AP Claim Credibility

A Poll

I think most of us take claims of AP ability with a grain of salt. At the same time, it's pretty bad form to pounce on any particular person claiming such, and denounce it without any evidence.

But I'm curious how many of these claims we see are really accepted. There's more than one criteria that can start the doubts, but to just stick to one, how about income? So the question to answer in the poll is, at what level does your BS Radar start flickering?

Anything over a grand a month causes suspicion, but basically I evaluate the totality of the claims, putting some weight on how the poster portrays himself / herself (put in context).

Pretty easy to spot a B.S. artist.

Quote: MrV

Anything over a grand a month causes suspicion, but basically I evaluate the totality of the claims, putting some weight on how the poster portrays himself / herself (put in context).

Pretty easy to spot a B.S. artist.

I don't know what to say, MrV. Your tolerance for BS with AP's is ridiculously low. My top was $8,000 a day. This month I'm making $3,000 a day although I am only working one day a week as I'm taking a rest from all the traveling.

A thousand a month? Really? I live off AP. My rent is paid, my bills are paid, I have a girlfriend twenty years younger than me (and yeah, that's a bill unto itself). I live well off AP.

Okay, mods, there should be some way to edit the damn vote. I clicked on the wrong one. My vote was for millions per year as the BS meter.

Should be two votes for millions per year.

Quote: darkoz

I don't know what to say, MrV. Your tolerance for BS with AP's is ridiculously low. My top was $8,000 a day. This month I'm making $3,000 a day although I am only working one day a week as I'm taking a rest from all the traveling.

A thousand a month? Really? I live off AP. My rent is paid, my bills are paid, I have a girlfriend twenty years younger than me (and yeah, that's a bill unto itself). I live well off AP.

You've pegged my B.S. meter.

If in fact you made the kind of money you claim to earn via AP you'd own a home not rent one.

Smart guys with enough money own a home: it helps out come tax time, and it's a good investment.

But hey, it's the internet: whatever.

Isn't it great to live in a world in which it's possible to not have to, let alone want to, work or play for the gambling industry? And to not furthermore thus publicly con yourself into believing you're having fun or ethically taking important secrets to the grave? One in which it's about as much actual productive fun to just think about it, and to "interact" with those who become otherwise caught up in it?

AP thinking is bounded by the same sort of thinking as is any endeavor, but a far cry from the technical postdoctoral research. Just because also AP's apply their knowledge doesn't mean also they do so at the highest level of functioning. Even magicians show their life's work, and make it available in lessons and books for sale to the few who really care about it. A far cry too from constantly surfing internet gambling forums and casinos; and being the next "first" thus smart person to think of something bland.

Little wonder that we end up with so many people on the internet with so many symptoms of psychologically severed head and body. Almost schizophrenic, for the "advanced" cases. Perhaps, the primary reason that gambling boards are as sensitive as this one to remarks directed more at posters' well-being than at attempting to analyze and correct what is, essentially, gibberish.

I am very satisfied with the thought that the "regular" AP's here are successful enough to make anywhere from a living (getting by) to a decent living. None of them really have outrageous claims and every one of the regulars has admitted at one time or another to a long losing streak, which would be expected. I don't really care whether they own a home or not...homes may be a good investment with tax advantages, but gambling as a job is a tough income to prove. If they don't buy a house with a mortgage, it isn't as good of an investment. They may make more money elsewhere.

All that being said, it seems like a tough lifestyle because you have to stay under the radar in order to keep it going in most cases.

If anyone claimed only that they only won and never lost or that they won millions, I'd be skeptical. Anyone who comes on here and says they have a great way of doing it makes me skeptical.

Umm. Why is there no choice between $5000 per month and $10,000 per month? It goes from 1-5000, to next choice is $10,000+.

Personally if you are going to do this, I would prefer yearly averages. It is a strange thing that we have monthly averages and then the last choice is yearly?

Finally, as I stated earlier. I am not that concerned with credibility. It doesn't take me long to decide who I believe knows what they are talking about and who is just talking.

Quote: RonC

If anyone claimed only that they one or that they won millions, I'd be skeptical. Anyone who comes on here and says they have a great way of doing it makes me skeptical.

Think of Phil Ivey, who won $12M at Crockfords and $9M at Revel edge sorting baccarat. Think of Don Johnson who won $15 beating loss rebates in AC. You think they're the only ones who made millions beating table games? Don't be naive.

Quote: teliot

Think of Phil Ivey, who won $12M at Crockfords and $9M at Revel edge sorting baccarat. Think of Don Johnson who won $15 beating loss rebates in AC. You think they're the only ones who made millions beating table games? Don't be naive.

I'm not being naive. My BS meter flickering is not the same as not believing that if can happen. That was the question. I am sure a good number of people have won millions. I am just saying that it would take me a while to believe a new member who just appeared and said that they won millions. Especially if they said they never lost.

Quote: RonC

If anyone claimed only that they only won and never lost or that they won millions, I'd be skeptical. Anyone who comes on here and says they have a great way of doing it makes me skeptical.

Won millions...that would be sweet! :) I am still working on million number 1. It's funny, when I started my AP career, I had a 10 year, million dollar plan (playing blackjack). I am finishing my 12th year and am still probably 2 years away (possible 2016 with a really strong year, but most likely sometime in 2017).

And really what is a million dollars these days. Sounds like a lot. Used to be a lot. But a million dollars over 13, 14, 15 years, is just a living wage. A decent living wage, but it's not a retire early type thing that it used to be.

Quote: RonC

I'm not being naive. My BS meter flickering is not the same as not believing that if can happen. That was the question. I am sure a good number of people have won millions. I am just saying that it would take me a while to believe a new member who just appeared and said that they won millions. Especially if they said they never lost.

In that case, knowing who the poster is, I completely agree with your skepticism.

Regarding members coming here who are playing at the millions-per-year level, there are a few here. Sho55 is at that level (I am sure his team is well over 1M per year). He more or less brags about it, so I am not giving anything away in his case. A few others I won't mention. No recent or new members at that level, that's for sure.

Quote: MrV

You've pegged my B.S. meter.

If in fact you made the kind of money you claim to earn via AP you'd own a home not rent one.

Smart guys with enough money own a home: it helps out come tax time, and it's a good investment.

But hey, it's the internet: whatever.

Unless you live 365 in free hotel rooms with no need for the overhead

Don Johnson did not I repeat did not win anywhere close to 15 million that is utter bs written in the papers - anyone that knows him will be the first to tell you that. In fact he will be the first to tell you he wish that streak didn't happen as it has made him less in the long run. His ap experience goes back over 30 years with working at parx race track and running the bingo rooms- very little of which is written about

He won without using the "supposed" rebates also. I say supposed because there is no proof he got them. I'm certain there's more to the story then he's told the public.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

He won without using the "supposed" rebates also. I say supposed because there is no proof he got them. I'm certain there's more to the story then he's told the public.

Absolutely

My opinion is that there are probably a couple-few thousand people out there making a living out of AP, to varying degrees of success, much the same as in the paycheck world. Most of them keep their heads down and their mouths shut, as befitting their profession, which depends on doing it quietly.

Of those who talk about it here, I would imagine it is the same. Some are more successful than others, but I wouldn't doubt anyone who says they make a decent buck at it. There's no reason to doubt them. I make a decent buck at what I do, better than some and not as good as others. There's no reason for them to doubt me.

I don't doubt after a couple of years here, that there are folks out there making large amounts of money. I don't think income level claimed is the first thing that gets my ever-more-refined BS meter pegging, though, so I took the last option.

Quote: darkoz

This month I'm making $3,000 a day although I am only working one day a week as I'm taking a rest from all the traveling.
I live well off AP.

Quote:

So the question to answer in the poll is, at what level does your BS Radar start flickering?

All the house lights are flashing. Two flourescent tubes just blew and I hear sirens and bells from all directions
:o)

People can believe what they want.
Gambling has probably more story-tellers than average (but plenty of people doing regular jobs also live the fake high-life & lie about their salary/wealth).

I made a few posts in 2015, because I felt I should give something back to this community.
For the past 5 years, I've been reading posts here & gotten lots of tips to improve my strategy.

Trying to balance "giving back" with "keeping things under wraps".

...it's up to the people here. I can easily go back to "quiet mode" and never post.

P.S. Some WSOP players are very public about their slot AP stuff.
They post jackpots on social media.

Let's throw out at least one name, mamat, to whet the forum's appetite.

Huck Seed: chased and hit a 6,707 credit progressive Royal Flush on a $100 FP Bonus Poker Machine (Aria LV) in 2011. Hourly rate was somewhere between $1,500 and $2,500.

Chauncey can you please please please change your avatar to this????

http://i.imgur.com/CqOQzIP.jpg

Quote: mamat

People can believe what they want.
Gambling has probably more story-tellers than average (but plenty of people doing regular jobs also live the fake high-life & lie about their salary/wealth).

I made a few posts in 2015, because I felt I should give something back to this community.
For the past 5 years, I've been reading posts here & gotten lots of tips to improve my strategy.

Trying to balance "giving back" with "keeping things under wraps".

...it's up to the people here. I can easily go back to "quiet mode" and never post.

P.S. Some WSOP players are very public about their slot AP stuff.
They post jackpots on social media.

Is kessler posting JP's? If so can you pm me a link?

Quote: chaunceyb3

Let's throw out at least one name, mamat, to whet the forum's appetite.

Huck Seed: chased and hit a 6,707 credit progressive Royal Flush on a $100 FP Bonus Poker Machine (Aria LV) in 2011. Hourly rate was somewhere between $1,500 and $2,500.

You don't need a high hourly rate to make millions.
I heard some MIT BJ teams only made about $50/hr including training/travel/etc...
Don't have personal knowledge of this, although a high school friend dated a lady who was on one MIT team.
I've been talking about "overall average hourly rate...including scouting, travel, playing, etc..."

Two $10,000 must-hits were abandoned in the 9,980-9,990 range.
Considering 15 min play time, $30,000-35,000/hr hourly rate.

A lady abandoned a $500 must-hit in 2011 at 499.88 (crazy huh? $0.12 or $48 coin-in, 16 bets at max bet for guaranteed payout).
2 min? $15,000/hr.

From ancient times, imagine what the hourly rate is on $25 & $100 Double Diamond Mines (still know one casino with 2 $1 Double Diamond Mines).

Quote: mamat

From ancient times, imagine what the hourly rate is on $25 & $100 Double Diamond Mines (still know one casino with 2 $1 Double Diamond Mines).

Seriously? Don't tease me Ill give you enough so that technically you would be making thousands per Hr just for the information.

NVM I don't want to hone in on Exotor's machine buying offers. Ill let them make the big bucks. Besides I have a super secret $1 Cherry pie and DM at Sassy sally's.

Quote: kewlj

Umm. Why is there no choice between $5000 per month and $10,000 per month? It goes from 1-5000, to next choice is $10,000+.

Personally if you are going to do this, I would prefer yearly averages. It is a strange thing that we have monthly averages and then the last choice is yearly?

Finally, as I stated earlier. I am not that concerned with credibility. It doesn't take me long to decide who I believe knows what they are talking about and who is just talking.

Poorly designed poll, oops. Unfixable for obvious reasons. Hopefully everyone modifies 1-5000 to 1-10000 automatically ... I intended a monthly figure to translate to annual [not just to mean one month making money and 11 months dead]

Object lesson: taking more care with un-editable whatevers ...

PS: for me any claim of 10000+ per month twitches the meter - tempered by knowing some do. Just saying I grab for the grain of salt.

Some slot APs are really dedicated to their craft.
Here are some examples.

1-6) <edited>

Some illegal things people do
1) Russians have some cool gadgets. :-)
2) Grabbing hundreds of slot cards, and using google/Internet to find their info.
- In 2013, casino started issuing cards with last name initials after this. Most still use full names.
3) Cashing out comps from other people's cards.
- With a confederate working in a restaurant, when someone pays cash, they use a stolen players card.
- Some people offer cash for high-level players cards (e.g. need hispanic male Seven Stars, white female Elite)
- I know both sides of this scam. Someone wiped out $90 of my comps at one casino.

My Harrah's host suggested having regular player cards printed.
Keep one high-level card to show staff, but play with Harrah gold cards.

Some people take their real name off their players cards.
They use a nickname or initials.

Quote: mamat

. Someone wiped out $90 of my comps at one casino.

Actually it was only $89.

Quote: AxelWolf

Seriously? Don't tease me Ill give you enough so that technically you would be making thousands per Hr just for the information.

Another casino just removed their Double Diamond Mine two months ago.
It was only a five-line 0.25 DDM though.

I've hit three doubles on the $1 DDM betting $2...for $1,600.
and many 2X Red7 Red7.

Imagine hitting those on a $100 DDM for $160,000-$240,000.
I started too late to see the high denomination DDMs & Cherry Pies.

Last Cherry Pies I saw were maybe 2012-2013 - Primm's (outside Vegas, $1 single pie) & Islands (downtown Vegas, $1 double pie).
Treasure Island had two $0.25 double pies for a long time (maybe 2011-2012?)

Quote: mamat

Another casino just removed their Double Diamond Mine two months ago.
It was only a five-line 0.25 DDM though.

I've hit three doubles on the $1 DDM betting $2...for $1,600.
and many 2X Red7 Red7.

Imagine hitting those on a $100 DDM for $160,000-$240,000.
I started too late to see the high denomination DDMs & Cherry Pies.

Last Cherry Pies I saw were maybe 2012-2013 - Primm's (outside Vegas, $1 single pie) & Islands (downtown Vegas, $1 double pie).
Treasure Island had two $0.25 double pies for a long time (maybe 2011-2012?)

Sassy Sallys or whatever its called now. It's out now things will never be the same.

Quote: mamat

Some slot APs are really dedicated to their craft.
Here are some examples.

1)
2) .
3)
4)
5)
6)

Some illegal things people do
1) Russians have some cool gadgets. :-)
2) Grabbing hundreds of slot cards, and using google/Internet to find their info.
- In 2013, casino started issuing cards with last name initials after this. Most still use full names.
3) Cashing out comps from other people's cards.
- With a confederate working in a restaurant, when someone pays cash, they use a stolen players card.
- Some people offer cash for high-level players cards (e.g. need hispanic male Seven Stars, white female Elite)
- I know both sides of this scam. Someone wiped out $90 of my comps at one casino.

MEGA *SIGH* Let's not disseminate information especially stuff that may scare the hell out of casinos.

I remember Sigma years ago stopped giving out locations of their machines without credentials because of this.

edit: someone(an idiot) foolishly abused it and said the wrong things. I'm sure that stunt cost us a significant amount of money. Information in the hands of a foolish person can do much harm.

Quote: mamat

Another casino just removed their Double Diamond Mine two months ago.
It was only a five-line 0.25 DDM though.

I've hit three doubles on the $1 DDM betting $2...for $1,600.
and many 2X Red7 Red7.

Imagine hitting those on a $100 DDM for $160,000-$240,000.
I started too late to see the high denomination DDMs & Cherry Pies.

Last Cherry Pies I saw were maybe 2012-2013 - Primm's (outside Vegas, $1 single pie) & Islands (downtown Vegas, $1 double pie).
Treasure Island had two $0.25 double pies for a long time (maybe 2011-2012?)

The best I got on a Vision machine was about $3200 on $5 one at the Bellagio. I cant remember the name of it but it's kinda more rare than most. It's the one that adds the different machines symbols when you get the spin thing. it spins in the vision window completing rows(5 or 6 spots per row?) as your spin matches the symbols each row gives you a specific amount for like 200 coins on completing red 7'n or something like that. Sometimes it would go for a while. They always were good to me.

Quote: MrV

Smart guys with enough money own a home: it helps out come tax time, and it's a good investment.

Smart guys with money own *other* peoples' homes. :) For example, Darkoz's home.

That was pretty funny teddy

Quote: mamat

Two $10,000 must-hits were abandoned in the 9,980-9,990 range.
Considering 15 min play time, $30,000-35,000/hr hourly rate.

Even if broke, I would call a friend to come sit in my place. Sell my seat. Something! I wouldn't be trottin' off on my unmerry way.

Having an advantage does not mean you are making any significant amount of money.

Knowing to only Vulture Ultimate X machines I would consider to be an advantage play. But that doesn't mean you will win anything.

Counting cards,at blackjack doesn't mean you can bet enough to win a lot.

Being able to influence dice doesn't mean your roll will last forever and you will leave the casino a millionaire.

I accept that players can have many advantages.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Having an advantage does not mean you are making any significant amount of money.

Knowing to only Vulture Ultimate X machines I would consider to be an advantage play. But that doesn't mean you will win anything.

Counting cards,at blackjack doesn't mean you can bet enough to win a lot.

Being able to influence dice doesn't mean your roll will last forever and you will leave the casino a millionaire.

I accept that players can have many advantages.

So....you don't think people are winning because of their advantage? What does the word "advantage" mean to you, then?

If I have a significant advantage and wager a significant amount of money....do you think I'll end up winning, losing, or is it 50/50 proposition?

Advantage means you're making smarter bets. I'm waiting for an "AP" to show me he makes more than $200,000 a year in casinos.

How about more than $100,000 a year in casinos?

Okay, more than $60,000 a year in casinos?

I will agree anyone making smarter bets is an advantage player. You'll have to show me proof that it's paying "good money."

Quote: AlanMendelson

Having an advantage does not mean you are making any significant amount of money.

Being able to influence dice doesn't mean your roll will last forever and you will leave the casino a millionaire.

I accept that players can have many advantages.

You are in the minority on this board on the issue of DI: nice try there including it with REAL forms of AP.

Alan, quit putting lipstick on that pig!

Deleted. (changed mind)

For the record I live in New York City.

I don't own a car.

I don't own a house.

I don't have a smart phone.

I don't even have a television.

These are my choices based on lifestyle and my exposure growing up. Neither of my parents drove or owned a home so I have no interest in that stuff either. To me a phone should be for making phone calls so I have a $10 dumb phone. I used to own a $40,000 home theater system but I pawned that off over a decade ago when my film business went sour.

I do have a comic book collection of over 3000+. That's where my real interest goes most of the time and to taking my grandkids to amusement parks, paid for courtesy of the casino.

Why owning a home would be proof of an AP is beyond me. The whole economic downturn in 2008 was because most people who had homes COULDN"T afford them.

Quote: darkoz

For the record I live in New York City.

Now we just feel 'bad' for you. :)

Quote: kewlj

Now we just feel 'bad' for you. :)

Lol, it's a New York thing.

I did live in LA for a few years when at the top of my game in the film business.

I was the only person in the entire film lab I worked at that was taking the bus and subway to work every day.

Quote: kewlj

BTW, making $60,000 a year in a casino is a pretty low threshold. It doesn't take all that much effort, and even less skill to make mid 5 figures a year, if you have a little bit of bankroll.

$60,000/yr is only +175 EV/day.

Above $100K-$120K requires a $5,000 bankroll...
however, a $5,000 bankroll can be saved in 1-2 months.

-----
On the low end, I once saw a "gamblers challenge" on the internet.

Drop you in Vegas for a month with $100 and no car.
You must have a hotel/hostel room to sleep in every night.
End of the month have $500 in your pocket.

------
It's a good bootstrapping challenge. Do it as a hobby.
1) Learn how to turn $100 into $500.
2) Turn $500 into $5,000. (Maybe 90% of slot APs can't do this.)
3) Turn $5,000 into $50,000. (We're talking <2% of APs).
4) Turn $50,000 into $500,000. (<0.3% of APs)
5) Turn $500,000 into $5 million. (Hard for most to believe...)
6) Turn $5 million into $50 million. (Beyond the land of slot APs, but doable in poker. Most slot APs are investing in real estate, stocks, & startups at this level).
7) Turn $50 million into $500 million. (Usually requires starting a company... or being a famous musician/sports star or running a country).
8) Turn $500 million into $5 billion (Internet startup land)
9) Turn $5 billion into $50 billion (Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page land).

I learned about slots in 2009 from Vegas guys who were at step 0.
0) Turn $0 into $100. Do slots when you are broke....to get a place to sleep, some food, and extra cash...

*** Money management skills are more important than playing skills. ***
*** Lot of perpetually broke guys (e.g. 10-20 times/month) know how to make $300-1,000/day... and still have no house, no car, no bank account, etc...
*** "How to save" money is critical. Overbetting bankroll is so common it's ridiculous (Risk of Ruin).

Casinos love gamblers who overbet their bankroll.
Probably a major reason they let slot/blackjack APs and wannabe-APs play...

Quote: AlanMendelson

Advantage means you're making smarter bets. I'm waiting for an "AP" to show me he makes more than $200,000 a year in casinos.

How about more than $100,000 a year in casinos?

Okay, more than $60,000 a year in casinos?

I will agree anyone making smarter bets is an advantage player. You'll have to show me proof that it's paying "good money."

And what would one get for showing you that? What's the benefit ? Either someone can't show you because they really cant do it. Or they can and just showed you something very valuable.

I could show/tell you about JUST ONE play recently that's now over (but could be somewhere else) Once I explained it and showed proof it existed, you would say it's impossible someone didn't make at least 60k for the year.

I'M NOT MAKING CLAIMS THIS DID OR DIDN'T HAPPEN TO ME OR ANYONE I KNOW.

Explain why I should do this? What would you offer? 10K for proof? not that that would be enough.

Quote: odiousgambit

A Poll

I think most of us take claims of AP ability with a grain of salt. At the same time, it's pretty bad form to pounce on any particular person claiming such, and denounce it without any evidence.

But I'm curious how many of these claims we see are really accepted. There's more than one criteria that can start the doubts, but to just stick to one, how about income? So the question to answer in the poll is, at what level does your BS Radar start flickering?

It really depends, in my mind, what type of "AP" we are talking about.

Saying you make 30k/yr as an APBJ, totally believable. Saying you make 30k/yr as a DI, complete and utter lie unless you're playing at a good chunk of table max and have MILLIONS for a BR. 30k/yr as a VP-PRO, I'm not going to buy that one at all either, unless you're absorbing comp values into your equation. 30k/yr as a machine hustler/VUXer? Seriously doubt that since most of them tend to just gamble the profits away.

Now, if you have financial discipline and combine "all the arts" , its certainly possible to clear 10k/mo, but I just don't see any single human being doing that, unless they are playing much higher stakes with a much, much bigger bankroll. A two man group of an AP/Hustler mix would probably be the best bet for clearing 10k/mo if they had enough stores or traveled enough.

Quote: MrV

Anything over a grand a month causes suspicion, but basically I evaluate the totality of the claims, putting some weight on how the poster portrays himself / herself (put in context).

Pretty easy to spot a B.S. artist.

How do you figure over a grand a month to cause suspicion? That's only ~$35/day. If you combined the value of all of my mailers every month I'm nearly triple that amount alone.

Quote: darkoz

I don't know what to say, MrV. Your tolerance for BS with AP's is ridiculously low. My top was $8,000 a day. This month I'm making $3,000 a day although I am only working one day a week as I'm taking a rest from all the traveling.

A thousand a month? Really? I live off AP. My rent is paid, my bills are paid, I have a girlfriend twenty years younger than me (and yeah, that's a bill unto itself). I live well off AP.

Define "was 8,000 a day", the poll is put into more of an "average" sense over what I'm guessing to be a monthly breakdown over a year or several years. I don't think he's talking about one day, and if you're bringing down $3k a day, multiple days a week, I'm going to personally be skeptic of that myself.

Even in the absolute height of the "haydays" for us in the last decade, most guys would cap out at about $1k/day and it would only last for about 2-3 months before they were 86'd or the machine was brought down, and you probably know which one I'm talking about.

Quote: AxelWolf

Seriously? Don't tease me Ill give you enough so that technically you would be making thousands per Hr just for the information.

NVM I don't want to hone in on Exotor's machine buying offers. Ill let them make the big bucks. Besides I have a super secret $1 Cherry pie and DM at Sassy sally's.

Its funny you should say that, I actually bought an ainsworth at 1am this morning up north at a ridiculously high number so that I'd get the shot at the machine instead of the two randoms next to the person playing. Spent $100 to get the machine, cost me ~950ish before the $49xx.xx came down :P

Quote: mamat

$60,000/yr is only +175 EV/day.

Above $100K-$120K requires a $5,000 bankroll...
however, a $5,000 bankroll can be saved in 1-2 months.

-----
On the low end, I once saw a "gamblers challenge" on the internet.

Drop you in Vegas for a month with $100 and no car.
You must have a hotel/hostel room to sleep in every night.
End of the month have $500 in your pocket.

------
It's a good bootstrapping challenge. Do it as a hobby.
1) Learn how to turn $100 into $500.
2) Turn $500 into $5,000. (Maybe 90% of slot APs can't do this.)
3) Turn $5,000 into $50,000. (We're talking <2% of APs).
4) Turn $50,000 into $500,000. (<0.3% of APs)
5) Turn $500,000 into $5 million. (Hard for most to believe...)
6) Turn $5 million into $50 million. (Beyond the land of slot APs, but doable in poker. Most slot APs are investing in real estate, stocks, & startups at this level).
7) Turn $50 million into $500 million. (Usually requires starting a company... or being a famous musician/sports star or running a country).
8) Turn $500 million into $5 billion (Internet startup land)
9) Turn $5 billion into $50 billion (Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page land).

I learned about slots in 2009 from Vegas guys who were at step 0.
0) Turn $0 into $100. Do slots when you are broke....to get a place to sleep, some food, and extra cash...

*** Money management skills are more important than playing skills. ***
*** Lot of perpetually broke guys (e.g. 10-20 times/month) know how to make $300-1,000/day... and still have no house, no car, no bank account, etc...
*** "How to save" money is critical. Overbetting bankroll is so common it's ridiculous (Risk of Ruin).

Its interesting you should mention 0) there, because that's exactly what my mentor taught me. He showed me the ropes, what to work the most on when you're "broke", what to check most often to make a buck, etc.

Here's where that mentality broke down between us. I was never broke, if I made a dollar, that dollar went into the bank. Unlike my mentor and most of my counterparts/acquaintances I always put that money in the bank.

That being said, I don't necessarily believe in those challenges, anybody can turn $500-$5,000 in a casino, not many can keep the $4,500 in profit, and do it over and over again.

On January 1st of this year, I stepped foot into Casino X, stuck a $20 bill in, worked for about 14 hours that day, made ~$750 and never looked back. Here I am on 10/26/2015, just got home at about Midnight from my trip up north, and I'm at $86,xxx.xx in profits for the year, and technically I can claim that it all came from a single $20 bill, since I never spent the profits, never went "backwards" and needed to actually use my BR. Wash, rinse, repeat, bank a few hundred a day and move on. That isn't to say that I've never lost this year, its just the fact that my losses are exceptionally rare now (maybe 5 or 6 times this entire year) and are now generally very small with one outlier all year that barely dipped into four figures, before being made back less than 48 hours later. Rarely does a casino require me to actually use more than $20-40 before I'm well into profits for the day. In some exceptionally rare cases (machine-wise) I'll start my day off with a $100 bill instead of a $20 and the results are the same, some machines just require a few more bucks to roll through adequately.

And I think, personally, that defines the difference in most AP's, and honestly, I'd break it down to this.

The levels of AP's

1. The value seekers: The guys who basically just want to extend their cash a little further and gamble on it a little longer, but still know (most of the time) when they are in an advantage situation.


2. The part timers: Guys who know how to AP in one art form or another, but are otherwise engaged in other affairs, like a Family, a well paying job, and/or their significant other. For these guys, its about making a few extra bucks and generally "winding down" from the stresses of every day life by shutting off emotions and robotically plying their trade to make a few bucks to bring back home to the misses. ------------These guys make up the largest pool of APBJ players----


3a. The Underfunded: These guys are your broke dead end job types, retired folks, and homeless guys who have nothing better to do in their "off time" than try to make a few bucks a day to keep things going. They tend to enjoy the environment they are in, more than what they are actually doing. ---------These guys tend to be the Vultures/VUXers types, and generally don't want to lose more than a few dollars per day because that is all they can afford. They know they are selling themselves short in what they do (3x1 on ten play UX, c'mon man) but they prefer the life of low risk, low reward. -------------These guys make up the largest pool of Vultures/VUXers/Machine Hustlers-------------

3b. DI's: These guys don't generally exist in the real world, and are more of a combination of multiple variants of AP, usually somewhere between part time card counters and a comp hustler. The few "true" DI's that exist, don't make a whole lot year after year, and generally don't play a whole lot. These guys are typically in and out for a few hundred and you don't see them very often, though you'll know you're in their company when you've found one.


4. The Comp Hustlers and VP Pro: These guys are your 9-5er type casino players. They come in every day there is a multiplier, sometimes running multiple cards, and will grind away at a very low % advantage for daily, weekly, monthly, yearly winnings. These guys are the types who play full pay or near full pay VP machines and various other high % advantage slots to acquire more money in slotplay, mailers, and comps than they spend. And generally leave the building very close to even or slightly up for the day ------These guys make up the second largest pool of Vultures/VUXers/Machine Hustlers---------

5. The Machine AP: These guys are rare to find. They know the ins and outs of every casino they step foot in. They walk miles and miles and miles a day and go through shoes and socks like nobodies business, always on the go checking all of their machines for advantages or waiting for them to enter an advantage range or state prior to play. You'll commonly find these guys making frequent stops by you if you are on a pay by progressive that is very high, and you'll often spot them over your shoulder waiting for you to cash out and leave. Though they are obvious to spot the greater the advantage, especially when they are waiting to get on one, they are commonly confused with Comp Hustlers since they check and frequent the same machines. Chances are if you have someone over your shoulder, he is more likely a comp hustler/random player, than an actual Machine AP. The difference between them tends to be their daily $wagered, as they tend to not play at all until they find a perceived advantage and generally don't settle on low% advantage plays like full pay VP on multiplier days. ----------These guys make up the second smallest pool of Vultures/VUXers/Machine Hustlers---------

6: The full time CC: This guy is exceptionally rare. Full time card counters are few and far between, and often only "hit" certain locations at certain times, for a small period or window, and often rotate a large amount of casinos into their routines as they know that they need to fly under the radar as much as possible to continue. They are by all accounts, the best AP's in the business considering the risks they have to manage daily compared to others. -------These guys make up the smallest pool of APBJ's----------

7: Player X: Player X has no name because he doesn't generally exist. The true Unicorn of the AP world. This guy has every advantage play in the book memorized. He's part card counter, part comp hustler, part vulture, part VUXer, part Machine AP. Since player X generally doesn't exist, its hard to "spot" a player X. Have you ever been in the casino and cashed out of a machine just for someone to walk right up after you and hit a big win and then cash out and leave? That's generally the feeling you'll get around player x. You won't know he's there, because he doesn't want you to know he's there, but he's generally the first one to every major advantage play. In many cases, he's the only one who knows about the advantage play being there in the first place. Player X is what many would consider, if they met one, a true "full time AP" with every trick in the book in his bag. When he can't VUX, he's counting, when he's not counting, he's vulturing a bonus machine, when he's not doing that, he might be milking multiplier comps on a full pay VP machine, and when he's not doing that, he might be right over your shoulder or in your blind spot waiting to take your machine the second you get off. ------------Player X's are so incredibly rare, there might be fewer than a dozen in the entire country, I have met very, very few of them, but they do exist. These guys are so "ahead" of the game, that they generally know about an advantage play or machine, long before anyone else ever catches on. A new machine might come out tomorrow, and they'll have 5-6 months of advantage play on it before a "Machine Hustler" or "Comp Hustler" every figures it out.

Quote: AxelWolf

And what would one get for showing you that? What's the benefit ? Either someone can't show you because they really cant do it. Or they can and just showed you something very valuable.

I could show/tell you about JUST ONE play recently that's now over (but could be somewhere else) Once I explained it and showed proof it existed, you would say it's impossible someone didn't make at least 60k for the year.

I'M NOT MAKING CLAIMS THIS DID OR DIDN'T HAPPEN TO ME OR ANYONE I KNOW.

Explain why I should do this? Would you offer? 10K for proof? not that that would be enough.

You're always welcome to run them by me Axel, since you and I are both Machine Pro's from differing areas, I might be able to find your huckleberry :P.

It doesn't matter. Alan's counters are always one of the following:

-That's not advantage play, it's just a casino error.
-That's not possible.
-You can still lose.
-You may be able to do that at one location in a tiny casino in the middle of nowhere for a small amount, but you can't do it at 99%+ of the U.S. casinos.


Alan, you got $90k in the bank, right? Let's make a wager..

I guess I wasn't clear.

Being an advantage player to me means you're making the better bets and maybe you have an edge such as with card counting or vultureing those X video poker games.

You don't have to win to make the bets with an advantage.

Dumb luck alone produces big casino wins.

I know people who claimed to be APS who vultured five cent ultimate x machines and lived with their mothers and didn't have a nickel of their own.

But I still give this guy credit for making advantage plays.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I guess I wasn't clear.

Being an advantage player to me means you're making the better bets and maybe you have an edge such as with card counting or vultureing those X video poker games.

You don't have to win to make the bets with an advantage.

Dumb luck alone produces big casino wins.

I know people who claimed to be APS who vultured five cent ultimate x machines and lived with their mothers and didn't have a nickel of their own.

But I still give this guy credit for making advantage plays.

The advantage part of that, especially in UX is that if you make the advantage plays consistently, you'll win. There's virtually no way to "lose" short of a "math extremist infinite loss theory".

That being said, there will be days where you will get torn up by higher denoms and might make very little, potentially even lose a buck or two, but if you made 100 plays a day for the rest of the year, you'll be up 100% of the time, minus that silly infinite loss theory.

That's a ridiculous statement to say that if you play Ultimate X abandoned multipliers you'll win. You have no control over the RNG. You can play abandoned multipliers for the next 100 years and there is no guarantee you will win -- and every play without a winner is money out of your AP bankroll.

Stop the nonsense. Quit while you're ahead.

Quit by saying playing abandoned multipliers is a smarter play. That makes sense.