Free Bet Blackjack
Quote: SwitchI was at The Golden Gate yesterday around 7pm, stayed for about an hour before heading to The Golden Nugget.
There will be quite a few more Vegas properties available to play this game in by the end of March.
Great to hear!
In California, the game is currently at Barona, Sycuan and Viejas although we are trying to get the game approved for Commerce Casino. I think there are a couple more that have just been agreed upon and I will try and get these posted over the next few days.
Quote: PaigowdanGreat to hear!
Thanks Dan! Maybe we can catch up sometime next week?
Quote: SwitchThanks Dan! Maybe we can catch up sometime next week?
Yes, absolutely; I will PM you.
We'll play some FB, et al.
Quote: SwitchI'll try and post a complete update of Free Bet installations after I get back from Vegas in April.
In California, the game is currently at Barona, Sycuan and Viejas although we are trying to get the game approved for Commerce Casino. I think there are a couple more that have just been agreed upon and I will try and get these posted over the next few days.
Ah, thanks. Those are a bit closer to San Diego than I prefer (I'm on the Anaheim side of things) and my usual grounds are the northern edge of the SD fringe (Pechanga/Pala/Rincon primarily) and Palm Springs (Morongo/Agua Caliente).
I could have sworn that Commerce was a non-Indian casino though-- there's no issues with a player-banked version of FBBJ?
Quote: Venthus
I could have sworn that Commerce was a non-Indian casino though-- there's no issues with a player-banked version of FBBJ?
That's what we are trying to work around and Commerce are certainly one of the casinos that will get this to work if there is a way.
Mohegan Sun has always allowed unlimited pair splitting, except for tens, at all their blackjack tables. That is not the case with Free Bet and the reason should be obvious. In this game, pairs may be split three times for a total of four hands. Tens may not be split and the reason for that should be obvious as well.
There is a 22 side bet available on whether the dealer's hand will total that number. Any amount from $1 to $200 may be wagered.
The payouts are:
Same suit 22 pays 50-1
Same color 22 pays 20-1
Other 22 pays 8-1
The dealers are well trained and were comfortable with the game. The only issue I observed were players attempting to put up their own money when splitting or when doubling a hard 9, 10 or 11. A pit manager had to be consulted when a player wanted a free bet on A,9. That was resolved when it was explained to the player that A,9 was not a hard hand.
People were enjoying themselves even when the dealer pulled the dreaded 22. Of course, the ones playing the side bet were rooting for it.
I'll remind everyone that the inventor of this game is a member of our forum so go ahead and give it a try if you're so inclined.
Quote: 1BBThe dealers are well trained and were comfortable with the game. The only issue I observed were players attempting to put up their own money when splitting or when doubling a hard 9, 10 or 11. A pit manager had to be consulted when a player wanted a free bet on A,9. That was resolved when it was explained to the player that A,9 was not a hard hand.
Is that the correct call? It seems strange that I can free-double an 8,2 but not a 9,A. The EVs of the plays are the same.
I played the game briefly and I enjoyed it. I think I like BJ Switch better (it's a more interesting game) but this one is probably more fun.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIs that the correct call? It seems strange that I can free-double an 8,2 but not a 9,A. The EVs of the plays are the same.
I played the game briefly and I enjoyed it. I think I like BJ Switch better (it's a more interesting game) but this one is probably more fun.
They got a copy of the rules and claimed that they stipulated hard hands only.
Also, I would argue that an A,9 is a hard 10 (although, by that argument, all 9s, 10s, and 11s are hard, so there would be no reason to state it in the rules, so I'm probably wrong)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWoO says any number of cards.
WoO also states allowing only two-card free double-downs is a variant for the game.
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyWoO also states allowing only two-card free double-downs is a variant for the game.
He said that they were possible rule variations, not that they were actually offered.
Of course, the casino can offer whatever rules they want.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHe said that they were possible rule variations, not that they were actually offered.
Of course, the casino can offer whatever rules they want.
S17 is a rule variant and that is offered. Maybe they are using more than one, hey hey?
Wiz is going to need an Edge Calculator tool like he has for regular BJ rules variations for the WoO site, cause Free Bet BJ is going to be around for a while and be offered under various rules depending on the property would be my guess.
Kudos to Switch......FBBJ is a winner and will surpass his previous hit "BJ Switch" IMHO!
Quote: ParadigmI am sure Switch will weigh in, but my understanding is there are a variety of rules that can be customized by the casino depending on the properties desired HE. Surrender, Free Doubles on two or multi card hard 9-11's, Free Splits on 4's (I don't believe free splits on 10's was ever an option), etc.
Wiz is going to need an Edge Calculator tool like he has for regular BJ rules variations for the WoO site, cause Free Bet BJ is going to be around for a while and be offered under various rules depending on the property would be my guess.
Kudos to Switch......FBBJ is a winner and will surpass his previous hit "BJ Switch" IMHO!
WoO already lists the HE effects for the basic game and the variants. Sure, an edge calculator would be a easy crutch to use, but I'm good with figuring out the HE using the information provided. I just need the rules! [Note: I have notified WoO site that their information about FBB differs from information posted by Switch.]
Edit: Added note.
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyWoO already lists the HE effects for the basic game and the variants. Sure, an edge calculator would be a easy crutch to use, but I'm good with figuring out the HE using the information provided. I just need the rules!
At which casino?
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyIs late surrender allowed? No resplitting aces?
Late surrender is allowed and there is no re- splitting aces at Mohegan Sun. Free doubles are for two card 9, 10 and 11 only. Other casinos that allow doubling on more than two cards compensate in other ways such as forbidding the splitting of 4,4.
These aren't the worst rules, guys.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAt which casino?
1BB has provided some details about FBBJ which just opened up at Mohegan Sun today. So far S17 is the only variant mentioned as in use at that casino. That variant is consistent with the rules at all their other BJ tables except those with felt for the $5 game. I'm trying to find out from 1BB if two-card only free double-down is also a variant in use at Mohegan Sun. Using that variant would have a HUGE impact on the HE.
Quote: 1BBThey got a copy of the rules and claimed that they stipulated hard hands only.
And that is the standard rule. Although Viejas in CA supposedly allowed it on soft 19, soft 20, or soft 21 at least for awhile. According to Stephen How that lowers the house edge by 0.22%.
http://discountgambling.net/category/free-bet-blackjack/
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyWoO also states allowing only two-card free double-downs is a variant for the game.
It's pretty much the standard rule in most casinos that offer it.
Does any casino still allow a double down on any amount of cards anymore, Switch?
And when is this game coming to Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, or Mississippi? :D
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly1BB has provided some details about FBBJ which just opened up at Mohegan Sun today. So far S17 is the only variant mentioned as in use at that casino. That variant is consistent with the rules at all their other BJ tables except those with felt for the $5 game. I'm trying to find out from 1BB if two-card only free double-down is also a variant in use at Mohegan Sun. Using that variant would have a HUGE impact on the HE.
Ok, I see.
Sorry, I didn't realize that you were referring to that particular casino (you didn't quote anything and this is a long thread)
Quote: 1BBLate surrender is allowed and there is no re- splitting aces at Mohegan Sun. Free doubles are for two card 9, 10 and 11 only. Other casinos that allow doubling on more than two cards compensate in other ways such as forbidding the splitting of 4,4.
These aren't the worst rules, guys.
Edit: Removed my post, please see post by Switch for correct information.
Quote: Paradigm...FBBJ is a winner and will surpass his previous hit "BJ Switch" IMHO!
It might, given the simpler strategy needed for optimal play. But if a casino chooses variants resulting in a high house edge (e.g., %1.17 at Mohegan Sun, AFAIK) then I'll pass. [Note: my analysis was far off. Please see post by Switch for correct information.]
Edit: Added note. Mea culpa!
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyIt might, given the simpler strategy needed for optimal play. But if a casino chooses variants resulting in a high house edge (e.g., %1.17 at Mohegan Sun, AFAIK) then I'll pass.
Firstly, thank you to 1BB for the Mohegan Sun opening along with a brief report on the game - much appreciated and I will update my Free Bet Facebook page to reflect on the opening.
The game at Mohegan Sun has a pretty decent edge. This is due to the fact that a S17 game is worth 0.31% to the player due to the 'Push 22' rule. I'm surprised that they allowed 'Surrender' but I guess that they must have it on all of their Blackjack tables.
To calculate the edge then you can adapt the HE from the base line 6-deck results for the regular game. Please note that the 'regular' game only contains doubling on 2-card totals as all casinos in Vegas now implement this version.
The house edge for the 6-deck game, main version is 1.02% and, if 'surrender' is allowed (-0.21%) then this lowers the house edge to 0.81%.
For Mohegan Sun:-
Base house edge (with Surrender) 0.81%
Dealer Stands on Soft 17 -0.31%
No re-splitting of Aces +0.08%
End result is a house edge of 0.58% with a game that offers less volatility and an easier playing strategy for new players.
I'm not sure how long the 'Surrender' will last if the hold % is too low. I'm hoping that the game will maintain decent win levels as this would be a very disappointing removal.
Quote: SwitchFirstly, thank you to 1BB for the Mohegan Sun opening along with a brief report on the game - much appreciated and I will update my Free Bet Facebook page to reflect on the opening.
The game at Mohegan Sun has a pretty decent edge. This is due to the fact that a S17 game is worth 0.31% to the player due to the 'Push 22' rule. I'm surprised that they allowed 'Surrender' but I guess that they must have it on all of their Blackjack tables.
To calculate the edge then you can adapt the HE from the base line 6-deck results for the regular game. Please note that the 'regular' game only contains doubling on 2-card totals as all casinos in Vegas now implement this version.
The house edge for the 6-deck game, main version is 1.02% and, if 'surrender' is allowed (-0.21%) then this lowers the house edge to 0.81%.
For Mohegan Sun:-
Base house edge (with Surrender) 0.81%
Dealer Stands on Soft 17 -0.31%
No re-splitting of Aces +0.08%
End result is a house edge of 0.58% with a game that offers less volatility and an easier playing strategy for new players.
I'm not sure how long the 'Surrender' will last if the hold % is too low. I'm hoping that the game will maintain decent win levels as this would be a very disappointing removal.
Most players will not surrender. I play in games where surrender is allowed and I've never once seen anyone but me take advantage of it. (I have seen someone try, and get away with, surrendering in a game that did not allow it, though. He was clearly "taking a shot" (he knew full well that surrender was not allowed) but, unfortunately for him, he was surrendering incorrectly. I honestly believe that every blackjack game should offer, and advertise, surrender)
It sounds like this is about the same as an average blackjack game. I'm not sure why you say that it has less volatility, though. The increased number of doubles and splits increases the volatility significantly (which is why it's fun!)
I still like switch more, but I think that free bet will be more popular.
8 deck(?). Looked like 75% penetration.
Free: Split any non-10 pair. Aces draw one card. Double on hard 9/10/11, (cannot attest to first two cards only or not). (A8 does not quality. I prefer the rule label at the Golden Nugget, that says all ace hands are non-free.) Some dealers let us double hard 8s too, despite what the felt says.
Resplit to 4 hands; resplit Aces.
BJ pays 3:2.
Hit soft 17.
Late surrender.
Dealer 22 pushes; 1-25 sidebet paying 8/20/50 for 22, monochrome 22, suited 22. (Regardless of number of cards-- in the 10 hours or so I was there, I saw 4 suited 22s, including a 5-card one!)
1 table, 7 spots, open from 9AM-ish to whenever. 10-1000 limit. (Three of us were sitting around, waiting for it to open the other day-- in comparison to only one other BJ table having any people at that hour.) 2 hands is double minimum, 3 is 5x, I think. Table was consistently crowded-- which was problematic, since it feels cramped even with only 5 spots occupied. They work on an oral system for when you want free doubles/splits, unlike other other FBBJs I've seen.
Other thoughts: They were very careful about pushing 22s. Unlike The D, where I'd say I got paid on about 20% of them, and The Golden Nugget, where I got paid on maybe 5%. Often had a floor manager keeping an eye on it. There were a few mistakes with the technical aspect of managing the bets and two notable cases where somebody was stiffed on the sidebet. (Same guy too-- first time he had a BJ and the dealer collected the cards, then tried to say that he put the sidebet out after his hand was resolved; second time, he was paid 8-1 instead of 20-1. He was so happy about not having to argue for it that he didn't notice; the rest of the table caught it.) Players were generally pretty chill, even over weird moves like splitting 55 vs 6, except one guy playing 2x300 arguing with a guy playing 10$ over whether or not a 14 vs 5 should be hit. Saw the longest hand ever here: a 7-card 18, which just squeaked past the dealer's 17. Also, inconsistent behavior if tips got doubled or not.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceMost players will not surrender. I play in games where surrender is allowed and I've never once seen anyone but me take advantage of it. (I have seen someone try, and get away with, surrendering in a game that did not allow it, though. He was clearly "taking a shot" (he knew full well that surrender was not allowed) but, unfortunately for him, he was surrendering incorrectly. I honestly believe that every blackjack game should offer, and advertise, surrender)
It sounds like this is about the same as an average blackjack game. I'm not sure why you say that it has less volatility, though. The increased number of doubles and splits increases the volatility significantly (which is why it's fun!)
I still like switch more, but I think that free bet will be more popular.
Few people know what surrender is let alone how to do it correctly. It's so rarely used by regular players that I've seen a few pits that will call it out when a player surrenders as someone to watch for counting.
Quote: SwitchEnd result is a house edge of 0.58% with a game that offers less volatility and an easier playing strategy for new players.
Thank you for correcting what I posted. I will edit that post. Sounds like Mohegan Sun is offering a great new game, I'm in, gimme some chips!
Quote: tringlomane
Does any casino still allow a double down on any amount of cards anymore, Switch?
And when is this game coming to Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, or Mississippi? :D
I believe that all casinos only allow free doubling on 2 cards only Tring.
I've found out that the game is at Island View and Beau Rivage in Mississippi with other casinos there showing interest.
Hope this helps!
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyThank you for correcting what I posted. I will edit that post. Sounds like Mohegan Sun is offering a great new game, I'm in, gimme some chips!
Hehe, you're welcome.
Quote: VenthusIf anybody's curious about the situation at Pala:
... ... ...
Also, inconsistent behavior if tips got doubled or not.
Great report Venthus - thank you for taking the time to post it.
Regarding the tips then ALL dealer bets should receive free doubles and splits as well.
Some of you play in the $5 pit and I'd like to point out that the house edge there is 0.55%. Yes, the table minimum never rises but let's take a look at the difference between playing there and playing Free Bet at $10 minimums. For now, and maybe always, you are going to play more hands per hour in the $5 pit. Do you see where I'm going? You may flat bet 80 hands at $5 for a total of $400 per hour where at Free Bet you may flat bet 50 hands at $10 for a total of $500. I'll leave you to do the math.
I didn't stand there and count the hands and am just using these numbers to make a point. The point is to know the house edge but don't get hung up on it without considering other factors. If you want to play the game go right ahead and do so. It won't cost that much more.
I pay a lot of taxes to the state of Connecticut so I want our casinos to prosper and as a member of this forum I want my fellow member's game to succeed. Will I play Free Bet? Sorry, I going to have to take the 5th on that. :-)
Thanks for the follow up about Mohegan Sun Free Bet Blackjack, 1BB. The 0.58% house edge as calculated by Switch is great! I was hoping for a HE<1% game and that's what we have.Quote: 1BBIs everyone okay with the 0.58% house edge at Mohegan Sun?
I hope that logic holds regarding surrender as well. That is, it has always been allowed at all BJ tables.Quote: 1BBIt would be nice if they added the re-splitting of aces ...[, but] that won't happen as this casino has never allowed it at any regular blackjack game.
Sure, I'll throw in twice the comps, too, even though that's chump change at the $5 tables. So, +chump-changex2 :-)Quote: 1BBSome of you play in the $5 pit and I'd like to point out that the house edge there is 0.55%. Yes, the table minimum never rises but let's take a look at the difference between playing there and playing Free Bet at $10 minimums. For now, and maybe always, you are going to play more hands per hour in the $5 pit. Do you see where I'm going? You may flat bet 80 hands at $5 for a total of $400 per hour where at Free Bet you may flat bet 50 hands at $10 for a total of $500. I'll leave you to do the math.
I agree with you. For sticking my neck out only a teensy-weensy bit more I can play a more dynamic game than just the same old basic strategy.Quote: 1BBIf you want to play the game go right ahead and do so. It won't cost that much more [than $10 blackjack.]
Well, I can't say I'm happy about where I fit into that, but no one is forcing me to play! See you at the tables... or not. ;->Quote: 1BBI want our [Connecticut] casinos to prosper and as a member of this forum I want my fellow member's game to succeed.
Quote: 1BBIs everyone okay with the 0.58% house edge at Mohegan Sun? As I said in an earlier post, the rules aren't that bad. It would be nice if they added the re-splitting of aces to bring it down to an even 0.50%. That won't happen as this casino has never allowed it at any regular blackjack game. Anything more than that such as doubling on multiple cards or, gulp, allowing 10s to be split and the game begins to become vulnerable.
Some of you play in the $5 pit and I'd like to point out that the house edge there is 0.55%. Yes, the table minimum never rises but let's take a look at the difference between playing there and playing Free Bet at $10 minimums. For now, and maybe always, you are going to play more hands per hour in the $5 pit. Do you see where I'm going? You may flat bet 80 hands at $5 for a total of $400 per hour where at Free Bet you may flat bet 50 hands at $10 for a total of $500. I'll leave you to do the math.
I didn't stand there and count the hands and am just using these numbers to make a point. The point is to know the house edge but don't get hung up on it without considering other factors. If you want to play the game go right ahead and do so. It won't cost that much more.
I pay a lot of taxes to the state of Connecticut so I want our casinos to prosper and as a member of this forum I want my fellow member's game to succeed. Will I play Free Bet? Sorry, I going to have to take the 5th on that. :-)
JMHO as a player, not a casino manager, but I would want to keep the rules as consistent within the house as possible to avoid opportunities for dealer errors. It also should help with less arguments at the table; if you could split aces (for example) on FreeBet but not any other BJ table, I would guess there'd be confusion among players, questions, floor called over to verify, etc. Probably they get enough of that with S17/H17 on different tables. So it makes sense to me that they're not allowing resplit of aces for that reason alone. Agree that it would be great for players if they did.
Quote: 1BBThey aren't that consistent in some respects. Relief dealers have three tables. They are routinely assigned to a mix of regular blackjack and Spanish 21 tables. It is so common for dealers to come from a Spanish 21 table to a regular blackjack table and continue the Spanish 21 payouts that players are exploiting it. You should see some of the payouts.
LOL! This is a casino I want to play in! Spanish payouts with a regular blackjack deck? Sign me up!
Quote: 1BBThey aren't that consistent in some respects. Relief dealers have three tables. They are routinely assigned to a mix of regular blackjack and Spanish 21 tables. It is so common for dealers to come from a Spanish 21 table to a regular blackjack table and continue the Spanish 21 payouts that players are exploiting it. You should see some of the payouts.
Lol. I'm sure you're right!
Quote: 1BBThey aren't that consistent in some respects. Relief dealers have three tables. They are routinely assigned to a mix of regular blackjack and Spanish 21 tables. It is so common for dealers to come from a Spanish 21 table to a regular blackjack table and continue the Spanish 21 payouts that players are exploiting it. You should see some of the payouts.
It is a real problem for operators. We had push back on Mulligan 21 at one property where they said they were concerned about this very issue. To combat this with BJ and Spanish, they separate Spanish 21 from regular BJ on the floor by including Spanish tables in pits with the carnival games and BJ tables in Craps and Roulette pits.
Who wants to be the dealer in a three table rotation of regular BJ, Spanish 21 and Free Bet BJ. Don't forget to Push 22 on Free Bet and stop the bonus payouts except when you are on Spanish. It has got to be tough for them to go from one game to the next, particularly when they are all 21 based games.
Meanwhile, Lucky & I are selling a BJ variant with a Push 17 rule......stop the madness :-)!!
I always suggest that, if possible, they rotate a dealer between 'Switch', or 'Free Bet', and a non-Blackjack game like 3CP. I agree that it certainly adds to a dealer's workload if they come off a regular Blackjack game and then dive straight into a 'Push 22' game.
If I'm in the area today I'll pop in to see how the game is doing. If not I'll check on Monday.
There was a good noontime Saturday crowd and all four Free Bet tables were open. One had three players and the other three were filled to capacity. Players were enjoying themselves and there was quite a gallery of observers and friends cheering them on. The game has sparked a lot of interest.
The dealers were well versed in the game and were very helpful to the players. There were the inevitable 22s but you should have seen the look on the players' faces after winning bets with multiple lammers on the felt. Priceless! From the players' perspective, it looks like this game is a hit. Here's hoping that it's a hit for the casino as well. Good luck, Switch!
Quote: SwitchI have a dream whereby they have enough versions to open a 'Push 22' pit :-) They could choose from Switch, Free Bet, Power, Burn 20 and Zappit.
Is Burn 20 installed anywhere in LV? I noticed it is gone from Binions and that was the only place I knew it existed.
