6 Crazy Shoes and Even Crazier Ploppies
August 15th, 2014 at 8:02:54 AM
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I have another thread (upcoming Vegas trip) I've been working on which I'll describe myself further since I'm a new poster to these particular forums, but for now I'm a part time counter using hi-low and I'm not a beginner... You can pick up that the game I was playing was 8D H17, but it's a beatable game and has amazing pen (87.5% on average =P), so let's focus on the amusing stories. So I ran to a local casino last night planning on only being there for a couple hours. What ensued was definitely on the upper echelon of my 8 year part time career for crazy dealer hands, and holy crap where did these Super Ploppies come from:
Play
I played only for about 2 hours which equated to 7 8D shoes. During each of these first 6 shoes the count plummeted, down to TC <= -1, so I went to the bathroom, took a call, sited that my strategy is to sit out when I lose a few in a row, etc... While I was playing the first few shoes all I could think of was AceOfSpades. I won 1, pushed 4, and lost 13 hands in my first 18 hands. These shoes were unreal for the dealer. The dealer hit 20 or 21 for 2 straight decks on 3 different shoes. The dealer didn't bust for half a shoe on a couple of them. I've never seen more dealer 20/21's in one measly 2 hour session; I couldn't believe it. The 2nd shoe I played I had 20 four times in a row. I pushed 3 of them and lost the fourth to a 5 card dealer 21. This was also off the top and RC hovered around 0. I jumped in at the end of one of them because TC >= +2 and actually won my min bet losses back. The place was actually packed from a professional team game near by so I couldn't try to jump tables, so it took a lot of patiently sitting out during these really bad negative counts. The final shoe started with me getting a BJ, and the dealer getting a BJ. The RC tanked to -8 so I used the "I can't win on BJ, I'm sitting out!" The count got more negative and after a deck I said that I'd think about coming back in when the dealer busted, joking with the players/dealer. Well he didn't bust for 4 decks, hitting 20/21 after 20/21. When he finally busted the RC turned positive, so I hopped in. It was up and down, but the last couple decks of the shoe were all TC +2 to +4. I took a couple more nasty beats with 20 to 5 card 21's with TC +4, but won a couple more decent bets than I lost for an overall whopping profit for the 2 hours of 5.5 units. Hey, I'm just happy with these shoes to have walked away with positive EV and a small amount of profit! Thank God I sat out most of those shoes... or would I have changed the flow of the cards??? lol
Interesting/Unfortunate Exchange
This next part I'm a bit disappointed in myself for getting involved, but here's what happened. Some guy next to me has A-8 vs dealer 6 and asks me "Isn't this a double?" I usually only give advice when people ask, so I said "Yep." The dealer laughed at me and said "I would never double that!" With no other words exchanged she then calls the pit boss over to 'asks him' (i.e. make fun of me) and he laughs and said never as well. At that time the regular dealer was coming back in the game, whom I've played with before, and she also agreed to not double. Again, I didn't say anything else they were running wild with it. One of the other players said "I wish we could bet if that's right!" so I said "I've got $100 right here that says we pull up BS for this game and I'm right." I was half joking because no one ever takes those bets, they usually just shut up, but the dealer said "Oh we can pull up basic strategy on our screens here!" She calls the PB over and tells him to pull it up. When the PB said it didn't double, I knew he had the rules for S17 game, where as ALL the tables they have are H17 (except the high limit room). Thankfully he's a craps PB normally and quickly exits uninterested. The player says "Pay up!" jokingly because they didn't actually accept my bet. I then unfortunately said "Sorry, you still lose. That's the rules for a Stand 17 game, we're playing a Hit 17 game, look it up. They even sell the wrong BS cards downstairs." I've played with the dealer before and we were friendly because she noticed I was from the same hometown as her when I showed my ID for a free play I had, so she believed I knew exactly what I was talking about (which is what I'm regretting). She then stated she was furious with the casino for teaching her the wrong rules and she feels horrible because she's been telling people how to play their hands wrong. She even yelled to the breaker that went 1 table down (that originally laughed at me) that I was right and they learned the wrong rules. She said she was even going to take the matter to management because it's a horrible thing they do to sell us the wrong cards and have their dealers tell us the wrong strategy... I hope she doesn't mention my name when this happens lol, not that this particular casino is a big deal to me anyways, but of course I don't want to deal with that!
Super Ploppies
- Guy watching the table, even when a seat opened up now and then for 2-3 shoes. They were all negative, which I sat out with one excuse or another =D, so I thought maybe he was back counting. Then he asked someone to double their hard 12 vs dealer 4 and also explain that there's only 1 card that can hurt you, and that he loves doubling 12 no matter what! I didn't say anything but couldn't help but slightly smile. He seemed to take notice then looked at me and said "It's true, name another card!" So I said "K, Q, J, 10, oh and A, 2, 3, 4... because 13 through 16 is the same as 12... you need the dealer to bust." He looked like his world had been shattered for a brief moment, then decided I must be talking voodoo and shook his head stating "I'll double 12 to ANYTHING I get!" I kept quiet and the game continued. He joined the game, finally, the next shoe and kept getting blackjacks on min bets, and getting mad about it because they were min bets. He then proceeded to full double down every time he got 12, no matter the dealers up card, including 10 and ace a couple times. He was one of the more annoying players as EVERY time he got his first card he'd repeatedly yell what he wanted his second card to be to make an 11... So if he got a 7, he'd yell "Come on 4, dealer give me a 4!" like 3-4 times before she got back to give him his 2nd card. He loves 12 so much I'm surprised he wasn't rooting for whatever makes him a 12, since that's an automatic double in his world. He mostly lost money but I left before he did so I can only assume how he finished.
- The guy to my left is probably the best guy in the world for the casino. The definition of a ploppy. Looks like some slightly overweight business guy betting $25-$75 and betting hard on the Perfect Pair sidebet every hand and consistently losing. If someone wanted to sit out or leave the table he'd seriosuly try to get them not to because he wanted to keep the flow of the cards (even though the table was losing horrifically). I told him sorry I gotta follow my own rules and sit out after losing a few, but offered to let him play my spot, for now, to keep the flow. It's really easy to disarm ploppies usually if you say something stupid back to them. Anyways, this guy doubled pretty much every other hand he got. When the dealer didn't have a face card, he'd double on 6 through 11 and any soft hand to any 'bust' card (even though he almost didn't pull the trigger on the A-8, becuase hey that's 19!). Yes, btw, even with the dealers laughing he did double the A-8. When I went to sit out again 'after a couple losses' he looked at me with all seriousness and said "dude we NEED your hand! It'll mess everything up!" Amazingly another woman he didn't know, who up till now was kind of quiet, started 'bawking' at me like a chicken too. I've played with a lot of ploppies, but wow what a super table of them all night!
-Enter Mr. Super Ploppy. The guy who hits any hand vs ANY dealer card until he has 17 or better. The guy who doesn't double down on ANY hand. The guy who splits EVERY pair he gets! During play he got 5-5 vs dealer 8. He motioned for a hit, but with 2 fingers (without putting any more money up). I knew he wanted to split, but the dealer gave him another card, 10, for a total of 20. He then stopped the game and said he wanted to split his 5-5, yes to the dealer's 8, and after getting 20. I said nothing but couldn't help but be amused at this point... I know he's just as likely to help as hurt me, which he helped once already! I also knew the other ploppies would attack =p. Other ploppies all told him he didn't want to. He looked rather pissed but finally he heard someone repeating "you have 20" so he said he'd stick with it, and won when the dealer flipped a 10 for 18. He also saw someone across the table win once on the side bet (Perfect Pair), so he started betting it every hand. To no avail he hit it 3 times in a row the moment he started playing it and when I left he lost his chips but had 2 black chips in his pocket he colored up from those side bet hits. I assume he cashed them in and lost them, but who knows... Maybe he saved them for another day so Mr. Super Ploppy could strike once more!
I know there's another thread about ploppies, but being the crazy shoes, soft 19 debachle, and a super table of ploppies I thought it deserved it's own. Feel free to share any recent ploppy activity of your own! Have you seen Mr. Super Ploppy? What about perfect house ploppy? Has anyone ever 'bawked' at you like a chicken?
Play
I played only for about 2 hours which equated to 7 8D shoes. During each of these first 6 shoes the count plummeted, down to TC <= -1, so I went to the bathroom, took a call, sited that my strategy is to sit out when I lose a few in a row, etc... While I was playing the first few shoes all I could think of was AceOfSpades. I won 1, pushed 4, and lost 13 hands in my first 18 hands. These shoes were unreal for the dealer. The dealer hit 20 or 21 for 2 straight decks on 3 different shoes. The dealer didn't bust for half a shoe on a couple of them. I've never seen more dealer 20/21's in one measly 2 hour session; I couldn't believe it. The 2nd shoe I played I had 20 four times in a row. I pushed 3 of them and lost the fourth to a 5 card dealer 21. This was also off the top and RC hovered around 0. I jumped in at the end of one of them because TC >= +2 and actually won my min bet losses back. The place was actually packed from a professional team game near by so I couldn't try to jump tables, so it took a lot of patiently sitting out during these really bad negative counts. The final shoe started with me getting a BJ, and the dealer getting a BJ. The RC tanked to -8 so I used the "I can't win on BJ, I'm sitting out!" The count got more negative and after a deck I said that I'd think about coming back in when the dealer busted, joking with the players/dealer. Well he didn't bust for 4 decks, hitting 20/21 after 20/21. When he finally busted the RC turned positive, so I hopped in. It was up and down, but the last couple decks of the shoe were all TC +2 to +4. I took a couple more nasty beats with 20 to 5 card 21's with TC +4, but won a couple more decent bets than I lost for an overall whopping profit for the 2 hours of 5.5 units. Hey, I'm just happy with these shoes to have walked away with positive EV and a small amount of profit! Thank God I sat out most of those shoes... or would I have changed the flow of the cards??? lol
Interesting/Unfortunate Exchange
This next part I'm a bit disappointed in myself for getting involved, but here's what happened. Some guy next to me has A-8 vs dealer 6 and asks me "Isn't this a double?" I usually only give advice when people ask, so I said "Yep." The dealer laughed at me and said "I would never double that!" With no other words exchanged she then calls the pit boss over to 'asks him' (i.e. make fun of me) and he laughs and said never as well. At that time the regular dealer was coming back in the game, whom I've played with before, and she also agreed to not double. Again, I didn't say anything else they were running wild with it. One of the other players said "I wish we could bet if that's right!" so I said "I've got $100 right here that says we pull up BS for this game and I'm right." I was half joking because no one ever takes those bets, they usually just shut up, but the dealer said "Oh we can pull up basic strategy on our screens here!" She calls the PB over and tells him to pull it up. When the PB said it didn't double, I knew he had the rules for S17 game, where as ALL the tables they have are H17 (except the high limit room). Thankfully he's a craps PB normally and quickly exits uninterested. The player says "Pay up!" jokingly because they didn't actually accept my bet. I then unfortunately said "Sorry, you still lose. That's the rules for a Stand 17 game, we're playing a Hit 17 game, look it up. They even sell the wrong BS cards downstairs." I've played with the dealer before and we were friendly because she noticed I was from the same hometown as her when I showed my ID for a free play I had, so she believed I knew exactly what I was talking about (which is what I'm regretting). She then stated she was furious with the casino for teaching her the wrong rules and she feels horrible because she's been telling people how to play their hands wrong. She even yelled to the breaker that went 1 table down (that originally laughed at me) that I was right and they learned the wrong rules. She said she was even going to take the matter to management because it's a horrible thing they do to sell us the wrong cards and have their dealers tell us the wrong strategy... I hope she doesn't mention my name when this happens lol, not that this particular casino is a big deal to me anyways, but of course I don't want to deal with that!
Super Ploppies
- Guy watching the table, even when a seat opened up now and then for 2-3 shoes. They were all negative, which I sat out with one excuse or another =D, so I thought maybe he was back counting. Then he asked someone to double their hard 12 vs dealer 4 and also explain that there's only 1 card that can hurt you, and that he loves doubling 12 no matter what! I didn't say anything but couldn't help but slightly smile. He seemed to take notice then looked at me and said "It's true, name another card!" So I said "K, Q, J, 10, oh and A, 2, 3, 4... because 13 through 16 is the same as 12... you need the dealer to bust." He looked like his world had been shattered for a brief moment, then decided I must be talking voodoo and shook his head stating "I'll double 12 to ANYTHING I get!" I kept quiet and the game continued. He joined the game, finally, the next shoe and kept getting blackjacks on min bets, and getting mad about it because they were min bets. He then proceeded to full double down every time he got 12, no matter the dealers up card, including 10 and ace a couple times. He was one of the more annoying players as EVERY time he got his first card he'd repeatedly yell what he wanted his second card to be to make an 11... So if he got a 7, he'd yell "Come on 4, dealer give me a 4!" like 3-4 times before she got back to give him his 2nd card. He loves 12 so much I'm surprised he wasn't rooting for whatever makes him a 12, since that's an automatic double in his world. He mostly lost money but I left before he did so I can only assume how he finished.
- The guy to my left is probably the best guy in the world for the casino. The definition of a ploppy. Looks like some slightly overweight business guy betting $25-$75 and betting hard on the Perfect Pair sidebet every hand and consistently losing. If someone wanted to sit out or leave the table he'd seriosuly try to get them not to because he wanted to keep the flow of the cards (even though the table was losing horrifically). I told him sorry I gotta follow my own rules and sit out after losing a few, but offered to let him play my spot, for now, to keep the flow. It's really easy to disarm ploppies usually if you say something stupid back to them. Anyways, this guy doubled pretty much every other hand he got. When the dealer didn't have a face card, he'd double on 6 through 11 and any soft hand to any 'bust' card (even though he almost didn't pull the trigger on the A-8, becuase hey that's 19!). Yes, btw, even with the dealers laughing he did double the A-8. When I went to sit out again 'after a couple losses' he looked at me with all seriousness and said "dude we NEED your hand! It'll mess everything up!" Amazingly another woman he didn't know, who up till now was kind of quiet, started 'bawking' at me like a chicken too. I've played with a lot of ploppies, but wow what a super table of them all night!
-Enter Mr. Super Ploppy. The guy who hits any hand vs ANY dealer card until he has 17 or better. The guy who doesn't double down on ANY hand. The guy who splits EVERY pair he gets! During play he got 5-5 vs dealer 8. He motioned for a hit, but with 2 fingers (without putting any more money up). I knew he wanted to split, but the dealer gave him another card, 10, for a total of 20. He then stopped the game and said he wanted to split his 5-5, yes to the dealer's 8, and after getting 20. I said nothing but couldn't help but be amused at this point... I know he's just as likely to help as hurt me, which he helped once already! I also knew the other ploppies would attack =p. Other ploppies all told him he didn't want to. He looked rather pissed but finally he heard someone repeating "you have 20" so he said he'd stick with it, and won when the dealer flipped a 10 for 18. He also saw someone across the table win once on the side bet (Perfect Pair), so he started betting it every hand. To no avail he hit it 3 times in a row the moment he started playing it and when I left he lost his chips but had 2 black chips in his pocket he colored up from those side bet hits. I assume he cashed them in and lost them, but who knows... Maybe he saved them for another day so Mr. Super Ploppy could strike once more!
I know there's another thread about ploppies, but being the crazy shoes, soft 19 debachle, and a super table of ploppies I thought it deserved it's own. Feel free to share any recent ploppy activity of your own! Have you seen Mr. Super Ploppy? What about perfect house ploppy? Has anyone ever 'bawked' at you like a chicken?
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
August 15th, 2014 at 8:25:35 AM
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Fun report.
Don't care for the idea of ever getting into a BS discussion, they seldom end well in my observation and most of us would pretend not to know or say "sometimes I do, sometimes I don't" to the question of hit, stand, double etc on a given combo. Just sayin'
Don't care for the idea of ever getting into a BS discussion, they seldom end well in my observation and most of us would pretend not to know or say "sometimes I do, sometimes I don't" to the question of hit, stand, double etc on a given combo. Just sayin'
August 15th, 2014 at 8:34:50 AM
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Yeah, I pretty much never get involved and only give advice when asked or making a scavenger play... "I'll risk it with you!" I guess the table of all super ploppies making fun of me for giving the correct opinion irked me just a bit (again it normally doesn't). I don't think it helped that in my opinion the breaker dealer was quite rude to laugh at me and call the PB over to make fun of me when I wasn't even saying anything else. Even so, at least it made for a quite interesting evening lol.
edit - Surprised I didn't get 'bawked' at from chickenman =P
edit - Surprised I didn't get 'bawked' at from chickenman =P
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
August 15th, 2014 at 8:55:59 AM
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Quote: RomesShe then stated she was furious with the casino for teaching her the wrong rules and she feels horrible because she's been telling people how to play their hands wrong.
... the most insightful part, I think.
Local place gives away S17 strategy cards that apply to none of their games, and there are at least a few dealers who cite the "F"'s guideline (never split Fours, Fives, or Faces), even on the DAS tables.
I'm relieved to hear that she feels bad about it. It gives one hope.
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 15th, 2014 at 8:56:06 AM
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if you count im not sure why this even phases you- its pretty standard stuff at every casino- I lost a 2k bet last night with 88 vs a 6 because the guy ahead of me had a 2/3 of hearts and flipped a coin literally at the table- then doubled to pull a 6
if they cards played out normally he would have had 21 and I would have had another split and a double making his coin flip almost a 8k difference for me
obviosly dealer would have busted and I would have won both- instead lost eveyting
if they cards played out normally he would have had 21 and I would have had another split and a double making his coin flip almost a 8k difference for me
obviosly dealer would have busted and I would have won both- instead lost eveyting
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
August 15th, 2014 at 9:04:02 AM
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I enjoyed your report. The results that you experienced are completely normal, especially with eight decks.
I never discuss strategy at the table. Nothing good can come from it and it could impact you negatively. I do mention my hunches and gut feelings.
I regularly play with poor players. Contrary to popular belief, they are not only found at the $10 and $15 tables. I like the word ploppy but I refrain from using it because it can sound derogatory. Is the brain surgeon or the scientist a ploppy because they didn't split 9s? Poor players "pay" me and keep the rules from further deteriorating. Their playing decisions don't phase me one iota. The only thing that will drive me from a table would be their slow play. Many of them play surprisingly fast in a kind of rip the bandage off style.
The casino doesn't sell the "wrong" strategy cards, the players don't bother to read what game they are for. It's on there somewhere.
I never discuss strategy at the table. Nothing good can come from it and it could impact you negatively. I do mention my hunches and gut feelings.
I regularly play with poor players. Contrary to popular belief, they are not only found at the $10 and $15 tables. I like the word ploppy but I refrain from using it because it can sound derogatory. Is the brain surgeon or the scientist a ploppy because they didn't split 9s? Poor players "pay" me and keep the rules from further deteriorating. Their playing decisions don't phase me one iota. The only thing that will drive me from a table would be their slow play. Many of them play surprisingly fast in a kind of rip the bandage off style.
The casino doesn't sell the "wrong" strategy cards, the players don't bother to read what game they are for. It's on there somewhere.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
August 15th, 2014 at 9:21:05 AM
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Quote: 1BBThe casino doesn't sell the "wrong" strategy cards, the players don't bother to read what game they are for. It's on there somewhere.
It says "BASIC STRATEGY FOR MULTI-DECK".
It most certainly does not say "Basic Strategy for Blackjack where dealer stands on Soft 17 and Double After Split is allowed, which is not a game we offer here."
I've blanked the casino name. (It said "((casino) University" at the bottom - they give the cards out at their player training table.)
I'd be less offended if they were giving out simple strategy cards for blackjack, with the caution "this isn't perfect strategy, but it's very close, and the difference in wins is only about a hand an hour".
As is, they're underscoring that myth that the casinos wrote the basic strategy as a way to have players play their hands wrong.
Edit: A/7 vs 7 & 8 is wrong, anyway, so I have no idea what it's good for, other than making the casino money.
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 15th, 2014 at 9:32:59 AM
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Quote: strictlyAPif you count im not sure why this even phases you- its pretty standard stuff at every casino- I lost a 2k bet last night with 88 vs a 6 because the guy ahead of me had a 2/3 of hearts and flipped a coin literally at the table- then doubled to pull a 6
if they cards played out normally he would have had 21 and I would have had another split and a double making his coin flip almost a 8k difference for me
obviosly dealer would have busted and I would have won both- instead lost eveyting
Ouch, sorry to hear about the poor variance. Like I said it mostly never bothers me. Play wise, I'm a machine. Environment wise, I've counted long enough (even part time) that I can have a conversation or two and it won't effect me whatsoever. So I enjoy the social aspect of having conversations / 'rooting' for the table as it makes for more of a fun session, even though I'm well aware of why I'm there and what I need to do at all times.
Quote: 1BBI enjoyed your report. The results that you experienced are completely normal, especially with eight decks.
Yep, another fun thing about 8 decks. I've seen a lot of negative counts / bad shoes, I guess this just stuck out because there was a lot of them in a row that were really rather awful. To agree with Dieter, I believe when I checked their BS cards it didn't say S17 =/.
edit - Next time I'm up there I'll snap a picture... If the dealer doesn't complain and get them changed =p.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
