Never saw this before!
Notwithstanding, contained in one of his "live action" videos, I happened to glance upon something that I have never seen before on a craps table layout anywhere. To me, it's just one more way how the house can, and will, squeeze every drop of juice out of the lemon (players). Here's a link to the video. I picked it up in a nano-second. Maybe you will as well. ANYTHING FOR A HOUSE EDGE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcAlnUjRLdg
It's a weird layout. It also is vulnerable to inadvertent past posting...if players make DC wagers that are mistaken for pre-existing DP wagers, those bets have a big player edge.
Quote: sodawaterIt also is vulnerable to inadvertent past posting...if players make DC wagers that are mistaken for pre-existing DP wagers, those bets have a big player edge.
I believe all DC and DP bets travel. At least that's how it's been whenever I've seen them combined.
Found this European Blackjack Open tournament on youtube as well
btw I went to Wendover many years ago and only found a couple of casinos, two on the main street and one a few blocks away. I'm not sure if it's a "day-trip" away from anywhere, but it is the last town in Nevada on the I-80 San Francisco to Salt Lake City. There aren't many towns on the Nevada stretch (except near Reno), and most of them have a casino or two.
Quote: Beethoven9thI believe all DC and DP bets travel. At least that's how it's been whenever I've seen them combined.
that makes sense
Quote: sodawaterthat makes sense
getting colder....
First, at the end of the day, the house really does not want players on the don't. That's why they won't let a player make a don't pass bet after the come-out and, allow a player to take down a don't pass bet any time before a 7-out.
Second, for the same reason as above, they have physically separated the pass line from the don't pass/come unlike any layout I have EVER seen before. Oftentimes, players arbitrarily switch from pass to don't pass simply on a whim. After all, the don't pass is right there next to the pass. With this configuration, the house is hoping that "out of sight, out of mind". Quite clever, if you think about it. Anything for an edge!
I'm sure it is that way to avoid past-posting once the point has been established. It also makes it easier for all players to reach to place a DC bet instead of having to reach way across the table or ask the dealer for help. Furthermore, it puts the bets right in front of the dealer instead of off to the side so he/she is more likely to see it and travel it to the last rolled number.
Quote: wudgedWhy would the casino not want players on the don't? It has an edge like everything else.
I'm sure it is that way to avoid past-posting once the point has been established. It also makes it easier for all players to reach to place a DC bet instead of having to reach way across the table or ask the dealer for help. Furthermore, it puts the bets right in front of the dealer instead of off to the side so he/she is more likely to see it and travel it to the last rolled number.
I do not disagree that there is a house edge on the don't. Still, there are more combinations to a 7 than anything else so, the house is going to be paying more don't winners than pass winners.
If past posting was really an issue, it would seem like very craps table on the planet would have the don't pass 12" distant from the pass line.
And, if the don't come was such a splendid bet for the house, one would think they would dedicate more real estate to it on a layout. There is truth to the old craps adage, "the bigger the number, the dumber the bet". Think of the big 6 and 8 in both size and location. Now think don't come. There's a reason the house makes it the size of a postage stamp. And, that reason is that, all thing being equal, it really does not want you there.
Quote: RivaI do not disagree that there is a house edge on the don't. Still, there are more combinations to a 7 than anything else so, the house is going to be paying more don't winners than pass winners.
According to none other than the Wizard, the pass line (49.29%) wins more often than the don't pass (47.93%) Taken from https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/
Quote: RivaIf past posting was really an issue, it would seem like very craps table on the planet would have the don't pass 12" distant from the pass line.
Different houses have different rules. In the description of the video it also says there are signs stating setting the dice is not allowed. If setting the dice is really an issue, it would seem like every craps table on the planet would not allow setting.
Quote: RivaAnd, if the don't come was such a splendid bet for the house, one would think they would dedicate more real estate to it on a layout. There is truth to the old craps adage, "the bigger the number, the dumber the bet". Think of the big 6 and 8 in both size and location. Now think don't come. There's a reason the house makes it the size of a postage stamp. And, that reason is that, all thing being equal, it really does not want you there.
I'm not saying the casino would rather you bet DP/DC over Big Red, I'm saying they have no reason to be afraid of you betting them. Why is the don't pass line almost the same size as the pass line then? Don't pass and Don't come are the exact same mathematically speaking. Why does the come bet typically take up the largest amount of space on the layout?
Quote: wudgedAccording to none other than the Wizard, the pass line (49.29%) wins more often than the don't pass (47.93%) Taken from https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/
That's only because of pushes. Pass bets can only be won or lost, there is no push. Look at probability of loss column.
However, the house will collect more losers on the pass line than on the don't pass.
Quote: wudgedThat doesn't change the fact that "the house is going to be paying more don't winners than pass winners" is incorrect.
Correct, I just wanted to throw in some clarification.
Gives a narrower field of focus for the dealer but at least makes him check that DontBox all the time. Too many dealers can go a week without ever getting a Don't bet so they just become lazy....then along comes a shot taker.Quote: sodawaterThey combined the DP and DC into one box, and they put it above the field.
In any case, I totally understand from your perspective about slowing down a charity game. Although, I thought I had read something you posted elsewhere on the site that you typically hire professional craps dealers instead of using volunteers? Even the pros mess it up from time to time, so I guess avoiding it altogether is still the best option.
Quote: RivaFirst, at the end of the day, the house really does not want players on the don't. That's why they won't let a player make a don't pass bet after the come-out and, allow a player to take down a don't pass bet any time before a 7-out.
What???
The reason that you can't make a don't pass bet after a point is established is because it would be +EV. It would be a huge advantage play; with proper Kelly betting and high max bets you could turn even a small bankroll into a massive amount of money in a relatively short amount of time. Your edge would range from 9% to 33% on these bets.
The reason that you can take it down is the same -- it's +EV at that point, so they will happily let the suckers take their money back instead of letting the bet resolve.
Quote:Second, for the same reason as above, they have physically separated the pass line from the don't pass/come unlike any layout I have EVER seen before. Oftentimes, players arbitrarily switch from pass to don't pass simply on a whim. After all, the don't pass is right there next to the pass. With this configuration, the house is hoping that "out of sight, out of mind". Quite clever, if you think about it. Anything for an edge!
What edge? The 0.01% difference in house edge between pass and don't pass? That is crazy. There is no significant difference in edge between betting pass and don't pass.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhat edge? The 0.01% difference in house edge between pass and don't pass? That is crazy. There is no significant difference in edge between betting pass and don't pass.
A gazillion years ago on Usenet I posted something about how long it would take to be 95% confident in distinguishing between play on the pass vs. play on the don't. It was in the billions of rolls, which translates into tens of thousands of years playing craps. Nobody lives that long.
I've played pass ever since.
Quote: wudged
In any case, I totally understand from your perspective about slowing down a charity game. Although, I thought I had read something you posted elsewhere on the site that you typically hire professional craps dealers instead of using volunteers? Even the pros mess it up from time to time, so I guess avoiding it altogether is still the best option.
Yes, for the most part, we hire pro dealers for craps, although we have volunteers jump in from time to time. My goal is to get as many rolls in per-night. Besides, allowing odds levels out the playing field, which is precisely what you do NOT want to do at a charity game.
Quote: wudgedWhy would the casino not want players on the don't? It has an edge like everything else.
There are a few reasons I can think of. One is superstition, and there is as much of that behind the tables -- if not more -- than in front of them. They don't like the idea that you're betting the same way the house is. Doesn't matter that they recover their vig by barring twelves. Another reason is that Craps is tailored to right way play. If you're a Don't player, there is much less chance you'll make those high vig plays like the Hardways or Any Crap. The seven is the nemesis of the right player, but friend to the don't player. Since seven hits more than any other number, they don't want you betting on it.
You see right way players making these bets way more often than the Don't players.
No difference in the odds but just not what I'm used to seeing.
Quote: PBguyI've never seen a craps game where a 2 is a push on the DP/DC. Everywhere I've played it's a 12.
I haven't been to Reno in a while, but they used to bar the 2 instead of the 12.
Quote: ImpmonThere are a few reasons I can think of. One is superstition, and there is as much of that behind the tables -- if not more -- than in front of them. They don't like the idea that you're betting the same way the house is. Doesn't matter that they recover their vig by barring twelves. Another reason is that Craps is tailored to right way play. If you're a Don't player, there is much less chance you'll make those high vig plays like the Hardways or Any Crap. The seven is the nemesis of the right player, but friend to the don't player. Since seven hits more than any other number, they don't want you betting on it.
You see right way players making these bets way more often than the Don't players.
I could not agree more. Typically, at our charity games, don't pass players rarely go in to the middle--which, at the end of the day,is where I want EVERYBODY to go.
We have one regular at our game who has a very interesting wager strategy.... He always puts down a $5 don't pass. If a 4 or 10 became the point, he would then place the 6 and 8. Then, he would only leave them out there for only two rolls maximum regardless if they hit or not. Then after two rolls, he'd pull then off and wait for his 7.
Often times I see the base dealer or (croupier) just make a motion to the player by tapping the table on the Don't Come Bet signal for the camera that the base dealer is aware of the move to make but prior instructions from the crap player has been given. This courtesy is accorded to the known regular local players.
A base dealer must be very careful not to do this especially on the numbers 4 & 10 because the players will have "basis" to argue that it was not moved and demand payout.
In Las Vegas big joints they have the Fire Bets available as a side bets? Do you have Fire Bets in UK craps?
There are also so many designs in terms of pay offs on Hard Ways Bets among others. There is a difference in pay off in the proposition bets from casinos found in the Strip and the craps tables found Downtown - the Freemont.
In selling tables and table felt layouts its known as a Reno Layout. Quite common.Quote: Beethoven9thI haven't been to Reno in a while, but they used to bar the 2 instead of the 12.
Quote: FleaStiffIn selling tables and table felt layouts its known as a Reno Layout. Quite common.
Guess a couple people in this thread have never been there. lol
Quote: Beethoven9thGuess a couple people in this thread have never been there. lol
When I visited the Wildhorse Casino outside of Pendleton, OR, they had the Bar 2 layout, which I had never seen before. The dealer said that it is a "Reno layout."
Every tribal I've ever been to in WA state has the traditional Bar 12 layout.
