Evolution of Blackjack Rules
* No exposed dealer card.
* Dealer could force you to double down against HIS hand.
Napoleon was very fond of these rules :)
Quote: GHRead "The Big Book of Blackjack," by Arnold Snyder. Some of the interesting "old rules" were:
* No exposed dealer card.
* Dealer could force you to double down against HIS hand.
Napoleon was very fond of these rules :)
Thanks, I will check out the book. I am more interested in the games Sinatra would have played than Napoleon.
Jim Rockford: Angel has been in stir, he knows better than to talk without his lawyer present and you're his lawyer. Angel knows better - he'll keep his mouth shut.
[Scene changes to Angel being interrogated by Federal Agents]
Evelyn 'Angel' Martin: [Excitedly] See, you want to be talking to Jim Rockford and his father Joseph. Let me spell that for ya: Rockford, R-O-C-K-F-O-R-D.
Quote: GHRead "The Big Book of Blackjack," by Arnold Snyder. Some of the interesting "old rules" were:
* No exposed dealer card.
* Dealer could force you to double down against HIS hand.
Napoleon was very fond of these rules :)
I looked at the Snyder book and it has a very interesting history of early versions of 21. However it does not contain the information I am curious about. What were the rules in the '50s, '60s and '70s. When did the surrender rules start? It seems an unlikely rule. It offers players a little better return, but few are inclined to use it correctly. Can anyone enlighten me about our game's more recent past?
Basically, if the Rat Pack settled down for a few hands of blackjack (or "twenty one") back in the day, what would the rules be, and would they vary from casino to casino?
Downtown rules were single deck mostly. Main difference from what they called "Strip Rules" was they were H 17 v. Strip was always S 17. There were single decks and multi decks on the Strip but mainly single deck. Also you didn't see 6 deck or 8 deck until later. Believe it or not, there were 4 deck shoes. You could actually in old days find games on the strip that were positive EV because they allowed S 17, single deck, DAS, and resplit aces. Places varied on resplitting aces. But resplitting any other pairs wasn't an issue. Some didn't allow DAS on single deck. Most did allow DAS. No one had that 6-5 BS on Blackjack. This was before all the math analysis of today.
Surrender was rare but Caesars stood out as always offering it. They actually had a little token they gave you to put on top of your bet when you surrendered. Many then still didn't take advantage of it and you were ridiculed sometimes for being "chicken" by other players because you were giving up half your bet without "fighting".
There weren't side bets until later either. It was a BIG deal when over under 13 came out as a side bet.
Penetration was different also. The main concern was not running out of cards during a round. Sometimes it happened during single deck and they they just shuffled the remaining cards and finished the round/play. Then reshuffled the deck again for the next round. Also dealers would look at their remaining cards and guestimate sometimes as to whether or not they had enough cards to finish. Penetration on shoes was deeper than anyone who plays today has EVER seen.
Comps were a dream during those days. You could get RFB in a lot of places (other than expensive joints like Caesars) VERY easily. Green chip betting got it at places like The Dunes, Desert Inn, Tropicana that are no longer here. Shoot the Riviera would offer us cheap junkets to come and play including airfare for this action.
It would sure be nice to have those days back again!!! LOL
If a green chip is now a black chip adjusted for inflation , do you think you get less comps now compared to back then?Quote: MJGolfGreen chip betting got it at places like The Dunes, Desert Inn, Tropicana that are no longer here.
Quote: MJGolfComps were a dream during those days. You could get RFB in a lot of places (other than expensive joints like Caesars) VERY easily. Green chip betting got it at places like The Dunes, Desert Inn, Tropicana that are no longer here. Shoot the Riviera would offer us cheap junkets to come and play including airfare for this action.
Not so long ago. I took several plane junkets to Atlantic City in the 80's where the net cost was $0 factoring in coupons good for cash (rolls of quarters for the slots) and bus trips where you actually turned a slight profit - you could sell the coupons at par to people on the boardwalk.
One bus trip was advertised as a Playboy Casino junket - but when you arrived in the bus lot the minder on the bus told you to be sure and be quiet where you were really staying in order to get the Playboy coupons handed out before you de-bussed. We ended up at a dive called the Deauville full of degenerates. The Playboy seemed none the wiser. That deal went away when they blew up the Deauville for a new casino.
Thanks MJ. That’s the answer I was looking for seven and a half years ago.Quote: MJGolfThere used to be true regional rules. Strip v Downtown. Reno/Tahoe were different from Vegas. In Reno/Tahoe almost all single deck; double 10/11 only or 9/10/11. Hit 17. Rarely did you see DD or Shoes.
Downtown rules were single deck mostly. Main difference from what they called "Strip Rules" was they were H 17 v. Strip was always S 17. There were single decks and multi decks on the Strip but mainly single deck. Also you didn't see 6 deck or 8 deck until later. Believe it or not, there were 4 deck shoes. You could actually in old days find games on the strip that were positive EV because they allowed S 17, single deck, DAS, and resplit aces. Places varied on resplitting aces. But resplitting any other pairs wasn't an issue. Some didn't allow DAS on single deck. Most did allow DAS. No one had that 6-5 BS on Blackjack. This was before all the math analysis of today.
Surrender was rare but Caesars stood out as always offering it. They actually had a little token they gave you to put on top of your bet when you surrendered. Many then still didn't take advantage of it and you were ridiculed sometimes for being "chicken" by other players because you were giving up half your bet without "fighting".
There weren't side bets until later either. It was a BIG deal when over under 13 came out as a side bet.
Penetration was different also. The main concern was not running out of cards during a round. Sometimes it happened during single deck and they they just shuffled the remaining cards and finished the round/play. Then reshuffled the deck again for the next round. Also dealers would look at their remaining cards and guestimate sometimes as to whether or not they had enough cards to finish. Penetration on shoes was deeper than anyone who plays today has EVER seen.
Comps were a dream during those days. You could get RFB in a lot of places (other than expensive joints like Caesars) VERY easily. Green chip betting got it at places like The Dunes, Desert Inn, Tropicana that are no longer here. Shoot the Riviera would offer us cheap junkets to come and play including airfare for this action.
It would sure be nice to have those days back again!!! LOL
Thanks Jefe for reviving the thread.
Quote: MJGolfRockford, sorry..........wasn't a member here 7 years ago. LOL But it WAS an opportunity to remember just HOW MANY years I had been playing Blackjack and all the changes that had occurred during that time. =)
Thanks for the history and stories!
I wonder if any of those old casino “how to play” guides helped document a casino’s rules, or were the written from a generic standpoint?
When I began playing in Atlantic City, the H17 rule was just making it's way east. I think it began in Vegas at Caesars properties, someone can correct me if that is wrong. H17 increased the house edge by just under .2%. Doesn't sound like a lot, but for a 6 deck game with standard rules it was an increase of roughly 50% house edge to overcome.
Next came the despicable 6:5 bulls**t. That increased the house edge from about just over half percent to almost 2%. An advantage that for all practical purposes can't be overcome with traditional card counting (It can but requires an enormous bet spread). This was such a deviation, it shouldn't even be allowed to still be called blackjack (IMO).
There was also the introduction of shuffle machines, the ASM which at the time just eliminated the down time of shuffle. Not going to get into modern issues and capabilities with that. And the CSM, which for all intensive purposes eliminates card counting.
But for my money, for a card counter, perhaps the most devastating development has been the addition of all the different side bets. While a few of these are beatable, for the most part they just slow the game to a crawl, which for a traditional card counter can reduce expected win by as much as 75% if you get a few people playing several side bets every round.
Also shuffles used to be trackable because there were no such thing as ASM's. I agree with you on this; it sped up the game for dealers not having to shuffle but it made it impossible to shuffle track. It was humorous in the past because many casinos had their own "house shuffle" to discourage this practice.
The game has definitely changed for the worst for any AP or card counter in BJ. But if you are just a BS player or recreational player or a ploppy, NONE of these changes mattered a lick...................except the dastardly 6-5 payout on a BJ. I NEVER thought they would start doing that on SHOE games when it first came out. Man are the casinos GREEDY!!!!
Quote: MJGolfMan are the casinos GREEDY!!!!
WoW!, you said it all right there!
Unfortunately, the 6:5 bullsh*t falls on the players. Players, not just advantage players, but all players with half a brain should have rejected 6:5. Instead so many of us have seen instances where a 6:5 table is full right next to an empty 3:2 table. I just shake my head. It would be like roulette players opting for a table with 4 zeros, and the same odds. lol
Even if a 3:2 is a higher minimum, say $25, as opposed to a $10 or $15, 6:5 table, a player would lose less money playing the 3:2 than the 6:5. Try explaining it to them though. lol
That ante increased the house edge by 20 fold, from less than 1%, to 20%+, I couldn't believe how many people were playing and paying the ante. Crazy!
Basic math would be nice if it was exercised by "the playing public". I have even heard dealers say, 6-5 is "bigger" than 3-2. Geez, makes me want to hit them. LOL
Have heard players say, "well it's really NOT that big a difference is it?". Kiinda like the people who play in my state and pay the ante, "stating it's only 50 cents; no big deal".
Was it PT Barnum who said, "never underestimate the ignorance of the general public?" Probably a casino manager. LOL
I bet less than 20% of all players even know what the house edge is for the game they’re playing. And far less understand varianceQuote: kewljWoW!, you said it all right there!
Unfortunately, the 6:5 bullsh*t falls on the players. Players, not just advantage players, but all players with half a brain should have rejected 6:5. Instead so many of us have seen instances where a 6:5 table is full right next to an empty 3:2 table. I just shake my head. It would be like roulette players opting for a table with 4 zeros, and the same odds. lol
Even if a 3:2 is a higher minimum, say $25, as opposed to a $10 or $15, 6:5 table, a player would lose less money playing the 3:2 than the 6:5. Try explaining it to them though. lol
True, a $25 3:2 game will have a lower absolute house edge than a $10 6:5 game, but the variance is still 2.5 times higher so you’ll need 2.5 times the bankroll. On low edge games like BJ or craps, the expected loss is extremely low, even over the course of a weekend. It’s the variance that determines your betting level
Quote: kewljSo I know you guys are focused on distant history, long before my time, but I want to comment on worsening conditions and rules during my time playing blackjack (2004 until now).
When I began playing in Atlantic City, the H17 rule was just making it's way east. I think it began in Vegas at Caesars properties, someone can correct me if that is wrong. H17 increased the house edge by just under .2%. Doesn't sound like a lot, but for a 6 deck game with standard rules it was an increase of roughly 50% house edge to overcome.
Next came the despicable 6:5 bulls**t. That increased the house edge from about just over half percent to almost 2%. An advantage that for all practical purposes can't be overcome with traditional card counting (It can but requires an enormous bet spread). This was such a deviation, it shouldn't even be allowed to still be called blackjack (IMO).
There was also the introduction of shuffle machines, the ASM which at the time just eliminated the down time of shuffle. Not going to get into modern issues and capabilities with that. And the CSM, which for all intensive purposes eliminates card counting.
KJ..........In reminiscing, since I did start playing before you moved to Vegas, I remember that casinos have changed also in comportment. My Dad, who loved to play cards, but was more a poker player than a BJ player............ introduced me to the game, and first gave me a little money to play in the Bahamas, before I was old enough to play here (18 v 21) There the casinos were open mainly at night I believe and everyone (or everyone to MY recollection) DRESSED up to play. Actually wore a sport coat to play. But definitely $5 table minimums and no 8 deck shoes back then.
And not that long ago..............well over 20 years ago, now.............LOL Tunica was a very good place to play for low limit players. I brought my girlfriend's younger brother there with me one trip to play. I played the $5, $10 or $15 tables. There was still at least one a $1 table in the casinos. I'm sure the dealers HATED dealing with the "silver" coins. I think table limits were $3 minimum bets. He loved it but it was like watching grass grow to me. It's all perspective and the passage of time. But getting RFB was like royalty treatment to him. He could NOT believe they paid for our room, food and his beer...............and man, did he down some BEER!!!
Single deck; some casinos going to 2 and 4 deck shoes.
3/2 Blackjack (of course).
S 17 ("some" casinos H 17)
Split any card ("on again, off again" rule against splitting aces).
No resplits.
DAS - no doubling on split aces. ("Temporary rule" allowing doubling on hard 11 only.)
No mention of surrender.
Playing conditions HAVE changed. Rules have changed. And in my estimation, NONE for the better. Every time I go to a casino, they remove some thing or rule, that used to be "friendly". Getting rid of Surrender. Quit allowing RSA. Quit hand held hand dealt games. Man, this game is nothing what I used to play; almost unrecognizable. I think that houses are apparently using this pandemic to remove any player favorable rules whatsoever. I just had a decent night playing but MAN were the changes frustrating. These rules were changed from just before "pandemic" to reopening.
I won't name the casino, but it USED to be the best place in Oklahoma to play BJ by far in my opinion considering all factors.
Let's call it a strange coincedence. The worst two months ever by far in the single deck straight up game. It couldn't be worse if I was trying to lose.
Is LV Bear out there?
I know that, and you know that, but tell Joe Ploppy Who Thinks Counting Beats Everything (And It Must Be True Because They Saw It On The Simpsons And The Show Predicted That Trump Would Be President) that.Quote: kewljNext came the despicable 6:5 bulls**t. That increased the house edge from about just over half percent to almost 2%. An advantage that for all practical purposes can't be overcome with traditional card counting (It can but requires an enormous bet spread).
The grammar cop in me would like to know if you would you mind too much if I quoted this in the "pet peeves" thread. It's, "For all intents and purposes."Quote: kewljAnd the CSM, which for all intensive purposes eliminates card counting.
Quote: mosesMany things have changed since returning from covid. Perhaps the most subtle change is the player can no longer touch the cards. As a result, the dealer always knows my hand.
Let's call it a strange coincedence. The worst two months ever by far in the single deck straight up game. It couldn't be worse if I was trying to lose.
Is LV Bear out there?
Moses, good to see you have survived covid (actual covid, not covid related changes). I am responding to your post in the hopes that you and I can put the past behind us and move forward. I always welcome and look forward to a little more blackjack discussion, so maybe we can achieve that.
I don't mean to start on a negative or challenging note, but I don't see how the change from cards face down to face up changes anything. You are still going to stand, hit, double down just the same and the dealer is still going to play out his hand just the same, by set rules of hitting 16 and below and standing 17 and above. So why would this change effect your winning and losing?
I'm not suggesting cheating. However, I read about dealing seconds etc. etc. If it ever happens? I can't see it. Sometimes there is a fumbling of the cards...too often for some dealers.
Quote: ThatDonGuy
The grammar cop in me would like to know if you would you mind too much if I quoted this in the "pet peeves" thread. It's, "For all intents and purposes."
All's I know...
Quote: mosesMany things have changed since returning from covid. Perhaps the most subtle change is the player can no longer touch the cards. As a result, the dealer always knows my hand.
...is that where I play the cards have always been dealt face up. Touching the cards has always been something that I subconsciously flinch at since it's not the way I was brought up.
Face-down games take longer as the dealer has to flip the cards face up as he moves from hand to hand. Doubling and splitting takes longer for the same reason, as well as payouts. Fewer hands per hour, all other things being equal.
Card counting is more difficult since you don't learn the value of the face-down cards until they get exposed. In a single deck game those cards constitute a significant portion of the cards already played, which matters when you are playing last. Those cards can determine what you do, but in a face-down game you may not know what they are.
Playing face up, one-on-one with a really good dealer who knows the rules and sees that you are following them all the time and as a result can deal the cards as fast as you can see them?
Nothing better. Which cannot be done in a face-down game.
Quote: mosesExactly my thought. But the change is more than just variance. I mean I can't win a hand. It's "down goes Frazier before the 3rd deck is played."
I'm not suggesting cheating. However, I read about dealing seconds etc. etc. If it ever happens? I can't see it. Sometimes there is a fumbling off the cards...too often for some dealers.
I would argue that it MAY just be variance. BUT I would want to rule out cheating. There is nothing wrong with proactively being on the look out for cheating and when you are uncomfortable about play, trying to rule that out.
I too had a rough post covid go of it. When casino re-opened, I decided to bump up in stakes. Usually the stakes I played is determined by what I have determined is well tolerated by each casino and each situation. With all that was going on post covid, I thought it would be the perfect time to bump up in stakes as casino personnel would be busy with new covid related responsivities and duties and this would allow me to increase and make up for lost EV. And that part worked well.
What didn't work well, was that just as I increased, I started losing. Big time. Nearly 30k, at one casino at a "point just south" < lol, of the strip. So much so that my first reaction was that I was being cheated and I even started screaming that right here on this forum.
Well, a little investigating and making myself available to watch the opening of tables, plus some continuing play in which I was able to win a little of that money back, convinced me that I had panicked and jumped to the wrong conclusion. Negative variance had just hit and crushed me just as I increased stakes. And being the smaller sample size of this covid year, that resulted in my worst year of 12 in Las Vegas. A slightly winning year still, but far below expectation. It was just in fact variance.
Now you and I have had "discussions" about variance. You playing single deck have not experienced the kind of variance I have. Maybe, just maybe it caught up to you at this unusual time, But that said, you should so what you can to rule out cheating.
personally, I have never liked the handheld games because of the possibilities of dealing seconds and such. It also isn't what I learned in Atlantic Cities, so I have always gravitated towards the shoe games. Even most double deck games that I play are dealt from a shoe, although I do play a few handheld. But if for whatever reason, imaginary or real, I am uncomfortable with some results, I stop playing that game until I can prove or convince myself it is all good.
Bottom line, what your talking about, several months post covid is a small sample size. Don't let your mind "trick" you into believing it is something that it isn't. But for sure, investigate to rule anything out.
Hopefully a better and more normal 2021 for us all.
Quote: fantom
Playing face up, one-on-one with a really good dealer who knows the rules and sees that you are following them all the time and as a result can deal the cards as fast as you can see them?
Yes...sir...rooney. THIS is the jackpot of card counting. Fast dealer, heads up and especially with a 6 deck shoe game where if the count goes positive early, you might get 30-40 rounds with you max bet out.
Boy, I had a shoe back in 2011 that I wrote about. Not going to repeat the story, but boy, oh boy! At the time I speculated I would never experience anything close and now 10 years later....I still haven't.
I expected the bimbo replacing him to ruin the karma and be a "dumb blonde" (brunette, actually...) who would be inept. Surprisingly, she was as good as he was, if not a little better. Except for the obvious and intentional distraction that was how she looked and was dressed. Absolutely gorgeous, perky (if you know what I mean...) and very bright. The speed continued, but my luck did not, convinced, I am, that my mind wandered to far from the true count.
During a shuffle I asked her, essentially, why she was dancing in a casino when she obviously had so much on the ball - why not just deal, or do something else less demeaning. Turns out she was pre-law at UNLV and because of her looks and brains she was able to get a job for which she was doubly qualified. Having both talents, one visual and the other not, put her in demand for all the hours she wanted.
I'm not sure I can ignore that kind of dealer as much I as tend to uniformly ignore the dealer and the other players at the table normally. Cocktail waitresses can have the same effect - I'm only human - but at least they come around seldom enough to not effect the business.
Quote: fantom
I'm not sure I can ignore that kind of dealer as much I as tend to uniformly ignore the dealer and the other players at the table normally. Cocktail waitresses can have the same effect - I'm only human - but at least they come around seldom enough to not effect the business.
Pretty dealers. Dancing girls in the pits. Pretty scantily dressed cocktail waitresses.
I have never been distracted. To quote Forrest Gump "and that is all I am going to say about that". LOL.
BUT, that is clearly the casinos intent. On this one, I guess I out "foxed" them. :)
The goal was 20 sessions per week and win 4 more than I lose. Very doable. And confirmed with CV Data Sims. But I would stop playing once bills were paid for the month.
The months leading up to covid was 77 wins 61 loss 42 ties 94 interruptions. The glaring number was the interruptions.
So I upped my game in June to requesting a $50 table. 4 wins 13 losses 4 ties and 6 interruptions. I was playing under a microscope and suffering the worst month ever losing $4,663.
I waited until January. It wasn't comfortable playing with all the stuff going on. I continued to study and work on my game as usual. I dropped
back to $25 tables because requesting $50 seemed to create unrest. 1 win 10 losses 2 ties and 4 Interruptions.
The two months combined resulted in a loss of $7500. The alarming stat is in just 2300 hands. I don't chase.
That's an average of $3 per hand. I compete hard to make $1 per hand.
So I will put the ball back in your court. Is this variance?
Also, I constantly break with 12. Dealers outperforms me with blackjack about 8 to 1.
Bottom line is I still have to make the first move.
Prior covid, dealer didn't know if I had a 20 Or 16. Now they know. If I hit? Im dealt a ten and break. If I double? I get a low card. When a dealer hits? The make the hand without breaking.
Other than that, I will say this. I am not really the expert about variance, and just how unusual a set of results is, often referred to as standard deviations away from expectation. This is (t)Eliot's and Wizard's (and a few other's) wheelhouse. You can also look to the software to help you understand.
That said, much of my understanding and let's say "views" on variance have come from my own experiences. I would hit a losing period or negative run, like you just described, sometimes lasting months, down 10's of thousands of dollars and I would literally be screaming to myself "Oh come on....what the ****?" Then you run the numbers and it is not as unlikely as you might think, 2.5, 3 standard deviations away, which is unusual, but not like, this can't be type unusual.
You go through that a few times and come out the other side and you start to get a feel for the extreme variance that can occur. And you know what is really funny? When I have been running extremely good, on one of those tears where I seem to win ALMOST every day, seem to win most Max bets and double downs. Blackjacks are just falling to me when I have my max bet out, I NEVER find myself saying :Oh come on this just can't be". lol
Just some thoughts. I mean if it is working for you, who am I to say, it shouldn't be working.
(and before anyone here jumps on me comparing that comment to a different situation, remember the low bar: The math has to work}. Moses IS playing with an advantage, unlike that other discussion.
Like you, I'm looking for a fair game. Unlike you, I only play straight up. The primary reason for this is the card that breaks my hand is often the card that starts my next hand.
LV Bear wrote an article way back about what constitutes a fair game vs unfair game. A dealer only going 5 rounds in a straight up game of single deck is not a fair game. So an interrupted session is when a fair game becomes unfair. Maybe several people sit down to play. Maybe a dealer switch goes from one offering 7 rounds to one offering 5 rounds.
6 rounds is my head scratcher. The difference in SCORE for cut card and rounds triples for cut card or rounds. So, because the number of places I can play is minimal and now almost nil, I'm thinking I can no longer take the risk of just a 6 round game. That would be my question to LV Bear.
You were spot on about the number of places no longer offering 3.2 blackjack after covid. How did you know?
Quote: HunterhillJust taking a guess but I think when he says interrupted he means another player or players join the table . I think he likes to play alone .
Is that what it is? Don't know why that would matter.
All I kept thinking was a few times, not many but every once in a while, when I am playing and drawing heat and there is a fast approaching backoff on the horizon, I tend to exit if I can before that final act. I mean THAT is an interrupted session. lol
. I just for a second thought this was a serious post until you got me with ‘dealer outperforms me with blackjack about 8-1.’ In 2300 hands both the dealer and player would be expected to get around 100 blackjacks. Are you saying the dealer got like 120 to your 15? I’m guessing that likelihood is like rolling 18..... never mind....Quote: mosesMy mind may well be playing tricks on me. For over a decade, blackjack supplied an income that paid my bills. I don't have many bills.
The goal was 20 sessions per week and win 4 more than I lose. Very doable. And confirmed with CV Data Sims. But I would stop playing once bills were paid for the month.
The months leading up to covid was 77 wins 61 loss 42 ties 94 interruptions. The glaring number was the interruptions.
So I upped my game in June to requesting a $50 table. 4 wins 13 losses 4 ties and 6 interruptions. I was playing under a microscope and suffering the worst month ever losing $4,663.
I waited until January. It wasn't comfortable playing with all the stuff going on. I continued to study and work on my game as usual. I dropped
back to $25 tables because requesting $50 seemed to create unrest. 1 win 10 losses 2 ties and 4 Interruptions.
The two months combined resulted in a loss of $7500. The alarming stat is in just 2300 hands. I don't chase.
That's an average of $3 per hand. I compete hard to make $1 per hand.
So I will put the ball back in your court. Is this variance?
Also, I constantly break with 12. Dealers outperforms me with blackjack about 8 to 1.
Bottom line is I still have to make the first move.
Prior covid, dealer didn't know if I had a 20 Or 16. Now they know. If I hit? Im dealt a ten and break. If I double? I get a low card. When a dealer hits? The make the hand without breaking.
Quote: moses
You were spot on about the number of places no longer offering 3.2 blackjack after covid. How did you know?
Really? Reno has gone all or mostly 6:5? I am sorry to hear that but not surprised. Is this just for single deck or other games as well? Has there been a reduction in your single deck games and a move towards shoe game? (6 deck or double)
I have thought Reno would move away from Single deck 3:2 long before Covid came to be. It is just that Reno is the last place to offer that. a few other small towns in Nevada, but no where else. It is sort of a dinosaur. Why wouldn't they move to either 6:5 or just away from single deck like everyone else. Higher house edges.
One answer would be that is what made Reno novel, so they hung on for longer than expected. But eventually that casino mentality comes about as to what can we do to increase house edge. Covid probably just provided the cover to do it, to make up for lost revenue.
Here in Vegas, what we are seeing is more of the stadium blackjack type games. That is where there is one live dealer and anywhere from 20 to 50 (maybe 100 in Pa) individual terminals. All of the Station casinos installed it. Players aren't really gravitating towards it yet, but that is because the casinos remain empty. Once things get back to normal they will be able to raise limits on the real tables, doing away with anything under $25, or $50, sending all the lower level players to the stadium blackjack, which is continuous shuffle machine.
Quote: SOOPOO. I just for a second thought this was a serious post until you got me with ‘dealer outperforms me with blackjack about 8-1.’ In 2300 hands both the dealer and player would be expected to get around 100 blackjacks. Are you saying the dealer got like 120 to your 15? I’m guessing that likelihood is like rolling 18..... never mind....
I really think this is the kind of thing where selective memory comes into play. And that is not a poke at Moses. It happens to all of us. Things just seem to be worse or occur more than they really do. If you could go back and hit "replay", you could see that. This is particularly strong when things are running bad.
Quote: kewlj
Here in Vegas, what we are seeing is more of the stadium blackjack type games... doing away with anything under $25, or $50, sending all the lower level players to the stadium blackjack
Do you think that this trend will also mean more scrutiny of the remaining live tables? I have avoided anything more than $15 because 1) $25 is too high a start for my purposes, especially whe the count rises to +4, which is when you REALLY want to be out there, and 2) I assume there is more heat at a $25 or $50 table. But if $25 is the new $10, then will the heat be less since it's the new "low-roller table?"
Also, since you are a regular player -
My guess is that technology will sooner or later make counting impossible. No longer are there catwalks and binoculars. Cameras are so cheap that there can be one pointed at every individual seat, and video surveillance cameras can probably record every bet and correlate it to the count, flagging any even slightly counter-like programatically. If your play is flagged such that a real human is notified about it, well, your day or career is over.
Quote: fantomDo you think that this trend will also mean more scrutiny of the remaining live tables? I have avoided anything more than $15 because 1) $25 is too high a start for my purposes, especially whe the count rises to +4, which is when you REALLY want to be out there, and 2) I assume there is more heat at a $25 or $50 table. But if $25 is the new $10, then will the heat be less since it's the new "low-roller table?"
I don't know. I guess time will tell.
Quote: fantomAlso, since you are a regular player -
My guess is that technology will sooner or later make counting impossible. No longer are there catwalks and binoculars. Cameras are so cheap that there can be one pointed at every individual seat, and video surveillance cameras can probably record every bet and correlate it to the count, flagging any even slightly counter-like programatically. If your play is flagged such that a real human is notified about it, well, your day or career is over.
Thank you for that ,lovely thought about my career being over. lol You know players have been thinking since the 1960's that card counting opportunities would end, first with all the books, and lately with the advances in technology working against us, including not only surveillance but the databases and companies that just work THAT angle. We will see how it plays out. I think we have SOME time left. For now, I am just happy we have a little blackjack discussion. Isn't this nice and unexpected. :)
And if and or when it comes to an end, I will have had a good run, and move on to the next thing, whether that be something in advantage play or something completely unrelated.
Downtown is almost non existent now. I think Silver Legacy offers 3.2 but at 5 rounds. El Dorado made the most drastic changes after covid. Harrahs is gone. Circus no longer plays. GSR, Atlantis, and Peppermill offer 3.2 single decks. Not sure about the smaller places. Some stopped altogether.
Quote: kewlj
You playing single deck have not experienced the kind of variance I have. Maybe, just maybe it caught up to you at this unusual time, But that said, you should so what you can to rule out cheating
personally, I have never liked the handheld games because of the possibilities of dealing seconds and such. It also isn't what I learned in Atlantic Cities, so I have always gravitated towards the shoe games. Even most double deck games that I play are dealt from a shoe, although I do play a few handheld. But if for whatever reason, imaginary or real, I am uncomfortable with some results, I stop playing that game until I can prove or convince myself it is all.. [/
Dealing seconds is dealing the second card from the top. If the dealer is expert (and I know one former dealer who is and did some demos for me outside the casino) it is impossible to spot by watching his hands. The way to tell is my the sound of the cards being dealt. There is a distinct sound when dealing a second (a click of sorts) vs. the top card. Another clue is watch how he holds the deck. At some point, he will tilt the cards and very subtlety slide edge of the second card out so he can read its index.
I haven't checked, but as just about everything can be found there, there are likely some youtube videos demonstrating this.
