Blackjack Comp rating

I understand that casinos base comps on your theo which is calculated as HE x hands per hr. x average bet. The Wizard says on his WoO site that a major strip casino executive leaked a table indicating the HE and hands per hr. used for comps and for blackjack they use 70 hands per hour and 0.75% house edge. Do they really use the same HE whether I am playing the S17 or H17 tables? Do they use 70 hands per hour whether I am heads up (maybe 240 hands per hr.) or at a full table (maybe 60 hands per hr.)? This seem way too imprecise.

an older thread discusses this. I ran some numbers and I figure that if I get rated for 70 hands per hour either way, I am better off playing h17 tables that are full rather than s17 tables with only 1 or 2 other players.

Technically it doesnt matter how many players are playing at the same time. As long as u follow basic strategy and have some knowledge of counting cards you should be okay. Try to find tables where the dealer has to stand on a s17, because this will give u better odds overall.

hope that helps! AceTen

I am not sure the formula used to estimate your 'theo', it may very well be what is being discussed here. But in a discussion a couple years ago, with my buddy who works the pit at a strip 'chain' property, I was told that there are different categorizations for different players. I forget the exact 'label' but it was something like 'poor player', 'basic strategy player', 'possible advantage player', (I believe he mentioned 4 different classes, so I am leaving one out) and players playing the same amount of time and betting levels would get very different comp values based on their category.

Quote: AceTen

Technically it doesnt matter how many players are playing at the same time. As long as u follow basic strategy and have some knowledge of counting cards you should be okay. Try to find tables where the dealer has to stand on a s17, because this will give u better odds overall.

That's absolutely true, if I could count cards. There are no casinos where I live. I go to Vegas about twice a year. I don't think I can get good enough at counting to eliminate the house edge. My goal is to enjoy playing a few hours of blackjack and minimize my net expected loss after comps.

Quote: kewlj

I am not sure the formula used to estimate your 'theo', it may very well be what is being discussed here. But in a discussion a couple years ago, with my buddy who works the pit at a strip 'chain' property, I was told that there are different categorizations for different players. I forget the exact 'label' but it was something like 'poor player', 'basic strategy player', 'possible advantage player', (I believe he mentioned 4 different classes, so I am leaving one out) and players playing the same amount of time and betting levels would get very different comp values based on their category.

The casinos do a very good job of keeping these kind a details obscured from gamblers like me. It would be valuable to get a clear picture. For now, I assume that skill level is not a factor and the pit has not noticed that I play near perfect BS. The typical advice is 1) play good rules 2) play full tables. However I find that typically I can't do both at the same time. Here are my assumptions.

Comp = theo x 30%
theo = HEs x HPHs

HEs is the table standard house edge = 0.75%
HPHs is the table standard hands per hour = 70

comp = .0075 x 70 x .3 =.1575, so they comp me .1575 bets per hour no matter what game conditions are played.

My expected loss= EV = HE x HPH
HE is the actual house edge playing BS = -0.28% for S17; = -0.48% for H17
HPH is the actual hands per hour. The following values are attributed to Stanford Wong

1 player: 248 hands per hour
2 players: 158
3 players: 116
4 players: 91
5 players: 76
6 players: 64
7 players: 56

I find that when I play the S17 tables typically have two players at a table at most while the H17 tables are full due to their lower minimums

For the H17 table with 6 players my EV is
-.0048 x 64 = -.3072 bets per hour

For the S17 table my EV is

-.0028 x 116 = -.3248 bets per hour.

If they comp the same for each, I am better off at the H17 table.

Quote: kewlj

I am not sure the formula used to estimate your 'theo', it may very well be what is being discussed here. But in a discussion a couple years ago, with my buddy who works the pit at a strip 'chain' property, I was told that there are different categorizations for different players. I forget the exact 'label' but it was something like 'poor player', 'basic strategy player', 'possible advantage player', (I believe he mentioned 4 different classes, so I am leaving one out) and players playing the same amount of time and betting levels would get very different comp values based on their category.

Casinos used to use a 4 category rating: 1=good (casino likes you) 2=acceptable 3= undesirable (such as counters) and 4= cheaters.

Aloha, Jim!

I am hoping you might comment or evaluate the "play" I plan to try on my first trip to a blackjack table this coming Oct 2016. We are booked at The Cal, so I checked the WOO's survey to find out there are 15ea 2-deck tables w/$5 min, dealer hits on S17, no DAS, no RSA, no SURR, no CSM, no party pit, no 6/5 BJ, no video, and HE 0.60225.

As a novice, I will probably flat $5. I have memorized the WOO's Simple Strategy card, but I'm not yet ready for the full Basic Strategy (but I printed out the cards for S17 and H17 anyway).

I have a small buy-in session of $80/day over 5 days.

Would you kindly show me the calculations to evaluate my "play"?

I read and re-read your post here, but some of the terms/info are above my head based on my current experience at the table (none, that is).

Thanks in advance for your help!

^ What is it that youd like to know?

It's a fact that they do apply different HE for different type of players. Once, a pit accidently blurted out that I was categorized as a "skilled player." Now, I don't know if that puts me at category 2 or 3, but I know I am getting rated at a different HE than the average Joe. I wish the Casino would give the pit the liberty to change hands per hour as I typically like to play one on one. I know I'm getting disadvantaged in terms of comps, but that's my preferred method.

Quote: LostWages

Aloha, Jim!

I am hoping you might comment or evaluate the "play" I plan to try on my first trip to a blackjack table this coming Oct 2016. We are booked at The Cal, so I checked the WOO's survey to find out there are 15ea 2-deck tables w/$5 min, dealer hits on S17, no DAS, no RSA, no SURR, no CSM, no party pit, no 6/5 BJ, no video, and HE 0.60225.

As a novice, I will probably flat $5. I have memorized the WOO's Simple Strategy card, but I'm not yet ready for the full Basic Strategy (but I printed out the cards for S17 and H17 anyway).

I have a small buy-in session of $80/day over 5 days.

Would you kindly show me the calculations to evaluate my "play"?

I read and re-read your post here, but some of the terms/info are above my head based on my current experience at the table (none, that is).

Thanks in advance for your help!

Hello lost wages. You haven't given us enough information =). The casino likes to know how much you bet and how long you play for. You can flat bet $5, but if you play for 1 hour per day or 10 hours per day that's going to be a BIG difference in your comps!

Here's the general formula for comps... Comp = ExpectedLoss*(.20), where Expected Loss = TotalWagered*HouseEdge, where TotalWagered = NumHands*AvgBet.

So in the end we need to know the number of hands you're going to play (can estimate from time played), your average bet (flat $5), and the house edge (which they will put you higher than the min, especially if you don't even yet know basic strategy). So all we need is an estimate of how many hours you plan to play per day!

I was about to make a post similar to this, but for table games in general.

There's a particular property where I feel I get rated significantly higher playing 3CP compared to other games. And I think it's because I only play ante/play but I get rated as if I'm playing pairs+ and six card bonus like every other player.

Quote: Romes

Hello lost wages. You haven't given us enough information =). The casino likes to know how much you bet and how long you play for. You can flat bet $5, but if you play for 1 hour per day or 10 hours per day that's going to be a BIG difference in your comps!

Here's the general formula for comps... Comp = ExpectedLoss*(.20), where Expected Loss = TotalWagered*HouseEdge, where TotalWagered = NumHands*AvgBet.

So in the end we need to know the number of hands you're going to play (can estimate from time played), your average bet (flat $5), and the house edge (which they will put you higher than the min, especially if you don't even yet know basic strategy). So all we need is an estimate of how many hours you plan to play per day!

I still think the simplest generalization for blackjack players is comps will be about 25% of your average bet for every hour you play.

A $5 player will get about $1.25 in comps per hour.

Quote: DRich

I still think the simplest generalization for blackjack players is comps will be about 25% of your average bet for every hour you play.

A $5 player will get about $1.25 in comps per hour.

Well let's take a look at an average example...

Avg Bet = $5
Hands Per Hour = 70
Hours Played = 4 (one session from one day)
House Edge ~ -.5%, but they'll rate you higher than that as on average most people do not know basic strategy. I've seen rating as high as 5%. Avg I'll say is 2%.

EL = TotalWagered*HouseEdge = (NumHands*AvgBet)*HouseEdge = (280*5)*(-.02) = -$28

Comp = |EL| * (.20) = 28*(.20) = $5.60.

So in this scenario, a $5 better will get about $5.60 per hour back in comps, assuming they typically play 4 hour sessions at 70 hands per hour, with a typical average player rating. If you're a known "good" basic strategy player, your HE will be lower... Maybe .5% or maybe 1%.

Quote: DRich

I still think the simplest generalization for blackjack players is comps will be about 25% of your average bet for every hour you play.

A $5 player will get about $1.25 in comps per hour.

I have read, for several years here now, explanations of generalizations of hypothetical computations used by some/many/all casino operations to award comps. None of the explanations, well almost none, have ever even come close to being in the same universe as my experience in terms of comps. Admittedly my exposure has been pretty limited in terms of the number of facilities that I have been able to play at (wife has me on short leash).

However, at the risk of repeating myself, I read the explanations. I understand the terms. I can find little or no, closer to no, correlation between what has been methodically and often intricately explained and my personal experience. Almost none.

Sometimes they love me, some times they love me not.
How many petals are on a sunflower anyway ;-)

Quote: Romes

Well let's take a look at an average example...

Avg Bet = $5
Hands Per Hour = 70
Hours Played = 4 (one session from one day)
House Edge ~ -.5%, but they'll rate you higher than that as on average most people do not know basic strategy. I've seen rating as high as 5%. Avg I'll say is 2%.

EL = TotalWagered*HouseEdge = (NumHands*AvgBet)*HouseEdge = (280*5)*(-.02) = -$28

Comp = |EL| * (.20) = 28*(.20) = $5.60.

So in this scenario, a $5 better will get about $5.60 per hour back in comps, assuming they typically play 4 hour sessions at 70 hands per hour, with a typical average player rating. If you're a known "good" basic strategy player, your HE will be lower... Maybe .5% or maybe 1%.

It looks to me like you need to divide that $5.60 by 4 to get the per hour comp amount since you used 280 hands instead of the 70 per hour.

Quote: DRich

It looks to me like you need to divide that $5.60 by 4 to get the per hour comp amount since you used 280 hands instead of the 70 per hour.

Quite right. I brushed right past that now didn't I. At least I did point out it was $5.60 for a 4 hour session =P... breaking down to about $1.40/hour.

Quote: Romes

Quite right. I brushed right past that now didn't I. At least I did point out it was $5.60 for a 4 hour session =P... breaking down to about $1.40/hour.

Yes, we are very close. I usually use 60 hands per hour as my average. In any case 25% of your average bet works out as a pretty good estimation.

The El Cortez does give about $1.50 an hour in comps for $5 players. Doesn't seem to matter if you are one on one or at a full table.
I used to play their $3 table, spreading $3-10, and get $6-$10 for a four or five hour jaunt. When they went to $5 minimum the comps stayed the same.

Tks, Bill. I'm replying not only to your post, but I'm also acknowledging all the posters just before you who clarified my questions about how BJ comps are calculated - I have a better idea now of what's involved. I'm way at the bottom of the totem pole of low stakes players, so I have no complaints. I will enjoy posting my trip report in late October 2016.

At least I know I'm playing primarily for recreation, secondly to win SOME hands (maybe even breakeven), and then get a small dash of comps in a sandwich or buffet after 5 days of play to sweeten the ending. If I lose consistently, then that will be my signal to learn Basic Strategy before a return trip next year! I might even consider card counting, but Basic Strategy first.

Best of all, after about 4 trips to Vegas over 10 years, this will be my first time to join my wife at the table, so she should be delighted at that. She doesn't play with any strategy, not even WOO's Simple Strategy. Perhaps my real reward will be impressing her and comforting her as a table partner. She has no idea of how many hours I've been practicing on WOO's BJ Game & Trainer!

Cheers to all!