the shoe. Most of the time, you will simply know the probability of the next card being a specific card. It's not easy, but it can turn BJ, bac., back into an AP game, rather than a minimum wage job or foolish venture.
-Keyser
Quote: KeyserYou'll have to do you're own research and sorting.
Sometimes, there may only be only one or two cards, per deck that you can quickly spot. Sometimes, there are several. When you reduce the number of cards, via the sort, the added bonus can be tremendous. It largely depends on the decks being used, the casino, and how much of the card is visible in the shoe.
Sonuvabish,
I thought you were possibly an experienced counter. If you can't grasp how it helps, then I really don't know what to tell you. I will just say that you can get one hell of an extra edge via sorting. In some ways it's like hole carding. Sometimes, you will definitely know the next card in the shoe. Most of the time, you will simply know the probability of the next card being a specific card. It's not easy, but it can turn BJ, bac., back into an AP game, rather than a minimum wage job or foolish venture.
-Keyser
If you are saying there is only one anomalous card in the game, or three, or a very small number, then I'd agree, this information can be used to your advantage. But I wouldn't call that 'counting sorts'. And though I don't have much experience sorting so I can't claim to be definitive, having only say one card per deck be flawed seems to be extremely atypical as far as flawed decks go.
On the older Aristocrat decks, where the diamonds printed to the edge, you could sort using several categories. The Bee's were more difficult. Viewing the bottom of the card, a left/right asymmetry, and a vertical symmetry of varying degrees. This enabled the bac. players to sort using several categories, since you can write at the table. (But, you had to set close to the shoe). This meant that most of the cards were sorted in some manner, not just a few. The way in which the cards were placed on the printed sheets also helped create some favorable sorting.
After Elliot Jacobson, and Bill Zender exposed the problem, they started producing the brushed edges, which came with their own set of problems. In some ways, the new cards are actually better. You can also spot some of the newer card "sorts" from a much greater distance.
While you're debating whether or not it can be done, others are actually doing it. If you're wanting to know precisely how to do it, then you're going to have to wait for someone to write a book about it, five or ten years from now, or you'll need to order hundreds of used card decks from Ebay and do you're own research.
-Keyser
Quote: KeyserIt depends on the kind of sorts and cards you're studying.
On the older Aristocrat decks, where the diamonds printed to the edge, you could sort using several categories. The Bee's were more difficult. Viewing the bottom of the card, a left/right asymmetry, and a vertical symmetry of varying degrees. This enabled the bac. players to sort using several categories, since you can write at the table. (But, you had to set close to the shoe). This meant that most of the cards were sorted in some manner, not just a few. The way in which the cards were placed on the printed sheets also helped create some favorable sorting.
After Elliot Jacobson, and Bill Zender exposed the problem, they started producing the brushed edges, which came with their own set of problems. In some ways, the new cards are actually better. You can also spot some of the newer card "sorts" from a much greater distance.
While you're debating whether or not it can be done, others are actually doing it. If you're wanting to know precisely how to do it, then you're going to have to wait for someone to write a book about it, five or ten years from now, or you'll need to order hundreds of used card decks from Ebay and do you're own research.
-Keyser
Again, what you're now describing is in the realm of what I consider to be fantasy. Edge sorting requires sorting the cards. I grant you that if only a couple cards are anomalous, they can be used. If your claim is that you are using a legitimate method described by casino consultants, maybe you have a link to that. I'd have a hard time believing Jacobson wouldn't publicly disclose anything he knew to destroy an AP opportunity. I don't know why on earth I'd spend time and money researching what I'd consider to be nonsense. Seems like a silly suggestion with no discernible process from which to glean knowledge.
Quote: KeyserAgain, I think that you should stick to just counting.
Your method is a fabrication.
You decide.
Best of luck.
-Keyser
Quote: KeyserRS,
In some ways, the new white "brushed" edges are easier. Because it's easier to see "too much white" or "too little white" on the printed side card edge.
... and if there's a turn in the slugging or discard procedure, it makes it far less useful.
Good luck.
Quote: HunterhillThat's what I meant. You need the right procedures. Don't be so quick to dismiss keyser.That's all I will say
Dismissed. Mumbo-jumbo. Yes, you can trick the dealer into turning cards. Yes, an anomaly can be useful. No, counting sorts without anyone sorting the cards and with the dealer randomly turning or spinning them is not a viable method. It was brought up as a suggestion to a GREEN CC as to what he should do. Then suddenly it's a secret super-play, that the OP wouldn't have a clue about. And finally, it's exactly what I thought it was and lacks a better explanation.
As for the edge sorting, it sounds like you're trying to gain even more advantage instead of covering.
I suggest sticking with what you do best until they drag you out kicking and screaming. You'll need to subpoena the video in court, (that's 3 copies. one for the court, one for you and one for each defendant). Clearly shows I was raising and lowering my bets to me.
If you are really having a problem with the house knowing you are counting cards, your subconscious should be able to work it out. It's helps to know how the brain functions. It's going to do what it best best and there's nothing you can do about it. Remember that last raise you made? That decision was made for you months, maybe years ago. For me, it was made in 1992 to raise a bet last December.
Quote: lilredroosterHow about the redneck cover? People think rednecks are stupid. I'm not saying they are. So you show up at the table with a red baseball cap that says "John Deere." And you're wearing teeshirt that says "Jimmy Bob's Truck Stop - Gering, Nebraska." And of course some bad fitting and out of style jeans. Would it be at least a little bit helpful? I think so.
Only.problem.with this.is that John Deere EVERYTHING is deep kelly green. It's their signature color. A red Deere cap.would blow your cover immediately. Lol...
You want great cover in red, go get old U of Alabama gear, should include "A" logo cap, any championship tee worn under red hoodie, jeans or sweatpants, s!#/ kicker shoes. Grunt "Roll Tide" every time you win. Bonus accessory: Confederate flag emblem, small, somewhere on clothes or man-jewelry.
Quote: lilredroosterHow about the redneck cover? People think rednecks are stupid. I'm not saying they are. So you show up at the table with a red baseball cap that says "John Deere." And you're wearing teeshirt that says "Jimmy Bob's Truck Stop - Gering, Nebraska." And of course some bad fitting and out of style jeans. Would it be at least a little bit helpful? I think so.
Just wear a Nebraska baseball cap. When people ask what the "N" stands for tell them "knowledge".
Quote: lilredroosterHow about the redneck cover? People think rednecks are stupid. I'm not saying they are. So you show up at the table with a red baseball cap that says "John Deere." And you're wearing teeshirt that says "Jimmy Bob's Truck Stop - Gering, Nebraska." And of course some bad fitting and out of style jeans. Would it be at least a little bit helpful? I think so.
Just wear a Nebraska baseball cap. When people ask what the "N" stands for tell them "knowledge".
Quote: DRichJust wear a Nebraska baseball cap. When people ask what the "N" stands for tell them "knowledge".
i was playing at Caesars a long time ago and i happened to wander past their gift shop. it offered a baseball jacket with the name and logo of Caesars all over it on the front and back. it was a little bit expensive and i didn’t buy it but i thought to myself ‘what a great piece of clothing for cover. who but a completely idiot would walk around with this jacket blatantly advertising his high regard for this casino?’
Quote: lilredroosteri was playing at Caesars a long time ago and i happened to wander past their gift shop. it offered a baseball jacket with the name and logo of Caesars all over it on the front and back. it was a little bit expensive and i didn’t buy it but i thought to myself ‘what a great piece of clothing for cover. who but a completely #&$+! would walk around with this jacket blatantly advertising his high regard for this casino?’
Alan Mendelson...
http://alanbestbuys.com/id418.html
"THE DANGER OF WALKING INTO CAESARS PALACE
Update June 28, 2016 Everyone knows there is a financial danger everytime you walk into a casino, but there is a physical danger when you use a particular door to walk into Caesars Palace in Las Vegas. This is a personal story and normally I write about problems others encounter. Because this is a personal story, I have some insights and some video to actually show the danger. I am going to start with something visual that will illustrate that this was not a minor problem. Below is a photo of my outer jacket, which happened to be a windbreaker style jacket that I purchased in a gift shop at Caesars about a year ago. What you are seeing is a large amount of blood that came from a cut on my hand. That was the pool of blood deposited on my jacket after my cut hand brushed against the jacket. My cut hand also dripped blood on my right shoe, but because my shoes were dark brown the drops of blood were not visible."
