New Counter

Hey guys. I am new to card counting, and was jsut hoping for advice on a couple of things.

1. What have you guys found helps you be able to hold the count and mingle around and make sure you are making the right calls without mistakes - What helped you when you were brand new?

2. What are some good ways to go about learning some indices? Fab 4 and Illustrious 18.

I look forward to reading more around the board.

CaptainM

I would say, don't try to learn too much at once. If you're not applying what you have already learned perfectly, learning more is not going to help. Be able to do each step mistake-free before you move on to the next step.

First be able to play basic strategy. Go to a casino and play it for a while (min bets).
Then be able to keep the running count. Play for a while, keeping the count. Maybe vary your bets slightly.
Then do true count conversions, if required by your count. Vary your bets more.
Then play a few simple, high-value indexes (insurance, 16vT).
As you are comfortable, add more, 1 or 2 at a time.

This is all a case of diminishing returns. As you move down the list and add more stuff, each one that you add is worth less and less (add them in order of value!) Also remember that, in shoe games, most of your value comes from betting big when you have an edge (rather than by playing differently due to deck composition). If you can spread more and get away with it (and you have the bankroll for it) you should be spreading more.

Quote: CaptainM

Hey guys. I am new to card counting, and was jsut hoping for advice on a couple of things.

1. What have you guys found helps you be able to hold the count and mingle around and make sure you are making the right calls without mistakes - What helped you when you were brand new?

2. What are some good ways to go about learning some indices? Fab 4 and Illustrious 18.

I look forward to reading more around the board.

CaptainM

1. Practice makes perfect. When I first started literally just adding 50 cent pieces to my bets, I was allowed to play a very long time. So long, they all eventually knew my agenda. So some good-spirited bosses had fun trying to distract me, rather than boot me. Not to mention, players force you into conversations. You just learn to keep it.

2) Look them up? Not really a question I would have asked. Not hard to remember an index number. Make sure you are ready to learn them, then move down the list in order of importance starting with insurance. Learn four at a time, or whatever you can handle, and do not move on until you know them perfectly. If you have a game with surrender, you should learn all of them soon. Third, fourth, and sixth most important index, I believe, are in the fab 4.

Good advice in both of the replies you have received thus far.

Basic strategy is an absolute requirement. It is the foundation.
I cannot stress enough the importance of knowing basic strategy to the point that you "have it down cold". You should be able to look at any hand combination and automatically know what to do with it.

Given a modicum of repetition (practice), obtaining the count becomes straightforward; however, as you have mentioned, holding the count under distracting conditions can initially appear daunting.
Before the era of more advanced practice tools (i.e., software such as Casino Verite, etc.), I would actually deal hands from a shoe onto a layout placed on a table at home. Dealing an actual game (minus placement of bets) forced me to not only keep the count, but also perform the dealer's job of correctly totaling the hands. This allowed me to perform the initial step of simulating "several things going on at once."
Initially, no cut card was used, and the shoe was dealt down to the last card to verify that the count was accurately held. A stopwatch was used, and session times were recorded in order to monitor progress.
The next step was to intentionally remove some cards of known value and repeat the process. If I knew that two 10-valued cards had been removed, my final running count after dealing the shoe should be +2 (with the count system being used); anything else meant that I was in error.
After several sessions of this, I had friends, relatives, or anyone else willing to come over and participate. Some wanted to function as players only; some wanted to deal. Anytime I acted as dealer, I would have one of the "players" place additional "bets" for me. (By that time, I had built a dedicated table with a rack and purchased cheques.) I would tell them how much to bet for me before dealing the hand, and I would also instruct them concerning play of "my" hand.
Having at least one other individual involved really stepped things up. It provided the chit-chat and other banter needed to further simulate actual casino conditions, and eventually I would even encourage intentional distractions.

I once had a conversation with an obviously very experienced dice dealer. He was extremely proficient with handling of the cheques, nearly to the point of being considered a magician by the unitiated. Asking him how he obtained such skills, he replied that such was his livelihood, and he made it a point to carry a stack of cheques everywhere he went. Waiting for his meal at restaurants. Shuffling cheques in one hand while driving with the other. Practicing while watching TV, etc.
Following this example, I made it a point to carry a deck of cards with me everywhere I went (excluding the casino, of course!). People would sometimes look at me funny while I was counting down a deck while waiting for my order at the late night diner, and more than once I was approached by individuals thinking that I was some shady "card shark" trying to get a backroom poker game started.
Do enough of this and it doesn't take long to become proficient enough to count a deck down in 20 seconds.

For your indices, there are several methods of practice.
Again, this was before the time of phone apps, practice software, etc., but something that helped me was to make little flashcards similar to what they used to teach multiplication tables, etc. to elementary school students. Sorta seemed childish at first, but it worked. (Once I obtained more of the advanced literature available, I found out that it wasn't so childish after all.)
These flashcards were kept with my "traveling" deck of cards.

Don't get overwhelmed by it. Take small incremental steps. Practice, practice, practice. If you're not doing it in your sleep, you're not "there" yet. Then after you "get there", practice some more. I still review basic strategy.

I'm very good and very fast at counting down a deck but I have no idea what my time is nor do I care. I haven't done it in decades. The 20 seconds is misleading because of the different ways to do it and the count used. Will you get the same results with a level two count or higher that you would with a level one count? Do you fan the cards, count them in pairs, count them one at a time or do it some other way?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't practice at home but a live table in a casino is best. If you find a dealer who is too fast, remember that it is the player who sets the pace. There's no need to try to attain a certain time as long as you can keep up at the table.

Quote: 1BB

I'm very good and very fast at counting down a deck but I have no idea what my time is nor do I care. I haven't done it in decades. The 20 seconds is misleading because of the different ways to do it and the count used. Will you get the same results with a level two count or higher that you would with a level one count? Do you fan the cards, count them in pairs, count them one at a time or do it some other way?

The 20 seconds was mentioned to exemplify that which is readily attainable, not an absolute.
Should one wish to set it as a personal standard, it is likely possible with all but the more advanced counting strategies requiring side counts.
(I agree with you that the statement could appear misleading; perhaps I should have stated "Do this enough and you'll be amazed at how quickly you progress.")
For myself, I started out pulling one card at a time as quickly as possible, then progressing to combinations. Working with 2-card and 3-card combinations is what really develops rapid counting abilities (just my opinion).

Quote: 1BB

I'm not saying that you shouldn't practice at home but a live table in a casino is best. If you find a dealer who is too fast, remember that it is the player who sets the pace. There's no need to try to attain a certain time as long as you can keep up at the table.

I'll not get into the differing philosophies concerning live play vs. personal standards of preparation. Certainly, nothing substitutes for the experience gained with real conditions.
With that said, I would never want to set the pace of the game. I feel if that were the case, a better option would be a slower dealer. Slower dealers are not best for the overall picture, but I can see where it is an opportunity to "practice" live play. Hopefully the OP can find such conditions, as casinos vary with employment of accomplished skill levels.
Regardless, even for those advocating live conditions as the "ultimate teacher", my point is not to state which is better, but rather that the aspiring individual should use all opportunity available to become proficient that much sooner.

I've never understood these recommendations that you should be able to count down a deck in a certain amount of time. Isn't that limited by how quickly you can deal the cards?

I have no idea how fast I can count down a deck, nor do I care. I can count cards fast enough that I have finished counting before the dealer collects the cards. Doing it faster will not help me.

Quote: CaptainM

Hey guys. I am new to card counting, and was jsut hoping for advice on a couple of things.

1. What have you guys found helps you be able to hold the count and mingle around and make sure you are making the right calls without mistakes - What helped you when you were brand new?

2. What are some good ways to go about learning some indices? Fab 4 and Illustrious 18.

I look forward to reading more around the board.

CaptainM

I made flash cards for all the indices, though that's probably the old fashioned way it works.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I've never understood these recommendations that you should be able to count down a deck in a certain amount of time. Isn't that limited by how quickly you can deal the cards?

I have no idea how fast I can count down a deck, nor do I care. I can count cards fast enough that I have finished counting before the dealer collects the cards. Doing it faster will not help me.

I also do not know nor do I care.

However, there is a point to it. You would eventually count reflexively, like we all use basic strategy. I don't count reflexively. I think some people pretend they do, but don't. Uston supposedly did. In practice it has less to do with the speed, and more to do with cover. That's why I don't really find it important, especially for a noob.

Quote: Sonuvabish

In practice it has less to do with the speed, and more to do with cover.

Is not the second highly dependent upon the first?

I couldn't agree more with 1BB and Axiom. I have been saying on other blackjack sites for several years that counting down a deck is the most overrated thing I have come across. Counting down a deck in no way simulates game conditions. Furthermore, it is just lame. Under 20 seconds? who cares? Speed isn't all that important. In a real blackjack game, it is the player (s) who control the speed of the game not the dealer! Sometimes, just for fun, I will purposely slow down a fast dealer. It can really throw them off THEIR game. lol

Practice: I play blackjack almost every day. But I still practice every day as well. Maybe as short as 15 minutes, but I still practice. My preferred method of practice is to just deal hands to myself or my partners. THAT simulates an actual game. I have a blackjack table in my home (from Sahara), but even before that I would deal on the kitchen or dining room table. By playing out multiple spots, just as you would in a casino setting, you can also work on index plays. If there is one you are not sure about you can stop and check. Make sure you got it right. My partners, both like to use computer simulated games for practice, but I prefer the actual dealing at a table.

Flashcards: It may be something from last decade, but I think flashcards are really the best way to learn index plays. You make yourself a good set of flashcards and then just flip through them a few times a week. Can be as informal as a commercial break while watching TV.

Quote: rob45

Is not the second highly dependent upon the first?

Ultimately, I don't think so. It becomes like a reflex. You look at the table you know the count. Speed is part of the process of developing that skill, so you could say yes it is dependent. Counting down a deck is not useful in and of itself, this practice needs to relate back to the game--I have no doubt people practice this, master it, then never do it again because they passed their training, and it served no function. In practical terms, you don't need to count a deck in 20 seconds to keep up with even the fastest dealers, and speed has nothing to do with the end result of essentially absorbing the information on the table.
But this is just my opinion. I can only offer you one fact. Your practice of counting down decks will not impede your skills. Continual practice may have a beneficial impact.

Quote: Sonuvabish

In practical terms, you don't need to count a deck in 20 seconds to keep up with even the fastest dealers, and speed has nothing to do with the end result of essentially absorbing the information on the table.

FWIW, I agree, sort of. Fairly new to counting, the difficulty for me is the other distractions that cause me to lose the count. I play with a stack of chips in front of me in order to try and use them as flags as to the count, but if the count gets high I focus more on the play of the hand. I know the basic strategy play, but there's nothing like a larger amount of money, or multiple splits * larger amount to distract you from the count. All of a sudden you have either gained or lost a large bet, and... oh shit... what was the count, or if not what it was, what is it now?

I can't play heads-up with a dealer yet, because I need time to register the count, so maybe speed does matter. Especially if the dealer is proficient, where they finish the play for you. They know I'm not going to hit that 20, or that 18 against their 6, so, heads up, before I know it that hand is over and the dealer is impatiently waiting for my next bet. I try to find tables with other players, so as get some extra time to keep the count. But as I get more practice I find that some situations are to slow. It's tough to find the Goldilocks table where the speed is just right.

Regardless, I don't practice with a deck of cards at home anymore. Seeing the count across the table is easy. It's what to od with this information that is the issue.

Quote: rhodyBob

FWIW, I agree, sort of. Fairly new to counting, the difficulty for me is the other distractions that cause me to lose the count. I play with a stack of chips in front of me in order to try and use them as flags as to the count, but if the count gets high I focus more on the play of the hand. I know the basic strategy play, but there's nothing like a larger amount of money, or multiple splits * larger amount to distract you from the count. All of a sudden you have either gained or lost a large bet, and... oh shit... what was the count, or if not what it was, what is it now?

I can't play heads-up with a dealer yet, because I need time to register the count, so maybe speed does matter. Especially if the dealer is proficient, where they finish the play for you. They know I'm not going to hit that 20, or that 18 against their 6, so, heads up, before I know it that hand is over and the dealer is impatiently waiting for my next bet. I try to find tables with other players, so as get some extra time to keep the count. But as I get more practice I find that some situations are to slow. It's tough to find the Goldilocks table where the speed is just right.

Regardless, I don't practice with a deck of cards at home anymore. Seeing the count across the table is easy. It's what to od with this information that is the issue.

Just tell the dealer to wait for your hand signals. If they don't, complain to the pit.

Quote: rhodyBob

FWIW, I agree, sort of. Fairly new to counting, the difficulty for me is the other distractions that cause me to lose the count. I play with a stack of chips in front of me in order to try and use them as flags as to the count, but if the count gets high I focus more on the play of the hand. I know the basic strategy play, but there's nothing like a larger amount of money, or multiple splits * larger amount to distract you from the count. All of a sudden you have either gained or lost a large bet, and... oh shit... what was the count, or if not what it was, what is it now?

I can't play heads-up with a dealer yet, because I need time to register the count, so maybe speed does matter. Especially if the dealer is proficient, where they finish the play for you. They know I'm not going to hit that 20, or that 18 against their 6, so, heads up, before I know it that hand is over and the dealer is impatiently waiting for my next bet. I try to find tables with other players, so as get some extra time to keep the count. But as I get more practice I find that some situations are to slow. It's tough to find the Goldilocks table where the speed is just right.

Regardless, I don't practice with a deck of cards at home anymore. Seeing the count across the table is easy. It's what to od with this information that is the issue.

Large counts are the biggest distraction for me. I get nervous, less calm. If I lose the count, this is where it would happen. It's not difficult to ballpark if you don't cap your bets.
Dealer's sometimes try to set the pace. I usually let them. My last session, I've got two large bets out in an S17 against an Ace. Dealer hits to 17, hits again for a 5, declares 21, and swipes away my bets. Furious about losing, I didn't notice. But the pit was hawking my game and they noticed. 5 is burned and I crush them. Might be a bad example since it almost cost me, but if the dealer is blazing, I'm happier to let them screw up and swipe away the evidence than irritate them with my complaints. I have seen a very fast dealer who is also very proficient, but they aren't very common and easily avoidable if you are not comfortable. Soon, tho, you may prefer a speedy dealer to get more hands.

A word about heat to no one in particular.

There is no shortage of players on the various blackjack forums who regale us with story after story about heat. The pit boss looked at me. He picked up the phone. He whispered to the dealer. With today's surveillance that happens much less. The scowling pit boss with his arm crossed is going the way of the dinosaur. There is always going to be heat but if you are modestly spreading red chips I wouldn't worry too much and for goodness sake don't throw away money on cover play.

Heat can be very fickle. I have gotten away ridiculous things many times and I've also suffered from "El Cortez Syndrome". Just as you must practice counting, you must learn to distinguish heat from paranoia. The best way to beat the heat is to keep your sessions short and leave after exposing your spread.

I know.

Before I started trying to count, this kind of a situation was really a buzz. With a really good dealer, the rhythm gets going, 99% of the plays are quick and obvious to both of you, and you just go with the flow and revel in the certain satisfaction that you know how to play basic strategy. But counting adds a whole new level of attention that you have to bring to the table. You could still flat bet and basically break even, but that's not the point anymore. Like when you lose the count in the middle of a shoe and have to flat bet till the end, or wong out. The ego boost, regardless of the net win or loss, is NOW that you can play basic strategy AND COUNT!

Telling the dealer to slow down is like telling your dad to put the training wheels back on the bike, or taking off your skis and walking down the last half of the triple black diamond slope. It's the wise thing to do, but it sure as hell is a kick in the ego.

Plus, if I do that, I can't stop thinking that "they" know why I want to slow the pace. It's clear I play good Basic Strategy. Why in the world would I want to slow it down? Hmm... could he be counting?

Quote: 1BB

A word about heat to no one in particular.

There is no shortage of players on the various blackjack forums who regale us with story after story about heat. The pit boss looked at me. He picked up the phone. He whispered to the dealer. With today's surveillance that happens much less. The scowling pit boss with his arm crossed is going the way of the dinosaur. There is always going to be heat but if you are modestly spreading red chips I wouldn't worry too much and for goodness sake don't throw away money on cover play.

Heat can be very fickle. I have gotten away ridiculous things many times and I've also suffered from "El Cortez Syndrome". Just as you must practice counting, you must learn to distinguish heat from paranoia. The best way to beat the heat is to keep your sessions short and leave after exposing your spread.

Do you always split 10s when the index calls for it?

Quote: rhodyBob

I know.

Before I started trying to count, this kind of a situation was really a buzz. With a really good dealer, the rhythm gets going, 99% of the plays are quick and obvious to both of you, and you just go with the flow and revel in the certain satisfaction that you know how to play basic strategy. But counting adds a whole new level of attention that you have to bring to the table. You could still flat bet and basically break even, but that's not the point anymore. Like when you lose the count in the middle of a shoe and have to flat bet till the end, or wong out. The ego boost, regardless of the net win or loss, is NOW that you can play basic strategy AND COUNT!

Telling the dealer to slow down is like telling your dad to put the training wheels back on the bike, or taking off your skis and walking down the last half of the triple black diamond slope. It's the wise thing to do, but it sure as hell is a kick in the ego.

Plus, if I do that, I can't stop thinking that "they" know why I want to slow the pace. It's clear I play good Basic Strategy. Why in the world would I want to slow it down? Hmm... could he be counting?

I have no idea what his problem was, but I remember quite a while ago I played heads up against a dealer who was dealing about 1 hand per minute, purposefully. I was very patient, and I am sure my body language let him know I was not pleased. I don't remember how it was resolved, but I wish I had gotten confrontational, because it still bugs me. Point is, the slowest person decides the pace. There's no need to ask the dealer to slow down when you can just stop trying to keep up.

Quote: Sonuvabish

Do you always split 10s when the index calls for it?

Not always but it is rare when I don't. The Newport room at Foxwoods is one place where I would think twice about it.

Quote: 1BB

Not always but it is rare when I don't. The Newport room at Foxwoods is one place where I would think twice about it.

Really? I basically quit doing that because of ploppies. If they don't attack you with knives, they will literally point at you and whisper counter...unless you are betting small, then they will scream idiot. How do you handle that? I still occasionally split heads-up, or if it is a table full of proto-ploppies. It's not so much cover play, as much as it is I don't want to get murdered in the parking lot.

Quote: Sonuvabish

Really? I basically quit doing that because of ploppies. If they don't attack you with knives, they will literally point at you and whisper counter...unless you are betting small, then they will scream idiot. How do you handle that? I still occasionally split heads-up, or if it is a table full of proto-ploppies. It's not so much cover play, as much as it is I don't want to get murdered in the parking lot.

There are other players at the table? I've liked this saying ever since I saw it on another site many moons ago.

I ignore most of them. When I can't do that a cold stare can work. I've offered to sell them my hand and I've asked the know it all what the next card will be. The few times that counting gets mentioned I just laugh it off.

The goal is to keep attention away from the table. I never make playing decisions based on what others think. On close plays like a three card 16 against a 10 or 12 against a 3 I'll sometimes ask for their advice. That really throws them off and you become one of them.

Quote: 1BB

There are other players at the table? I've liked this saying ever since I saw it on another site many moons ago.

I ignore most of them. When I can't do that a cold stare can work. I've offered to sell them my hand and I've asked the know it all what the next card will be. The few times that counting gets mentioned I just laugh it off.

The goal is to keep attention away from the table. I never make playing decisions based on what others think. On close plays like a three card 16 against a 10 or 12 against I'll sometimes ask for their advice. That really throws them off and you become one of them.

Well, whatever you're doing, I haven't acquired the ability to handle it well yet. I split when I first began, and I got tired of the hostility and added heat that came with my increasingly higher bets--although soft 20 is not treated the same (because ploppies are stupid), so I generally follow the index. Keep in mind I never play short sessions. If I go to Vegas, tho, your advice may be useful.

Quote: Sonuvabish

Large counts are the biggest distraction for me. I get nervous, less calm. If I lose the count, this is where it would happen. It's not difficult to ballpark if you don't cap your bets.

I am exactly the same way. When the count sucks I have no problem keeping it. When the RC gets up to +30 or +40 (I use KISS III so no TC conversion, and these would be approx. +10 to +15 RC using Hi Lo) and I've got my huge bets up there, I start to sweat (literally) and am apt to lose the count. I'm getting better, but it's how I know I'm an amateur :).

Quote: 1BB

There are other players at the table? I've liked this saying ever since I saw it on another site many moons ago.

Me too.

Quote: Sonuvabish

Really? I basically quit doing that because of ploppies. If they don't attack you with knives, they will literally point at you and whisper counter...unless you are betting small, then they will scream idiot. How do you handle that? I still occasionally split heads-up, or if it is a table full of proto-ploppies. It's not so much cover play, as much as it is I don't want to get murdered in the parking lot.

Could you or someone tell me what the definition of "Porto-ploppies" is? I know what a ploppy is.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Could you or someone tell me what the definition of "Porto-ploppies" is? I know what a ploppy is.

LOL. It's just made up. It's like how most vampires come from Dracula or one of his lieutenants. Someone invents all those terrible ideas you hear at the blackjack table.

Quote: Sonuvabish

LOL. It's just made up. It's like how most vampires come from Dracula or one of his lieutenants. Someone invents all those terrible ideas you hear at the blackjack table.

Sorry, I don't get the definition.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Sorry, I don't get the definition.

LOL. It just means a really really bad ploppy, not your average ploppy. Super ploppy.

Is it just me or do we have a lot of new people entering the hobby/profession of card counting lately?? I mean, if this forum is a reliable indicator of such.

I wonder if it's just coincidence or if there are real world factors that lead to the influx. I'd think a bad economy, high unemployment rate would always be catalysts.

I wish you luck (or should I say, I wish you positive variance during +EV counts ) OP, let us know how it goes.

Quote: michael99000

Is it just me or do we have a lot of new people entering the hobby/profession of card counting lately?? I mean, if this forum is a reliable indicator of such.

I wonder if it's just coincidence or if there are real world factors that lead to the influx. I'd think a bad economy, high unemployment rate would always be catalysts.

I wish you luck (or should I say, I wish you positive variance during +EV counts ) OP, let us know how it goes.

I started because I am over-educated and my pay sucks...so yeah, you're probably right.

I got into it because the casino's a fun place to hang out while I finish my phd thesis...

Free pie.

Probably just a lot of seminary students parlaying the money from the poor box.

Plus I hear it's where young women go to pick up fat old white guys.

Only if that fat old white guy is ready to share his chippies. A certain slender forum member has recently been accused of not fairly sharing his chippies with juciejennie. I would name him, but gee WIZ, I can't remember his name at this time.

Quote: Buzzard

Only if that fat old white guy is ready to share his chippies. A certain slender forum member has recently been accused of not fairly sharing his chippies with juciejennie. I would name him, but gee WIZ, I can't remember his name at this time.

I would have paid her for pleasure. After announcing this to the table, she would either agree, or amuse me with an offended no and pay me my $40. That's how I roll.

Quote: Sonuvabish

I would have paid her for pleasure. After announcing this to the table, she would either agree, or ...

Awesome, truly awesome.