nvr55xx
nvr55xx
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March 8th, 2014 at 11:47:56 AM permalink
While advantage Blackjack players should try to avoid crowds of other players, here's an "interesting" story from a while back:

For quite a long time, I was playing at a Spanish 21 table with a VERY critical player who said that I "played wrong, ruined the order of the cards, etc." After a while, when I was noticeably up, she said: "Are you counting cards?" I explained that card counting doesn't work in Spanish 21. She said "I think you're counting cards. How else could you be winning?" (I had a large bet out at the START of the shoe at the time). When the pit boss came to check the chip inventory, player ratings, the PLAYER spoke up and said to the PB "I think that guy's counting cards". All the time, I was thinking "why the hell would a player say something like that? At the table is bad enough, but to say that to a pit boss is just plain idiotic. Do you want to HELP casinos?"

I guess I'm kind of wondering if this player (and others) seriously believe that card counters "hurt" other players if they "play wrong". If you have some thoughts or interesting stories, please post them.
Lemieux66
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March 8th, 2014 at 12:06:12 PM permalink
Quote: nvr55xx

While advantage Blackjack players should try to avoid crowds of other players, here's an "interesting" story from a while back:

For quite a long time, I was playing at a Spanish 21 table with a VERY critical player who said that I "played wrong, ruined the order of the cards, etc." After a while, when I was noticeably up, she said: "Are you counting cards?" I explained that card counting doesn't work in Spanish 21. She said "I think you're counting cards. How else could you be winning?" (I had a large bet out at the START of the shoe at the time). When the pit boss came to check the chip inventory, player ratings, the PLAYER spoke up and said to the PB "I think that guy's counting cards". All the time, I was thinking "why the hell would a player say something like that? At the table is bad enough, but to say that to a pit boss is just plain idiotic. Do you want to HELP casinos?"

I guess I'm kind of wondering if this player (and others) seriously believe that card counters "hurt" other players if they "play wrong". If you have some thoughts or interesting stories, please post them.



Back when I used to play blackjack, I got a lot of heat from other players because I only bet at positive counts. There were people, one at Resorts and one at Golden Nugget, that basically told the entire table not to play unless I was playing. I couldn't believe it.
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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March 8th, 2014 at 3:13:56 PM permalink
Quote: nvr55xx

While advantage Blackjack players should try to avoid crowds of other players, here's an "interesting" story from a while back:

For quite a long time, I was playing at a Spanish 21 table with a VERY critical player who said that I "played wrong, ruined the order of the cards, etc." After a while, when I was noticeably up, she said: "Are you counting cards?" I explained that card counting doesn't work in Spanish 21. She said "I think you're counting cards. How else could you be winning?" (I had a large bet out at the START of the shoe at the time). When the pit boss came to check the chip inventory, player ratings, the PLAYER spoke up and said to the PB "I think that guy's counting cards". All the time, I was thinking "why the hell would a player say something like that? At the table is bad enough, but to say that to a pit boss is just plain idiotic. Do you want to HELP casinos?"

I guess I'm kind of wondering if this player (and others) seriously believe that card counters "hurt" other players if they "play wrong". If you have some thoughts or interesting stories, please post them.


WOW that is mean spirited. I have never had anything even close to that in my limited counting career. Sometimes you will get weird stares from the rest of the table if you are raking in max bets at a huge count and your action is quite a bit higher. I'm sure some of them think in their head "man I wonder if that guy is one of those card counter people." But I have never once had any other players hypothesize verbally about it.

Now on to the real question - what kind of advantage play were you pursuing at said Spanish table?
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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March 8th, 2014 at 3:17:19 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
AxelWolf
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March 8th, 2014 at 3:22:46 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

"In simple terms, when in doubt whip it out." -AxelWolf

lol
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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March 8th, 2014 at 3:58:05 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I had a guy ask me if I was counting when I asked him to wait until the end of the shoe. Obviously it was a high count, but I denied that I was ;-)


You just didn't want him to mess up the flow of the cards, man.

Another thing I just thought about is that you sometimes get those same stares from the other players if you are LOSING max bet after max bet in a huge count. However, I doubt many of them mentally hypothesize that you might be a card counter in those cases :).
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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March 8th, 2014 at 4:05:40 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Impmon
Impmon
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March 9th, 2014 at 12:37:49 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

WOW that is mean spirited. I have never had anything even close to that in my limited counting career. Sometimes you will get weird stares from the rest of the table if you are raking in max bets at a huge count and your action is quite a bit higher. I'm sure some of them think in their head "man I wonder if that guy is one of those card counter people." But I have never once had any other players hypothesize verbally about it.



The only time I got asked if I counted was while playing at a church festival. The rules were so horrible that I was playing a dead even game. The dealer asked after seeing people come and go while I played for an hour on a $20 buy-in.

When playing for real, the closest is that on two different occasions, players started watching to see what I'd do when the dealer offered Insurance. The other day, I hit three successfully in quick succession. One player at the other end of the table said: "He must know what he's doin", as he put out the chips to insure his hand. All the other players insured and won. That was a good time to get out, as the pit boss was beginning to take too much interest.
Lemieux66
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March 9th, 2014 at 8:34:41 AM permalink
Quote: Impmon

The only time I got asked if I counted was while playing at a church festival. The rules were so horrible that I was playing a dead even game. The dealer asked after seeing people come and go while I played for an hour on a $20 buy-in.

When playing for real, the closest is that on two different occasions, players started watching to see what I'd do when the dealer offered Insurance. The other day, I hit three successfully in quick succession. One player at the other end of the table said: "He must know what he's doin", as he put out the chips to insure his hand. All the other players insured and won. That was a good time to get out, as the pit boss was beginning to take too much interest.



What do you mean by "dead even game"? Oh and at the church festival by me they have 2-1 on your BJ but ties go to the house.
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
geoff
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March 9th, 2014 at 8:41:07 AM permalink
Quote: Lemieux66

What do you mean by "dead even game"? Oh and at the church festival by me they have 2-1 on your BJ but ties go to the house.


A dead even game is where your EV is 0.
Lemieux66
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March 9th, 2014 at 9:38:46 AM permalink
Quote: geoff

A dead even game is where your EV is 0.



Oh, I thought he meant the table rules meant no house edge. That would be insane!
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
Deucekies
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March 9th, 2014 at 4:39:36 PM permalink
Quote: nvr55xx

When the pit boss came to check the chip inventory, player ratings, the PLAYER spoke up and said to the PB "I think that guy's counting cards". All the time, I was thinking "why the hell would a player say something like that? At the table is bad enough, but to say that to a pit boss is just plain idiotic. Do you want to HELP casinos?"



Not this specifically, but I've seen vindictive players like this before. Basically the attitude is "if I'm not winning, you can't win either."
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
21forme
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March 9th, 2014 at 4:40:27 PM permalink
Quote: nvr55xx

(I had a large bet out at the START of the shoe at the time).


Why? Were you shuffle tracking?
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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March 9th, 2014 at 5:18:26 PM permalink
Quote: nvr55xx

the PLAYER spoke up and said to the PB "I think that guy's counting cards".



Was the player's name Dan?
Sonuvabish
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March 9th, 2014 at 6:05:35 PM permalink
Quote: nvr55xx

While advantage Blackjack players should try to avoid crowds of other players, here's an "interesting" story from a while back:

For quite a long time, I was playing at a Spanish 21 table with a VERY critical player who said that I "played wrong, ruined the order of the cards, etc." After a while, when I was noticeably up, she said: "Are you counting cards?" I explained that card counting doesn't work in Spanish 21. She said "I think you're counting cards. How else could you be winning?" (I had a large bet out at the START of the shoe at the time). When the pit boss came to check the chip inventory, player ratings, the PLAYER spoke up and said to the PB "I think that guy's counting cards". All the time, I was thinking "why the hell would a player say something like that? At the table is bad enough, but to say that to a pit boss is just plain idiotic. Do you want to HELP casinos?"

I guess I'm kind of wondering if this player (and others) seriously believe that card counters "hurt" other players if they "play wrong". If you have some thoughts or interesting stories, please post them.



I've had a number of players mention it, or ask me. I've had two who were disgruntled about it...one was a mental feeble, and I don't know how he figured it--complained to another player. The other was a smart, lonely, fat lady: complained out-loud to her self, loud enough for the table and dealer to hear, but not clearly identifying me in her mutterings (I think she mainly wanted to impress me that she knew)...and who knows, this type of person maybe went to a pit boss before she went home and pointed me out, anything's possible. And what you describe is something I have worried bout, which is why I try not to make people mad if they show any sign of intelligence. But wow, you met one serious, degenerate, black-hearted, souless, whore of satan. I am sure many other experienced players will tell you, it is rare to meet a ploppy of that caliber. I don't know much about Spanish 21, but I doubt they care nearly as much about counting compared to blackjack.
kitties666
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March 9th, 2014 at 6:42:32 PM permalink
last summer @ mohegan i had pretty bad experiences with the other players. one of them involved this nice black lady who was up about $500ish when i showed up...I count the cards out of habit, but i always felt at mohegan they've got counting effectively marginalized by the variance generated by their rules. i was playing mostly BS, made a couple of AP moves here & there...that's about it, got took slowly & painfully on that trip. the lady didn't really know what to do if she was dealt anything below 17. her chips slowly dwindled away...her last dollars were spent splitting 2's against a dealer 7. sure enough, she didn't play those properly either (fear of busting) & she lost. her & another black dude that had recently joined the table went absolutely apeshit on me & the rest of the table for having the audacity to reccommend this play. they left together in a huff...a good laugh was had by the remaining crew & dealer. there was a BS chart-toting tourist who was also bad luck in that game. originally we were playing with just his wife & we're all winning. he had good etiquette & he wasn't a bad player, but he said he'd been losing all day....the minute he sat in to play the dealer just started raking...at least i got to watch a ploppy get a small taste only to lose it all...lol?
Mikey75
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March 9th, 2014 at 7:31:24 PM permalink
I was playing at a table some time back when these three guys came and joined the game. They all three claimed to be friends and playing together. They all set out until the new shoe started. Then only two of them played while the third one just watched. He told the dealer that he didn't like to play the first part of a shoe. The other two played right at table minimum. When the count turned positive the third player that hadn't been playing placed a much larger bet than the other two. He continued to place large bet through out the shoe until the count begin to fall. The next shoe he again sat out until the count went positive and then he came in with a large bet.

After a few shoes like this the count went far negitive. When it did all three players decided they would stop playing and just watch for a bit. Funny thing was I won every hand they sat out while the count was negitive. The big money player finally started playing but this time with a table minimum bet. Halfway through the next hand the guy setting next to me ask the big player " is it good"? The big player shot him a real dirty look. Then small player ask him is it six is that right? I almost fell off of the stool! I played a couple more hands and then I excused myself from the table. All three guys where actively arguing with each other about asking about the count so obviously. The big money player was up about a grand when I left.

I couldn't believe they where so open about it and couldn't believe nothing was said at all to them about it.
Paigowdan
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March 9th, 2014 at 7:37:39 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Was the player's name Dan?


No.
1. this is because I wouldn't care if Joe Blow was counting casino 'x'.
2. However, If it were at a casino where an associate or friend of mine was flooring or the PB, and this or worse was going on, I'd pull him aside far from the table. People wouldn't notice, or think I was asking for a comp.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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March 9th, 2014 at 7:58:31 PM permalink
Quote: Mikey75

I was playing at a table some time back when these three guys came and joined the game. They all three claimed to be friends and playing together. They all set out until the new shoe started. Then only two of them played while the third one just watched. He told the dealer that he didn't like to play the first part of a shoe. The other two played right at table minimum. When the count turned positive the third player that hadn't been playing placed a much larger bet than the other two. He continued to place large bet through out the shoe until the count begin to fall. The next shoe he again sat out until the count went positive and then he came in with a large bet.

After a few shoes like this the count went far negitive. When it did all three players decided they would stop playing and just watch for a bit. Funny thing was I won every hand they sat out while the count was negitive. The big money player finally started playing but this time with a table minimum bet. Halfway through the next hand the guy setting next to me ask the big player " is it good"? The big player shot him a real dirty look. Then small player ask him is it six is that right? I almost fell off of the stool! I played a couple more hands and then I excused myself from the table. All three guys where actively arguing with each other about asking about the count so obviously. The big money player was up about a grand when I left.

I couldn't believe they where so open about it and couldn't believe nothing was said at all to them about it.



That is hilarious. There is no way I would have left.
Tanko
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March 10th, 2014 at 4:47:52 AM permalink
Quote: kitties666

I count the cards out of habit, but i always felt at mohegan they've got counting effectively marginalized by the variance generated by their rules. i was playing mostly BS, made a couple of AP moves here & there...that's about it, got took slowly & painfully on that trip.


Mohegan has good rules and is all 6-deck. Their 60% penetration seems to make them regard counters as human ATM's.

On a few occasions, I've seen them allow more than double the BJ table maximum to accommodate players.

If any Craps player asks them to raise the Odds allowance on a $25 bet by even one multiple, they will refuse the request. I have yet to see an exception.

They apparently regard Odds bets as more of a threat than a card counter with a $6,000 hand.
Mikey75
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March 10th, 2014 at 11:23:04 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

That is hilarious. There is no way I would have left.



It was pretty funny. I was very new to counting at the time and their antics made me pretty nervous. If it happened again I wouldn't leave just to see how it all played out.

The big player bought in with a $5,000 chip from the casino next door. I often wondered if he was trying to play that chip at another place to keep from cashing so much in at the casino that he left. Of course there is no way if knowing what he bought in for at the casino next door.
beachbumbabs
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March 10th, 2014 at 12:06:42 PM permalink
Perhaps the chip from "next door" was still wet from the spray paint? Or even the sewer tube? (Joke)
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
1BB
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March 10th, 2014 at 12:43:08 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Perhaps the chip from "next door" was still wet from the spray paint? Or even the sewer tube? (Joke)



I've been assaulted, threatened, given money for saving the table, asked for loans, offered sexual favors, been felt up and had a drink deliberately dumped on my cards. Do not in any way think this is the norm. It is far from it. These few things happened over decades.

I'm very good at ignoring others at the table and even better at getting them to leave or eat cards when called for but only if they are jerks. I was even jumped in a parking garage by a guy and a girl in an attempted robbery. So much for not hitting a woman. Ah, the great casino life.

I do not discuss strategy or comment on the play of others. I do talk about my hunches, gut feelings and the flow of the cards.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
beachbumbabs
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March 10th, 2014 at 12:48:07 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

I've been assaulted, threatened, given money for saving the table, asked for loans, offered sexual favors, been felt up and had a drink deliberately dumped on my cards. Do not in any way think this is the norm. It is far from it. These few things happened over decades.

.



I have had all of those things happen as well, except a deliberate drink dump. It kind of makes you understand why high rollers want a table to themselves. I've never played at a level that I could ask for that, but I also go to play for the social enjoyment as well as the cards, so I don't know that I would. I did leave the Boomtown in Biloxi because of the clientele, though; was a rough crowd, and my mom, who was trying to move around in it, was the instigator of needing to leave, though I agreed.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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March 10th, 2014 at 12:53:47 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

I do not discuss strategy or comment on the play of others. I do talk about my hunches, gut feelings and the flow of the cards.



I point it out every time I save the table.
1BB
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March 10th, 2014 at 1:04:39 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I point it out every time I save the table.



Oh yeah, we're all on the same team. Ha ha. When you don't save the table, players and many times the dealer are only too happy to point it out.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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March 10th, 2014 at 1:13:19 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Oh yeah, we're all on the same team. Ha ha. When you don't save the table, players and many times the dealer are only too happy to point it out.



Well, yeah, that's why I need to point out the times that I do save the table!
nvr55xx
nvr55xx
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March 11th, 2014 at 6:55:07 AM permalink
I have observed a few times when a player has made a basic strategy error, lost the hand (especially when he would have won), the dealer busts, and heared the other players praise him for "doing the right thing" and "saving the table". Isn't the "right thing" the play with the best EV?

(Sarcastic) Remember: Blackjack is a TEAM game. Those counters in the "21" movie mad money as a team, so if you play as a team (and be obvious about it), you'll win.
nvr55xx
nvr55xx
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March 11th, 2014 at 6:59:46 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Oh yeah, we're all on the same team. Ha ha. When you don't save the table, players and many times the dealer are only too happy to point it out.



Don't forget that these dealers that tell you that you are ruining the order of the cards, playing wrong, and making other players lose are the same dealers that wonder why you don't feel like leaving a $1 tip after a $1000+ win!
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