How Many Professional Blackjack Players Are There?
August 15th, 2012 at 2:22:57 PM
permalink
How many professional blackjack players do you suppose are there. By professional, I mean someone who derives the vast majority of their income by playing blackjack. If they have a couple of side investments fine, but their source of income is blackjack.
Would you guess 100? A few hundred? A couple of thousand? More?
Would you guess 100? A few hundred? A couple of thousand? More?
Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.
August 15th, 2012 at 2:37:34 PM
permalink
Just guessing, I'd say a dozen, maybe two dozen. Pros are always getting backed off and the profits tend to be too small to cover travelling to casinos in foreign countries where they might not be known.
August 15th, 2012 at 2:46:47 PM
permalink
Quote: JuyemuraHow many professional blackjack players do you suppose are there.
Including counting, hole carding, shuffle tracking, team
players, worldwide, a few thousand.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 15th, 2012 at 2:48:02 PM
permalink
Quote: JuyemuraHow many professional blackjack players do you suppose are there. By professional, I mean someone who derives the vast majority of their income by playing blackjack. If they have a couple of side investments fine, but their source of income is blackjack.
Would you guess 100? A few hundred? A couple of thousand? More?
People always have different definitions of professional when it comes to blackjack. What is yours?Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
August 15th, 2012 at 2:51:34 PM
permalink
Between 1 and 2,
not more than 3
not more than 3
winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)
August 15th, 2012 at 3:34:37 PM
permalink
I did it for 20 months back in early 70's. Made a tidy little sum and thought I would go back home and invest in a small trucking business. Then came a small recession in 1974 and lost my butt. Hindsight makes me wish I would have lost it in LV or at least stayed and went to work.
August 15th, 2012 at 3:49:02 PM
permalink
With all this talk of surveillance and heat, I just don't think there could be very many. Some retirees may be having a bit of fun but when you factor in other spending at the casino they probably are not making all that much counting in largely red chip games.
If you see a 200,000 car drive by on the strip, do you think Black Jack Player or do you think Pimp?
The data supporting each belief can be a bit sketchy, illusory and plain wrong but if I had to put money down on it, it would be Pimp each and every time and never once would I bet on Advantage Blackjack Player.
If you see a 200,000 car drive by on the strip, do you think Black Jack Player or do you think Pimp?
The data supporting each belief can be a bit sketchy, illusory and plain wrong but if I had to put money down on it, it would be Pimp each and every time and never once would I bet on Advantage Blackjack Player.
August 15th, 2012 at 4:11:27 PM
permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 15th, 2012 at 4:12:16 PM
permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 15th, 2012 at 4:17:38 PM
permalink
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe average Joe in a casino would have no clue whether someone at a bj table was a pro or not. .
This is very true. Ask your average player how many
pro's are in the casino at any given time and he'll
usually say 5 or 10. The correct answer is usually
zero. Usually.. Most casinos will admit to dealing
with 5-7 AP's a month, for many its far less than
that.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 15th, 2012 at 4:45:31 PM
permalink
One of my coworkers is good enough at counting that he can do it while dealing. He's said he's seen a few counters--less than a dozen. But none of them are making a living wage. They might be averaging a couple hundred a month.
I've always wondered about sports betting or horses. I'll betchya there were some people making a lot of money on UFC fights a few years ago. It's probably becoming increasingly more difficult. A friend of mine, not a bettor, was in a free Facebook pool. You picked, fighter, round, and method for each fight. For one card, he got something like 9/10 perfect for all three. On the tenth got right fighter and method, but not round. He was in 90th place out of several million. I think he could've made some money.
I've always wondered about sports betting or horses. I'll betchya there were some people making a lot of money on UFC fights a few years ago. It's probably becoming increasingly more difficult. A friend of mine, not a bettor, was in a free Facebook pool. You picked, fighter, round, and method for each fight. For one card, he got something like 9/10 perfect for all three. On the tenth got right fighter and method, but not round. He was in 90th place out of several million. I think he could've made some money.
August 15th, 2012 at 4:58:33 PM
permalink
Considering the team-play I encountered in the late 80's to 2005, I would say EvenBob is about right... a few thousand, I'll place it 3K-5K. I don't think its 10,000 yet.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
August 15th, 2012 at 5:01:01 PM
permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 15th, 2012 at 5:12:23 PM
permalink
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe fact that when the count dictates a strategy change makes the others at the table think we're stupid, especially when it causes them to lose. In the 13+ years that I have been playing this way, not once did another player ask if I was a pro.
The best pros I've seen play this up & act like they're either superstitious or novices. It's fun to watch when you know it's happening.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 15th, 2012 at 5:15:20 PM
permalink
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe average Joe in a casino would have no clue whether someone at a bj table was a pro or not. The fact that when the count dictates a strategy change makes the others at the table think we're stupid, especially when it causes them to lose. In the 13+ years that I have been playing this way, not once did another player ask if I was a pro.
I would say that I am the more-or-less the average Joe in a casino, just with a little more intuition and knowledge than most average Joes...emphasis on, "A little." That having been said, I know that I have spotted AP's on more than one occasion, whether or not they are pros I would not know simply by virtue of considering it impolite to ask...not to mention knowing what the answer would be (NO!) regardless of the truth.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
August 15th, 2012 at 7:02:35 PM
permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 15th, 2012 at 7:24:56 PM
permalink
Quote: IbeatyouracesIf you know any tells and spot one, all you have to do is watch the player for a while. Also, a lot is going to depend on where you are at. In Vegas you are much more likely to come across one as opposed to anywhere else.
I will say that I play BS, but I also count. I do not bet in such a way that would eliminate the HE, but my $5-$15 spread still reduces it a little bit, do not misunderstand that I am still playing purely for fun and do not think my tactics will accomplish anything aside from me lasting a little longer. In any event, I have seen (once at Wheeling Island and a few times in KC) players play according to BS, but deviate in certain ways towards the end of a shoe (such as taking Insurance) and they have also increased their bets towards the end of the shoe with a spread certainly greater than mine.
I don't know what any other tells would be, or what would seperate a pro from, any other AP, though. I saw one guy do pretty well and leave at the end of the shoe, having played two shoes, but that may or may not make him a pro. I imagine that no AP wants to be detected, regardless of primary source of income.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
August 15th, 2012 at 7:47:42 PM
permalink
My contribution/observation: It's easiest to play pretty close to composition-dependent BS, and alter your play decisions based on the count/situation. Maybe a small bet spread can be worked in, too, but the spread will get you about 10x more heat than occasionally taking insurance, standing on 16, or surrendering on 14.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 15th, 2012 at 8:42:27 PM
permalink
I say the average Blackjack player does not have a clue how many pro players there are.Quote: EvenBobThis is very true. Ask your average player how many
pro's are in the casino at any given time and he'll
usually say 5 or 10.
As to BJ counters, the average BJ player, that included me, does not know what a card counter is or exactly what one does.
Most BJ players I talk with and ask them questions, a very scientific method I have BTW,
thinks the card counter is cheating someway the casino and the other players at the table and should not be allowed to play.
Why does a card counter keep the count to herself?
Not to be found out and they are the only ones that want to have any advantage from that knowledge.
It is not a secret, but counters treat it as such.
Casinos could keep the true count on a BJ table.
Most BJ players could care less.
When my GFs play poker and BJ at home parties, we keep the true count on a computer during Blackjack play
so every one knows what it is.
Funny to see counts over +5 and everyone can not still beat the dealer.
We mostly play a tournament style. Winner takes all.
I Heart Vi Hart
August 15th, 2012 at 9:19:18 PM
permalink
Even if you were to identify a skillful player, there's no way to know whether or not he's a "professional." A guy could be spreading 1-15 with black chips and still just be a casual tourist (I hope my bankroll one day is big enough to do this). Or there could be the professional who plays many, many hours per year with a $25-$250 spread. I think you could live on the profits from this spread, if you had enough heat-detection and avoidance skill to stay alive at enough places every year.
No one will really ever know the answer to the OP's question, all we can do is relate anecdotes and experiences from other boards.
No one will really ever know the answer to the OP's question, all we can do is relate anecdotes and experiences from other boards.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
August 15th, 2012 at 11:33:53 PM
permalink
If I hit the lottery, or by some other means became rich and didn't have to work (which I probably wouldn't) I would count just as a means to play for free. I wouldn't go in to make profit, since I wouldn't need it. I would just play for an hour or two, get some entertainment. If I'm down, I'd leave. If I'm up, I'd spend the winnings on other games, like craps. I would hope I could stay under the radar. Or preferably, they wouldn't care that I'm counting, since they know they'll get their money back on another game. And I might just stay in their hotel, drink their beers and eat their food and they'll still make a profit from me.
August 16th, 2012 at 4:45:17 AM
permalink
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe average Joe in a casino would have no clue whether someone at a bj table was a pro or not. The fact that when the count dictates a strategy change makes the others at the table think we're stupid, especially when it causes them to lose. In the 13+ years that I have been playing this way, not once did another player ask if I was a pro.
This happened to me in LV. I was playing BJ when another player started discussing counting with the Pitboss. The conversation went like this.
Player: So these days I guess there are no counters or very few, since with all this technology you have you find them in no time.
Pit Boss: Yes, we catch them very quickly.
Player: I read this book a long time ago by xxxx about counting. But that was about single deck etc. With 6 decks etc it is very difficult for someone to count.
Pit Boss: Yes very few counters exist.
Player: Anyway in all these years I have been playing BJ I have never seen a single Counter. So if there are any there must be very few.
That was the only time I ever had in a BJ table when someone started discussing counting with the pitboss. In the meantime I was trying to figure out what to do. Should I stay in this table or this moron was creating heat for me. Anyway I stayed . And I was thinking:" So you expect a counter having a big sign on his head saying COUNTER". Its these times that you can barely contain yourself from talking. With his power of deduction he deduced that counters do not exist as he has never observed one, and saying this at the same time as one was sitting just next to him for the last 30 minutes.
I wish I just had the nerve to say " Just look this way" after the pitboss left. But it is a golden Counters rule never to identify yourself (not even hint at it) eithert to casino personnel or to other players (not even to other counters). With regard to One Counter identyfing another Counter on the table the etiquette is not to ask about it. You can make a hint to him (in case he did not realise there is another counter on the table) with the purpose that it is a bad idea to have two counters on the same table and one should leave. Of course these is all done with hints that only another counter would get and a third person would think that the comment was about something else.
August 16th, 2012 at 4:58:23 AM
permalink
I think the number of BJ only Proffesional Players (main income comes from BJ) is very small, probably a lot smaller than 100 worlwide.
This number was a lot bigger in the past, but many Pro BJ players switched to Poker in the last decade.
There are also a lot of AP players that do a combination of AP plays (BJ, Poker, Sports Betting, other)
The number of Pro AP Players should be in the several thousand: Most of the them the primary income would be Poker and Sports Betting.
(definition of Pro been that it is the primary income)
AP BJ players in general would also be in the several thousands. Fot the vast majority of them AP BJ (counting and other forms) is a part-time activity which combines Entertainment with Making Money.
That's the reason that I do it. It is just a Hobby which instead of paying for it, you get paid for it and the pay is quite good. Like any sport or other hobby, I like to win when competing. An when playing BJ against the Casino, you need to keep a long term score against them. And apart from the money, you get the satisfaction of beating the opponent (like you do in any other sport)
This number was a lot bigger in the past, but many Pro BJ players switched to Poker in the last decade.
There are also a lot of AP players that do a combination of AP plays (BJ, Poker, Sports Betting, other)
The number of Pro AP Players should be in the several thousand: Most of the them the primary income would be Poker and Sports Betting.
(definition of Pro been that it is the primary income)
AP BJ players in general would also be in the several thousands. Fot the vast majority of them AP BJ (counting and other forms) is a part-time activity which combines Entertainment with Making Money.
That's the reason that I do it. It is just a Hobby which instead of paying for it, you get paid for it and the pay is quite good. Like any sport or other hobby, I like to win when competing. An when playing BJ against the Casino, you need to keep a long term score against them. And apart from the money, you get the satisfaction of beating the opponent (like you do in any other sport)
August 16th, 2012 at 7:13:24 AM
permalink
Yes, poker and sports. I once saw two sports book tickets that had been purchased by a man at a low level poker game. One ticket was for forty thousand dollars and the other was for thirty thousand dollars for a combined bet of seventy grand on some event. He lost. By one point.
Of course its hard to know just who a sports book is betting against.
I was focusing more on Blackjack APs.
If casinos didn't give comps, there would be fewer APs.
There is even a blackjack blog that wallows in "breaking even" due to Comps and calls it a Blackjack Vacation. Milking a casino for Comps to "just about break even" is technically an Advantage Play but I tend to think of Advantage Players as players who make a substantial income by playing, not just milking comps to squeak by one step ahead of the next whim of some host.
Of course its hard to know just who a sports book is betting against.
I was focusing more on Blackjack APs.
If casinos didn't give comps, there would be fewer APs.
There is even a blackjack blog that wallows in "breaking even" due to Comps and calls it a Blackjack Vacation. Milking a casino for Comps to "just about break even" is technically an Advantage Play but I tend to think of Advantage Players as players who make a substantial income by playing, not just milking comps to squeak by one step ahead of the next whim of some host.
August 16th, 2012 at 7:21:05 AM
permalink
AP's don't always play rated.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
August 16th, 2012 at 1:39:05 PM
permalink
Quote: FleaStiffThere is even a blackjack blog that wallows in "breaking even" due to Comps and calls it a Blackjack Vacation. Milking a casino for Comps to "just about break even" is technically an Advantage Play
Huh. That's exactly how I've been playing Baccarat for years. I never would have considered it AP; I just don't mind as much if I don't come out ahead at the tables if I get meals, a suite, and airfare comped. I don't even think of it as comp hustling. (For it to be a comp hustle, at least as I understand the term, I would have to always bet Banker while an accomplice always bet Player with funds that we'd pooled and split beforehand. The idea being that we'd come out only minus the Banker commissions, but way ahead on comps.)
All this time I thought I was doing what everyone else was and it turns out that some people consider it AP. Can't say that I agree with that assessment, but different people define things differently.
August 16th, 2012 at 1:48:56 PM
permalink
Quote: heatherHuh. That's exactly how I've been playing Baccarat for years. I never would have considered it AP; I just don't mind as much if I don't come out ahead at the tables if I get meals, a suite, and airfare comped. I don't even think of it as comp hustling. (For it to be a comp hustle, at least as I understand the term, I would have to always bet Banker while an accomplice always bet Player with funds that we'd pooled and split beforehand. The idea being that we'd come out only minus the Banker commissions, but way ahead on comps.)
All this time I thought I was doing what everyone else was and it turns out that some people consider it AP. Can't say that I agree with that assessment, but different people define things differently.
Over the course of your Baccarat career, do you think you've received comps roughly equal to your total losses? Because I would find that surprising. Even the most generous casinos can't afford to comp near 100% of expected loss or they wouldn't make money even on the whales.
I usually think of "comp hustling" with respect to blackjack as counting but using a reduced spread so as to avoid heat and backoffs. With a conservative spread, say 1-4, you could probably come close to break even, avoid major heat, and rake in the comps. This kind of play isn't really possible with a game like Baccarat, although I think you have a great strategy of having fun at the tables and enjoying the comps, win or lose.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
August 16th, 2012 at 1:50:26 PM
permalink
Quote: AcesAndEightsOver the course of your Baccarat career, do you think you've received comps roughly equal to your total losses? Because I would find that surprising. Even the most generous casinos can't afford to comp near 100% of expected loss or they wouldn't make money even on the whales.
Also, there is the issue of a comps "face value" verses the "actual money lost by the casino." A weekend suite comp may be worth $XXX to the player based on how much he would have paid, but how much does the casino actually lose if that room were going to be left empty? Same with buffet comps, etc.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
August 16th, 2012 at 2:01:24 PM
permalink
Quote: 1BBAP's don't always play rated.
I have never been comped. I don't ask and I don't sign up.
August 16th, 2012 at 2:15:16 PM
permalink
Quote: rainmanI have never been comped. I don't ask and I don't sign up.
Me neither. People seem to get tied up in knots
over comps and are always worried about them
and talking about them. I never wanted to mess
with it and don't regret it al all. My wife gets them
on the slots, big deal. She blows thru whatever
she gets in the first 15min she's there anyway.
And why would I want to stay in a hotel for free
when my bed is 30min away.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 16th, 2012 at 2:32:59 PM
permalink
Quote: EvenBobMe neither. People seem to get tied up in knots
over comps and are always worried about them
and talking about them. I never wanted to mess
with it and don't regret it al all. My wife gets them
on the slots, big deal. She blows thru whatever
she gets in the first 15min she's there anyway.
And why would I want to stay in a hotel for free
when my bed is 30min away.
My thoughts exactly. I can always win an extra hand or two and make more than their lousy comps. It doesn't work every time obviously but you get the picture.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
August 16th, 2012 at 2:40:17 PM
permalink
That is perhaps the problem: we are not sufficiently precise in our usage of the terminology.Quote: heatherCan't say that I agree with that assessment, but different people define things differently.
I know some couples who do indeed "hustle comps", a term which involves comps being the main decision making factor in their play. They do indeed pretend not to know each other and have separate rooms with separately numbered and named accounts. I don't know if the casinos are really fooled by this or not but each partner gets comped well despite their technically not being "at risk" for the funds wagered.
Playing Basic Strategy and Varying Bets in Blackjack is Comp Hustling. Playing Baccarat does not involve any strategy. Despite all those Chinese doodlers filling out the forms, any "trend" is a hopeful view of history. Even couples who each get mailers and who pool coupons for a Do/Don't Straddle can be termed to be "comp hustling" even though its twice a month and at a low dollar level.
August 16th, 2012 at 3:44:28 PM
permalink
Quote: AcesAndEightsOver the course of your Baccarat career, do you think you've received comps roughly equal to your total losses? Because I would find that surprising.
Arrgh, don't make me think about things like that; it's not good for me. Point taken, though; I'm not actually totalling up wins and losses and deducting the value of comps against the same. It would be more like AP if I were, and if making the comps total or exceed my losses were my goal (which it isn't). For me, the comps just keep the losses from being painful, and make the trip more fun overall. (Ten or twelve years ago I used to get show tickets comped; what ever happened to that? Sometimes the shows were the most memorable part of the trip.) You make a good point regarding relative value, too; the room that I booked for $170/night does not cost the casino $170/night to comp me, unless their hotel is fully booked (which I doubt often happens).
