Free Bet Blackjack
Quote: texasplumrI played Free Bet Blackjack at The Plaza this morning. I have to say; this game is serious fun! It took a shoe or two to adjust my thinking. But once I got used to it I had a blast! Plus, I was down a few hundred going in and won it all back plus 200. I would still be playing but we needed to eat. Our bodies are on Texas time. We're going to the Nugget next and I'm hoping they still have it installed.
Great job on this game! I hope you make boatloads of money on it. This game should be in every casino!
I think it was Terapined who was here a few weeks ago. He's right, this place is dead. The room is OK. Not as nice as we get at the Nugget. But it isn't bad. Worth what I paid probably. Since I've been playing green the last two days I hope it ends up being comped. It better be or we won't be coming back here.
What were the rules at The Plaza?
Free double any hard 9 10 or 11
Free split any pair except 10 value cards, free re splitting is allowed (I re split twice on one hand)
Free DAS as long as above doubling rule is followed
Dealer 22 pushes
BJ is paid before dealer thereby eliminating the push 22 in case of a BJ
That's what I remember
You posted this twice so, to avoid confusion, I'll answer here.
Quote: elvisthank you, I thought so but the casino manager says that the hand is dead and all bonus bets lose. Do you know your answer is 100% correct or is it possible that the inventor of this variation had this anomaly legitimately in as a way of giving the house and increased edge?
Geoff has addressed this and I observed the game at Mohegan Sun during it's 90 day trial. That's how it's supposed to be played. Can the casino make up it's own rules? I don't know but I don't see how it would benefit the house.
Quote: 1BBGeoff has addressed this and I observed the game at Mohegan Sun during it's 90 day trial. That's how it's supposed to be played. Can the casino make up it's own rules? I don't know but I don't see how it would benefit the house.
Simple, It would take away the players chance of winning the side bet. Increasing the edge significantly...
Quote: AcesAndEightsNice. I always try to acquire "ON" lammers from craps tables. I always have my come bet odds turned on for the come-out, and usually the dealers remove the button after the come-out roll. Sometimes they forget though, and include it in my payout if the number hits. Nice little souvenir :).
So you're the one who keeps taking my table's lammers!!! Grrr...
He he jk.
Not long ago, actually, I left a game to go to bathroom or some reason to leave and not play. Dealer put a shiny lammer on my spot while I was walking around the casino, pretending to go to the bathroom. I got back, dealer didn't take the lammer, so I snatched it. It's mine now bitches!!
Quote: mrsuit31Simple, It would take away the players chance of winning the side bet. Increasing the edge significantly...
Of course you're right. I was looking at it as the side bet pushing, which would be different, but elvis did say lose.
Quote: 1BBOf course you're right. I was looking at it as the side bet pushing, which would be different, but elvis did say lose.
No worries, I was just answering your indirect question :)
Quote: Dirk33Has anyone figured out with the better variance in this game, how much of a session bankroll you should play with and also if counting the game (mine has 1.09 HE.) should you increase your bets starting at TC +3? I'm using HiLo but wonder if I should track aces because of the Push22? Game is 8D, DAS, Split to 4, No Surrender, H17 and you can FS 4s. I've been back counting to +3 then playing 2 hands ramping up to 2 hands of $75 at +6 or more.
That's a lot of house edge to overcome, Dirk. I don't play the game nor can I give you a good answer. I don't know if you're aware but the inventor of the game is a member of this forum. Maybe he'll tell you how to beat his game. Wouldn't that be something?
Quote: Dirk33Thanks. Do you know his user name on here? On his blog he posted a year ago or so he was going to get the counting strategy by there was never a follow-up.
He's known by the name of his other popular blackjack game "Switch" and has posted many times in this very thread.
LOL .. I have a bunch of seat change buttons , missed blind buttons and overs buttons from various casinos.Quote: RSSo you're the one who keeps taking my table's lammers!!! Grrr...
He he jk.
Not long ago, actually, I left a game to go to bathroom or some reason to leave and not play. Dealer put a shiny lammer on my spot while I was walking around the casino, pretending to go to the bathroom. I got back, dealer didn't take the lammer, so I snatched it. It's mine now bitches!!
Hopefully my response will lead to the bets being left in play even if the players' bust, as that was the intention. However, different states can incorporate the rule however they wish which is unfortunate but they are allowed to do it if it's written in their procedures that way.
Please let me know if their procedure changes over the next week or so.
Quote: RedJackDoes blackjack pay 3:2 on this game at the majority of the tables, save for a select few(such as Casino Royale)?
Short answer, yes.
I have searched but couldn't find any.
Quote: ParadigmWhat impact does using a double deck have on the House Edge? Also is anyone in Vegas spreading the Pot of Gold side bet that Bally had at G2E? It looks a lot more fun than betting on the dealer 22, but that is just my humble opinion!
Very little effect Michael, in fact the house edge rises slightly as the reduction in free bets overly compensates for the 2 decks. From memory I think that 2 decks has a house edge around 0.08% higher than 6 decks.
Quote: andysifIs there any place on the internet where i can try this game?
I have searched but couldn't find any.
You can play it on the MyVegas suite of Blackjack games although that is a social gaming platform. There is currently no online software provider who has the game installed. Bovada are closest as they have a license and also offer 'Zappit' which is another 'Push 22' variation of Blackjack.
Quote: SwitchVery little effect Michael, in fact the house edge rises slightly as the reduction in free bets overly compensates for the 2 decks. From memory I think that 2 decks has a house edge around 0.08% higher than 6 decks.
Thanks Geoff, was downtown last night and mostly saw DD versions. Downtown Grand looks to be a new install. Any Pot of Gold installs yet, didn't see any Downtown, will hit the Strip tonight.
Quote: ParadigmThanks Geoff, was downtown last night and mostly saw DD versions. Downtown Grand looks to be a new install. Any Pot of Gold installs yet, didn't see any Downtown, will hit the Strip tonight.
Nothing on Pot of Gold as far as I know, which is disappointing. I'll try to find out what's happening.
I'm in Vegas too at present. My US phone not working at present but let me know where you're heading and I'll try and catch up with you this evening.
Quote: PokeraddictI was gathering game data and noticed that Luxor now only pays 6-5 on Free Bet Blackjack on a CSM. The other MGMs that offer it still pay 3-2 that I saw. I believe only Casino Royale and Luxor have this game with more than one deck as a 6-5. I guess that puts the house edge somewhere in the 2.4% range.
Oy! That increases the house edge by 1.36% in a six-deck game. I put the house edge of the standard rules at 1.03%, so this would bump it up to 2.39%, so good guess.
Did they have the Pot of Gold bet at the Luxor?
As a reminder, there is another Free Bet Blackjack thread here.
Quote: WizardOy! That increases the house edge by 1.36% in a six-deck game. I put the house edge of the standard rules at 1.03%, so this would bump it up to 2.39%, so good guess.
Did they have the Pot of Gold bet at the Luxor?
As a reminder, there is another Free Bet Blackjack thread here.
I don't recall the side bet as this game was not on my agenda. I was gathering slot info at Luxor and happened to notice it. Once I did, I started looking out for it at other MGMs out of curiosity but it was 3-2 everywhere else I looked.
I thought it was odd that Luxor would standalone with this bad rule change. I predict they are testing it out and if it sticks then it will spread to the others. The table at Luxor was full.
Quote: PokeraddictI predict they are testing it out and if it sticks then it will spread to the others. The table at Luxor was full.
Sadly, it probably will stick.
1: 1.18%
2: 1.10%
6: 1.04%
8: 1.03%
Quote: WizardI'm sure nobody will care but I finally wrote a Free Bet Blackjack simulator. It shows that the greater the number of decks, the lower the house edge, all other rules being equal. This is the opposite of conventional blackjack. I figure it is due to more Free Splits. Here is the house edge for various numbers of decks:
1: 1.18%
2: 1.10%
6: 1.04%
8: 1.03%
I am headed to Vegas Sunday and was wondering if anyone had an updated list of casinos this game is offered at? Table limits are helpful but not necessary.
Thanks!
Quote: WizardI'm sure nobody will care but I finally wrote a Free Bet Blackjack simulator. It shows that the greater the number of decks, the lower the house edge, all other rules being equal. This is the opposite of conventional blackjack. I figure it is due to more Free Splits. Here is the house edge for various numbers of decks:
1: 1.18%
2: 1.10%
6: 1.04%
8: 1.03%
This is an interesting game dynamic.
It would be revealing to put a trap in the sim to isolate the free doubles and free splits' effect on the HE. This is plenty, though.
Will this curio be added to the FB page?
Quote: Rand710I am headed to Vegas Sunday and was wondering if anyone had an updated list of casinos this game is offered at? Table limits are helpful but not necessary.
Thanks!
Most properties on the strip are now dealing Free Bet. At least one table. I can't say for sure at CE properties, but all the others have it.
Quote: Rand710I am headed to Vegas Sunday and was wondering if anyone had an updated list of casinos this game is offered at? Table limits are helpful but not necessary.
Thanks!
In the past year, I have played it at Plaza, 4 Queens, and the D downtown, Harrah's, Paris, and Mirage on the Strip, and know that most if not all MGM and CET properties now offer it. I agree with the other poster that it's less likely you won't find it than that you will, now, at any Vegas property.
My thinking is: doubling means we're excited to risk money with A9 versus 6. In the standard blackjack game, we win if dealer makes 22, and we push if we end up with the same total as the dealer. So if we win often enough in free bet to make doubling a good plan, and we'd win even more often in a standard game, then we should also double in standard. But we don't do this as part of standard basic strategy.
It is intuitive to me that we generally hit more aggressively with our free hands, because for free hands, a push is a loss, so we are less willing to hope for ties than we would be in standard. For example, it makes sense to me that we will sometimes hit hard 17. But the logic behind more aggressive doubling isn't clicking for me.
I might be misunderstanding something about the rules. I'm assuming that if I real-money double my free hand and then tie the dealer, I lose the free bet chip but push the double, but if I'm wrong about that then it would change things. Does a double transform a free bet chip into a regular chip, so now a push is really a push and not a loss?
Quote: MrGoldenSunWhat is the intuition behind real-money doubling a free hand A9 against a 6?
My thinking is: doubling means we're excited to risk money with A9 versus 6. In the standard blackjack game, we win if dealer makes 22, and we push if we end up with the same total as the dealer. So if we win often enough in free bet to make doubling a good plan, and we'd win even more often in a standard game, then we should also double in standard. But we don't do this as part of standard basic strategy.
It is intuitive to me that we generally hit more aggressively with our free hands, because for free hands, a push is a loss, so we are less willing to hope for ties than we would be in standard. For example, it makes sense to me that we will sometimes hit hard 17. But the logic behind more aggressive doubling isn't clicking for me.
I might be misunderstanding something about the rules. I'm assuming that if I real-money double my free hand and then tie the dealer, I lose the free bet chip but push the double, but if I'm wrong about that then it would change things. Does a double transform a free bet chip into a regular chip, so now a push is really a push and not a loss?
In free-bet, you don't real-money double. The dealer puts up a lammer that represents a bet equal to your ante. If you push, he takes the lammer back, you keep your money. If you win, you win 2x ante. But if you LOSE, you only lose 1x ante. This makes it much more desirable to double many bets you would otherwise hit or stand, because they only cost your original bet but pay 2x if you win, so if you can manage to lose them less than 2x the expectation of a doubling loss, you're ahead. Or even (since you're doubling on hands that have better value doing something else using regular strategy), if your chance of winning 2x by doubling is better than their value at 1x hitting or standing, it's still worth changing your strategy to take advantage of that.
I'm going to rely on the math guys' talents to give you actual numbers, but let's say (these are not accurate numbers!) A9 v 6 is normally +.2 EV to stand, +.12 to double. Those numbers were calculated knowing you must risk 2x your money to double, so you would stand. But with Freebet, you can only lose 1x your money, so that might raise the EV to +.24, better than just standing, even though you're going to lose a bit more often.
Hope that helps.
Quote: HunterhillIn most casino's you can't free dbl soft hands so A9 vs 6 would be a real money dbl not a free dbl.However the Wizards chart does not say to dbl A9 vs 6.
Right, I understand that I can't free-double soft hands. But the Wizard does recommend real-money doubling A9 versus 6 if it's a free hand. See the free bet chart on his Free Bet Blackjack page. I'd post the link but I am restricted as a new member.
Quote: beachbumbabsIn free-bet, you don't real-money double.
You do if you're doubling a soft hand, right?
Thank you for the detailed reply. I understand why someone should accept every free double or split opportunity, but I don't think it exactly answers my question, unless I have misread your answer.
I am considering the case where I have a free bet lammer on A9, and then double that, which requires real money. For example, I split 99 and get dealt an A on the lammer hand.
That chip I put out to double is saying "I am accepting your offer to play a hand of blackjack where I get A9 and you get 6, and I will take exactly one more card, and it's a push if you end up with 22. That is positive EV for me."
I don't understand how it can be profitable to for me to do that in free bet, but not standard where I win on a dealer 22. Maybe the answer is that player 20 is a stronger hand in standard than free bet where ties lose, so it's more valuable in standard to keep my 20? I dunno. I usually understand the logic behind basic strategy pretty well, but I'm still vexed here.
There are occasions where you real-money double on your initial two cards e.g. soft 18 vs 5 6 and soft 17 vs 6. I've had a few of these. There are also some occasions where you real-money double soft hands, A9 vs 6 is one, but you have to start with a pair (of 9s) and get an Ace on the second hand, so fairly rare - I've never had one.Quote: beachbumbabsIn free-bet, you don't real-money double...
What is less obvious but more important is hitting hard 17 on a free-money hand where the dealer has a A, 7, 8 or 9 upcard.
MrGoldensun,You're right, my mistake I was looking at the real money dbl chart instead of the free bet one.Quote: MrGoldenSunRight, I understand that I can't free-double soft hands. But the Wizard does recommend real-money doubling A9 versus 6 if it's a free hand. See the free bet chart on his Free Bet Blackjack page. I'd post the link but I am restricted as a new member.
Now I'm wondering the same as you, why does this become a double after a free split,but not for a regular real money bet?
If you double 10 you win 52.30% and lose 32.22%.
Thus the freebet portion (of $100) is now only worth $52.30 (as you win less often).
However the doubled bet will win 52.30% and lose 32.22%, so worth $20.08.
As $52.30+$20.08 ($72.38) is greater than $71.41 it's worth doubling.
Quote: charliepatrickThere are occasions where you real-money double on your initial two cards e.g. soft 18 vs 5 6 and soft 17 vs 6. I've had a few of these. There are also some occasions where you real-money double soft hands, A9 vs 6 is one, but you have to start with a pair (of 9s) and get an Ace on the second hand, so fairly rare - I've never had one.
What is less obvious but more important is hitting hard 17 on a free-money hand where the dealer has a A, 7, 8 or 9 upcard.
Yeah, I forgot about the soft hand restriction on the lammer. Thanks for correcting my post (along with others above).
Quote: WizardI'm sure nobody will care but I finally wrote a Free Bet Blackjack simulator. It shows that the greater the number of decks, the lower the house edge, all other rules being equal. This is the opposite of conventional blackjack. I figure it is due to more Free Splits. Here is the house edge for various numbers of decks:
1: 1.18%
2: 1.10%
6: 1.04%
8: 1.03%
Is there a pont where this trend stops? What if you have 10 decks? Or 100? Could it go negative for the house?
Do you know the numbers for a standard game? Your explanation makes sense but I wonder how they differ in order for standing to be correct.
My assumption is you win by standing more often than in free bet. And it's a close decision in free bet anyway, so you don't need much more EV.
Quote: charliepatrickThe figures for all the probabilities are on the wizard's site ( /games/blackjack/appendix/1/ ).
Oh man, why didn't I realize that?! Thanks.
Quote: WizardSadly, it probably will stick.
And it did, all tables i have seen have 6:5 now. (MGM, NYNY, Bellagio)
