Borgata Policies
January 6th, 2013 at 4:30:26 PM
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After reading a few threads here regarding Borgata and some of their odd policies, I think I have another anomaly to add to their repetoire.
Was there on Friday, and tables were mostly full. So I had to play at a wheelchair accesible table that had one open spot. After about two hours, a mentally challenged young man in a wheelchair came to the table. He was by himself, had no nurse, caretaker or family member with him to help. He could not speak, just kind of laughed like an infant and his arms were flailing around wildly, meaning he could not use them fully and had trouble keeping still in his chair.
But the dealer let him play, after he flung $100 bill at her. He was unable to place his chips in the betting circle and knocked over his chip stack a few times. The lady next to him, who had been there for over an hour, was kindly helping him re-stack his chips and place his bets. Yet the first 3 hands the dealer got when he sat down were 20, Blackjack and BJ again! So clearly the Gambling Gods have no sympathy for handicap people. I took that as a sign to take a break and went to eat.
My question is, is it right for Borgata(or any casino) to let a mentally challenged person gamble with other patrons, when it is clearly a distraction and potentially a safety risk? If they disallow overly intoxicated people to wager money due to diminished capacity, is this situation really that much different?
Obviously there are legalities at stake here, and I understand that every person 21 and older has the right to patron a casino in the US. But I find it irresponsible on the part of the casino that they wouldn't make a special arrangement for someone with special needs and would just let them join a table of their own valition. They reserve tables for higher rollers, why not give this young man his own table where a dealer and pit boss can can cater just to him at his own pace?
Was there on Friday, and tables were mostly full. So I had to play at a wheelchair accesible table that had one open spot. After about two hours, a mentally challenged young man in a wheelchair came to the table. He was by himself, had no nurse, caretaker or family member with him to help. He could not speak, just kind of laughed like an infant and his arms were flailing around wildly, meaning he could not use them fully and had trouble keeping still in his chair.
But the dealer let him play, after he flung $100 bill at her. He was unable to place his chips in the betting circle and knocked over his chip stack a few times. The lady next to him, who had been there for over an hour, was kindly helping him re-stack his chips and place his bets. Yet the first 3 hands the dealer got when he sat down were 20, Blackjack and BJ again! So clearly the Gambling Gods have no sympathy for handicap people. I took that as a sign to take a break and went to eat.
My question is, is it right for Borgata(or any casino) to let a mentally challenged person gamble with other patrons, when it is clearly a distraction and potentially a safety risk? If they disallow overly intoxicated people to wager money due to diminished capacity, is this situation really that much different?
Obviously there are legalities at stake here, and I understand that every person 21 and older has the right to patron a casino in the US. But I find it irresponsible on the part of the casino that they wouldn't make a special arrangement for someone with special needs and would just let them join a table of their own valition. They reserve tables for higher rollers, why not give this young man his own table where a dealer and pit boss can can cater just to him at his own pace?
January 6th, 2013 at 4:49:36 PM
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I think the only reason that would be reasonable to exclude him would be the safety risk. I would guess that there was no real safety risk present.
I also question the level of his mental incapacity. It could be all of his problems were physical, and he had full mental capacity just physically was unable to express those capacities. Even if you were correct and he had diminished mental capacity, if that were a criterion for casino exclusion, would you have to remove any player who sat at a 6:5 table? Or played roulette?
I also question the level of his mental incapacity. It could be all of his problems were physical, and he had full mental capacity just physically was unable to express those capacities. Even if you were correct and he had diminished mental capacity, if that were a criterion for casino exclusion, would you have to remove any player who sat at a 6:5 table? Or played roulette?
January 6th, 2013 at 4:56:05 PM
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I believe there are a lot of laws that businesses have to abide by, in making their facilities wheelchair accessible, and accessible to the disabled.
And we shouldn't confuse a disabled person, even an intellectually-challanged person, with an intoxicated person.
And we shouldn't confuse a disabled person, even an intellectually-challanged person, with an intoxicated person.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
January 6th, 2013 at 5:16:22 PM
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deleted
Last edited by: sodawater on Oct 1, 2018
January 6th, 2013 at 5:19:57 PM
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The 6/5 analogy says it all.
January 6th, 2013 at 6:02:24 PM
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Quote: BozThe 6/5 analogy says it all.
Pretty sure the people who play at 6:5 BJ table aren't flailing their arms uncontrollably or laughing at inappropriate times loudly. Not that there's anything he can do about it, but it does become a safety issue for both him and the people sitting beside him.
My concern was his physical limitations, based on his inability to place the chips in the betting circle or even maintain control of his chip stack. Not to mention he would not be able to give proper hand signals, nor verbalize his intent to "Hit" or "Stand".
Just seems like a potential problem that the casino could avoid by giving him his own table or section to play in at his own pace.
January 6th, 2013 at 6:25:11 PM
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If he's truly mentally disabled, my only concern would be that they are taking advantage of him. I don't know what the legalities about this are, but is he legally able to enter into a contract? It seems that placing a bet is no different than entering into a contract.
Having said that, there's something I don't understand about this story. If he can't speak and he doesn't have control over his arms, how can he play blackjack? If he can't move his chips into the circle, how did he signify how much he wants to bet? If his arms were waving uncontrollably, how did he signal his playing decisions?
Having said that, there's something I don't understand about this story. If he can't speak and he doesn't have control over his arms, how can he play blackjack? If he can't move his chips into the circle, how did he signify how much he wants to bet? If his arms were waving uncontrollably, how did he signal his playing decisions?
January 6th, 2013 at 6:34:45 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIf he's truly mentally disabled, my only concern would be that they are taking advantage of him. I don't know what the legalities about this are, but is he legally able to enter into a contract? It seems that placing a bet is no different than entering into a contract.
Having said that, there's something I don't understand about this story. If he can't speak and he doesn't have control over his arms, how can he play blackjack? If he can't move his chips into the circle, how did he signify how much he wants to bet? If his arms were waving uncontrollably, how did he signal his playing decisions?
Exactly, from what I saw in the 3 hands I sat with him, he must have been there before and they knew his playing habits.
The dealer had 20(against his 17) and 2 Aces that were Blackjacks, so the decision making was limited to Stand and "Insurance"?
The dealer presumed he would stay on 20 and not buy insurance I suppose. I left after the dealer's second BJ in 3 hands, so I have no other situations to present.
As for the betting, again they're assuming he wants to play the minimum of $15 and not raise. Probably based on previous visits.
So like I said, it was a bit of a distraction and seemed irresponsible on Borgata's part by just assuming all his plays for him and allowing him to join a live table when his decision making abilities were extremely limited.
January 6th, 2013 at 7:16:35 PM
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Casinos barely abide by actual law, let alone moral law.
January 6th, 2013 at 7:19:54 PM
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I stick with the 6/5 deal. If he is able to travel to a casino and has no one responsible for him,where do you draw the line?
Otherwise i just you take the ATM'S out?
Do you eliminate 85 percent slots?
And so on.......
I understand your point, and do not like the house....but I know how they operate and accept their rules when I play.
Otherwise i just you take the ATM'S out?
Do you eliminate 85 percent slots?
And so on.......
I understand your point, and do not like the house....but I know how they operate and accept their rules when I play.
January 6th, 2013 at 7:21:51 PM
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I worked at Eureka casino in Blackhawk in 1990. Had a blind couple as regulars. They both liked machines with cherries on them.
Would help set them up at a machine and they would lean against machine to hear wheels click. All machines were coin droppers back then.
Would help set them up at a machine and they would lean against machine to hear wheels click. All machines were coin droppers back then.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
January 6th, 2013 at 7:43:12 PM
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Quote: BedWetterBetterSo like I said, it was a bit of a distraction and seemed irresponsible on Borgata's part by just assuming all his plays for him and allowing him to join a live table when his decision making abilities were extremely limited.
Are you sure it wasn't more of a distraction ***TO YOU*** because you somehow felt that you shouldn't have to "put up" having to play with his kind?
January 6th, 2013 at 8:13:02 PM
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I don't believe this happened, sorry.
A falling knife has no handle.
January 6th, 2013 at 8:38:07 PM
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At least I'm not the only one...
January 7th, 2013 at 2:14:57 PM
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Quote: MoscaI don't believe this happened, sorry.
I believe him, BWB identified the date, the casino and the table. The only way he could have been more specific was to have given a general time, nearest hour, something like that. It's a long shot, but would you risk being humiliated if it turned out there was someone from here at that casino at that time who says, "That's a heap of bull****, I was at the next table over."
I wouldn't, I've made mistakes (Math) here before and that's one thing, and accidental, but I would never lie to you guys about an event. I consider all of you my kindred brethren all forever pursuing the same temptress who occasionally accepts our advances lovingly, yet shuns us at other times.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
January 7th, 2013 at 2:56:19 PM
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Perhaps the gentleman, handicapped as the case may be, was looking for the social aspect of the game as well. Although his physical limitations were clear, we do not know if he had any mental limitations. Perhaps he seeks out a casino to sit at a table amongst fellow players and, even if he cannot converse with them as he might wish, still enjoy the banter and camaradarie that comes from a good, social blackjack table. If this was his intent, then I commend him for getting out there, despite a handicap, and doing what he can...I would welcome him at my table any time.
January 7th, 2013 at 4:17:25 PM
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Maybe he is a card counter with a better act than yours :)
January 7th, 2013 at 4:30:24 PM
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Quote: Mission146I believe him, BWB identified the date, the casino and the table. The only way he could have been more specific was to have given a general time, nearest hour, something like that. It's a long shot, but would you risk being humiliated if it turned out there was someone from here at that casino at that time who says, "That's a heap of bull****, I was at the next table over."
I wouldn't, I've made mistakes (Math) here before and that's one thing, and accidental, but I would never lie to you guys about an event. I consider all of you my kindred brethren all forever pursuing the same temptress who occasionally accepts our advances lovingly, yet shuns us at other times.
There are several sets of tables at Borgata. Regardless, if it's true I'm sure the Americans With Disabilities Act has something to do with it. He might be a Stephen Hawking type, but a lawyer instead of a physicist. Who knows.
A falling knife has no handle.
January 7th, 2013 at 4:40:44 PM
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Well, yeah, that is the thing. If his disability is purely physical, then certainly the casino should cater to his needs. However, if it's mental as well, I would have a moral problem with it.
It's actually an interesting question. On one hand, if gambling is entertainment, someone who is mentally handicapped should have every right to enjoy that entertainment just as much as we do. On the other hand, if his handicap precludes him from understanding the value of money or the fact that the odds are stacked against him, it seems that he should be protected. You wouldn't stop someone with a mental handicap from paying $10 to enjoy a movie, but $10 to enjoy a hand of blackjack seems worse, somehow.
It's actually an interesting question. On one hand, if gambling is entertainment, someone who is mentally handicapped should have every right to enjoy that entertainment just as much as we do. On the other hand, if his handicap precludes him from understanding the value of money or the fact that the odds are stacked against him, it seems that he should be protected. You wouldn't stop someone with a mental handicap from paying $10 to enjoy a movie, but $10 to enjoy a hand of blackjack seems worse, somehow.
January 7th, 2013 at 7:01:52 PM
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I'm going to call a spade a spade. This isn't the first post in which the OP comes across with a sense of indignation, that he was either inconvenienced or annoyed by the presence of what he perceives as a less capable person; who "...has no right to be playing" next to him. I could rant too, about all the 死鬼佬 that keep chasing me from table to table, like a line of ducks. But that's part of life; he should deal with it.
January 8th, 2013 at 5:46:50 PM
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Quote: GHAre you sure it wasn't more of a distraction ***TO YOU*** because you somehow felt that you shouldn't have to "put up" having to play with his kind?
And there it is, the proverbial tough guy trying to spark an argument out of NOTHING! Axiom tried to no avail, but you guys really need to let the hostility go!
I wonder if some of you even read posts in their entirety or just pick and choose the parts out of context that make you upset?
I had no problem with the kid, he clearly has his own problems(or challenges depending on how you see it) and I had stated "anyone over 21 has the right to patron a casino" You are grasping at straws by comparing it to a situation where I was FORCED to give up a spot that I had been playing for over 2 hours to someone who was less than stellar as a BJ player.
My concern was Borgata's handling of the situation for all parties concerned. Heck, I wasn't re-stacking or betting his chips for him, so it did not affect me. But I'm sure the lady next to him didn't sit down at the table expecting to be doing that an hour later. It's not much different(safety wise) than an intoxicated person being loud, banging the table and knocking over their drinks or chip stack. People will always watch them first and worry about their actions causing a distraction. Just the way it is.
My leaving the table had little to do with his handicap and more to do with the count changing after the dealer pulled 3 killer hands in a row. Would've left the same way if a 50 yr old Wonger jumped in and the same results occurred. And may have stayed longer had those 3 hands landed on my spot.
However, that isn't the point. The point is Borgata's policy of not catering to someone with special needs and risking the safety of other patrons in the process.
January 8th, 2013 at 5:54:29 PM
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Quote: MoscaI don't believe this happened, sorry.
Oh I'm sorry then, next time I "fabricate" a story, I'll include sexy mermaids and unicorns to appease you!
January 8th, 2013 at 5:59:05 PM
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Quote: BedWetterBetterThe point is Borgata's policy of not catering to someone with special needs and risking the safety of other patrons in the process.
And what pray tell was the risk that you felt from this individual? Risk is in the eye of the assessor.
January 8th, 2013 at 6:08:52 PM
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Quote: BedWetterBetterOh I'm sorry then, next time I "fabricate" a story, I'll include sexy mermaids and unicorns to appease you!
Thanks man. I knew I could count on you.
A falling knife has no handle.
January 8th, 2013 at 6:11:11 PM
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Quote: GHAnd what pray tell was the risk that you felt from this individual? Risk is in the eye of the assessor.
Me? None. I can handle myself and don't need to prove how tough I am by sparking needless arguments.
But the lady and elderly man next to him could have been hit by his arms during his overenthusiastic celebrations.
Their knees/feet could have been hit by his chair as well during said movements.
His chip stack could have been knocked over into the dealer's rack, another player's stack or even off the table. Causing a distraction or potential thievery from lurkers loitering around the table.
Could have knocked over a drink by accident, soaking the mat and/or the cards causing either a misdeal or closing the table for everyone.
But I'm sure you thought of these items beyond your own agenda.
January 8th, 2013 at 6:14:57 PM
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Could've, would've, should've. Not your job, not your call.
January 8th, 2013 at 6:24:11 PM
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Quote: GHCould've, would've, should've. Not your job, not your call.
Yea, you're right. Him knocking down his chip stack two times with only one hand dealt was a good indicator he wouldn't cause any more distractions or mishaps!
Good job Borgata by not helping out a handicap person with physical problems using your own employees and burdening the paying customers!
January 8th, 2013 at 6:29:07 PM
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Quote: BedWetterBetterGood job Borgata by not helping out a handicap person with physical problems using your own employees and burdening the paying customers!
Again, your perception is flawed. Believe it or not, the world is filled with LOL who are quite thrilled at opportunities such as this.
January 8th, 2013 at 6:35:08 PM
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Quote: GHAgain, your perception is flawed. Believe it or not, the world is filled with LOL who are quite thrilled at opportunities such as this.
I have defended BWB by stating my perceived belief in this story earlier in this thread, but I concur with the point made by GH. I tend to assume that this gentleman has the necessary mental faculties to be sitting at a Blackjack Table, and, in my opinion, if that is so he has just as much right to enjoy himself in whatever way he wishes as I do. I would have welcomed the opportunity to help him, pursuant to his physical limitations, with open arms.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
January 8th, 2013 at 6:35:11 PM
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Quote: GHAgain, your perception is flawed. Believe it or not, the world is filled with LOL who are quite thrilled at opportunities such as this.
So you think a casino gambler, who has to constantly keep an eye on the person next to them out of fear, is "thrilled" and MY perception is flawed?
Please pass over whatever it is you're smoking!
January 8th, 2013 at 6:36:42 PM
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Quote: BedWetterBetterSo you think a casino gambler, who has to constantly keep an eye on the person next to them out of fear, is "thrilled" and MY perception is flawed?
Please pass over whatever it is you're smoking!
Hold on, I'm still hitting it, I get two puffs before the pass.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
January 8th, 2013 at 6:38:50 PM
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Quote: Mission146Hold on, I'm still hitting it, I get two puffs before the pass.
Dang it, how bout a shottie?
January 8th, 2013 at 6:40:50 PM
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Quote: BedWetterBetterSo you think a casino gambler, who has to constantly keep an eye on the person next to them out of fear, is "thrilled" and MY perception is flawed?
Yes, because you didn't ask her opinion. Maybe she was enjoying it :)
January 8th, 2013 at 6:43:13 PM
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Quote: GHYes, because you didn't ask her opinion. Maybe she was enjoying it :)
Guess I misread the "sigh" she let out when she re-stacked his pile for the 2nd time.
Your hearing must be superb, being you were not even there.
Clearly it was the sound of pure ecstasy and not pity!
January 8th, 2013 at 6:46:52 PM
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If you are so bothered by this, then go do something about it.
End Of Line.
End Of Line.
January 8th, 2013 at 6:50:33 PM
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Quote: GHIf you are so bothered by this, then go do something about it.
End Of Line.
Seems like you're the only one bothered by anything.
I'm just asking a question about Borgata's responsibility or lack thereof.
Since you are not a Borgata employee, your input is not necessary in the matter as you are missing the point in favor of starting a meaningless argument.
January 8th, 2013 at 10:05:43 PM
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The point that every single person other than you is making is that this guy has the right to play. Even if it inconveniences you.
January 9th, 2013 at 1:00:19 AM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe point that every single person other than you is making is that this guy has the right to play. Even if it inconveniences you.
I agree, but I feel the question is, should someone other than a complete stranger be helping him do the basic functions of the game if he can't do them himself? I would personally do it if requested to and honestly would have no problem with it, but clearly having to depend on other random patrons in this case is a bit surprising to me. Maybe Borgata employees are forbidden (probably) to help him place/collect wagers themselves; I really have no idea. Depending on his amount of motor skill and the amount of available room, it would have probably been smarter if the dealer cut his stacks into minimum bet units for him. Then he'd possibly could slide them to the bet circle, and less likely to knock them over obviously. More severely disabled casino patrons that I notice are usually at the machines since they still can press the buttons, and they are rarely alone. I've yet to play a table game with someone whose arms/hands don't have enough motor skill to place/collect wagers. Usually I have the least motor skills at a given table since I have mild cerebral palsy on my right side, so occasionally I am that ass that knocks over a stack of 20 chips when playing poker.
Asking for him to have a separate table is obviously a bit much though since he's not a high roller and hell, he wants to be part of the group!!
January 11th, 2013 at 5:55:07 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe point that every single person other than you is making is that this guy has the right to play. Even if it inconveniences you.
Where did I say he wasn't/shouldn't be allowed to play? Once again, you try and make arguments over nothing by kicking over rocks!
Also didn't say it was an inconvenience to ME. Said it was a potential risk to the other patrons and a distraction. Nobody's fault, just the way it is.
Borgata is being irresponsible, IMO, by not better accomodating the young man with physical limitations.
And the dealer WAS allowed to touch his bets and place his bet for him. She spoke to him like she knew him(from previous visits) and said "Just touch your chips and then I'll place the bet for ya."
Which is fine, if they take more precautions for this and give him a table specifically for his needs as well as other patrons who wish to play at that table.
My complaint is only with Borgata and their policies of dealing with this, and many other circumstances of varying degrees.
January 11th, 2013 at 5:57:57 PM
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Quote: BedWetterBetterMy complaint is only with Borgata and their policies of dealing with this, and many other circumstances of varying degrees.
http://www.theborgata.com/locate/contact-us
January 11th, 2013 at 6:04:51 PM
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January 11th, 2013 at 6:07:09 PM
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Whatcha saying, Sei-Gweilo?
January 11th, 2013 at 6:08:24 PM
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So, he asks a question, doesn't like the answers he gets, and tells people to mind their business. Makes sense to me...
January 11th, 2013 at 6:15:46 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSo, he asks a question, doesn't like the answers he gets, and tells people to mind their business. Makes sense to me...
I don't if the person spews utter nonsense to a question that wasn't even asked and spreads misinformation, for I am the internet police and all who oppose my view must suffer my wrath!
January 11th, 2013 at 7:59:30 PM
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Quote: BedWetterBetter
And the dealer WAS allowed to touch his bets and place his bet for him. She spoke to him like she knew him(from previous visits) and said "Just touch your chips and then I'll place the bet for ya."
Which is fine, if they take more precautions for this and give him a table specifically for his needs as well as other patrons who wish to play at that table.
My complaint is only with Borgata and their policies of dealing with this, and many other circumstances of varying degrees.
I think it sounds like the dealer should have kept his bets in min bet units so the chips weren't high enough for him to knock them down. And I'm guessing he made the table full? Because I don't see why this would be much of an issue otherwise. BJ can be a bit cramped if the table is full obviously. Remember that giving him a separate table is very likely what he would not want. Table games for many people is a social activity, so isolating him should be a last resort.
