The Adventures of MDawg II

Quote: MDawg

What's funny is that in the process of trying to defend a hypothetical scheme he revealed that his actual scheme may be illegal structuring, at least according to AxelWolf.
[

You seem to be very very interested in this sort of thing. Are you some kind of NARC or something?
Or perhaps that explains the Highroller persona, expensive watches, etc? Who are you really working for, what are you really doing?


FYI these are questions, not accusations

Anyways,
I said the casinos and Gaming control or whatever authority in charge may consider it structuring.
I really don't know if they would or not, it's definitely suspicious actively... but that doesn't mean it's illegal. I don't think what DO is describing he has done is illegal structuring.

FYI Checks may also be to the SAR regulations, you might want to do some research on that. It mightn't be mandatory for them to report checks over or under certain amounts, but just because you are using checks doesn't mean it can't be structuring or money laundering activity.

Quote: darkoz

AxelWolf mentioned a group that used DIFFERENT sports books to cash out the same day. The law is actually quite clear on filing CTR. The casino must report if they observe a cash out either over $10,000 at once or in aggregate.

Actually, it was not the same day, it was over a fair amount of time.

I don't think the amount of money, places, or number of days matter when it comes to illegal structuring. The act of intentionally attempting to avoid a CTR is considered illegal structuring regardless of the amounts, places, or days.

From my understanding, you are not intentionally trying to avoid CTRs. You are simply trying to mask your Advantage Play from the casinos. I would assume you're fine however the laws regarding structuring is complicated and nuanced. I say there needs to be intent to circumvent getting CTRed for it to be illegal, but I'm not actually sure if that's the case.

I wonder if one can just file a CTR on themselves prior to doing their thing LOL.

Anyways, as you already know firsthand... when casinos get a bug up their ass they will do and accuse you of all kinds of crazy things even when they are completely wrong and you are 100% innocent. They consistently break the laws and regulations. Oh, the stories I could tell on that stuff alone.

None of this fake back rooming, settlement, broken arm stuff (JK/KJ👨‍🦽🏄‍♂️ )

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

What's funny is that in the process of trying to defend a hypothetical scheme he revealed that his actual scheme may be illegal structuring, at least according to AxelWolf.
[

You seem to be very very interested in this sort of thing. Are you some kind of NARC or something?
Or perhaps that explains the Highroller persona, expensive watches, etc? Who are you really working for, what are you really doing?

FYI these are questions, not accusations

Anyways,
I said the casinos and Gaming control or whatever authority in charge may consider it structuring.
I really don't know if they would or not, it's definitely suspicious actively... but that doesn't mean it's illegal. I don't think what DO is describing he has done is illegal structuring.

FYI Checks may also be to the SAR regulations, you might want to do some research on that. It mightn't be mandatory for them to report checks over or under certain amounts, but just because you are using checks doesn't mean it can't be structuring or money laundering activity.

Quote: darkoz

AxelWolf mentioned a group that used DIFFERENT sports books to cash out the same day. The law is actually quite clear on filing CTR. The casino must report if they observe a cash out either over $10,000 at once or in aggregate.

Actually, it was not the same day, it was over a fair amount of time.

I don't think the amount of money, places, or number of days matter when it comes to illegal structuring. The act of intentionally attempting to avoid a CTR is considered illegal structuring regardless of the amounts, places, or days.

From my understanding, you are not intentionally trying to avoid CTRs. You are simply trying to mask your Advantage Play from the casinos. I would assume you're fine however the laws regarding structuring is complicated and nuanced. I say there needs to be intent to circumvent getting CTRed for it to be illegal, but I'm not actually sure if that's the case.

I wonder if one can just file a CTR on themselves prior to doing their thing LOL.

Anyways, as you already know firsthand... when casinos get a bug up their ass they will do and accuse you of all kinds of crazy things even when they are completely wrong and you are 100% innocent. They consistently break the laws and regulations. Oh, the stories I could tell on that stuff alone.

None of this fake back rooming, settlement, broken arm stuff (JK/KJ👨‍🦽🏄‍♂️ )
link to original post

My opinion is that it would prove a very difficult scenario to convict in trial.

For example the suggestion that I cashed out multiple vouchers that added up over ten grand. True but why did I do that? Because the casino wouldn't allow higher than three thousand per voucher. How is it my fault I had to cash out multiple vouchers?

They could argue why didn't I go the cashier. Simple. Why wait on line when they have convenient redemption machines located everywhere on the gaming floor?

And they were cashed out within view of 2000 casino cameras. CTR requirements are made of surveillance NOT of the player. If I was told I had to file a CTR on myself I would do so. It's the casino that has to be responsible for filing CTR.

In essence the entire case would rely on convincing a jury that simply walking around the gaming floor and cashing vouchers in full view of their cameras at their redemption machines constitutes structuring.

Quote: MDawg

It's very cruel, and very unusual to force anyone to read more than a few rounds of back and forth with D.Oz. Now that's a fact.

As to whether his scheme would work, I already said, I don't believe it would.
link to original post

What the heck are you talking about? This isn't his scheme it's been talked about here before he talked about it. Of course, it can and does work. Casinos have been used to launder money for years and it's being done nowadays. I believe I posted a link about some big-time money laundering where people were using casinos to do so and it was a major problem, it may have been in Canada but you can find higher-profile cases in the US. Will everyone get away with it forever? Obviously not. I suggest there are 100s of millions per year being successfully laundered in casinos.

Advantage players shouldn't need to launder money. But if one did, I suggest it would be very easily done in multiple ways in the casinos and gambling establishments. If you're laundering money in the casinos I assume you only care about SARs and CTRs when money is going in, but you would welcome a CTR when casing out, that's not hard to accomplish.

How much, how often, and how quickly are we talking about? A Million? I believe an average Joe with some knowledge could easily do it in 3 months with almost no chance of being caught. An established AP/gambler with a midrange gambling history could get it done fairly quickly.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

What's funny is that in the process of trying to defend a hypothetical scheme he revealed that his actual scheme may be illegal structuring, at least according to AxelWolf.
[

You seem to be very very interested in this sort of thing. Are you some kind of NARC or something?
Or perhaps that explains the Highroller persona, expensive watches, etc? Who are you really working for, what are you really doing?

FYI these are questions, not accusations

Anyways,
I said the casinos and Gaming control or whatever authority in charge may consider it structuring.
I really don't know if they would or not, it's definitely suspicious actively... but that doesn't mean it's illegal. I don't think what DO is describing he has done is illegal structuring.

FYI Checks may also be to the SAR regulations, you might want to do some research on that. It mightn't be mandatory for them to report checks over or under certain amounts, but just because you are using checks doesn't mean it can't be structuring or money laundering activity.

Quote: darkoz

AxelWolf mentioned a group that used DIFFERENT sports books to cash out the same day. The law is actually quite clear on filing CTR. The casino must report if they observe a cash out either over $10,000 at once or in aggregate.

Actually, it was not the same day, it was over a fair amount of time.

I don't think the amount of money, places, or number of days matter when it comes to illegal structuring. The act of intentionally attempting to avoid a CTR is considered illegal structuring regardless of the amounts, places, or days.

From my understanding, you are not intentionally trying to avoid CTRs. You are simply trying to mask your Advantage Play from the casinos. I would assume you're fine however the laws regarding structuring is complicated and nuanced. I say there needs to be intent to circumvent getting CTRed for it to be illegal, but I'm not actually sure if that's the case.

I wonder if one can just file a CTR on themselves prior to doing their thing LOL.

Anyways, as you already know firsthand... when casinos get a bug up their ass they will do and accuse you of all kinds of crazy things even when they are completely wrong and you are 100% innocent. They consistently break the laws and regulations. Oh, the stories I could tell on that stuff alone.

None of this fake back rooming, settlement, broken arm stuff (JK/KJ👨‍🦽🏄‍♂️ )
link to original post

My opinion is that it would prove a very difficult scenario to convict in trial.

For example the suggestion that I cashed out multiple vouchers that added up over ten grand. True but why did I do that? Because the casino wouldn't allow higher than three thousand per voucher. How is it my fault I had to cash out multiple vouchers?

They could argue why didn't I go the cashier. Simple. Why wait on line when they have convenient redemption machines located everywhere on the gaming floor?

And they were cashed out within view of 2000 casino cameras. CTR requirements are made of surveillance NOT of the player. If I was told I had to file a CTR on myself I would do so. It's the casino that has to be responsible for filing CTR.

In essence the entire case would rely on convincing a jury that simply walking around the gaming floor and cashing vouchers in full view of their cameras at their redemption machines constitutes structuring.
link to original post

I don't disagree with you. I just wouldn't assume nothing bad would/could happen. I think it's worth being extra careful just to avoid the possibility. I certainly wouldn't be blatantly obvious when casing in multiple thousands of dollars in tickets hopping from kiosk to kiosk. Then again, if you look like you are being sneaky about it...

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

What's funny is that in the process of trying to defend a hypothetical scheme he revealed that his actual scheme may be illegal structuring, at least according to AxelWolf.
[

You seem to be very very interested in this sort of thing. Are you some kind of NARC or something?
Or perhaps that explains the Highroller persona, expensive watches, etc? Who are you really working for, what are you really doing?

FYI these are questions, not accusations

Anyways,
I said the casinos and Gaming control or whatever authority in charge may consider it structuring.
I really don't know if they would or not, it's definitely suspicious actively... but that doesn't mean it's illegal. I don't think what DO is describing he has done is illegal structuring.

FYI Checks may also be to the SAR regulations, you might want to do some research on that. It mightn't be mandatory for them to report checks over or under certain amounts, but just because you are using checks doesn't mean it can't be structuring or money laundering activity.

Quote: darkoz

AxelWolf mentioned a group that used DIFFERENT sports books to cash out the same day. The law is actually quite clear on filing CTR. The casino must report if they observe a cash out either over $10,000 at once or in aggregate.

Actually, it was not the same day, it was over a fair amount of time.

I don't think the amount of money, places, or number of days matter when it comes to illegal structuring. The act of intentionally attempting to avoid a CTR is considered illegal structuring regardless of the amounts, places, or days.

From my understanding, you are not intentionally trying to avoid CTRs. You are simply trying to mask your Advantage Play from the casinos. I would assume you're fine however the laws regarding structuring is complicated and nuanced. I say there needs to be intent to circumvent getting CTRed for it to be illegal, but I'm not actually sure if that's the case.

I wonder if one can just file a CTR on themselves prior to doing their thing LOL.

Anyways, as you already know firsthand... when casinos get a bug up their ass they will do and accuse you of all kinds of crazy things even when they are completely wrong and you are 100% innocent. They consistently break the laws and regulations. Oh, the stories I could tell on that stuff alone.

None of this fake back rooming, settlement, broken arm stuff (JK/KJ👨‍🦽🏄‍♂️ )
link to original post

My opinion is that it would prove a very difficult scenario to convict in trial.

For example the suggestion that I cashed out multiple vouchers that added up over ten grand. True but why did I do that? Because the casino wouldn't allow higher than three thousand per voucher. How is it my fault I had to cash out multiple vouchers?

They could argue why didn't I go the cashier. Simple. Why wait on line when they have convenient redemption machines located everywhere on the gaming floor?

And they were cashed out within view of 2000 casino cameras. CTR requirements are made of surveillance NOT of the player. If I was told I had to file a CTR on myself I would do so. It's the casino that has to be responsible for filing CTR.

In essence the entire case would rely on convincing a jury that simply walking around the gaming floor and cashing vouchers in full view of their cameras at their redemption machines constitutes structuring.
link to original post

I don't disagree with you. I just wouldn't assume nothing bad would/could happen. I think it's worth being extra careful just to avoid the possibility. I certainly wouldn't be blatantly obvious when casing in multiple thousands of dollars in tickets hopping from kiosk to kiosk. Then again, if you look like you are being sneaky about it...
link to original post

Yeah that pesky catch-22

Quote: AxelWolf

I spent a significant amount of time playing table games in the 90s.

That's what I figured.

D.Oz when was your table game experience?

Quote: MDawg

Quote: AxelWolf

I spent a significant amount of time playing table games in the 90s.

That's what I figured.
link to original post

Stop quoting out of context. That's a chicken S#LT move. What does that have to do with our latest conversation regarding structuring /Money laundering?

As far as checks, credit markers etc, etc. When it comes to casino standards, protocols, rules, laws, and regulations they are rarely followed to the letter, they are half-assed at best. There are always loopholes and various ways to get around them.

I know for a fact casino managers and hosts do all kinds of things they know are against the LAW, standards, protocols, rules, and regulations.

Quote: MDawg

D.Oz when was your table game experience?
link to original post

To what incident do you refer? I have played table games for the last 27 years. Much more rarely as of late.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

D.Oz when was your table game experience?
link to original post

To what incident do you refer? I have played table games for the last 27 years. Much more rarely as of late.
link to original post

This is how we know he feels as if he's lost the argument.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

Quote: AxelWolf

I spent a significant amount of time playing table games in the 90s.

That's what I figured.
link to original post

Stop quoting out of context. That's a chicken S#LT move. What does that have to do with our latest conversation regarding structuring /Money laundering?

As far as checks, credit markers etc, etc. When it comes to casino standards, protocols, rules, laws, and regulations they are rarely followed to the letter, they are half-assed at best. There are always loopholes and various ways to get around them.

I know for a fact casino managers and hosts do all kinds of things they know are against the LAW, standards, protocols, rules, and regulations.
link to original post

Even your table game experience from thirty years ago has nothing to do with getting casino cage checks. I don't believe that you know anything "for a fact" with regards to this topic.

By your own admission, you have never in your life gotten a casino cage check for a table game win, and you have never in your life had a credit line.

However, it is all YOU all the way, to keep going on and on on a subject with which you have no personal experience.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

D.Oz when was your table game experience?
link to original post

Much more rarely as of late.
link to original post

Exactly. Plus, just like AxelWolf, you have never in your life gotten a check for a table game win. Or had a casino credit line.

Quote: MDawg

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

D.Oz when was your table game experience?
link to original post

Much more rarely as of late.
link to original post

Exactly. Plus, just like AxelWolf, you have never in your life gotten a check for a table game win. Or had a casino credit line.


link to original post

Exactly what?

I never claimed any knowledge of table game checks. I only discussed here checks issued for slot wins.

This conversation just got very weird. You won't answer if you pay taxes and instead ask about an ambiguous unidentified incident about table games, Then claim victory when I ask what are you talking about.

Do you pay taxes on your Baccarat and BJ wins? Do you even have BJ and Baccarat wins? If you do why do you believe the IRS expects everyone is a loser and claiming winnings will trigger an audit

Exactly!

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

D.Oz when was your table game experience?
link to original post

Much more rarely as of late.
link to original post

Exactly. Plus, just like AxelWolf, you have never in your life gotten a check for a table game win. Or had a casino credit line.


link to original post

Exactly what?

I never claimed any knowledge of table game checks. I only discussed here checks issued for slot wins.

This conversation just got very weird. You won't answer if you pay taxes and instead ask about an ambiguous unidentified incident about table games, Then claim victory when I ask what are you talking about.

Do you pay taxes on your Baccarat and BJ wins? Do you even have BJ and Baccarat wins? If you do why do you believe the IRS expects everyone is a loser and claiming winnings will trigger an audit

Exactly!
link to original post

Hey DO, Several months ago I brought up the issue of taxes and his "winnngs". I asked point blank about it since no W2G's are issued for the baccarat play. I have stated several times that without W2G's there is no taxable incident. MDawg posted that he pays his taxes or some such post. I find that hard to believe on many levels. While legally obligated to declare such winnings, without any W2G's, as you have stated, there is no documentation to prove such. In his, MDawg's, investment thread he boasts about all of the "profitable trades" he has made. All which are short term gains subject to short term tax rates. I personally can't imagine enduring such taxable incidents that virtually negate those "gains."

Do you recall when I ask MDawg if he ever was injured or perhaps dislocated his shoulders at the table? That question went right over his head as I was referring to him continuously patting himself on the back for his "achievements."

tuttigym

Quote: MDawg

6-month gambling spree at Wynn Las Vegas funded by $10M fraud scheme, lawsuit alleges


This is the lady I was running into every now and then at Wynn in 2022 that I thought was Robbi Jade Lew.

I spent time talking to Robbi at Wynn, not to Sara.


Both were memorable though, seeing them walking down the halls.

You may see how it might be possible to confuse the two.
link to original post

While her doppelganger is in fact in trouble, if Robbi is guilty of anything, it would be of having too big boobs, and that's no crime!

Quote: MDawg

link to original post

I read somewhere that Robbi has a twin sister. I do not know if the twin is identical.

That said, here is a math puzzle for you.

It is given that 1/3 of twins are identical and 1/2 of fraternal twins are the same gender. You know a woman has a female twin. What is the probability the twin is identical?

Quote: unJon

Then the casino shouldn’t issue a check per AML, right?

If a check is issued in lieu of cash AML is not relevant and no CTR would be issued

Obviously. CTRs are issued only for input/output of cash. But if cash over 10K is input somewhere along the line, then a CTR would be issued for that.

The point is that the casino wouldn't issue the check in the first place if it consisted of a straight cash for check transaction.

Don't know why it's tough for anyone to get his arms around that a credit only player like me, who gets issued a cage check would receive one only pursuant to a win. Other what other possible scenario would the cage issue me a check? Lack of understanding this stems from lack of knowledge about both table games and casino credit lines.

Quote: MDawg

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

Quote: AxelWolf

I spent a significant amount of time playing table games in the 90s.

That's what I figured.
link to original post

Stop quoting out of context. That's a chicken S#LT move. What does that have to do with our latest conversation regarding structuring /Money laundering?

As far as checks, credit markers etc, etc. When it comes to casino standards, protocols, rules, laws, and regulations they are rarely followed to the letter, they are half-assed at best. There are always loopholes and various ways to get around them.

I know for a fact casino managers and hosts do all kinds of things they know are against the LAW, standards, protocols, rules, and regulations.
link to original post

Even your table game experience from thirty years ago has nothing to do with getting casino cage checks. I don't believe that you know anything "for a fact" with regards to this topic.

By your own admission, you have never in your life gotten a casino cage check for a table game win, and you have never in your life had a credit line.

However, it is all YOU all the way, to keep going on and on on a subject with which you have no personal experience.


link to original post

My table games play isn't just limited to 30 years ago, I just don't play them very often nowadays.
I don't know that you play all that often. We have real evidence of ONE time when you played a short session with a huge freeroll advantage, it wasn't high roller status material.

Pictures are meaningless to me, I haven't any clue under what circumstances you get checks and chips or what you are doing with them. Is it more likely than not that you are playing some baccarat ? Yes, I believe you do. However, I'm convinced something hokey is going on and things are not how or what you are trying to convince us of.

I have observed your tendency to go on and on about things with which you have no personal experience, so if you and D.Oz get a room, you may continue back and forth ad nauseam.

The Gossage—Vardebedian Papers

Quote: DRich

Quote: unJon

Then the casino shouldn’t issue a check per AML, right?

If a check is issued in lieu of cash AML is not relevant and no CTR would be issued
link to original post

Let me try to tease out the inconsistency I see by paraphrasing what I understand MD and DO to be saying.

MD:

If you bring cash to a casino and play table games, then end up with chips, the only way to turn the chips into a check is to have “verified winnings”. That means showing a net win at the tables. So if you buy in for $9k then lose $8k and then win $7k (getting lucky with your last thousand) you have no “verified winnings” but rather a verified loss of $2k. When you go to the cage you cannot get a $7k check.

The reason is AML.

DO:

If you bring cash to the casino and play slots, you can get a check for any hand pay. So if you put $9k into a machine and lose $8k and then with your last thousand play a spin and hit for a $7k win, you can get a check for $7k on that hand pay.


So either:

1) MD is wrong;
2) DO is wrong; or
3) The casino has different policies about issuing a check for slot wins vs table game wins.

3) is interesting because I do not immediately see why AML would apply to table games but not slots in a very similar seeming example.

I hate this thread when MDawg isn’t posting daily +/- reports

Quote: MDawg

Obviously. CTRs are issued only for input/output of cash. But if cash over 10K is input somewhere along the line, then a CTR would be issued for that.

The point is that the casino wouldn't issue the check in the first place if it consisted of a straight cash for check transaction.

Don't know why it's tough for anyone to get his arms around that a credit only player like me, who gets issued a cage check would receive one only pursuant to a win. Other what other possible scenario would the cage issue me a check? Lack of understanding this stems from lack of knowledge about both table games and casino credit lines.

link to original post

As far as checks, credit markers etc, etc. When it comes to casino standards, protocols, rules, laws, and regulations they are rarely followed to the letter, they are half-assed at best. There are always loopholes and various ways to get around them.

I know for a fact casino managers and hosts do all kinds of things they know are against the LAW, standards, protocols, rules, and regulations.

Quote: unJon

Quote: DRich

Quote: unJon

Then the casino shouldn’t issue a check per AML, right?

If a check is issued in lieu of cash AML is not relevant and no CTR would be issued
link to original post

Let me try to tease out the inconsistency I see by paraphrasing what I understand MD and DO to be saying.

MD:

If you bring cash to a casino and play table games, then end up with chips, the only way to turn the chips into a check is to have “verified winnings”. That means showing a net win at the tables. So if you buy in for $9k then lose $8k and then win $7k (getting lucky with your last thousand) you have no “verified winnings” but rather a verified loss of $2k. When you go to the cage you cannot get a $7k check.

The reason is AML.

DO:

If you bring cash to the casino and play slots, you can get a check for any hand pay. So if you put $9k into a machine and lose $8k and then with your last thousand play a spin and hit for a $7k win, you can get a check for $7k on that hand pay.


So either:

1) MD is wrong;
2) DO is wrong; or
3) The casino has different policies about issuing a check for slot wins vs table game wins.

3) is interesting because I do not immediately see why AML would apply to table games but not slots in a very similar seeming example.
link to original post

As far as AxelWolf, he has zero experience with any of this. Never got any checks for table game wins (or any checks at all with anything to do with table games), never had a casino credit line. He has no idea what DOES happen on this topic because nothing related to this sort of thing ever happens to him. Just spouting off hypotheses as usual, and adding a bit of "casinos will do whatever they want" nonsense. The guy probably has never even had the occasion to have to deal with casino compliance - I have had to deal with them more than a few times. Note that I used the word hypothesis not theory when it comes to his notions.

As far as D.Oz, between the two summaries you wrote there is no conflict. In both cases a check is issued only pursuant to a win. It's just that at the tables, the end result is all that matters while with slots once a W-2G is issued, I assume (do not know personally, but D.Oz claims he knows) that a check will be issued.
Now, if D.Oz is simply saying that he THINKS a check will be issued in such circumstances, then, he needs to go back to try it before writing endlessly on this subject. I am disappointed if he is writing endlessly on a subject where he has not actually tried what he proposes, and knows that a check will be issued.

Me, I already know what cannot happen because I have tried to get a check for more than a verified win at the tables, and within reason (a slight discrepancy in what I say I won versus what they say), it is a no go.

And therein lies the difference beween MDawg and some of these others, especially AxelWolf. AWolf just goes on and on on what he THINKS should be, whereas I, The Pope of Las Vegas, speak only on that which I have personal knowledge from actual experience.

On a subject different from what you mentioned (1 and 2) above:
D.Oz is arguing ad nauseam about whether his hypothetical money laundering scheme is feasible. The sliding $50K into a slot machine and playing until it is all gone, and then filing a tax return showing no income other than the W-2Gs. I say no, because it will at a minimum result in CTRs, he says yes, it will work.
I define "work" as convert cash to check under the radar.
Interestingly the reason he thinks it will work (due to the issuance of W-2Gs) is the very reason I think it won't - he thinks the W-2Gs will support the money laundering, I say that their very presence with or without the CTRs will bolster records of unexplained cash input. And again, it's just hypothesis - he has never tried it. He'd have to have one of his hacks and cronies who has not filed a tax return in years try it, and then let us know what happens after a few years.

I don't have to wait a few years to tell you the way things work - I speak of personal experience on a sometimes daily basis, recent experience at top Vegas casinos. I win at the tables and get winning cage checks all the time, and I can tell you exactly what they will and will not do based on personal experience, not hypothesis.

What it comes down to is that AxelWolf just likes to talk, even if he has no personal experience on the matter at hand. And whatever he has to say on this subject boils down to opinion, nothing substantiated.

Quote: unJon

[

3) is interesting because I do not immediately see why AML would apply to table games but not slots in a very similar seeming example.

AML and BSA is involved anytime cash is involved. Not just at casinos, anywhere cash is involved BSA and AML apply even to 7-11.

Quote: DRich

Quote: unJon

[

3) is interesting because I do not immediately see why AML would apply to table games but not slots in a very similar seeming example.

AML and BSA is involved anytime cash is involved.
link to original post

Cash is involved in both scenarios. Same amounts of cash. In one the casino refuses to issue a check because of AML. In another the casino issues a check. Absolutely no functional distinction except slots vs table games.

Quote: tuttigym

Hey DO, Several months ago I brought up the issue of taxes and his "winnngs". I asked point blank about it since no W2G's are issued for the baccarat play. I have stated several times that without W2G's there is no taxable incident. MDawg posted that he pays his taxes or some such post. I find that hard to believe on many levels. While legally obligated to declare such winnings, without any W2G's, as you have stated, there is no documentation to prove such. In his, MDawg's, investment thread he boasts about all of the "profitable trades" he has made. All which are short term gains subject to short term tax rates. I personally can't imagine enduring such taxable incidents that virtually negate those "gains."

Do you recall when I ask MDawg if he ever was injured or perhaps dislocated his shoulders at the table? That question went right over his head as I was referring to him continuously patting himself on the back for his "achievements."

tuttigym
link to original post

**bolding in above post added by moderator**

tuttigym, in the above bolded phrase you are getting very close to accusing Mdawg of tax evasion or tax fraud. I am not issuing a formal warning but I want to give you my perspective on this behavior:

1. Interrogating other forum members about their taxes and tax filings is, at a minimum, impolite. This kind of personal information is none of your business. Its true that such questions are not explicitly forbidden in the rules. However, if you continue to badger an individual about this subject, the moderators are free to interpret your behavior as harassment or trolling.

2. Speculating that a forum member is not properly paying their taxes is an even more serious issue. Tax fraud is a crime. In the past, when a member has accused another member of committing a crime we have asked the accuser to submit their basis for the accusation (evidence, eye witness accounts, public reports, whatever). If the accuser has no basis, then (as I remember it) the moderators have suspended the accuser.

I would suggest that you stay far way from speculating that any member is committing a crime without a credible basis for such a speculation.

Again, I am not issuing you a formal warning. I am just educating you about forum policy and precedent as it applies to this area, as a public service.

Quote: MDawg

There are others who have accused you of exaggerating income or evading taxes or structuring or whatever but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. No need to defend to me anyway, whatever it is you are actually doing as far as tax consequences.

You proposed a hypothetical scheme to launder money successfully, with someone who reports no income otherwise (no income reported other than the W-2Gs), and sticks $50K cash into a slot machine and then hopes that the W-2Gs he gets will carry the day. DRich and I pointed out, and so did someone else over there in the other thread, that such a scheme would result in CTRs being filed against the input of currency. The combination of CTRs, maybe even SARs, and no reportable income other than the W-2Gs, would not be an effective money laundering scheme.

I can see how you'd think that a bunch of W-2Gs would be better than no record at all, but in this instance with no reportable income and CTRs and SARs on the input, it would not. If you think so, that's your opinion, and we know that you are not one to back down once you've decided what's what.

Ideally, money launderers want no record of what happens, leaving them a free hand to arrange their own version of events.
link to original post

US TREASURY. vulnerabilities and emerging issues. Casino-based tourism or “junkets” are identified as a
vulnerability as they involve the cross border movement of people and funds and often target high
net-worth / VIP clients. Transparency of the movement of funds is an issue with junkets, due to gaps
in controls, and weak implementation and supervision.
The emerging issue of high-seas cruise ship casinos and associated junkets is a challenge for
regulators and law enforcement. The question of who has jurisdiction is prominent, including where
the vessel is registered, where it operates from and where it visits. The paper notes that few
jurisdictions regulate this sector.
With respect to VIP rooms and „high roller‟ customers, vulnerabilities are noted with identifying
source of funds and movement of funds. In many casino markets high-roller clients make up a large
majority of casino turnover, yet only a very small percentage of casino patrons.
Other vulnerabilities discussed include corrupt or inadequately trained staff, new markets opening

Casino.org

In live casinos, dirty money is converted into chips, played with for a short while, then cashed out in the form of a check.

More and more casinos are being held responsible for their insufficient anti-money laundering (AML) controls. In 2022 alone, reports show casino regulators in the US, the UK, Austria, Sweden, and the Netherlands issued over $264 million in fines to casinos – representing a 444 percent increase over 2021.

NOVEMBER 5, 2021LOS ANGELES, CAFINANCIAL CRIMES
Los Angeles casino agrees to pay $500,000 settlement and submit to increased review of anti-money laundering compliance program

When conducting cash transactions, the high roller relied on an assistant to conduct over $100 million in cash-in or cash-out transactions on his behalf.

Quote: MDawg

Now, if D.Oz is simply saying that he THINKS a check will be issued in such circumstances, then, he needs to go back to try it before writing endlessly on this subject. I am disappointed if he is writing endlessly on a subject where he has not actually tried what he proposes, and knows that a check will be issued.

link to original post

Stop trying to insinuate I am making the check thing up. I have already stated I have been issued checks when winning jackpots. Usually I am given a choice of check or cash.

In racinos i have gambled you can't even get cash over $10,000 jackpot. You literally are FORCED to accept a check. So please stop with the idea you can't get checks when issued W2-G wins. You just are making yourself look unreasonable.

And yes I have won over $10,000 in single spins in racinos in multiple occasions

Quote: darkoz

In racinos you can't even get cash over $10,000 jackpot. You literally are FORCED to accept a check. So please stop with the idea you can't get checks when issued W2-G wins. You just are making yourself look unreasonable.

That is not true. There are Racinos where you can get cash in excess of $10k. Maybe not the ones you go to but many will give cash if requested. I have received cash at Prairie meadows in Iowa.

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

In racinos you can't even get cash over $10,000 jackpot. You literally are FORCED to accept a check. So please stop with the idea you can't get checks when issued W2-G wins. You just are making yourself look unreasonable.

That is not true. There are Racinos where you can get cash in excess of $10k. Maybe not the ones you go to but many will give cash if requested. I have received cash at Prairie meadows in Iowa.
link to original post

Well I will specify the ones I go to. It's most certainly state laws and I definitely never gambled in Iowa. I updated the original post

Quote: darkoz

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

In racinos you can't even get cash over $10,000 jackpot. You literally are FORCED to accept a check. So please stop with the idea you can't get checks when issued W2-G wins. You just are making yourself look unreasonable.

That is not true. There are Racinos where you can get cash in excess of $10k. Maybe not the ones you go to but many will give cash if requested. I have received cash at Prairie meadows in Iowa.
link to original post

Well I will specify the ones I go to. It's most certainly state laws and I definitely never gambled in Iowa. I updated the original post
link to original post

I don't know that I have gambled in every state that has legal gambling, but I would guess I have in most of them.

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

Quote: DRich

Quote: darkoz

In racinos you can't even get cash over $10,000 jackpot. You literally are FORCED to accept a check. So please stop with the idea you can't get checks when issued W2-G wins. You just are making yourself look unreasonable.

That is not true. There are Racinos where you can get cash in excess of $10k. Maybe not the ones you go to but many will give cash if requested. I have received cash at Prairie meadows in Iowa.
link to original post

Well I will specify the ones I go to. It's most certainly state laws and I definitely never gambled in Iowa. I updated the original post
link to original post

I don't know that I have gambled in every state that has legal gambling, but I would guess I have in most of them.
link to original post

That's so cool.

I have gambled in just a few here in the North East. A few down south. I gambled in Vegas but nothing serious.

Oh and California

On slots, Egames, etc You can put in X amount of money and play 1 hand/spin/turn that pays less than you bet/put in get a Jackpot for LESS than you bet/put in(you lost money on ONE hand/spin/turn) Get a W2G and request a check.
You can also do this while breaking even or winning that ONE hand/spin/turn

Quote: AxelWolf

On slots, Egames, etc You can put in X amount of money and play 1 hand/spin/turn that pays less than you bet/put in get a Jackpot for LESS than you bet/put in(you lost money on ONE hand/spin/turn) Get a W2G and request a check.
You can also do this while breaking even or winning that ONE hand/spin/turn
link to original post

If I’m an AML lawyer (and I know a thing or two about that) I’d say that’s no different than buying chips and then cashing the chips for a check. If one is against AML then the other must be as well.

You could waste days arguing with these two AxelWolf and D.Oz over what they THINK should be.

Or just tell them once and for all that they're just talking endlessly based on hypotheses.

And they get verry flustered over trying to prove what they don't know, too.


Meantime, I can tell how it is. Not how I think it is. Now, my experience is limited to the Nevada casinos only, but at the casinos I play at, no one is allowing straight conversion of cash to check, that's just money laundering. And if anyone is getting away with doing it somehow, it is against the rules and the law.

When I go to the cage with a pile of chips, they will convert only the verified win portion of it to a check, which for me, isn't a problem because as a credit line player as long as the pit boss kept accurate count of my play, whatever chips I have after paying my markers will represent a win. It's only in unusual situations such as I have described, such as where I might deposit one casino's chips at another casino, and then get them back, or too much time has passed and the casino considers me on a new trip, that I have to get Compliance involved as they review circumstances and sessions to make sure that the chips I have left after paying the markers all represent a verified win. I doubt AxelWolf even has any idea what I'm talking about now, you'd have to be really IN the casino playing regularly as a credit line player to understand the nuances. Or at least, someone who is willing to listen and learn versus just keep talking endlessly about something other than actual experience.

Quote: MDawg

You could waste days arguing with these two AxelWolf and D.Oz over what they THINK should be.

Or just tell them once and for all that they're just talking endlessly based on hypotheses.

And they get verry flustered over trying to prove what they don't know, too.


Meantime, I can tell how it is. Not how I think it is. Now, my experience is limited to the Nevada casinos only, but at the casinos I play at, no one is allowing straight conversion of cash to check, that's just money laundering. And if anyone is getting away with doing it somehow, it is against the rules and the law.

When I go to the cage with a pile of chips, they will convert only the verified win portion of it to a check, which for me, isn't a problem because as a credit line player as long as the pit boss kept accurate count of my play, whatever chips I have after paying my markers will represent a win. It's only in unusual situations such as I have described, such as where I might deposit one casino's chips at another casino, or too much time has passed and the casino considers me on a new trip, that I have to get compliance involved as they review circumstances and sessions to make sure that the chips I have left after paying the markers all represent a verified win. I doubt AxelWolf even has any idea what I'm talking about now, you'd have to be really IN the casino playing regularly as a credit line player to understand the nuances.
link to original post

If you just admitted you were wrong we wouldn't have to go back and forth.

You seem to think casinos have a limit to how much CASH they will hand over to a winning player. Once I read that, I stopped taking anything you have to say seriously.

Again: you don't play tables games, you don't get checks for table game wins, and you have never had a credit line in your life. What does that equal? Someone who is spouting off with no relevant personal experience.

Actually we're talking about a guy who so far from not having a casino credit line, doesn't even have a credit card to his name. How could you know anything about how this sort of thing works, or what it means for a casino credit player to have been issued a cage check. The mere concept of "credit" is something that is just that...a concept...to you. No actual experience.

Actually, in that both you and AWolf are cash and carry types (you completely, he to a great extent), it makes perfect sense that you'd not know much about any of this.

Quote: MDawg

You seem to think casinos have a limit to how much CASH they will hand over to a winning player. Once I read that, I stopped taking anything you have to say seriously.

Again: you don't play tables games, you don't get checks for table game wins, and you have never had a credit line in your life. What does that equal? Someone who is spouting off with no relevant personal experience.
link to original post

I don't seem to think casinos have limits on how much cash they will hand over. I never mentioned that. I said certain racinos have that restriction. I am quite certain I can find that info online if I looked.

You keep saying I have no experience with table games checks and I keep telling you I don't so why do you keep agreeing with me.

I said you can get checks when winning W2-G slot wins.

You know nothing about that. But you already said you know nothing about that. See how we agree?

What I don't understand is why you don't just admit you know nothing about W2G's from slots and concede the point. There's nothing wrong with admitting you are wrong especially when you have no experience with the subject

Quote: MDawg

Actually we're talking about a guy who so far from not having a casino credit line, doesn't even have a credit card to his name. How could you know anything about how this sort of thing works, or what it means for a casino credit player to have been issued a cage check. The mere concept of "credit" is something that is just that...a concept...to you. No actual experience.

Actually, in that both you and AWolf are cash and carry types (you completely, he to a great extent), it makes perfect sense that you'd not know much about any of this.
link to original post

OK now you are just talking nonsense.

At 54 years old I have had credit cards (well over 15) in my lifetime.

I choose not to use them. Credit cards are leeches. I make enough to pay cash. I had horrible credit for years but now I get offers all the time. (So obviously the IRS sold my info because the offers coincided with my rise in reported income).

You really think highly of yourself that based on my current situation (which I choose wilfully not to get credit cards) that I must be deficient of all such knowledge or personal experience.

Sounds like you know very little about people or the world.

Quote: MDawg

Meantime, I can tell how it is. Not how I think it is. Now, my experience is limited to the Nevada casinos only, but at the casinos I play at, no one is allowing straight conversion of cash to check, that's just money laundering. And if anyone is getting away with doing it somehow, it is against the rules and the law.

link to original post

Quote clipped and bold added.

Unless you run that cash through a laundry slot machine first, then it’s clean as a whistle and you can get a check.

I don't play slots, and would not start playing them when I'm doing fine at the tables, so, I can't comment on whether whatever it is they are going on about is correct.

But I do know how it works at the tables.

Where they lose credibility is where they go on endlessly about even the tables, and let's face it, they don't know much of anything about how it works there. They have no personal experience with getting checks from table games, let alone with what it means to get a cage check when you have a casino credit line.

Quote: MDawg

I don't play slots, and would not start playing them when I'm doing fine at the tables, so, I can't comment on whether whatever it is they are going on about is correct.

But I do know how it works at the tables.

Where they lose credibility is where they go on endlessly about even the tables, and let's face it, they don't know much of anything about how it works there. They have no personal experience with getting checks from table games, let alone with what it means to get a cage check when you have a casino credit line.
link to original post

Cool. Well leave me out when discussing table games checks and credit lines. I already concede that's not my bag.

I apologize as to assuming that you have never had a credit card in your life. You were so anti even the idea of using a credit card with a 2% cash rebate, that I assumed the whole concept was alien to you.

So, lemme ask you, do you carry a wallet or just a roll of cash, guinea style?

Quote: MDawg

I don't play slots, and would not start playing them when I'm doing fine at the tables, so, I can't comment on whether whatever it is they are going on about is correct.

But I do know how it works at the tables.

Where they lose credibility is where they go on endlessly about even the tables, and let's face it, they don't know much of anything about how it works there. They have no personal experience with getting checks from table games, let alone with what it means to get a cage check when you have a casino credit line.
link to original post

It bothers me that the table game rule is supposedly based on AML but it isn’t applied to slots in the same way when the behavior is as risky from an AML perspective. Something doesn’t add up for me from first principles.

Quote: unJon

Quote: MDawg

Meantime, I can tell how it is. Not how I think it is. Now, my experience is limited to the Nevada casinos only, but at the casinos I play at, no one is allowing straight conversion of cash to check, that's just money laundering. And if anyone is getting away with doing it somehow, it is against the rules and the law.

link to original post

Quote clipped and bold added.

Unless you run that cash through a laundry slot machine first, then it’s clean as a whistle and you can get a check.
link to original post

Guessing - if this is allowed at the slots, it may have to do with that the system hasn't kept track of the player's over all net in / net out.

The reason they are not allowing the table game players to get a check for other than a verified win, is because they are keeping good track of the net in / net out, and also know exactly what was used to get the chips (cash, non-cash like check or bank wire, or casino credit). It is because they feel that they know exactly what is going on that they are comfortable with turning down requests for checks absent pit verified winnings.

Nowadays if a guy shows up with enough chips that they have no record of his obtaining legitimately, and he can't account for where he got them, they won't even cash them at all, not even for cash. They ask for that player card for a reason.