Leaving a Positive Count
So the count goes to +2. So I spread to two hands. She goes NO, you play two hands, NO. Dealer bust, he win now. Then the other guy at the table threw his lot in with her. So my choices were to cause a commotion and ignore them, lower my bet and play one hand--and since I was already pissed, be extremely angry if I lost the next hand, then spread to two, or I could just color up and leave. I left. Which screwed them all up, as I watched them both lower their bets and try to figure out if they should play another hand or what. I got some joy out of that. Idiots.
Any thoughts.
Rules allow you to play two hands. If they give you grief, call a floorman over to explain it to them
Quote: DJTeddyBearF 'em.
Rules allow you to play two hands. If they give you grief, call a floorman over to explain it to them
I'm already a known counter. Plus that seems a little childish. What's the floorman gonna do, make them be my friend?
Quote: RSWhy is "increase my bet and play 1 hand" not an option?
Variance, bankroll, ROR
Quote: SonuvabishWhat's the floorman gonna do, make them be my friend?
Tell them you have the right to play your way and to stop complaining.
Of course, if you're known counter that changes things. So I don't know what to tell you.
Ignore the players, turn to the dealer and say "Deal."
"Why you do that? You no split your fives, he break!"
Depending on how superstitious the ploppy, hitting 12 v 2, splitting 10's*, doubling A-8 v 6... also can help.
* unless they're suited, ranked, 10s. That's superstitiously beneficial, since you can't just leave 'em together.
Quote: SonuvabishSo most people are saying they would have complained to the pit boss or just tried to piss these people off by screwing up the flow (even though the latter is impossible)? I could have just played two and ignored them, it's not like they physically restrained me. They were unpleasant.
That one. And you're saying that the shoe was good. If you go to two hands and it results in a table win, they'll shut up.
Quote: DeucekiesQuote: SonuvabishSo most people are saying they would have complained to the pit boss or just tried to piss these people off by screwing up the flow (even though the latter is impossible)? I could have just played two and ignored them, it's not like they physically restrained me. They were unpleasant.
That one. And you're saying that the shoe was good. If you go to two hands and it results in a table win, they'll shut up.
Yeah the shoe was +2 TC. I hesitated leaving. But didn't wanna deal with the harassment if the cards went the wrong way. And I wasn't going to let them dictate how many hands I played. If the count had been higher, I would have stayed and probably even just told them to shut up (I was angry, don't forget). I guess a corollary question where is the line where you put up or don't put up with abuse for counting? When I first starting counting, I took a TON of abuse...I'd split 10s with almost minimum bets out on the table (because my BR was tiny, my spread was tiny)...so I was considered a moron. And I played like a robot. Now I don't even split them.
Quote: SonuvabishI am angry some idiot is telling me what to do
Walking is the prudent play.
Quote: DieterWalking is the prudent play.
Thanks
Quote: DeucekiesThose who are more well-versed at counting and being APs can weigh in better than I can, but I imagine an important skill in being a counter/AP is being able to tune out distractions, including other players at the table.
Agreed. But I don't necessarily put distractions and emotions in the same category. Someone annoying talks to me while there is a loud slot machine 3 inches from the table, I can keep the count. Someone gets me angry, I can keep the count...but I am not able to tune them out. I hate ploppies more than most I think.
Quote: RSIf someone can make you angry enough so you leave a table at a +count....perhaps you should work on your emotions so that doesn't happen.
That's what I was going for. If you'll let people like this stand in your way, you're gonna miss out on a lot of money.
Quote: RSIf someone can make you angry enough so you leave a table at a +count....perhaps you should work on your emotions so that doesn't happen.
So you're suggesting I cause commotion or let them dictate how I play more than I already do? If you have done this, please elaborate. It was +2...I gave up less than $10 worth of EV. If it were +5, I would have ignored them, then jetted when it dropped to neutral.
Quote: SonuvabishSo you're suggesting I cause commotion or let them dictate how I play more than I already do? If you have done this, please elaborate. It was +2...I gave up less than $10 worth of EV. If it were +5, I would have ignored them, then jetted when it dropped to neutral.
If my normal bet at +2 is 2x50, I would bet 1x50 or 1x60. Basic principle of CC: bet big when you have the advantage....bet 0 or very little when the casino has the advantage.....and don't walk away from an advantage!
You say you gave up $10 in EV....but what're you making per hour? If you're making $100/hour, then ya sure, $10 in EV isn't gonna effect you much. But I don't think you're making $100/hour if you're only giving up $10 in EV by leaving a +2. If your EV is $50/hour, then that $10 you gave up is much more significant.
Quote: RSIf my normal bet at +2 is 2x50, I would bet 1x50 or 1x60. Basic principle of CC: bet big when you have the advantage....bet 0 or very little when the casino has the advantage.....and don't walk away from an advantage!
You say you gave up $10 in EV....but what're you making per hour? If you're making $100/hour, then ya sure, $10 in EV isn't gonna effect you much. But I don't think you're making $100/hour if you're only giving up $10 in EV by leaving a +2. If your EV is $50/hour, then that $10 you gave up is much more significant.
Good point, I don't make 50/hr. That $5-$9 is not without significant risk of hundreds tho. +2 counts are not rare, they are common. The lunacy of not spreading to another hand because the dealer busted twice drives me nuts...maybe I should agree with their logic, and tell them to drop a hand.
Quote: SonuvabishSo you're suggesting I cause commotion or let them dictate how I play more than I already do? If you have done this, please elaborate. It was +2...I gave up less than $10 worth of EV. If it were +5, I would have ignored them, then jetted when it dropped to neutral.
If you simply ignore them and play your game, then you're not causing commotion. They are. You're just minding your own business and playing your game, which is your right.
If you go on a ten-minute lecture against those players, then you're causing commotion.
Quote: SonuvabishIt was +2...I gave up less than $10 worth of EV.
No, you recognized you were tilting and made a stop-loss play.
Ideally, you better control your tilt in future, so you can capitalize on the +EV.
Quote: DeucekiesIf you simply ignore them and play your game, then you're not causing commotion. They are. You're just minding your own business and playing your game, which is your right.
If you go on a ten-minute lecture against those players, then you're causing commotion.
Well yeah...but I don't like being involved. And when I first started, I was slapped by a ploppy. These weren't dangerous, drunk ploppies...but I don't like to be around hostile ploppies. I used to stubbornly refuse to leave a hostile table. Now I'm kinda reversing that position, wondering if I haven't quite found the happy middle yet.
Quote: DieterNo, you recognized you were tilting and made a stop-loss play.
Ideally, you better control your tilt in future, so you can capitalize on the +EV.
Completely wrong. I don't go on tilt or do stop-loss. I was slightly up for the day when this happened. I can get angry without going on tilt, I'm an AP, not a degenerate.
Quote: SonuvabishCompletely wrong. I don't go on tilt or do stop-loss.
If you weren't tilting, walking was -EV. If you were tilting, walking was the better play (still -EV, but lesser of two -EVils).
Quote: SonuvabishI can get angry without going on tilt, I'm an AP, not a degenerate.
If your emotions affect your play, isn't that tilt? It doesn't matter if you're feeling great because the session is going well and you deviate from plan or if you're feeling angry because things are going lousy and you deviate from plan or if you're annoyed by some fool next to you and that makes you go off plan - isn't it all the same effect?
I don't think I've ever met anyone who has perfect control of their emotions. I still consider it to be the prudent move to walk when your emotions are having (or may soon have) a significant effect on your actions.
Obviously, your mileage may vary.
Quote: Dieter
If your emotions affect your play, isn't that tilt?
That's kind of a loaded question. The best answer is no. I wasn't on tilt. My emotions do not effect how I play. In this case, the only effect was I did not play. I sacrificed a theoretical $6, plus or minus $300. So I could have saved myself money, bout a 49% chance I did. I viewed the count as a common opportunity. Someone on tilt, in my view, bets too much money in negative expectation, chasing losses--or something similar. There might be different definitions, but you have to have an expansive definition, outrageously expansive, to say I was on tilt.
Quote: SonuvabishMy emotions do not effect how I play.
Congratulations.
Yes, my question was loaded. And yes, my definition is broad. I'm still going to call it tilt, if emotions are influencing play to be suboptimal. It shouldn't matter if we're talking 1 red chip or a stack of purple - it's the same problem, as I see it.
Quote: DieterCongratulations.
Yes, my question was loaded. And yes, my definition is broad. I'm still going to call it tilt, if emotions are influencing play to be suboptimal. It shouldn't matter if we're talking 1 red chip or a stack of purple - it's the same problem, as I see it.
Tilt is caused by a loss, which leads to overly aggressive bets to recover the loss...which usually causes bigger losses. I don't think these concepts are remotely related. Though there is merit to suggest I should have still played as RS suggests (I myself had doubts, which started the post), I don't think anyone would disagree that this has nothing to do with tilt. Thinking everything is tilt, in my opinion, is not best way to avoid going on tilt...kinda like when driving at night, thinking every shadow is a person is not the best way to prevent a fatal car accident.
Quote: SonuvabishTilt is caused by a loss, which leads to overly aggressive bets to recover the loss...which usually causes bigger losses.
I don't see any particular difference between underbetting & overbetting for emotional reasons. I also don't see any particular difference based on the cause of the emotional response.
In either case, you're not playing the way you would if you were thinking straight.
Quote: SonuvabishTilt is caused by a loss
I don't agree with this at all. In poker, for example, tilt can be another player 'smack talking' you before or during a game even though you're not losing. He's trying to get in your head so you "want to beat him" and perhaps play a hand out of your range, or over bet/play a hand you shouldn't just to try to outdraw him. It's a very common tactic that has zero to do with currently winning, or losing.
It sounds like you're coming around to what you should have done. A page or two back you were very black and white that leaving or causing a commotion were your only two options... but they're not. If you've played this game for any amount of time or with any level of seriousness, you should also be an expert by now at interacting with ploppies; that's definitely part of the game. I have a ploppy excuse/reason/defuser for just about every situation. In almost every case I've ever experienced all you have to do is say some stupid plopply logic back to them. They'll argue with math all day, but they don't argue as much with voodoo.
In this situation I would absolutely continue playing during the positive TC, then left at a neutral count if they were bothering you, because it will effect your play (tilt). Hell, they/tilt already did effected your play here. Instead of betting 2x50, you bet 0x0... big difference. I would have posted 2x50 and when they started to tell me not to I'd say something moronic like "he hasn't busted 3 in a row all night, I'm trying to take his winning hand" or anything else that is completely retarded to say to them. This is another reason to have general conversation and befriend the ploppies early too.
From my experience most pro's seem to avoid/hate ploppies at all cost, including conversation. Maybe it's because I'm more of a people person, but I enjoy random conversation with people (not that they don't ever annoy me). One very +EV side effect of this is whenever I give them any kind of stupid answer like above, they'll almost always agree with my non-logic and root for me as though adding that extra hand was "the right thing." One of my favorites is when I go to sit out and they say I'll change "the flow" of the cards. I love stating "Hey go ahead and play my spot, but I've gotta stick to my rules. If I lose a few in a row, I make myself sit out. It's the only way to keep your money!"
tl/dr: Defuse the situation... beat stupid with stupid.
Quote: RomesI don't agree with this at all. In poker, for example, tilt can be another player 'smack talking' you before or during a game even though you're not losing. He's trying to get in your head so you "want to beat him" and perhaps play a hand out of your range, or over bet/play a hand you shouldn't just to try to outdraw him. It's a very common tactic that has zero to do with currently winning, or losing.
<snip>
tl/dr: Defuse the situation... beat stupid with stupid.
Shortened for reading, but the whole post is exactly what I thought as well. Your money; play your own game.
If you wanna go to 2 hands after dealer busting a few, "wow dealer busted 2 in a row....that can't go on forever...dealer would probably make a hand this time....so I'll change the flow ahead of time" or something.
Or just try to play 2 hands, if they make a ruckus, say you think 2 hands is better and once you lose, (and count is +) then go to 2 hands. Won't cost much in EV (especially if you bet 1x100 instead of 2x75 [the 150% thing]) and makes it easier to get away with.
Quote: RomesA page or two back you were very black and white that leaving or causing a commotion were your only two options
I specifically mentioned 3 options.
Quote: RomesI don't agree with this at all. In poker, for example, tilt can be another player 'smack talking' you before or during a game even though you're not losing. He's trying to get in your head so you "want to beat him" and perhaps play a hand out of your range, or over bet/play a hand you shouldn't just to try to outdraw him. It's a very common tactic that has zero to do with currently winning, or losing.
I wasn't playing. It apparently also has zero to do with wagering money.
Quote: Romes
From my experience most pro's seem to avoid/hate ploppies at all cost, including conversation.
I hate ploppies.
Quote: RSMake ploppies your friends early on....or at least, make them kinda like you, "nice hit!", " you saved the table", "nice stand on that one", etc. Hell, I've made people like me when they do obvious plays, ie: stand 16v6, dealer busts, I say "way to stand on that one you saved us all!" even though the player wouldn't have ever even considered hitting.
If you wanna go to 2 hands after dealer busting a few, "wow dealer busted 2 in a row....that can't go on forever...dealer would probably make a hand this time....so I'll change the flow ahead of time" or something.
Or just try to play 2 hands, if they make a ruckus, say you think 2 hands is better and once you lose, (and count is +) then go to 2 hands. Won't cost much in EV (especially if you bet 1x100 instead of 2x75 [the 150% thing]) and makes it easier to get away with.
I can barely stomach doing that when a likable, reasonably intelligent person sits down and decides I am the most likable person at the table, and never complains about anything I do. Nice hit? Wow you doubled an 11 against a 6, good job getting that 10, like skill was involved. Ugh. I prefer heads up, no convo, play and deal. I try to ease into transitions to avoid ploppy allergic reactions...but like I said, I pegged Asian lady for a troublemaker when I sat down, and I was right. All I learned was racial profiling is not wrong. Maybe that's why I was mad.
After they cried, thought about staying at one, then spreading to two if it lost. Spreading to two, I will raise my total bet by 25%. But in a snap decision, I only had a few seconds...I decided +2 was not by any means uncommon (good pen here), and I would exit the table. I was not so much ticked at the guy, the asian pissed me off.
BY THE WAY...i upgraded my count today. From time to time, I make small adjustments to my custom count. New record win.
Quote: SonuvabishI prefer heads up, no convo, play and deal...
Do you have shops that have a lot of empty tables at the limits you play? Any one of the 3 regular shops I play I'm almost always guaranteed at least a few other people at my table. So in my case, and many others, the game is quite often a sociable one; both for business, and pleasure. Perhaps it couldn't hurt to take a new outlook and go with the grain? I find it fun to make fiends with my table-mates, regardless of their lack of knowledge/skills.
I don't care if you pay me $1,000/hour. If it's something miserable I don't like doing, I won't do it very long. Life is to short to do something you aren't passionate about.
Quote: Sonuvabish...BY THE WAY...i upgraded my count today. From time to time, I make small adjustments to my custom count. New record win.
Congrats on the record win! Always nice to hear an AP doing well.
Quote: RomesDo you have shops that have a lot of empty tables at the limits you play?
I purposely show up at their slowest hours.
Quote: Romes
Congrats on the record win! Always nice to hear an AP doing well.
Thank you.
Quote: beachbumbabsShortened for reading, but the whole post is exactly what I thought as well. Your money; play your own game.
No offense BBB. but since you would technically be a ploppy if you sat at my table, whatever you think about my playing blackjack must be illogical. It's only logical ;)
Quote: Deucekies
That one. And you're saying that the shoe was good. If you go to two hands and it results in a table win, they'll shut up.
Not necessarily. If they're betting on side bets, they'll point out that you "made them lose" their side bets. Even if they win, they'll probably say "well, it worked THAT time, but you still shouldn't do it. The 'proper strategy' is to be consistent. If you change the number of spots, it 'ruins the order of the cards' in the long run".
Quote: nvr55xxNot necessarily. If they're betting on side bets, they'll point out that you "made them lose" their side bets. Even if they win, they'll probably say "well, it worked THAT time, but you still shouldn't do it. The 'proper strategy' is to be consistent. If you change the number of spots, it 'ruins the order of the cards' in the long run".
They were most definitely playing side bets.
Quote: SonuvabishI sat down at a table with two ploppies. One was a middle-aged Asian lady by herself. I thought, oh this idiot is gonna cause me a problem, since all middle-aged Asian women are superstitious and terrible at blackjack. Then I thought, that's racist, I have no reason to think that.
So the count goes to +2. So I spread to two hands. She goes NO, you play two hands, NO. Dealer bust, he win now. Then the other guy at the table threw his lot in with her. So my choices were to cause a commotion and ignore them, lower my bet and play one hand--and since I was already pissed, be extremely angry if I lost the next hand, then spread to two, or I could just color up and leave. I left. Which screwed them all up, as I watched them both lower their bets and try to figure out if they should play another hand or what. I got some joy out of that. Idiots.
Any thoughts.
I would reccomend that you tell them "If you think it'll 'ruin the order of the cards' you're more than welcome to sit out the next hand. It's MY MONEY and I'll play the way I want." As long as you (or them) aren't too loud, you probably don't have to worry too much about heat. Pit bosses hear this stuff all the time. However, some dealers and PBs will "give advice" to players and say that varying the spots "ruins the order of the cards", etc.
I once had a DEALER briefly stop the game and say "okay everybody, this guy's going to 2 spots, he's going to make everybody lose". After the dealer made his hand he said "see, I told you so". After a few rounds I was AHEAD a few dollars, and THEN the dealer said that I "seemed smart". I wonder why that dealer didn't earn a tip from me!?
Quote: nvr55xxI would reccomend that you tell them "If you think it'll 'ruin the order of the cards' you're more than welcome to sit out the next hand. It's MY MONEY and I'll play the way I want." As long as you (or them) aren't too loud, you probably don't have to worry too much about heat. Pit bosses hear this stuff all the time. However, some dealers and PBs will "give advice" to players and say that varying the spots "ruins the order of the cards", etc.
I once had a DEALER briefly stop the game and say "okay everybody, this guy's going to 2 spots, he's going to make everybody lose". After the dealer made his hand he said "see, I told you so". After a few rounds I was AHEAD a few dollars, and THEN the dealer said that I "seemed smart". I wonder why that dealer didn't earn a tip from me!?
I would do that if I was at the table, and they sat down. But they were there before I was. And this particular dealer respects me, probably aware I am counting. I'd like to appear professional, not childish or petty or weak.
Yes, I've had dealers do that before. They receive no tip, or politeness. And I don't usually stay long. I like when I win big. And don't tip.
Quote: RSMake ploppies your friends early on....or at least, make them kinda like you, "nice hit!", " you saved the table", "nice stand on that one", etc. Hell, I've made people like me when they do obvious plays, ie: stand 16v6, dealer busts, I say "way to stand on that one you saved us all!" even though the player wouldn't have ever even considered hitting.
If you wanna go to 2 hands after dealer busting a few, "wow dealer busted 2 in a row....that can't go on forever...dealer would probably make a hand this time....so I'll change the flow ahead of time" or something.
Or just try to play 2 hands, if they make a ruckus, say you think 2 hands is better and once you lose, (and count is +) then go to 2 hands. Won't cost much in EV (especially if you bet 1x100 instead of 2x75 [the 150% thing]) and makes it easier to get away with.
I love ploppies. They are all my friends. I love them so much that I refuse to use that term to describe them. A lot of people just want to play blackjack without the hassle of learning basic strategy and I'm fine with that. It's still better than playing most slots.
That person sitting next to you could be a brain surgeon, a Nobel Prize winner or who knows what. I have no long term evidence of unskilled players costing me any money.
Quote: SonuvabishNo offense BBB. but since you would technically be a ploppy if you sat at my table, whatever you think about my playing blackjack must be illogical. It's only logical ;)
If you actually trusted the math, your oh-so-skilled (compared to mine, apparently, though you've never played with me) play, and the fact that an unseen card is an unseen card, I don't think "us ploppies" would bother you at all. In fact, if you had the sense to use "us ploppies" as cover, like 1BB and some of the others, you'd benefit both in enjoying playing more (by not having to avoid all the ploppies to get on the game you want) and not tilting when you're at an advantage. And yes, you tilted by my understanding of the word.
But, again, your money, your game. I quit playing BJ more than 20 years ago because of all the bullying garbage that goes on at the table, similar to the misguided women you played with (your racism notwithstanding). If, on occasion, I'm drawn to it by circumstance or friendship, I NEVER make comments about other people's cards or bet structure. I just play my best game, which is BS when I remember to bring the card, and 95%+ BS when I don't (it never occurs to me to split 9's when I should until it's too late, for example). If I stop having fun, I get up. It's as simple as that.
So there I am, Madame LePloppy, providing you opportunities to Wong out, kill small cards and negative counts at my expense, distracting the dealer on occasion, visiting with the PB when he/she comes by, leaving the other people to play their game, shutting down the bullies when they speak up with nonsense, and you don't want to play with me. Your loss.
Quote: beachbumbabsIf you actually trusted the math, your oh-so-skilled (compared to mine, apparently, though you've never played with me) play, and the fact that an unseen card is an unseen card, I don't think "us ploppies" would bother you at all. In fact, if you had the sense to use "us ploppies" as cover, like 1BB and some of the others, you'd benefit both in enjoying playing more (by not having to avoid all the ploppies to get on the game you want) and not tilting when you're at an advantage. And yes, you tilted by my understanding of the word.
But, again, your money, your game. I quit playing BJ more than 20 years ago because of all the bullying garbage that goes on at the table, similar to the misguided women you played with (your racism notwithstanding). If, on occasion, I'm drawn to it by circumstance or friendship, I NEVER make comments about other people's cards or bet structure. I just play my best game, which is BS when I remember to bring the card, and 95%+ BS when I don't (it never occurs to me to split 9's when I should until it's too late, for example). If I stop having fun, I get up. It's as simple as that.
So there I am, Madame LePloppy, providing you opportunities to Wong out, kill small cards and negative counts at my expense, distracting the dealer on occasion, visiting with the PB when he/she comes by, leaving the other people to play their game, shutting down the bullies when they speak up with nonsense, and you don't want to play with me. Your loss.
Can we frame this post?
Quote: 1BBQuote: RSMake ploppies your friends early on....or at least, make them kinda like you, "nice hit!", " you saved the table", "nice stand on that one", etc. Hell, I've made people like me when they do obvious plays, ie: stand 16v6, dealer busts, I say "way to stand on that one you saved us all!" even though the player wouldn't have ever even considered hitting.
If you wanna go to 2 hands after dealer busting a few, "wow dealer busted 2 in a row....that can't go on forever...dealer would probably make a hand this time....so I'll change the flow ahead of time" or something.
Or just try to play 2 hands, if they make a ruckus, say you think 2 hands is better and once you lose, (and count is +) then go to 2 hands. Won't cost much in EV (especially if you bet 1x100 instead of 2x75 [the 150% thing]) and makes it easier to get away with.
I love ploppies. They are all my friends. I love them so much that I refuse to use that term to describe them. A lot of people just want to play blackjack without the hassle of learning basic strategy and I'm fine with that. It's still better than playing most slots.
That person sitting next to you could be a brain surgeon, a Nobel Prize winner or who knows what. I have no long term evidence of unskilled players costing me any money.
Did you mean to quote someone else?
I didn't say they were necessarily bad...just be proactive. Nor did I say they were stupid. You have no evidence ploppies cost you any money. Okay...? I think you meant to quote someone else...but can't tell.
