21+3 SIDEBET MINIMUM BET HELP?

DOes anybody know what the advantage for a casino would be to dissallow a sidebet on the 21+3 game of less than $5. If I recall correctly the payout was SF 30:1 3K 20:1 S12:1 F9:1 and it was a six deck game. It did not matter what the table minimum was even at a $5 table the minimum was $5 and at a $25 table it was also $5. If the advantage is to the house why would they dissallow the standard 1$ bet minimum for a sidebet?

Because they can !

wouldnt they be loosing potential ACTION?

WOULDNT THEY BE LOOSING ACTION BY GREATLY LIMITING THE NUMBER OF TIMES PEOPLE CHOOSE TO PLAY IT?

Evidently not. Just depends on how dumb the players are. And they usually are quite DUMB !

They might be disallowing it because it's not worth the house's effort to pay bets less than $5. Side bets do slow the game down.

And if that's really what the paytable is (doubt it), you should hammer it hard because that yields a 16.2% player advantage!

The most common "21+3 Extreme" is usually with these crap payouts:

Straight flush 30 to 1
Three of a kind 20 to 1
Straight 10 to 1
Flush 5 to 1

The poorer flush/straight payouts versus in the original post make this side bet have a 13.39% house edge.

that is probably correct. i did not remember exactly because the casino made it too expensive to even think of playing it. Regardless, I am not sure why the casino wouldthen allow me to make the bet for the dealer but not myself at the $1 minimum bet.

Quote: bjrulehound

that is probably correct. i did not remember exactly because the casino made it too expensive to even think of playing it. Regardless, I am not sure why the casino wouldthen allow me to make the bet for the dealer but not myself at the $1 minimum bet.

Tips are always excluded in this rule. Many low stakes players will never tip a dealer a red for a wager. Increasing employees' pay should always overrule the house's bottom line, in my opinion.

The $5 minimum on this bet (and its house edge) keeps me away as well, and I try to avoid playing on tables that offer it since people will often point out when you hit a winning hand. 21+3 is popular enough among most players to require a $5 minimum in most places.

Smart casino bosses (I know, that's an oxymoron) know sidebets slow down the game. Slow game = less revenue. Some bean counter probably analyzed the house EV vs game speed, and game speed with and without sidebet. $5 sidebet is probably the break-even point for house EV, where the decreased revenue from the slower game is offset by the higher house edge of the side bet.

Quote: tringlomane

Side bets do slow the game down.

That's true. Players need to bet a certain amount on the side bet for the expected win to offset the loss in the main game due to fewer hands per hour. At $5, the table would likely make less money than if the players didn't bet it at all.

Interesting side note. At work we have recently taken out a standard 21+3 table and replaced it with a table that has both 21+3 and perfect pair side bets. The hands per hour has decreased significantly, but the hold percentage has improved. God bless suckers.

To me the problem with $5 min. on 21+3 is that you have such a low hit rate (sub 10%).

You don't hear the same complaint on Pair Plus in 3CP, because with a 25.3% hit rate, the variance impact on your bankroll is not nearly as dramatic playing $5 on PP and Ante/Play as playing $5 on 21+3 with a $5 min BJ bet. Losing 9 out of 10 hands in 21+3 at $5 a pop puts a serious dent in a player bankroll when they sit down to play some $5 BJ with $100 to start.

Isn't Trips bet in UTH normally a $5 minimum as well. It has just over a 15% hit rate and can be brutal at times. I counted once and went 18 hands without hitting the pay table. But it should hit just under every 7 hands and that to me is about the outside limit on a $5 min bet.

Would you be as opposed to playing a BJ side bet with a $5 min. and a 17% - 23% hit rate? Arguably the side bet with that hit rate would likely not have a potential payout greater than 20-1 or 30-1 and most pays would be in the 2-1 to 5-1 range.

It is a different philosophy to the BJ side bet, frequent pays, no home runs and a HE in the 3%-5% range.

House Money by SHFL is a bit like this. HM was not a $5 min game when I played it at Fiesta Henderson, but I have to say, playing for $1 and winning 1-1 or 3-1 and then capping your $2 or $4 on to your main $5 BJ bet didn't do a lot for me. You need to play $5, get a 10/Jack or pair of face cards against a dealer 8 and then be able to stack the $10 or $20 on top of your $5 min BJ wager for a $25 bet with a hand already locked in at 20 vs. that same dealer 8 upcard. That made the game exciting and with a hit rate of 23% and a house edge of 2.79% (per WoO), the bankroll can handle the $5 minimum.

I think that is the future of BJ side bets and the "$1 and a prayer" side bets are going to be the exception vs. the rule. Actually having one of each type on the table may make sense, but talk about slowing down the game! Imagine a table with Royal Match and House Money and players playing both side bets. That would be one way to keep the AP's away....the pace of the game would slow to a crawl ;-).

While it is true that the side bets slow down the game, I would argue that the choice should be left to the casino depending on their customer volume levels. If they are operating a smaller house with a smaller customer base, having a high rate of hands per hour could actually be considered a "negative" for them.

My argument would be that if the casino struggles to maintain head counts on their table games anyway, keeping the players on the table for a longer period is beneficial in that it keeps the head-counts higher. Most players will turn around and walk away if they enter a casino that looks dead when they walk in. Therefore a casino might opt to have a $1 side bet minimum wager for that purpose alone. Plus, like Paradigm said, after a few rounds of playing $1 and not feeling the excitement, most players will bump up the wagers anyway. By putting it at $1, you may entice some people to try it out in the first place too, when they normally might be intimidated by a full $5 (assuming that they find $5 to be a little "steep" for them anyway).

If the casino constantly has full tables and a waiting list to get a seat, then by all means you would want a higher minimum wager on the side-bets.

What are the different pay tables for 21+3 Xtreme? Which is the most player-favorable one that is actually in casinos?

Quote: teliot

What are the different pay tables for 21+3 Xtreme? Which is the most player-favorable one that is actually in casinos?

I have yet to see any paytable other than this one:

Straight Flush 30 to 1
Three of a Kind 20 to 1
Straight 10 to 1
Flush 5 to 1

House edge: 6-deck: 13.39%; 8-deck: 12.89%

miplet made some interesting "near miss" calculations in this thread on page 2:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/12745-house-edge-on-new-21-3-table/

Thanks Tringlomane, I was going to run some AP numbers on this, but it looks hopeless so I'll pass.

They installed this bet at Horseshoe Bossier this week. I wondered how bad it is. Thanks tringlomane. I did see a woman get lucky and hit the straight flush twice in about 5 hands.

Quote: 10DollarBri

I did see a woman get lucky and hit the straight flush twice in about 5 hands.

But that will definitely help keep the game afloat, even with the higher edge. The ploppies will remember that and generally ignore losing $5-$10 at a time. :)

Quote: tringlomane

I have yet to see any paytable other than this one:

Straight Flush 30 to 1
Three of a Kind 20 to 1
Straight 10 to 1
Flush 5 to 1

House edge: 6-deck: 13.39%; 8-deck: 12.89%

miplet made some interesting "near miss" calculations in this thread on page 2:

Why, when every other game that has a 3 card component (3CP, LIR, PGM, etc) uses 40/30/6/4or3 paytables, did this go in with a different paytable? I would think that anybody who likes carnival games would find this confusing if not suspicious. Is it because there's no 1:1 for pairs (and why isn't that there as well)? Or just greed? Thanks, folks!

It's because 3 card poker is a is single deck game and 21 +3 uses multi decks which means its easier to make flushes and trips.