"I Am a Card Counter"

Quote: kewlj

Geez, I didn't even know you had a book. But I have no doubt it is math-heavy and beyond my level of understanding. :(

What all does it cover and where do I find it? Is there a link here somewhere that I am not seeing?

Wizard's book is excellent, but it is aimed at the skilled beginner/intermediate gambler. You are well beyond its target audience.

That said, it's an excellent overview of the various games.

https://wizardofodds.com/site/about/gambling-102/

Quote: beachbumbabs

AoC,

I would not, and never have, considered or presented myself as knowledgable enough on gaming to make a judgement about the merits of the advice within any gambling book. Just more than a little irony in jumping Frank as an author with misspellings in the attacking post.

Something tells me you have a much better understanding of the viability and real world practicality of Franks books than you're letting on. Most likely for the sake of being nice or maybe just trying not to be judgmental.

Ok, changing topics, but still on the subject of Frank's book, which I haven't yet purchased, but I plan on it when I have a little time (and no I don't want a free copy). I do like the title of said book, "I am a card counter". I myself am a card counter although I do a few supplemental things in the area of bonus chasing, I will always consider myself a 'grinder-type' card counter. Now-a-days, the term card counter has a negative vibe to it. As if you are a fool for not pursuing higher advantage plays and methods. The "great one" coined the phrase, 'salamander' referring to lowly card counters at the bottom of the AP chain.

I myself wear that 'card counter' label proudly. Card counting is an honest (despite what PGDan will tell ya) form of play, using only your brain and some of us like, take pride even in beating the casinos using this elementary yet fair form of advantage play. In my opinion some of these so called more advanced AP methods border on or even cross the line into cheating. If not cheating, at least dishonorable (IMO). I mean, didn't someone of godlike status, suggest using a wheel chair as a prop, so you are positioned lower to get a better angle on holecarding? That is just sleazy. I'll be a salamander over just down right sleazy any day.

Since "I am a card counter" is now taken, if the day ever comes......I will go with "I am a salamander....hear me roar". :-)

Quote: kewlj

Ok, changing topics, but still on the subject of Frank's book, which I haven't yet purchased, but I plan on it when I have a little time (and no I don't want a free copy). I do like the title of said book, "I am a card counter". I myself am a card counter although I do a few supplemental things in the area of bonus chasing, I will always consider myself a 'grinder-type' card counter. Now-a-days, the term card counter has a negative vibe to it. As if you are a fool for not pursuing higher advantage plays and methods. The "great one" coined the phrase, 'salamander' referring to lowly card counters at the bottom of the AP chain.

I myself wear that 'card counter' label proudly. Card counting is an honest (despite what PGDan will tell ya) form of play, using only your brain and some of us like, take pride even in beating the casinos using this elementary yet fair form of advantage play. In my opinion some of these so called more advanced AP methods border on or even cross the line into cheating. If not cheating, at least dishonorable (IMO). I mean, didn't someone of godlike status, suggest using a wheel chair as a prop, so you are positioned lower to get a better angle on holecarding? That is just sleazy. I'll be a salamander over just down right sleazy any day.

Since "I am a card counter" is now taken, if the day ever comes......I will go with "I am a salamander....hear me roar". :-)

That's an awesome idea!

Quote: kewlj

Ok, changing topics, but still on the subject of Frank's book, which I haven't yet purchased, but I plan on it when I have a little time (and no I don't want a free copy). I do like the title of said book, "I am a card counter". I myself am a card counter although I do a few supplemental things in the area of bonus chasing, I will always consider myself a 'grinder-type' card counter. Now-a-days, the term card counter has a negative vibe to it. As if you are a fool for not pursuing higher advantage plays and methods. The "great one" coined the phrase, 'salamander' referring to lowly card counters at the bottom of the AP chain.

I myself wear that 'card counter' label proudly. Card counting is an honest (despite what PGDan will tell ya) form of play, using only your brain and some of us like, take pride even in beating the casinos using this elementary yet fair form of advantage play. In my opinion some of these so called more advanced AP methods border on or even cross the line into cheating. If not cheating, at least dishonorable (IMO). I mean, didn't someone of godlike status, suggest using a wheel chair as a prop, so you are positioned lower to get a better angle on holecarding? That is just sleazy. I'll be a salamander over just down right sleazy any day.

If I may make a recommendation:

You need to let it go and just play your game.

One thing that I've noticed (from reading everything that I can get my hands on) is that a lot of the more experienced APs end up coming across as really bitter all the time. There is no way that somebody that bitter could actually be happy. You seem like a really nice guy, and I'd hate to see that happen to you.

I'd say, read what others have to say and learn what you can, but ignore their value judgements. If you are happy, that's all that matters as far as that is concerned. I'm sure that you are well aware that there are other avenues that you could have pursued (or could still pursue) that would make you more money. If that's the most important thing to you, it's what you would have done (or will do). If not, and you're happy with the way that things worked out, then why worry about what others think?

Quote: Scan

AoC. You were not there to see what I saw. You know nothing about my background yet you can state that I am "talking out (my) ass"

Amazing

Yes, amazing. Your level of ignorance amazes us all. Despite your clearest intentions, you stand as the shining example of Frank's target demographic. Per your your rules, I will use a small sample size as a perfect example and an irrefutable conclusion. Those duped into adhering to the belief that random is "not random" as you stated. Your eyewitness account tears down Frank's defense to SW, as we all know it is the lack of understanding that sells the book. Frank tells it like people would rather be ritualistic, an OCD trait which correlates to AP more than to ploppy behavior--than sit out randomly. You tell it like it is perceived--as a system that is tangibly advantageous over randomness.
I am happy to see ploppies lose at tables. I would be perfectly fine if Frank started writing books to purposely cause them to lose everything, and made a fortune doing it. Probably would cause less heat from casinos for the rest of us. My main issue is he continues to defend his theories to AP scrutiny, when such peer review should be avoided.

Yes, Axiom, I am aware of other avenues. My first year after relocating to Vegas, 2010, I got into some hole-carding for several months. I had a couple dealers that I was literally stalking. I literally knew their schedules. After a couple months, I decided, that I just didn't care for winning that way. I am not going to say that hole-carding in itself is cheating. It is the casino's responsibility to protect their games, but that method just wasn't for me.

There are still times I see the dealers hole-card. That is part of the game. But going out of your way and preying on weak dealers, a I said, that just falls outside my comfort level. I don't have a problem with anyone who pursues that method, but just not my thing.

One thing I will say about some of the experienced, (older) AP's that I have noticed. Many are frustrated with Today's blackjack conditions. 6 and 8 deck shoe games, with mediocre penetration. Dealer hit soft 17. These guys had access to much better games back in the day. Better games where they could achieve a decent win rate. And when the conditions deteriorated and it became more of a grind, they got frustrated and held a grudge, not surprisingly. Where as many of us, who took up counting in the last decade or at least this century, have never experience anything but these mediocre games. It what we started with and what we know and we tailor our attack as best we can to these conditions.

Whenever I can, I give credit to the person who first came out with an idea. You'll read all of that in my various books. There might be some ideas that I have not referenced because I have no idea where the idea came from. But those would be minor. For example, there are many different versions of where the Martingale System came from. When I first wrote about this concept I cited various speculations as to where it originated.

I have referenced all the writers whose ideas I have used including the Wizard, Stanford Wong, Arnold Snyder, Laurance Scott and many, many others (I was going to make a list but many of those names can be found in "I Am a Card Counter.") I reference the Captain all the time.

Now there are things that some of the posters here might not know. Real publishing houses and real magazines often have what are called "fact checkers." So whatever you write had better be able to get past these folks.

Someone posted that I married my publisher. Yes, my wife had a book company called Paone Press and she published the second and third of my books --- that was in the early 1990s. My publishers have been Bonus Books of Chicago, Taylor Trade Publishing, Lyle Stuart Publishing, Research Services Unlimited (Henry Tamburin’s company) and now Triumph Books a division of Random House. These are all real publishing companies.

Next, many of you might not know this either: Gambling ideas cannot be copyrighted. So if the Wizard came up with a brilliant idea for playing this or that game then any of you could use that idea without giving him credit. You just couldn't use his "expression" of that idea.

Dan Pronovost who created Speed Count suddenly discovered someone had ripped his counting system off and the guy published it as if it were his own on the web. This came years after I started teaching the method in classes. Dan was upset about this even though he couldn’t do anything about it. So he gave me permission to write books highlighting Speed Count. I always give him credit for what he accomplished.

If I made mistakes in my writing I have no problem saying so. The Wizard wrote about errors I made in one book (now out of print) and I had no problem with that and I had no problem with then recommending what the Wizard wrote over what I wrote. (Don’t bother attacking dice control here. I realize many of you think it is not possible.) I’ve even stated that there are some ideas I bought into when I first started writing about casino games that I now know were wrong. I think I mentioned those in some other posts.

As for those of you who state you are a part of the “A.P. Community” you should realize there is no single “A.P. Community.” There’s just the “community” of players and writers you know or agree with or on whose message boards you write. In my book “I Am a Card Counter” I write about the blackjack teams I belonged to and the blackjack teams I financed. All of these players were part of an “A.P. Community” but probably not the one(s) you are referencing. So using the idea that you are a part of some “A.P. Community” is merely an attempt to buttress your opinions by resorting to “authority.”

I do enjoy writing on this and two other web sites as a break from writing my articles and books. It’s fun. Unfortunately, I now have to get back to work; my coffee break is over.

Frank, you have been credited with coining the term ploppy. Is there a story behind that?

Yes. In a brilliant English sitcom called "Blackadder" there were two characters who appeared in one episode, Mr and Mrs Ploppy. I took the name from them and the characteristics of their identities. It all just fit.

Quote: FrankScoblete

I am not quite sure why some people think I offer poor advice. Yes, you might disagree with dice control but none of my advice, even within the parameters of dice control, recommends making bad bets. Yes, I do write about all the games, most of which can't be beaten, but I do explain how players should play without taking a hammering even at those games.

My new blackjack book should give a good description of what I experienced in my 25 years of play. I'd think that 25 years is a good gauge of ability. Generally I averaged 130 days a year at the casinos.

Anyway, any of you responding on this thread who would like me to send you a free copy of the book just send a message to me with your address and I will send you the book. If any of you (and I think there may be many of you) who have played over a significant period of time will find that my book about me could also be my book about you.

That's a generous offer. I'd like to read the book.

Frank,

Genuinely enjoying the book. You bring up a situation where you felt ethically challenged at the Golden Gate, and what you did, though you say you puzzle over it to this day. It's your story to tell, but IMO you did the only thing available to you as an experienced player. It's GOT to be up to the casino to protect their game, not to you as a player, unless it involves you. There's no other way to look at it.

I'm going to start a thread about something sort of similar that happened the other night and see what gets said about it.

I am so glad you are enjoying the book beachbumbabs. Wait til you get to the bannings. I think you'll find those quite interesting.

Quote: Buzzard

Frank’s books and tapes have sold over a million copies.

http://booksonroulette.com/spin-roulette-gold.htm

Quote: the link

Price: $87.73

wow, Scoblete is going for it!

Quote: beachbumbabs

Dice,

I would suggest the use of a grammar checker before you throw stones on somebody who's published 30 books.

I don't misspell I invent new words.

If these books are considered good than I start to loose faith in this country.

I like Frank Sinatra, though new albums sold in millions. What a garbage!

I prefer fine dining to McDonald's, but I know they make millions,masses elected Obama, Wallmart sells in billions. For some reason I pay $150 my New Balance.

I've read one of Frank's books on craps and found it to be well written. It didn't contain a lot of information that I didn't already know. I did however enjoy the writing style of the book and I would like to read the new card counting book.

Frank, if you are still sending out copies I'd like a book. I think it would be a good interesting read.

Mikey75, send me your address.

A couple of observations:

1. Wow, what a thread.

2. I don't play blackjack. I tried it a couple of times and got slaughtered.

3. One reason I don't like blackjack is that you have to be able to count to 21. I like craps because I only have to count to 12.

4. I got into TV because I only had to be able to comprehend one phrase with three numbers: "You're live in 3, 2, 1."

5. Now, I've read all kinds of gambling books and primers and novels and strategy guides and websites. I love reading them. Some I find useful. Some I don't. Some teach me something, and some don't. But you can't prejudge a book until you read it. And even if you disagree with the premise of the book or the information or strategy it presents -- once you read it and know what you disagree with, you have learned something. Yes, it's valuable to learn what you can't agree with or follow.

Good luck with the book, Frank. I've read several of them and glad that I did -- even the books with the content that I don't agree with because there was value in knowing what was written.

Hey, Alan, you're in the book!

Quote: beachbumbabs

Hey, Alan, you're in the book!

Frank told me but I haven't seen it.

Pretty much just a shout-out and a quote about gambling.

I would like to point out that I accepted Franks offer and within two days received my copy.

irregardless of how you feel about his writing, his offer was very gracious and unlike many people with free goodies, it came with no strings attached.

I will be reading his book and giving a review here and on Amazon.

Quote: darkoz

I would like to point out that I accepted Franks offer and within two days received my copy.

irregardless of how you feel about his writing, his offer was very gracious and unlike many people with free goodies, it came with no strings attached.

I will be reading his book and giving a review here and on Amazon.

Authors and publishing houses send out free books all the time, hoping for positive reviews or buzz. It's not really exceptional or noteworthy.

Quote: AlanMendelson

A couple of observations:


5. Now, I've read all kinds of gambling books and primers and novels and strategy guides and websites. I love reading them. Some I find useful. Some I don't. Some teach me something, and some don't. But you can't prejudge a book until you read it. And even if you disagree with the premise of the book or the information or strategy it presents -- once you read it and know what you disagree with, you have learned something. Yes, it's valuable to learn what you can't agree with or follow.

You can't prejudge a book until you've read it? So not only do books deserve equal rights to humans, we should all give the Communist Manifesto a chance.

"You can't prejudge a book until you've read it? So not only do books deserve equal rights to humans, we should all give the Communist Manifesto a chance."

Stop being a sonuvabish

Quote: darkoz

"You can't prejudge a book until you've read it? So not only do books deserve equal rights to humans, we should all give the Communist Manifesto a chance."

Stop being a sonuvabish

LOL

Quote: FrankScoblete

I think this will be fun for readers: I name the person who is the greatest blackjack player ever and I explain why. I think some of you will know the guy. It will be fun to see the comments about him.

Ken Uston? Tommy Hyland? Al Francesco? Dr. Thorp? James Grosjean? Speck Parsons? Julian Braun?

Ra-Ra-Ra. Lyrics by Lady Gaga. My cat could do better.

Can someone recommend few books on probability. No mass garbage. Only few thousand copies sold. Should be written by person who graduated from university, has many years of experience by working in a field of his expertise. Book should recommended by same, PhD's etc.

But you can't prejudge a book until you read it. And even if you disagree with the premise of the book or the information or strategy it presents -- once you read it and know what you disagree with, you have learned something. Yes, it's valuable to learn what you can't agree with or follow. I've read 3 books by the author. Last one I could not finish, I thought I will die from laughter, and it was not because it was funny, but because how stupid it was. If that info is not enough to form an opinion, than I might check into a nut house.

Quote: sodawater

Authors and publishing houses send out free books all the time, hoping for positive reviews or buzz. It's not really exceptional or noteworthy.

So someone thanks the author for a book and that needs to be criticized, too?

This thread has gone from some mild to harsh criticism of the author and his books (which I did criticize earlier and I stand by what I said) to almost absurd--if someone says something nice, someone else has to say something mean-spirited. Why the need to be like that about the whole thing?

One member has 16 or 17 comments (about 6%) of their total comments over about 8-9 months of membership on this one subject...many just one line negative comments. Why not just put together a well-reasoned post or two about why you don't think Frank is a good writer and move on?

I haven't gotten the book Frank sent yet; I have to go down to the Post Office to check the PO box and I am sure it will be there. Whether it cost him something or nothing, I thank him in advance for sending it--it did cost a bit of his time. Given the critical nature of this thread, I can see the "freebie" creating some buzz in the "any publicity is good publicity vein" but it isn't like Frank's gesture will create a ton of positive reviews amongst this particular group.

Ron C., those who just attack just attack. Sarcastic comments only work on those who already agree with the person being sarcastic. You rarely win over someone to your side of a discussion / debate by being sarcastic.

But here is information you were speculating about. I receive 30 free copies of my book. Those I sign and send out to relatives and friends. The books I am sending to those on this site come from Amazon.com.

I really don't need publicity for my books nor do I need to draft readers. I enjoy coming to this site to read most of the comments (about gambling and not about gambling) by the posters. I have two other sites I go to and I have offered their posters free copies of "I Am a Card Counter" and of "Confessions of a Wayward Catholic."

I started coming to these web sites first to write an article about gambling web sites and I found I enjoyed most of the posters on them. When I take a break from writing my books and articles (the daily grind), instead of wandering around my property, I now come to these sites to see what's taking place. So my offering of a book is a "thank you," nothing more.

I also enjoy non-gambling posts. I figure people who share my experience with casinos probably have interesting viewpoints about non-gambling matters. Since I retired from teaching classes I am writing more non-gambling material. I enjoy sharing that too.

So to the posters on this site, a thank you from me to you.

Quote: FrankScoblete

Ron C., those who just attack just attack. Sarcastic comments only work on those who already agree with the person being sarcastic. You rarely win over someone to your side of a discussion / debate by being sarcastic.

But here is information you were speculating about. I receive 30 free copies of my book. Those I sign and send out to relatives and friends. The books I am sending to those on this site come from Amazon.com.

I really don't need publicity for my books nor do I need to draft readers. I enjoy coming to this site to read most of the comments (about gambling and not about gambling) by the posters. I have two other sites I go to and I have offered their posters free copies of "I Am a Card Counter" and of "Confessions of a Wayward Catholic."

I started coming to these web sites first to write an article about gambling web sites and I found I enjoyed most of the posters on them. When I take a break from writing my books and articles (the daily grind), instead of wandering around my property, I now come to these sites to see what's taking place. So my offering of a book is a "thank you," nothing more.

I also enjoy non-gambling posts. I figure people who share my experience with casinos probably have interesting viewpoints about non-gambling matters. Since I retired from teaching classes I am writing more non-gambling material. I enjoy sharing that too.

So to the posters on this site, a thank you from me to you.

No, Frank, thank you. I enjoyed the book. You were right, the bannings chapter at the end was pretty interesting. I think your decades of experience made for a lot of good stories.

Quote: RonC

So someone thanks the author for a book and that needs to be criticized, too?

So saying something "isn't noteworthy or exceptional" is now "criticism" and "mean spirited"? Why? Does everything have to be noteworthy and exceptional? We cannot have things that are common, everyday occurrences?

I reject this idea that everyone must be enthusiastic about everything. Some things are mediocre and unremarkable. Some are worse than mediocre and into the realm of bad. I would categorize Mr. Scoblete's promotional book offer as the former and Mr. Scoblete's writing as the latter.

Quote: RonC

So someone thanks the author for a book and that needs to be criticized, too?

This thread has gone from some mild to harsh criticism of the author and his books (which I did criticize earlier and I stand by what I said) to almost absurd--if someone says something nice, someone else has to say something mean-spirited. Why the need to be like that about the whole thing?

One member has 16 or 17 comments (about 6%) of their total comments over about 8-9 months of membership on this one subject...many just one line negative comments. Why not just put together a well-reasoned post or two about why you don't think Frank is a good writer and move on?

I haven't gotten the book Frank sent yet; I have to go down to the Post Office to check the PO box and I am sure it will be there. Whether it cost him something or nothing, I thank him in advance for sending it--it did cost a bit of his time. Given the critical nature of this thread, I can see the "freebie" creating some buzz in the "any publicity is good publicity vein" but it isn't like Frank's gesture will create a ton of positive reviews amongst this particular group.

I take it you mean Dicenor. Who disagrees with me that you can't prejudge a book. But who bought one of Frank's books, and nearly died of laughter, not because it was funny, but because it was stupid. Which I found hilarious, especially in the context of poor grammar. And then I guess he proceeded to buy two more books. That was something worth saying, because it brought laughter to the world.
Me laugh it stupid books;?

Thank you frank for the book offer. I would do the same thing if I was a book author dealing with gambling topics. This is the certainly the best website to talk about your book since this site is one of the top gambling related forums, no place is more appropriate. I don't care if you're self promoting or just being nice. The fact is, you're taking the effort and going our of your way to get the book to guys who really want it, I know some people really appreciate that. I declined only because don't think I would invest the time reading it or any gambling book. Come out with an audio book, and then im in. Dose the book come in E-format?

I disagree with the DI/DC, but that has nothing to do with you being a good writer or not. I think people are unfairly giving you a hard time about your motivations,Who cares? You wrote a book and you want people to read it.

People have mentioned garbling experts here. This leads me to wonder what makes someone a gambling expert? I ask that question to everyone. Do you consider yourself a gambling expert? If so why?

Hi Axelwolf: Kindle will have the book on Amazon on May 1st.

Quote: Dicenor33

Can someone recommend few books on probability. No mass garbage. Only few thousand copies sold. Should be written by person who graduated from university, has many years of experience by working in a field of his expertise. Book should recommended by same, PhD's etc.

Taking Chances by John Haigh - http://www.amazon.com/Taking-Chances-Probability-John-Haigh/dp/0198526636

Reader in Mathematics at Sussex University (UK). Which I suspect means he has a PhD. He's also published and written some other books on probability in sport and other every day situations. He's also written a couple of under-grad text books.

Read it more than once, and referred back to it several times when trying to model some (gambling and other game) systems.

I received my copy of the book yesterday. Of course, now I have to have my friend mail it to me (you don't think I gave my real name and address do you?).
I'm looking forward to reading it!

Quote: AxelWolf

People have mentioned garbling experts here. This leads me to wonder what makes someone a gambling expert? I ask that question to everyone. Do you consider yourself a gambling expert? If so why?

I do not consider myself a gambler. But I am probably the best blackjack player anyone I have ever met, has ever met. You could argue that you are better, and that Will Smith's Six Degrees of Separation movie received critical acclaim for it's societal relevance as well as how Disney's song "It's a Small World" deserves radio air time, but let's not.

I do not know who else compared Frank to experts, but I did. I did not compare him to myself. Those people are experts because they provide useful data and no spin. There's no such thing as a gambling expert; you can't be an expert at taking random chances at fixed odds. It's no secret that not playing is the only smart thing to do: In any gambling transaction, there is a fool and a thief. His work seems duplicitous; it borrows from common sense, and spins it into something unconventional and less sensible.

I agree, his motives are irrelevant. He should be allowed to get people pumped about his book without being attacked--in the betting systems section.

Quote: Sonuvabish

I do not know who else compared Frank to experts, but I did. I did not compare him to myself. Those people are experts because they provide useful data and no spin. There's no such thing as a gambling expert; you can't be an expert at taking random chances at fixed odds. It's no secret that not playing is the only smart thing to do: In any gambling transaction, there is a fool and a thief. ....

Odd, one could logically take random chances at fixed odds, with an advantage and the smart thing to do would be to play. One could be an expert at finding those advantages. And yet one is still gambling.

Quote: thecesspit

Odd, one could logically take random chances at fixed odds, with an advantage and the smart thing to do would be to play. One could be an expert at finding those advantages. And yet one is still gambling.

What he said

Quote: thecesspit

Odd, one could logically take random chances at fixed odds, with an advantage and the smart thing to do would be to play. One could be an expert at finding those advantages. And yet one is still gambling.

Your post confused me.

Yes, it would be smart to play. Who would offer them? How is locating them gambling? If you have a fixed positive expectation, you are only gambling if you are essentially out of control. So what does being a gambling expert mean? Being a travel agent who hosts gambler's anonymous meetings? OK, I guess there are such things as gambling experts, I just was thinking of it in terms of mathematics.

Maybe you think advantage play is gambling. Can't really argue against a differing opinion. But I don't think it conforms.

Quote: FrankScoblete

Hi Axelwolf: Kindle will have the book on Amazon on May 1st.

Now if you could only send me a copy of that. Someone suggest a good audio reader and I will love to listen to it while im doing other things. Do i have your permission to use a 3rd party in order to retrieve the book free?

Quote: Sonuvabish

Your post confused me.

Yes, it would be smart to play. Who would offer them? How is locating them gambling? If you have a fixed positive expectation, you are only gambling if you are essentially out of control. So what does being a gambling expert mean? Being a travel agent who hosts gambler's anonymous meetings? OK, I guess there are such things as gambling experts, I just was thinking of it in terms of mathematics.

Maybe you think advantage play is gambling. Can't really argue against a differing opinion. But I don't think it conforms.

I do think advantage play can be gambling. I think the casino gambles when it makes bets with players, as does the bookmaker at the track. Gambling is not only negative expectation plays. Gambling with an edge, anyone?

Moreover, the expertise can be at finding the edges, doing the math and working out advantage plays. There's many folks on here who do that sort of action. Mickey Crimm springs to mind.

Quote: thecesspit

I do think advantage play can be gambling. I think the casino gambles when it makes bets with players, as does the bookmaker at the track. Gambling is not only negative expectation plays. Gambling with an edge, anyone?

Moreover, the expertise can be at finding the edges, doing the math and working out advantage plays. There's many folks on here who do that sort of action. Mickey Crimm springs to mind.

I have a hard time swallowing that the casino is gambling.

Quote: Sonuvabish

I have a hard time swallowing that the casino is gambling.

They just gamble enough that they are unlikely to lose (due to their edge). But they are still gambling. So are you.