Another charitable gaming "house edge" question (or two)
Quote: RivaHis responds was that that players would never stand still for the house taking ties like in a traditional BJ game.
I hate to be pedantic but in what casino do the players lose their ties???? (Apart from Pontoon of course but most Americans have never heard of the game so that doesn't count)
Charity games are usually raking the players in the name of charity (I do understand the concept) so I'm not sure either would make much of a difference. Both are horrible and should never be offered.
Can your charity evenings not make enough with regular games such as 6:5 blackjack, H17, double only 9-11, resplit 4 times - NO DOUBLE, split ACES only once?
I mean that game alone should be worth 2.25% and the people are still feeling like they are playing a close derivation of the real thing and not losing ties or pushing blackjacks or even money or whatever else goes on?
Perhaps both of you guys should look at other options instead of literally sticking your hands in players pockets and removing their money?
Quote: TomspurI hate to be pedantic but in what casino do the players lose their ties???? (Apart from Pontoon of course but most Americans have never heard of the game so that doesn't count)
Charity games are usually raking the players in the name of charity (I do understand the concept) so I'm not sure either would make much of a difference. Both are horrible and should never be offered.
Can your charity evenings not make enough with regular games such as 6:5 blackjack, H17, double only 9-11, resplit 4 times - NO DOUBLE, split ACES only once?
I mean that game alone should be worth 2.25% and the people are still feeling like they are playing a close derivation of the real thing and not losing ties or pushing blackjacks or even money or whatever else goes on?
Perhaps both of you guys should look at other options instead of literally sticking your hands in players pockets and removing their money?
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Quote: RivaTomspur, you simply do not get it!
A charity game simply can not operate on a 2%-5% HE in the short time window they re open for busines, a Caino can. A charity does not have the luxury of being open for 24/7 & 365 having a 2%-5% HE. Rather, we have EIGHT HOURS, ONE DAY PER YEAR!. We must make money during that window. We can not afford, nor expose ourselves to, betting swings that we can not recover from during the 8 hours we are open for business!
My suggestion is stop comparing us to a real casino and help us with the math. Thanks.
With that stinky attitude you will get no more help from me, not that I'm sure you care but neither do I.
Just for the record, I was not comparing you to a real casino, I was merely mentioning that there are other ways to present the game that would still be enjoyable for the players and profitable for you.
If you ask me, and I have had this argument many times with casino executives.....what is more important, hold or drop. Once you figure that out, then perhaps you will understand how gaming really works.
BTW: I have run casinos on cruise ships for many a year where your result hangs in the balance every night due to wild swings and only a few tables. I would imagine the casino won on 98% of the nights even with horrible games like blackjack HE being set at about 0.46%......
I would imagine you have more than 7 or 8 tables a night don't you?
Before you tell other people who have in the past (and are now) trying to help you, that they "simply don't get it", perhaps you want to listen to reason and come up with a plan based on all the info here?
I'm done with you and your charity.
Quote: RivaTomspur, you simply do not get it!
A charity game simply can not operate on a 2%-5% HE in the short time window they re open for business; a real Casino can. A charity does not have the luxury of being open for 24/7 & 365 having a 2%-5% HE. Rather, we have EIGHT HOURS, ONE DAY PER YEAR!. We must make money during that window. We can not afford, nor expose ourselves to, betting swings that we can not recover from during the 8 hours we are open for business!
My suggestion is stop comparing us to a real casino and help us with the math. Thanks.
It is just wrong to take ties. I hate that these rooms hide behind the idea of it being for charity. There is a lot of money being made by both a charity and by the organizer. You think people are ok with the idea of playing a lesser game because it is going to charity. That is simply not true. People don't understand how bad they are being taken. If you really feel that people would be ok playing these horrible games then you should post it that the house edge is 25% compares to 2% at a casino and see how people feel about that.
Next up, nigerian email scams for charity!
The bottom line is the charity has to have a lot of money to make money with a 3% edge so they don't bust in the long run.
Quote: Lonewolf
The bottom line is the charity has to have a lot of money to make money with a 3% edge so they don't bust in the long run.
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Quote: LonewolfAnything less than 3/2 on a blackjack isn't blackjack, it's a scam. If a charity still can't afford to handle short term losses then they don't have any business opening such a game. The worst rules I could make with my HE calc is 3% HE. If I found a game like that in real life that was a player edge of 3% I'd never leave the casino.
The bottom line is the charity has to have a lot of money to make money with a 3% edge so they don't bust in the long run.
They take ties. That's 9% or something ridiculous like that.
(Edit -- ignore my 10-1 comment, if yo saw it before I deleted it)
Quote: GWAEPeople don't understand how bad they are being taken. If you really feel that people would be ok playing these horrible games then you should post it that the house edge is 25% compares to 2% at a casino and see how people feel about that.
It would stop less people than you might guess, I'm afraid. 90% of players could care less about the math.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThey take ties. That's 9% or something ridiculous like that.
Roughly yes. Better rules would be nicer, and possibly could make more money if volume is increased enough.
But it's a "charity casino", people aren't forced to gamble there. If gambling rules are important to them than the money earned for the school/other charities by playing, then they should bother to drive to an actual casino and donate to the charity directly.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThey take ties. That's 9% or something ridiculous like that.
(Edit -- ignore my 10-1 comment, if yo saw it before I deleted it)
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Quote: RivaYes, but we pay 2:1 on blackjack. Nor 3:2. Not 6:5. 2:1!!! What is your problem?
My question is, and still remains... what is better...paying 1;1 on a BJ or the house taking ties?
For the player, even money blackjack and it's not close. To earn money for the charity, probably 2:1 BJ and dealer winning ties.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI know of a couple charity poker rooms that have standard casino, 3:2 blackjack.
Yes, charity does not imply scam. It's up to the people who run it.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYes, charity does not imply scam. It's up to the people who run it.
Our rules were:
$2-$20.
6 decks.
S17.
Bj pays 3:2, rounded up on odd bets. I.E. a $3 bj would get you $5.
DOA.
DAS.
No surrender.
Unlimited splits.
Aces split once.
Insurance with ace or ten up. Yes, you could bet insurance with a ten up and win with an ace in the hole. And this paid 2:1.
Dealer wins ties 17-19. 20-21 pushed.
Bj automatically wins.
I think Its still called 69. Lets ask DJatc.Quote: rudeboyoiWhat happens on BJ vs BJ?
Quote: Toes14Can someone please explain what charity gaming is? Maybe this is something not allowed in Missouri, so I haven't experienced it. Surely this is different than the Caino nights we used to have at Catholic churches in St. Louis before our casinos opened here. Those were played with monopoly money for a one time entry fee to the event. This sounds different. What's the deal on it?
All you got to know about charity gaming is that its something that should be avoided.
Can you tell us the break down of where the money goes and how much? I have a feeling someone is Making money. If 2% of the profits are going to some private religious school I don't consider that a good charitable cause.Quote: RivaTomspur, you simply do not get it!
A charity game simply can not operate on a 2%-5% HE in the short time window they re open for business; a real Casino can. A charity does not have the luxury of being open for 24/7 & 365 having a 2%-5% HE. Rather, we have EIGHT HOURS, ONE DAY PER YEAR!. We must make money during that window. We can not afford, nor expose ourselves to, betting swings that we can not recover from during the 8 hours we are open for business!
My suggestion is stop comparing us to a real casino and help us with the math. Thanks.
I was horrified when I hear you people hold 10% or more.
As someone pointed out. I have no doubt there is rampant cheating going on by everyone involved.
Quote: Toes14Can someone please explain what charity gaming is? Maybe this is something not allowed in Missouri, so I haven't experienced it. Surely this is different than the Caino nights we used to have at Catholic churches in St. Louis before our casinos opened here. Those were played with monopoly money for a one time entry fee to the event. This sounds different. What's the deal on it?
Definitely not legal in Missouri. It's basically casino games become legal when (most/all?) of the profits go to charity. Some states (michigan, ohio, kentucky) and probably a handful of others allow this.
Quote: Toes14Can someone please explain what charity gaming is? Maybe this is something not allowed in Missouri, so I haven't experienced it. Surely this is different than the Casino nights we used to have at Catholic churches in St. Louis before our casinos opened here. Those were played with monopoly money for a one time entry fee to the event. This sounds different. What's the deal on it?
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Quote: RivaI shared that there are a ton more "tie" scenarios than "blackjack events" and, that more players will bust out trying to avoid a tie compared to a measly house concession that a BJ only pays 1:1.
With the house winning ties proper BS says you should actually stand on stiffs more often, because the EV of hitting is lower since pushes become losses but the dealer bust rate stays the same.
Quote: djatcAll this charity talk makes me wonder: are there hole carding opportunities? This is for my charity.
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Quote: KellynbnfWith the house winning ties proper BS says you should actually stand on stiffs more often, because the EV of hitting is lower since pushes become losses but the dealer bust rate stays the same.
Yep, Wizard covered that for S17 games:
Quote: tringlomaneYep, Wizard covered that for S17 games:
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Quote: AxiomOfChoicelol... the only way to offset a 9% house edge is to play terribly and make it even worse. Good theory. Right up there with the "gotta fight fire with fire" theory of putting out fires.
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Quote: RivaYikes! I am simply sharing on how certain players play in light of the house rules. The bottom line is that they do not have to play. Rather, they can go to one of the big casinos and wager $25 minimum on any bet in the house. Boy, that's a bargain.
What you fail to understand is that most players come to our events with $50 in their pocket to gamble. The house makes about 20% - 30% of that wagering or $15 per player. That's not so frick'n terrible considering the entertainment value one gets. We make out because there are 300 - 500 players providing us $15 per head. And to repeat, 100% of the money goes to the charity.
Who pays you?
Quote: RivaRather, they can go to one of the big casinos and wager $25 minimum on any bet in the house. Boy, that's a bargain.
Many real casinos have $5 minimum wagers and house edge that are an order of magnitude lower than yours.
Luckily for you, people are idiots and don't know the difference so you can steal their money with impunity.
Quote: rudeboyoiWho pays you?
Nobody. I am a volunteer. Never charged a dime in 20 years.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceMany real casinos have $5 minimum wagers and house edge that are an order of magnitude lower than yours.
Luckily for you, people are idiots and don't know the difference so you can steal their money with impunity.
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Quote: rudeboyoiHave you taught your dealers to remind players about the max they can win yet or are you still accepting wagers they can only lose?
Don't you understand? Not getting paid when you win is part of the entertainment!
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDon't you understand? Not getting paid when you win is part of the entertainment!
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Quote: RivaI guess that makes all the players stupid and you the only genius in the classroom.
Not quite, but you're in the ballpark.
Quote: Riva
If I were a betting man, I would bet that you still have your first communion money!
We finally have an answer to one old question...I do like the memorial to the great dog, though.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceNot quite, but you're in the ballpark.
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Quote: tringlomaneRoughly how far is the nearest Indian or state-run casino to the school?
Nearest Indian casino is 100 miles or so. The 3 Detroit Casinos (non tribal) are 20 miles down the street.
Quote: DRichEven if the charity has a 9% house edge that is better than the majority of slot machine in casinos.
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Quote: DRichEven if the charity has a 9% house edge that is better than the majority of slot machine in casinos.
I don't think that it makes a lot of sense to compare house edges across completely different games without considering variance, etc. Blackjack and slots are not similar games.
Furthermore, the 9% number (or whatever, I don't know the exact rules) assumes optimal play. As Riva pointed out, most of the players follow a "never bust" strategy which is one of the worst possible ways to play blackjack.
I'm impressed if EVERYONE all the way to the top is entirely Volunteer with no salary or perks at all, and 100% of the money goes to a GOOD charity for the poor or disabled. I'm Not talking about new uniforms for the private school rich kids. Normally someone is getting a cut, kickbacks or a salary somewhere.Quote: Riva!
What kind of charities does the money go to?
Quote: AxelWolfI'm impressed if EVERYONE all the way to the top is entirely Volunteer with no salary or perks at all, and 100% of the money goes to a GOOD charity for the poor or disabled. I'm Not talking about new uniforms for the private school rich kids. Normally someone is getting a cut, kickbacks or a salary somewhere.
Well there was that roulette dealer from the other thread who was clearly stealing money.
