Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
• Posts: 5692
December 2nd, 2012 at 12:11:59 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

That is not right.

"Early surrender" is rarely offered any more and and allows you to surrender before the dealer checks for blackjack.

"Late surrender" is the type usually offered -- the dealer checks for blackjack first, and, if he has a blackjack, you lose before you get the chance to surrender.

- you're right.
I learned, back when learning superfun-21, that you:
- cannot surrender when a dealer flips over a blackjack (like on a ten up card BJ),
- or ON a dealer's blackjack,
- but one is given the opportunity on a dealer's ace, to surrender before his check in that case.

That would be before your hit-or-stand, - still on your first two cards.
Also, what was described as "late surrender is part of Superfun-21" - is actually "surrender at any time."

I was also taught that a player can surrender after a double down IF he doubled down for the same amount, not if he doubled down for less, or some game rule reason that was not mathematically sound. (Mathematically, a player should be able to surrender on any double down in that game, as all that has to be done is to return half of his "bet in action," regardless of if it were formed with a full double for same amount, or a double double for less. It doesn't matter if a player has \$60 in action from doubling a \$30 bet to \$60, or doubled a \$40 bet for less with \$20, to form that \$60 bet.)

A lot to consider on surrendering.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
98Clubs
Joined: Jun 3, 2010
• Posts: 1728
December 2nd, 2012 at 12:20:14 AM permalink
I agree with Axiom st bottom of Page 2.... BUT this is Canada... In the US, one surrenders in turn. The Canadian Lottery might have different General Rules.

Can any Canadian posters confirm Surrender after Peek AND before Play begins?, as opposed to the typical "Surrender in turn" rule common in the US.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
AxiomOfChoice
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
• Posts: 5761
December 2nd, 2012 at 12:23:07 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

- you're right.
I learned, back when learning superfun-21, that you:
- cannot surrender when a dealer flips over a blackjack (like on a ten up card BJ),
- or ON a dealer's blackjack,
- but one is given the opportunity on a dealer's ace, to surrender before his check in that case.

That would be before your hit-or-stand, - still on your first two cards.
Also, what was described as "late surrender is part of Superfun-21" - is actually "surrender at any time."

I was also taught that a player can surrender after a double down IF he doubled down for the same amount, not if he doubled down for less, or some game rule reason that was not mathematically sound. (Mathematically, a player should be able to surrender on any double down in that game, as all that has to be done is to return half of his "bet in action," regardless of if it were formed with a full double for same amount, or a double double for less. It doesn't matter if a player has \$60 in action from doubling a \$30 bet to \$60, or doubled a \$40 bet for less with \$20, to form that \$60 bet.)

A lot to consider on surrendering.

Is that (surrender after a double down) what they mean by "double down rescue"?

I've seen the game but never played it. Spanish 21 seems to be more popular, although even that is pretty rare. The only blackjack variant I actually play is BJ Switch. There is something about the subtle complexity of the switch decision that I really like.
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
• Posts: 5692
December 2nd, 2012 at 12:50:00 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Is that (surrender after a double down) what they mean by "double down rescue"?

That would be yes - IF you can recieve half your current bet back, to get our of the bet, after a "bad double down."
But it would be NO if you're talking about a "Joe Pesci" - discarding the bad double card, and getting another (hopefully better) double down card. :)

[AxiomofChoice]I've seen the game but never played it. Spanish 21 seems to be more popular, although even that is pretty rare. The only blackjack variant I actually play is BJ Switch. There is something about the subtle complexity of the switch decision that I really like.

SuperFun-21 was popular in Vegas for a while, especially at Station properties. I thought it was a great, fully featured BJ variant, basically a "you can do anything" Blackjack - double any time, surrender any time, hit again on split aces, etc. Surprised it faded.

Switch is tricky, - brilliant but dangerous with bad strategy, and some players, too many, committed hara-kiri trying to play it without mastering the different strategy to it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
• Posts: 6910
December 2nd, 2012 at 7:07:41 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

At this risk of reheating this argument for the 17th time, I would call card counting making especially good use of ones brain at the table.

Ruh - Roh...... time to split this one off, Wiz...... And it will only be the 14th time on WoV......
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
• Posts: 11933
December 2nd, 2012 at 7:34:18 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
dwheatley
Joined: Nov 16, 2009
• Posts: 1246
December 2nd, 2012 at 8:23:11 AM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

I agree with Axiom st bottom of Page 2.... BUT this is Canada... In the US, one surrenders in turn. The Canadian Lottery might have different General Rules.

Can any Canadian posters confirm Surrender after Peek AND before Play begins?, as opposed to the typical "Surrender in turn" rule common in the US.

In Ontario, playing Spanish21, you surrender when it's your turn to act. There is no surrender on any BJ tables that I know of in Quebec or Ontario.

This whole idea of having to surrender before the other players act is ridiculous, and clearly a dealer error. It makes no sense with respect to standard dealing procedure. Imagine the lost time if the dealer had to pause and ask everyone before they took their turn if they wanted to surrender, on every deal?
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
Buzzard
Joined: Oct 28, 2012
• Posts: 6814
December 2nd, 2012 at 8:49:04 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Ruh - Roh...... time to split this one off, Wiz...... And it will only be the 14th time on WoV......

Why do I suspect an ulterior motive behind this post ? Ar am I just being paranoid ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
AB21
Joined: Dec 2, 2012
• Posts: 50
December 2nd, 2012 at 9:29:43 AM permalink
I have lived and played blackjack in Alberta for 25 years and have the answer to the original question. Unfortunately this was not an error by the dealer - but a very silly house rule. If a player wants to surrender, they must do so prior to the first person at the table taking an additional card. I have no idea why this stupid rule exists, but it certainly means you need to pay attention and act quickly!
dwheatley
Joined: Nov 16, 2009