Free Bet Blackjack question

Question about the FBBJ bonus game, Push 22.

Does the Push 22 bonus pay out any time the dealer makes 22, or only if your hand is actually pushed by it? (IE: your bonus bet loses if you make a blackjack or bust your hand.)

If the bonus pays out to any wagerers on any dealer's 22, does the dealer draw out against no players to try and make the 22 (like the Bust Bonus)?

Thanks.

Quote: Deucekies

Question about the FBBJ bonus game, Push 22.

Does the Push 22 bonus pay out any time the dealer makes 22, or only if your hand is actually pushed by it? (IE: your bonus bet loses if you make a blackjack or bust your hand.)

If the bonus pays out to any wagerers on any dealer's 22, does the dealer draw out against no players to try and make the 22 (like the Bust Bonus)?

Thanks.

Yes, your '22' wager is kept on the table until the dealer completes his hand. The dealer will continue to draw, even if there are no player hands left, in order to complete his hand.

Thanks for the quick reply, Geoff (I hope I got your name right). My next question would have been if basic strategy changes in favor of not busting, but sounds like that's a negative.

I'd love to give this game a try. Do you happen to have handy what casinos in Washington state offer it?

Quote: Switch

Yes, your '22' wager is kept on the table until the dealer completes his hand. The dealer will continue to draw, even if there are no player hands left, in order to complete his hand.

Now if only the rules stated that. I can see a casino just collecting the bonus if everyone has busted, especially a head to head game. I do not believe the Washington rules would prevent a casino from doing same.

The Push 22 bonus wager
wins if the dealer busts with a total of 22.

Quote: Buzzard

Now if only the rules stated that. I can see a casino just collecting the bonus if everyone has busted, especially a head to head game. I do not believe the Washington rules would prevent a casino from doing same.

The Push 22 bonus wager
wins if the dealer busts with a total of 22.

Here's the verbiage as presented in the literature on file with the WSGC.

Quote:

PUSH 22
If the dealer busts with a point total of 22, all player blackjack bets in action are pushes.
The Push 22 bonus wager wins if the dealer busts with a total of 22.
See payout sign for odds.
Note: Player blackjacks are paid before the dealer hits out his hand, so they are not affected by the Push 22 rule.

It can certainly be read both ways. Hopefully most, if not all casinos are reading it the way it's supposed to be.

Quote: Deucekies

Thanks for the quick reply, Geoff (I hope I got your name right). My next question would have been if basic strategy changes in favor of not busting, but sounds like that's a negative.

I'd love to give this game a try. Do you happen to have handy what casinos in Washington state offer it?

Yes, you spelt my name correctly :-)

You shouldn't change your basic strategy if you have a 'Push 22' side-wager out. However, there are some changes to regular basic strategy due to the dealer pushing on 22. The Wizard Of Odds site has the correct playing strategy for the game if you go there.

I'll try to find out which casinos in Washington have the game but I think that Emerald Queen is one of them.

Quote: Deucekies

Here's the verbiage as presented in the literature on file with the WSGC.

PUSH 22
If the dealer busts with a point total of 22, all player blackjack bets in action are pushes.
The Push 22 bonus wager wins if the dealer busts with a total of 22.
See payout sign for odds.
Note: Player blackjacks are paid before the dealer hits out his hand, so they are not affected by the Push 22 rule.

It can certainly be read both ways. Hopefully most, if not all casinos are reading it the way it's supposed to be.

This covers what happens when the dealer actually gets to 22.

If the dealer was to stop drawing cards due to having no player hands left on the table then this would actually hurt the house slightly as they have a house edge on the '22' wager.

However, to clarify, they could add another line to their literature, something like, "The dealer will complete his/her hand if there are no player hands left on the table, if the '22' side wager still needs to be resolved"

Quote: Switch

I'll try to find out which casinos in Washington have the game but I think that Emerald Queen is one of them.

I've heard back from the distributor in Washington who tells me that the game is currently in 3 casinos in Washington:-

Emerald Queen, Casino Caribbean and The Point.

However, Snoqualmie will be adding 2 Free Bet tables in the near future.

Hope this helps!

It does! Thank you very much.

Quote: Switch

..."The dealer will complete his/her hand if there are no player hands left on the table, if the '22' side wager still needs to be resolved"

I should have thought, especially if the casino has other side bets, a clearer idea might be for the house rule to be that the dealer completes their hand while there are any unresolved wagers.

Also, I can understand with a peek rule, Blackjacks should have already won; but what about places like Atlantic City. Your UK rule seems fairly clear.

Quote: http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/blackjackfreebet.html

In the event that the dealers hand totals 22 all wagers still in play will push or stand (except Blackjacks which still win).

Hey Switch, if using HiLo do you need to weight any cards differently because of the push 22? Also, should you adjust the True Count in anyway other than taking in account the HE? At my casino the HE is 1.01% so I'm -2 from the TC.

Sands PA offers this bet in free bet blackjack. If you bust or get blackjack, the dealer takes your push 22 side bet without resolving it, unless there is another active player still in the hand and the dealer needs to complete his hand. I think this in unfair and not sure if it is legal. I got into an argument with the floor guy, and he threatened to have me kicked out if I kept asking about it.

Quote: ryan.oreilly

Sands PA offers this bet in free bet blackjack. If you bust or get blackjack, the dealer takes your push 22 side bet without resolving it, unless there is another active player still in the hand and the dealer needs to complete his hand. I think this in unfair and not sure if it is legal. I got into an argument with the floor guy, and he threatened to have me kicked out if I kept asking about it.

Hi, Ryan, and welcome to the forum.

You ask 2 separate questions; unfair, and legal. They appear to have different answers. Bally distributes the game with the following information about how to resolve the Push22 bet, quoted from their Washington State application:

"If a player makes a Push22 wager and they bust their original Blackjack hand, the dealer must leave the cards on the table until the Push22 wager is reconciled."

later in the document,

"The Push22 wager wins if the Dealer busts with a total of 22, and the Player's hand does not exceed a point total of 29....

Note: Player Blackjacks are paid before the Dealer hits out his hand, so they are not affected by the Push22 rule. In the event that all players' hands bust or have Blackjacks, the Dealer will draw cards in order to settle the Push22 wager."

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/activities/game-rules/free-bet-blackjack.pdf

So I would say (my personal opinion only; I am NOT an expert on PA gaming) the Sands is not administering the sidebet correctly. However, (and it's a big one), I could not find published rules by PA for this or any game. Instead, on the PA gaming website, there are spreadsheets available for all approved games, which the OPERATOR (casino) can (must) submit to the state, telling them how they will deal the game, and the spreadsheet I saw offers a number of vaguely stated options. It's also possible they do publish approved PA rules and I just don't know where to look.

If the Sands applied to deal the game this way, and it was approved, there may be nothing you can do about it. It may also be that they are dealing it incorrectly, possibly not in accordance with their license from Bally, possibly not in accordance with what they told the state they would do. If one of those is the case, I don't know who you might contact other than PA gaming authorities, or perhaps the Sands' Director of Table Games. But, again, it appears they could determine for themselves how they want to deal the sidebet, so I suggest you proceed with caution if you decide to pursue it.

Sometimes you can argue that the game must be played a certain way to meet the stated House Edge - I have done this once on another bet to improve the casino instructions. Mathematically this is like a proof by contradiction.

In this case you can work out (on a spreadsheet) all the chances of the dealer getting various 22s - I hope this would give the same values as stated in the literature. From this you could deduce that the dealer must always complete their hand.

The proof is that
(i) if you were playing the minimum on the Blackjack bet and Maximum on the 22s bet and decided not to bust, then the House Edge on the 22s bet would be as above (and presumably is not in the favour of the player).
(ii) if you were playing head-to-head with a significant Blackjack bet, playing a reasonable strategy, there would be a significant proportion of hands where you would have busted;
(ii) if, when you bust, the dealer stops taking cards then you have no chance to win the side-bet;
(iii) every time this happens you automatically lose - thus mathematically the House Edge must exceed your chances of busting (as other times your bet is not in favour of the player);
(iv) the stated House Edge is probably lower than your chances of busting;
(v) therefore the dealer is not allowed to stop.

Below is excerpt from Chapter 590 of the PA Gaming Control Board Remaining Temporary Regulations for table games, current as of 10/14/2014. Link is here PA Gaming Control Temp Regs:

"(k) After the decisions of each player have been
implemented and all additional cards have been dealt, the dealer
shall turn the hole card face up.
(l) Except as provided in subsection (m), the dealer shall
draw additional cards until he has a hard or soft total of 17,
18, 19, 20 or 21. Any additional cards required to be dealt to
the hand of the dealer shall be dealt face up. The dealer shall
announce the dealer’s total point count after each additional
card is dealt.
(m) A dealer may not draw additional cards to his hand,
regardless of the point count, if decisions have been made on
all players’ hands and the point count of the dealer’s hand will
not have an effect on the outcome of the round of play."

As the Push 22 bet is a decision affected by the point count of the dealer's hand, I think Sands PA is required to deal out the Dealer's Hand to completion if a Push 22 Bet has been made according to these PA Gaming Control Board Temp Regs.

That being said, I guess one could argue that the "Push 22" side bet is betting that the dealer will draw to 22 and that will cause your hand to result in a push. Since you busted before the dealer hand was played out, you did not Push on a Dealer 22.

So the question is whether the side bet is a bet that the Dealer will draw to a 22 only, or whether the Dealer drawing to a 22 AND then pushing your BJ bet as a result. The bet is called "Push 22" and not "Dealer 22", but I don't know how the underlying math has been calculated.

I will say up to this point I have understood the "Push 22" bet to mean if the Dealer draws to 22 you win the side bet regardless of the result of your BJ hand.

Quote: Paradigm

...but I don't know how the underlying math has been calculated...

You have to use reverse logic. In theory the house has two ways of working out the House Edge and you can deduce, from their stated figure and pay-table used, which method they must have used.

Method 1 - Dealer completes the hand.
(a) The dealer completes their hand, and then resolves all 22 side-bets - you can see the UK odds at http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/blackjackpush22.html as about 4%.
(b) Check whether the pay-table being used is similar to that above - but I'm assuming it won't be worse than HE=10%.
(c) Thus any figure should be less than 10%.

Method 2 - Dealer stops, your bet loses if you bust.
I am guessing the dealer doesn't take any more cards (i.e. BJ vs low card, all hands busted) about 15% of the time. ( I got 22% from a quick sim of normal Blackjack, but suspect Freebet would be lower since you split more hands and double down more, so 15% is probably a low estimate.)
(i) 15% of time the side-bets lose since the dealer doesn't resolve the bet.
(ii) The remaining 85% have (say) a generous payback of 96%.
(iii) The total payback is about 82%, meaning the House Edge is about 18%.

So when you ask the casino for their House Edge, if their value is less than 10% the casino cannot be using Method 2.

What might happen if I file a complaint with the PA gambling commishon?

The casino is definetely using method 2.
Also, I asked the floor guy for a copy of the written rules to the game, and he refused.

The paytable at sands PA
is
Dealer bust 22 7-1
Dealer bust 22 same color 20-1
Dealer bust 22 same suit 50-1

Quote: ryan.oreilly

...paytable...
Dealer bust 22 7-1
Dealer bust 22 same color 20-1
Dealer bust 22 same suit 50-1

Assuming these are to 1, the House Edge - my spreadsheet is for UK rules, so s17 6 decks - comes out at 12.61%.

Thus I recommend you totally avoid the side-bet and not even worry what the casino rules are. It's also not surprising the casino won't let you have the details!

Quote: ryan.oreilly

The casino is definetely using method 2.
Also, I asked the floor guy for a copy of the written rules to the game, and he refused.

A strange game.
The only winning move is not to play.

It's my understanding that in most jurisdictions, if there is a sidebet in play that requires resolution of the dealer's hand (on any game, not just this one), that bet must be resolved. IOW, the only time it would be legal for them NOT to play out the dealer's hand is if nobody made the sidebet. The sidebet action they're taking on a bust or BJ is not contingent on the player's results, only on the dealer's.

However, I can't find any public statements about how the Sands PA has contracted with the state to deal the game. So they could be legally screwing you, and IMO it is a screwing based on the design and intent of the sidebet.

You have a right to file a formal complaint: you can do it at this website, electronically, or at the same site, download and mail a hard copy. If you do it, don't go half-way; be as exact and complete as you can.

http://gamingcontrolboard.pa.gov/?p=113

Speak with gaming and report Sands PA for cheating. They cheated you. I don't know how all the legal stuff works out, but there's a (good?) chance you can sue / file charges against them. At least I'd consider it.

It seems the game is using a temporary regulation and the PGCB intend to clarify the rules when it is "finalized". I've forwarded switch a copy of their e-mail.

Essentially if anyone still has any issue, they could reference the casino to the PGCB's proposed update - essentially the dealer stops if there are no side-bets, but the dealer shall draw additional cards if the dealer’s hand is less than a 17 in order to settle the Push 22 Wagers.

The official rules here in Washington now spell out very clearly how that is handled.

Quote:

PUSH 22*
If the dealer busts with a point total of 22, all player blackjack bets in action are pushes.

The Push 22 bonus wager wins if the dealer busts with a total of 22, and the players original hand does not exceed a point total of 29. See payout sign for odds

Note: Player blackjacks are paid before the dealer hits out his hand, so they are not affected by the Push 22 rule. In the event that all players' hands bust or have Blackjacks, the dealer will draw cards in order to settle the Push 22 wager.

Geoff, I'm a little bit curious about the "players original hand does not exceed a point total of 29" rule. I'm not seeing what that accomplishes. Is it designed as a penalty to a player who is stupid enough to hit a 20? I suppose it could be game protection against a player with next-card information, but it doesn't penalize someone who hits a 19 or less.

I'm curious if this rule has ever been invoked at any FBBJ table anywhere. :)

Quote: Deucekies

The official rules here in Washington now spell out very clearly how that is handled.

Quote:

PUSH 22*
If the dealer busts with a point total of 22, all player blackjack bets in action are pushes.

The Push 22 bonus wager wins if the dealer busts with a total of 22, and the players original hand does not exceed a point total of 29. See payout sign for odds

Note: Player blackjacks are paid before the dealer hits out his hand, so they are not affected by the Push 22 rule. In the event that all players' hands bust or have Blackjacks, the dealer will draw cards in order to settle the Push 22 wager.

Geoff, I'm a little bit curious about the "players original hand does not exceed a point total of 29" rule. I'm not seeing what that accomplishes. Is it designed as a penalty to a player who is stupid enough to hit a 20? I suppose it could be game protection against a player with next-card information, but it doesn't penalize someone who hits a 19 or less.

I'm curious if this rule has ever been invoked at any FBBJ table anywhere. :)

Sometimes the 'red tape' can interfere with basic common sense. I think that Washington are basically saying that all players who place the 'Push 22' wager are in until the dealer completes his/her hand. (The exception being those that hit '20' and receive a face card). Not sure why they didn't use 31 if they had to go this route - obviously it reads better to state "All wagers placed on the 'Push 22' are in play until the dealer completes his/her hand".

Regarding other issues in this thread; the 'Push 22' was designed so that the dealer hand was always completed. If the wager was only in play when the player does not bust his hand then this lends itself to a change in strategy on the main game, depending on the main and 'Push 22' wager sizes. The pay-outs would also be higher to allow for the non-payment of bust hands.

If a casino decides not to complete the dealer hand, when no live hands are left in play, then this actually lowers the house edge on the wager. The reason for this is that players will generally not bust against a dealer 2-6 and these up-cards give a higher chance of the dealer making a total of 22 rather than if the dealer started with a 9 or 10 for example.

However, if the dealer collects the 'Push 22' wagers without completing the dealer hand (due to no live hands left in play) then this dramatically increases the house edge, dependent on how many players are at the table. Heads-up would give a very big increase in house edge but I'm not sure what this figure is. The game is not designed to be played this way and hopefully the casinos will be educated fully on this and there will be no continuance of this misunderstanding of the rule.

Finally, the 'Pot of Gold' side wager, which is specifically designed for 'Free Bet', is starting to appear in more and more casinos. I believe that it is a far more enjoyable wager and I'm hoping that it will spread throughout all of the territories over the upcoming months.

Switch how much would it change the house edge if dealer pays on a 22;instead of pushing?

Quote: Hunterhill

Switch how much would it change the house edge if dealer pays on a 22;instead of pushing?

6.91% to the player.