AC Casinos forcing me to Drop a Hand in Blackjack
The first was at Trump Plaza on a Thursday night in April, it was a $10 H-17 table, but I had been playing two spots for nearly 5 hours and the table was always full. There were several other tables with $10 limits and even a $1 table which was ALWAYS full.
Nonetheless, I felt it was in bad taste for a Pit Boss to give me an ultimatum just to cater to some barely 21 yr. old caucasians standing behind me, watching my chip pile increase and seeing an easy spot to make a quick buck. I argued with the Pit Boss as to why I had give up a spot when I'd been at the table the longest? To which he replied "Because it is my discretion and I have to cater to the needs of all players, not just YOU!" I just shook my head in disbelief and thought this was unfair.
It happened again at a different casino recently, where I had been playing 2 hands at a $10 S-17 table and another person was playing two hands for 2 hours each for a decent profit while everyone else was playing one hand each. When two elderly black women stood behind us and whined to the Pit boss they wanted to play at our table, when in fact there were plenty of open tables a few feet away.
In the first instance at Trump Plaza, I just got up and left out of disgust that the Pit Boss was being such a prick and so unreasonable.
The second place, we both gave up a spot each and watched as the two elderly women pulled out a $120 in crumpled up cash combined and were quickly parted from it, giving us our table back in short order.
But is this sort of thing allowed at BJ tables that don't have very low minimums like $1-$5? Were they trying to back me off without being the bad guy??
I had written to both Legal departments, but got no reply(shocker!) and haven't been to either Casino since.
Has anyone else been FORCED to give up a spot at $10 or more BJ or is this an isolated incident?
Quote: BedWetterBetter
Has anyone else been FORCED to give up a spot at $10 or more BJ or is this an isolated incident?
It's pretty common. The casinos will always try to accommodate the largest possible number of patrons. Even places that require bets at double the minimum to play two hands, they'll make a player pull back a hand to fit in another person at the minimum.
Ultimately, it's the right thing to do. Sorry if you feel otherwise.
Many times on a crowded night I've wanted to play, but there have been players playing multiple hands and I couldn't find a spot. FOR ME, it wasn't worth the stink-eye to force the issue, but in my opinion the pit bosses acted correctly. I liked the guy's explanation, that his job was to cater to all the patrons. No one knows if those players were going to pull out $100, or $1000. Or how much they'd already dropped elsewhere, or were planning on dropping.
And anyhow, taking up two spots when others want to play is just being selfish and greedy. If you want more action, double up your bets.
Particularly if people are milling about behind you its obviously not going to be long before a suit shows up to end your discourtesy.
Sure if there are other tables at or about the same limit that is going to be different but as things fill up you normally will be reminded that you can simply double your action at one spot rather than hog two circles simultaneously.
If you really want a table by yourself that can arranged, often at 300.00 a hand. Otherwise, the casino wants to make the other customers happy too, not just the early birds who get there and camp out.
Many times, I've been on the sidelines trying to get in at a $10-$15 table and someone already sitting the table would instantly put money down on an open spot and give me the "piss off" look. I would look at the dealer and he would shrug and say "Sorry, he was here first." And the pit boss would just "look the other way", which I would take the subtle hint and find another table instead of complaining.
At Sands PA especially, they give priority to the ones already there. People will literally complain Loudly to the Pit Boss about someone playing multiple spots and he'll just shrug and say "We'll open more $15 tables in an hour."
So it is kind of inconsistent as far as I'm concerned, but I don't want to be labeled a complainer or whiner much less be noticed at all by the house, so I don't bother.
I just never had this happen and was curious if anyone else had this happen. As it is not written on the table(s) I sat down at, that a table has to surrender a hand. Least of all when there are more tables 10 ft. away and I don't see people standing behind those players.
Quote: FleaStiffI don't see why you think you should be allowed to hog an extra spot on the layout.
Particularly if people are milling about behind you its obviously not going to be long before a suit shows up to end your discourtesy.
Sure if there are other tables at or about the same limit that is going to be different but as things fill up you normally will be reminded that you can simply double your action at one spot rather than hog two circles simultaneously.
If you really want a table by yourself that can arranged, often at 300.00 a hand. Otherwise, the casino wants to make the other customers happy too, not just the early birds who get there and camp out.
Again, it's not about hogging spots. If I've been sitting at a table for 5 hours and playing two spots the whole time to moderate success. Why I am I now singled out all of a sudden because someone else wants to "try"?
Shouldn't they make them wait or open another table for them to be compensated? Heck, it's been done to me a few times and AC isn't exactly jam packed at the tables now a days, with several empty tables and dealers standing around doing nothing.
Not to mention they COULD go to another casino, but chose to stand behind me and watch my play before deciding they wanted THAT spot. It was a Thursday night in the first case(hardly a full house) and Saturday afternoon for the other(there were plenty of open, half empty tables 10 ft. away)
I just found it odd and don't believe it was common practice before.
Quote: BedWetterBetterIn the first instance at Trump Plaza, I just got up and left out of disgust that the Pit Boss was being such a prick and so unreasonable.
When a casino can't get their employees under control, and impress upon them they should be respectful to all players in these types of situations, it's a sign of a more systemic problem. If I'm going to play and lose money, I'll be damned if casino employees are going to not be pleasant in the process.
Quote: TheBigPaybakI guess I'm in the minority: if a player has been playing two hands for a period of time, I feel they should be allowed to continue to do so if that's how they want to gamble to not interrupt their session. If they see people hovering and want to offer up a hand, so be it. If people can't find spots, maybe the casino should open up more tables. I would imagine that most of the time when a player began playing multiple spots, it was at a time where there were plenty of seats open, so I don't think they were hogging or anything. I suppose if this was a policy they truly wanted to enforce, they should have a sign "warning" players that they may be asked to give up a spot.
Exactly, they Have that sign at LOW table mins like $1 and $5 or may completely disallow them to play more than one hand(usually at $1).
But I have yet to see it clearly displayed at $10 and up, and did not see it displayed at all in both these instances.
I even remember a while back, I was playing two spots at another AC casino and someone tried to force their way in, to which both the Pit Boss and Dealer told him he can't play because I was playing two hands. He said "Why can't he give up one spot?" and they informed him "He was here for a while and we can't make him give up a spot"
So either this a NEW policy, the house playing politics or a shallow attempt to back off players without making a scene.
Quote: 1BBIt happens all the time at low limit tables. Don't take it personally. What surprises me is the time it was done when there were many nearby seats available. I don't see that too often and I don't quite understand it.
Yea, that was a head scratcher. I even pointed the tables out and the two old ladies "insisted" on playing at the table. Something was mentioned about "They liked the Match the Dealer bet," which I never played and neither did they.
Quote: BozI call shananigans.....Trump Plaza never has a full table other than the $1 BJ table. Playing 2 hands at $10 each should get you a comped suite and your own table.
HAHAHA, very true!
I remember asking my Trump "Host" why an acquaintence with a tier score of 189 was given Weekly Matchplay, Weekly Free Gifts & Comped rooms Any day of the week with online booking a breeze. But my Tier score of 3684 was given none of these "Gifts" and any weekend room comp had to be requested over the phone and was not guaranteed?
To which he said "Well, sometimes WINNING is the best gift and the rest just falls into place!"
How things have changed!
Quote: BedWetterBetterExactly, they Have that sign at LOW table mins like $1 and $5 or may completely disallow them to play more than one hand(usually at $1).
$10 is a low limit table. Most places I play, it is the minimum. $25 is also sort of on the low side; at Borgata on a weekend $25 is the lowest you'll find. High limits, to me, start at $100.
I'm not a particularly skilled player, and definitely not a high limits player, but I have no fear of sitting at a $25 table. Play it right and you should end up right about where you would at a $10 table, +/- $15 or so. In fact, I usually bet $30 at those tables so I don't get any $2.50 chips, (nor quarters, depending on the casino).
And they make it a point to prevent 2 hand playing at a $1 or $5 game. But not at most $10 ones during the week.
Quote: 24BingoI've never been to AC, but at Foxwoods $10 blackjack is hard to find on busy nights; even $10 craps can be a little dicey. I've seen sic bo start at ten a few times! Mohegan's a little better, but still, outside the $5 pit, on busy nights it's one or two $10 blackjack tables mixed into the $15 ones. $10 is definitely "low" in my mind.
The $5 pit is H17 at MS.
Yeah, f@ckin right!Quote: MoscaI'm not a particularly skilled player, and definitely not a high limits player, but I have no fear of sitting at a $25 table. Play it right and you should end up right about where you would at a $10 table, +/- $15 or so.
Quote: 1BBThe $5 pit is H17 at MS.
...yes? What of it? That kind of goes to my point about $10 being low.
Quote: 24Bingo...yes? What of it? That kind of goes to my point about $10 being low.
What of it ?
Do you mean why does it matter to me or who cares or it's none of my business?
The Wizard's eighth commandment is "Thou shalt covet good rules" and goes on to state "seek out the best rules possible." Mohegan Sun has always been known for it's S17 blackjack until a few years ago when those low limit tables went to H17. In the spirit of what this site is about, which is accurate information, I believe all the facts should be known.
I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread to plan a trip expecting to play $5 tables with S17 during peak hours and I wouldn't want anyone who does play them to use the incorrect basic strategy. That's what of it.
Quote: bbvk05Getting into two pockets is more profitable than just having one person playing two hands. Unless the person with two hands a black chip bettor then I would definitely be making room for new people as a supervisor.
Well, it happened AGAIN at another AC property. This time at a $15 table.
Sunday night at Taj, was playing 2 hands on one end and a cute, asian woman was playing 2 hands on the other end.
This was the Bust It variation(which I normally don't play) but for a 5 hand stretch, the Bust it was paying so much even I put some reds on it for hits of 15-1 for a Six bust, 9-1 for a seven bust and several 3-1 for a 10 bust. Made an extra $225 on it!
Then, a couple of civilians joined the open spots in the middle... cutey goes from a smile to a frown and drops a hand voluntarily when one civilian asks if she's playing that spot. Dealer no longer busts his hands : (
Oh well, still hanging on with a full table and a positive count. That is until another civilian began hovering around the table and flagging down the pit boss. She then starts looking my way and comes over to say the dreaded words "Sir, I need you to give up one spot"
I said "Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are empty tables over there right?"
She goes "Well, yes. But those are $25 tables and this young man would like to play $15"
To which I retort "And why is that my concern? If he wants to play at a $15 table, then he should wait like I did or go play next door at Showboat or you could lower the limits to cater to him instead of hassling me."
Amazingly, she agreed "You're right, it isn't fair. But I have to do what I can to appease new customers."
I suggested "How about this, you let me finish this shoe(which was only half way done with a + count) and then I'll give him a spot?"
She says "Lemme ask him..."
He says "How long do I have to wait?"
I say "5 minutes, have a drink and watch the game while you wait!"
Shoe ends, I color in +650 and let him have the spot(s).
I watch the first 3 hands with him as the table anchor playing one hand.
He gets:
1) Soft 7 vs Dealer 9 and stands. Dealer has 19.
2) Soft 6 vs Dealer 8 and Stands. Dealer flips a 6, but catches a 4.
3) 11 Versus Dealer 5 and Hits... Gets a 3, pauses for a few seconds and HITS again! Gets an Ace and then stands. Dealer flips up a 10 and catches a 6! To an explosion from the table and the aforementioned cute girl bolting from the table after a stream of obscenities in Cantonese.
I look at the Pit Boss and the dealer, "Now you know why I don't want him playing at the table, Good Night Everyone!"
Quote: 1BBMaybe you should have watched a little longer. It looks like the count was rising.
Don't always believe what you perceive to be a rising count, like I didn't believe this "civilian" was anything but a plant or dimwit come to play against BS.
Quote: BozMy only suggestion is to move to $25 tables if your bankroll permits it. Less players like this at those tables.
Problem is, the $25 tables are fairly dead on Sunday night. So you're basically flying solo and going in for nearly double the minimum.
Also, did I mention the girl at the table was cute : )
Quote: BedWetterBetterWell, it happened AGAIN at another AC property. This time at a $15 table.
Sunday night at Taj, was playing 2 hands on one end and a cute, asian woman was playing 2 hands on the other end.
This was the Bust It variation(which I normally don't play) but for a 5 hand stretch, the Bust it was paying so much even I put some reds on it for hits of 15-1 for a Six bust, 9-1 for a seven bust and several 3-1 for a 10 bust. Made an extra $225 on it!
Then, a couple of civilians joined the open spots in the middle... cutey goes from a smile to a frown and drops a hand voluntarily when one civilian asks if she's playing that spot. Dealer no longer busts his hands : (
Oh well, still hanging on with a full table and a positive count. That is until another civilian began hovering around the table and flagging down the pit boss. She then starts looking my way and comes over to say the dreaded words "Sir, I need you to give up one spot"
I said "Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are empty tables over there right?"
She goes "Well, yes. But those are $25 tables and this young man would like to play $15"
To which I retort "And why is that my concern? If he wants to play at a $15 table, then he should wait like I did or go play next door at Showboat or you could lower the limits to cater to him instead of hassling me."
Amazingly, she agreed "You're right, it isn't fair. But I have to do what I can to appease new customers."
I suggested "How about this, you let me finish this shoe(which was only half way done with a + count) and then I'll give him a spot?"
She says "Lemme ask him..."
He says "How long do I have to wait?"
I say "5 minutes, have a drink and watch the game while you wait!"
Shoe ends, I color in +650 and let him have the spot(s).
I watch the first 3 hands with him as the table anchor playing one hand.
He gets:
1) Soft 7 vs Dealer 9 and stands. Dealer has 19.
2) Soft 6 vs Dealer 8 and Stands. Dealer flips a 6, but catches a 4.
3) 11 Versus Dealer 5 and Hits... Gets a 3, pauses for a few seconds and HITS again! Gets an Ace and then stands. Dealer flips up a 10 and catches a 6! To an explosion from the table and the aforementioned cute girl bolting from the table after a stream of obscenities in Cantonese.
I look at the Pit Boss and the dealer, "Now you know why I don't want him playing at the table, Good Night Everyone!"
So let's see, after this:
1. You're unhappy
2. The Asian woman is unhappy
3. The newcomer probably is unhappy as he lost and may feel self-conscious feeling "responsible" in some way.
Now if it worked in your favor, you won't remember it as opposed to the times where it didn't work in your favor.
I think they should reconsider that policy.
Quote: TheBigPaybakSo let's see, after this:
1. You're unhappy
2. The Asian woman is unhappy
3. The newcomer probably is unhappy as he lost and may feel self-conscious feeling "responsible" in some way.
Now if it worked in your favor, you won't remember it as opposed to the times where it didn't work in your favor.
I think they should reconsider that policy.
Who said I was unhappy?
I made my money and left.
I didn't want to, nor should I have to deal with someone who doesn't know the basic rules of BJ but INSISTS on playing in an already occupied spot. So I threw out a negotiation and it worked for me.
And I applauded the lady pit boss for hearing my case and coming to comprimise. I even smiled and winked at them when I threw out the barb towards the "newcomer". Who btw, didn't seem to have the faintest clue as to how he was upsetting the others or why his money was disappearing.
In case you didn't notice, my time at the table was sort of influenced by the attractive woman sitting there. Getting the extra loot on the Bust It was just a nice bonus for both of us that was opening the lines of communication. But bringing in the rif raff, quickly dissolved that and changed her mood fast!
Quote: BedWetterBetterI didn't want to...
I guess that's what I read about the situation, you were enjoying yourself and then a situation came up that you had to deal with and that you didn't want to leave. But as you say, at least they didn't make you change your play mid-shoe...
Quote: TheBigPaybakI guess that's what I read about the situation, you were enjoying yourself and then a situation came up that you had to deal with and that you didn't want to leave. But as you say, at least they didn't make you change your play mid-shoe...
The squeaky wheel gets the grease!
This is only after two incidents(posted earlier) where I did NOT stand up for my self or even think to comprimise. But it was such a new ordeal, I wasn't sure what was happening. Couldn't rock the boat and risk getting banned.
But those were at casinos that I have little play time and don't even use the player's card there. Taj I'm a regular and upper tier card holder, so I felt right standing my ground especially when I thought this was unreasonable and would more than likely result badly.
I just can't stand this notion that there are tables galore, dealers standing around doing nothing, but I'm singled out for playing 2 hands and someone conveniently wants one when things are rolling. Just doesn't add up when it's happened multiple times and the first two, the pit bosses were completely unyielding.
Quote: BedWetterBetterI just can't stand this notion that there are tables galore, dealers standing around doing nothing, but I'm singled out for playing 2 hands and someone conveniently wants one when things are rolling. Just doesn't add up when it's happened multiple times and the first two, the pit bosses were completely unyielding.
I agree- and at the end of the day- I think the simple answer is that some places are just not well-run, for a variety of reasons...
Quote: BedWetterBetterDon't always believe what you perceive to be a rising count, like I didn't believe this "civilian" was anything but a plant or dimwit come to play against BS.
So, you count cards but you still believe in voodoo which says that a player playing different from basic strategy screws up some predetermined magical "flow of the cards" and somehow hurts you? And then you play hugely -EV side bets when they've "been hitting"?
I mean, you can gamble however you want, but:
1. How other players play their hands has no effect on you, and
2. If you are going to play the sucker bets, you may as well not bother with counting.
Quote: MoscaYou're a civilian, too. Honestly, I think your entire problem comes from not the gambling and the casino but this identity thing, where you feel that they are civilians but you are something more than that. Most of us don't judge others by how well they play at numbered pasteboards.
In fairness to the OP, APs (or people who think that they are APs) need a term to describe those who aren't APs. "Civilian" is fine, I think. I don't think that it's derogatory or judgemental. It's a lot nicer than "ploppy".
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSo, you count cards but you still believe in voodoo which says that a player playing different from basic strategy screws up some predetermined magical "flow of the cards" and somehow hurts you? And then you play hugely -EV side bets when they've "been hitting"?
I mean, you can gamble however you want, but:
1. How other players play their hands has no effect on you, and
2. If you are going to play the sucker bets, you may as well not bother with counting.
Not hitting soft 6's and 7's against a dealer 8 & 9 respectively, which resulted in the dealer making hands or outright winning is in fact bad play. Shouldn't happen, but it does.
Someone who isn't informed in BJ enough to hit on soft 6/7 is either on the payroll or intecllectually inferior and I don't need to babysit them or hold a school session. Regardless the outcome of the hand.
Bust it is a pretty fun side bet and if it's only costing a couple bucks, it makes for a fun time. Especially when there is an attractive lady betting it like crazy and getting very "happy" when it is paying out. Always a good ice breaker and helps break the touch barrier. But if that isn't your thing, then it's ok! You'll find there are more amusing things to pursue at a casino then just a chip stack someday!!
Quote: BedWetterBetterNot hitting soft 6's and 7's against a dealer 8 & 9 respectively, which resulted in the dealer making hands or outright winning is in fact bad play. Shouldn't happen, but it does.
Someone who isn't informed in BJ enough to hit on soft 6/7 is either on the payroll or intecllectually inferior and I don't need to babysit them or hold a school session. Regardless the outcome of the hand.
"On the payroll"?? Why would the casino pay someone to sit and play badly? You still seem to be under the impression that how they play their hand affects you.
You don't need to babysit them or teach them anything. Just let them misplay their hand however they want.
Also, speaking on being "informed in BJ", there is no such thing as a soft 6 or a soft 7. Maybe you mean a soft 16 or a soft 17?
Quote:Bust it is a pretty fun side bet and if it's only costing a couple bucks, it makes for a fun time. Especially when there is an attractive lady betting it like crazy and getting very "happy" when it is paying out. Always a good ice breaker and helps break the touch barrier. But if that isn't your thing, then it's ok! You'll find there are more amusing things to pursue at a casino then just a chip stack someday!!
That's fine, but at the same time you shouldn't try to pass yourself off as an AP and call others "civilians". You absolutely don't have an edge the way you are playing. If you count perfectly and can spread aggressively in a good game, your edge is, maybe, 1.5% of your total bets. It doesn't take too many sucker bets at "just a couple of bucks" to flush that away. Which is fine, if you're just there for entertainment or to flirt with the other players.
Quote: BedWetterBetterNot hitting soft 6's and 7's against a dealer 8 & 9 respectively, which resulted in the dealer making hands or outright winning is in fact bad play. Shouldn't happen, but it does.
Someone who isn't informed in BJ enough to hit on soft 6/7 is either on the payroll or intecllectually inferior and I don't need to babysit them or hold a school session. Regardless the outcome of the hand.
Bust it is a pretty fun side bet and if it's only costing a couple bucks, it makes for a fun time. Especially when there is an attractive lady betting it like crazy and getting very "happy" when it is paying out. Always a good ice breaker and helps break the touch barrier. But if that isn't your thing, then it's ok! You'll find there are more amusing things to pursue at a casino then just a chip stack someday!!
In the long run poor players only hurt themselves. I don't concern myself with their play and I don't play the "what if" game.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice"On the payroll"?? Why would the casino pay someone to sit and play badly? You still seem to be under the impression that how they play their hand affects you.
You don't need to babysit them or teach them anything. Just let them misplay their hand however they want.
Also, speaking on being "informed in BJ", there is no such thing as a soft 6 or a soft 7. Maybe you mean a soft 16 or a soft 17?
That's fine, but at the same time you shouldn't try to pass yourself off as an AP and call others "civilians". You absolutely don't have an edge the way you are playing. If you count perfectly and can spread aggressively in a good game, your edge is, maybe, 1.5% of your total bets. It doesn't take too many sucker bets at "just a couple of bucks" to flush that away. Which is fine, if you're just there for entertainment or to flirt with the other players.
Nope, you're just assuming too much. Trying to find monsters under rocks and arguing over nothing. Fact remains, the guy played incorrectly and it cleared the other players out. Which affects penetration and can draw more heat to someone playing solo.
The payroll comment was a joke, but it isn't out of the question that a "spy" could be in the midst for other reasons. Making bad plays to gauge a reaction of an AP is a possibility, not likely but possible.
LOL, judge not lest ye be judged. Good to know you can determine someone's playing ability from behind a computer screen and jump on them over typos.
Good job being the internet tough guy!
Quote: 1BBIn the long run poor players only hurt themselves. I don't concern myself with their play and I don't play the "what if" game.
True, but I should not be FORCED to relinquish a spot, mid-shoe, to someone who can't even play simple strategy.
THAT is the point, not who's right or who's wrong about labels and categorizing.
Nor what someone chooses to do on a side bet.
But alas, tough guys on the internet like to flex to no avail!
Quote: BedWetterBetterNope, you're just assuming too much. Trying to find monsters under rocks and arguing over nothing. Fact remains, the guy played incorrectly and it cleared the other players out. Which affects penetration and can draw more heat to someone playing solo.
People play incorrectly all the time. You should welcome this. If everyone played correctly they would have to shut the game down. Clearing the other players out is even better. You will make a lot more money playing solo.
As far as penetration goes, you should use it to your advantage. Encourage the guy to hit when the count is negative and stand when the count is positive. Do this regardless of his hand or the dealer's hand. Try to convince him that if he doesn't do what you suggest, the dealer will make 21.
On the other hand, if it's negative, claim that he ruined the shoe and drop to the table minimum.
Quote: AxiomOfChoicePeople play incorrectly all the time. You should welcome this. If everyone played correctly they would have to shut the game down. Clearing the other players out is even better. You will make a lot more money playing solo.
As far as penetration goes, you should use it to your advantage. Encourage the guy to hit when the count is negative and stand when the count is positive. Do this regardless of his hand or the dealer's hand. Try to convince him that if he doesn't do what you suggest, the dealer will make 21.
Good luck convincing the uninformed why hitting a soft hand can't hurt their hand!
I had the wonderful task of dealing with a stubborn, urban 22 yr old who just kept shaking his head when I suggested it couldn't hurt to hit A-4 against the dealer's 10. The dealer was no help, just staring blankly and yelling at me "It's YOUR move sir!"
Sure enough, the next card was a 6. So I learned from that day, you can't make a horse drink...even when the drinks are on the house!
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI still don't understand why you care if the 22 year old hits or not.
The same reason you concern yourself with other people's playing preferences when they're no where near you.
