The Adventures of MDawg II

Sometimes though, he gets it right.

Even AxelWolf gets it right sometimes, too.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

I would just like to announce that I win $100,000 a week but not every week.
link to original post

I won $100,000 in half an hour when I max bet 18 yo's in a row.
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This is the comment of a troll.

My comment about winning $100,000 is to make a point. Yes, I've hit three $100k royals in my life and I have the photos and W2Gs to prove them.

But I would never refer to myself as someone who wins $100k per week but not every week.

Comments like I win $20k a week but not every week are offensive unless "but not every week" means the four weeks a year you have vacation.

I think the forum would agree with me.

You should use a different phrase. Maybe you should use a more accurate phrase to discuss your success.

Perhaps you could say "I had 22 weeks last year when I won $20k or more" or "on my best weeks I've won $20k or more."

It would be disingenuous for me to say I've won $100k per week but not every week.
link to original post

I had 22 weeks last year where I won $20,000 or more so last year I made $20,000 a week but not every week of the year.

My friend last year made $18 an hour. But not every hour!

I heard at one time Brad Pitt made $20 million dollars a picture but not every picture.

The fact that people can't get around my statement shows how sad the state of the world is today.
link to original post

But Brad Pitt doesnt tout himself as being a $20-million per picture actor.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

I would just like to announce that I win $100,000 a week but not every week.
link to original post

I won $100,000 in half an hour when I max bet 18 yo's in a row.
link to original post

This is the comment of a troll.

My comment about winning $100,000 is to make a point. Yes, I've hit three $100k royals in my life and I have the photos and W2Gs to prove them.

But I would never refer to myself as someone who wins $100k per week but not every week.

Comments like I win $20k a week but not every week are offensive unless "but not every week" means the four weeks a year you have vacation.

I think the forum would agree with me.

You should use a different phrase. Maybe you should use a more accurate phrase to discuss your success.

Perhaps you could say "I had 22 weeks last year when I won $20k or more" or "on my best weeks I've won $20k or more."

It would be disingenuous for me to say I've won $100k per week but not every week.
link to original post

I had 22 weeks last year where I won $20,000 or more so last year I made $20,000 a week but not every week of the year.

My friend last year made $18 an hour. But not every hour!

I heard at one time Brad Pitt made $20 million dollars a picture but not every picture.

The fact that people can't get around my statement shows how sad the state of the world is today.
link to original post

But Brad Pitt doesnt tout himself as being a $20-million per picture actor.
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Yeah, right!

Quote: MDawg

D.Oz isn't going to back down from that statement, no matter how meaningless it might be.

That statement simply goes hand in hand with hyperbole.
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Why back down from one of the most truthful statements made on WOV ever.

Quote: darkoz

I had 22 weeks last year where I won $20,000 or more so last year I made $20,000 a week but not every week of the year.

Mr.DO: Suppose you tell us, in a given session of play with multiple cards, (1) how many cards do you use, and (2) what is the average value or amount of free play on each card? I personally believe that your assertion above is accurate, and using 4th grade arithmetic with the above answers, most anyone could figure it out. For example: if one were to use 50 cards with $100 of free play per card, that would equal $5,000 of free play per session and 5 sessions would equal $25,000 of free play which could easily equate to a $20,000 real money profit for the week. Is that anywhere in your ballpark?

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: darkoz

I had 22 weeks last year where I won $20,000 or more so last year I made $20,000 a week but not every week of the year.

Mr.DO: Suppose you tell us, in a given session of play with multiple cards, (1) how many cards do you use, and (2) what is the average value or amount of free play on each card? I personally believe that your assertion above is accurate, and using 4th grade arithmetic with the above answers, most anyone could figure it out. For example: if one were to use 50 cards with $100 of free play per card, that would equal $5,000 of free play per session and 5 sessions would equal $25,000 of free play which could easily equate to a $20,000 real money profit for the week. Is that anywhere in your ballpark?

tuttigym
link to original post

You're missing the key question: HOW MANY WEEKS is he playing with X number of cards with X value of free play?

Without knowing how many weeks the phrase "but not every week" is meaningless.

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: darkoz

I had 22 weeks last year where I won $20,000 or more so last year I made $20,000 a week but not every week of the year.

Mr.DO: Suppose you tell us, in a given session of play with multiple cards, (1) how many cards do you use, and (2) what is the average value or amount of free play on each card? I personally believe that your assertion above is accurate, and using 4th grade arithmetic with the above answers, most anyone could figure it out. For example: if one were to use 50 cards with $100 of free play per card, that would equal $5,000 of free play per session and 5 sessions would equal $25,000 of free play which could easily equate to a $20,000 real money profit for the week. Is that anywhere in your ballpark?

tuttigym
link to original post

Yes that pretty much sums it up.

Different Casinos have different schedules. One gives out freeplay twice a month while another gives out freeplay seven days a week.

Based on number of cards (which again varies drastically. One Casino I hit I do maybe six - ten a month while another I hit I do 180 cards per month.) I already can predict with reasonable accuracy my return.

That's because I am going to get consistently the same offers on all my cards. And from experience I have a good idea of what actual cash will return to me after freeplay is finished, after my expenses etc.

AP is a volatile fluid morphing work space. One minute I am making $20,000 a week, every week for maybe four months at XYZ Casino, then all of a sudden all the cards at XYZ Casino are pin locked and I am making zero.

Or if it's an ongoing operation and my cards are turned off, I may have a new set of cards about to kick in. Then perhaps for two weeks I might make $20,000 but the Casino, now aware of the situation, moved quickly to shut me down.

During this "off" period I am both looking for new location to set up shop and experimenting with restarting at XYZ Casino if I can circumvent their new safeguards. And something like that might take a few months. This year in fact has taken longer than any other. I stopped making$20,000 a week in January when a number of locations shut me down (there is a war going on in AC at this very moment that Seedvalue has hinted at.)

I expect to be back on track by October. So this year maybe only four months of the year while I haven't turned s profit at all in the other months

Next year it might be six months. Maybe 8! I like to say maybe all year long but in a decade that has never happened. There is just so long before Casinos become aware and you wind up moving on.

When my operation is running smoothly I am pretty consistent in making $20,000 a week.

When I first made that statement posters on WOV multiplied that by 52 weeks and said I was claiming to make a million bucks a year.

So I clarified that I don't make that amount every week of the year for various reasons.

And for some reason people are indignant about that. Even though it's literally one of the more truthful statements made on WOV.

I think WOV members can't understand that multicarding AP isn't really gambling. What I do is actually an AP that has a pretty consistent return. It's only not guaranteed 100% due to a war of attrition with the Casinos. If Casinos didn't fight me I would probably make $20,000 every week of the year.

Quote: AlanMendelson

You're missing the key question: HOW MANY WEEKS is he playing with X number of cards with X value of free play?

Without knowing how many weeks the phrase "but not every week" is meaningless.

No, Mr. Mendelson you are missing the total concept. A commissioned salesperson can make any amount of $$ per week based on his sales from $0 to say $20,000/week. Basically, that is what Mr.DO is. If one has been a salaried individual all their working years picking up a guaranteed check at the end of every pay period, that individual might not comprehend how some individuals can exist as commissioned only employees or business owners. Basically, Mr. DO is a commissioned business owner relying on free play and multi-carding and fruits of such. It is nothing more than that. Stop the badgering.

tuttigym

When it comes to MDawg there are really only two possibilities: he dumped somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000. last year in order to stay in Vegas at that level for 10 months, or he has some way of playing and staying afloat or winning such that theo loss carries him through an average of $50K in comps a month.

Given that MDawg went right back to Vegas for multiple trips again this year, again, either he's made of money able to dump $500,000. a month in Vegas just to stay there, or, again, he's got some winning action going on.

I saw the Wizard multiple times and regularly during these trips and he knows we were in Vegas continually almost all of last year. He came by and saw the suite we were in which was around 2000 square feet during the DarkOz challenge, and that suite is typical of the ones we stay in. To stay RFB in those types of suites nonstop with spa and other charges requires at least $50,000. a month in comps.

But when it comes to someone like DarkOz or AxelWolf there's no external regularly posted evidence that anything is going on at all. Let's say some blackjack player reads up on blackjack and then comes out saying that she wins say 80K a year "because that is what the math says I should win." And then that player offers no backup whatsoever to establish that she even plays blackjack at all. Hasn't ever even described a single hand of blackjack. So, what's to say that that person even plays and isn't just relating something out of a book?

So if anyone is asking DarkOz to pin down what he makes or doesn't make, I'd say, what does it matter, where is the evidence proffered to back it up. All we do have is this "$20K a week" statement that is meaningless and even the person saying it puts a series of asterisks *** after the claim. Still, just words, where is the back up?

Now, I'm not even sure what someone who multicards at that claimed level could even offer in the way of ongoing proof, but in my case, as stated, there is obviously a lot of very heavy duty play going on and either I'm winning or more than made of money to sustain that action.

Quote: MDawg

When

But when it comes to someone like DarkOz or AxelWolf there's no external regularly posted evidence that anything is going on at all. Let's say some blackjack player reads up on blackjack and then comes out saying that she wins say 80K a year "because that is what the math says I should win." And then that player offers no backup whatsoever to establish that she even plays blackjack at all. Hasn't ever even described a single hand of blackjack. So, what's to say that that person even plays and isn't just relating something out of a book?


link to original post

If you are asking what proof I have that I even operate a multicarding operation, the Wizard himself flew to NYC (at my cost of hotels, airfare and his fee which I won't divulge as he may consider that privileged information) in order to testify in a lawsuit I had against Resorts World for an unlawful eviction due to multicarding.

(The eviction of course was within their rights but it was how they handled it through strong arm tactics).

There was surveillance of me and testimony by the casino as to my multicarding at the trial all of which the Wizard himself viewed.

Technically if you wanted to, you could look it up, I know the case is listed on the web, (which is one reason I don't fear the casinos at all, they all know of me, my info is out there already. Doesn't hamper me).

I mean, come on, if you are trying to sew doubt whether I multicard, you can drop that line because you only look silly.

That would be the equiv of my establishing that I went to Vegas once years ago. And got busted.

Obviously whatever I am doing is onnngoing and sustainable.

Quote: MDawg

That would be the equiv of my establishing that I went to Vegas once years ago. And got busted.

Obviously whatever I am doing is onnngoing and sustainable.
link to original post

All you have proven to date is you are a high roller welcome by Casinos.

Which claims point to you being a habitual loser that the casinos welcome back.

EDIT: I refer to habitual loser in terms of gambling and not an aspersion to MDawg as a person

Quote: AlanMendelson

But Brad Pitt doesnt tout himself as being a $20-million per picture actor.
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Of course not.
I expect he has an agent for that.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

That would be the equiv of my establishing that I went to Vegas once years ago. And got busted.

Obviously whatever I am doing is onnngoing and sustainable.
link to original post

All you have proven to date is you are a high roller welcome by Casinos.

Which claims point to you being a habitual loser that the casinos welcome back.

EDIT: I refer to habitual loser in terms of gambling and not an aspersion to MDawg as a person
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Wrong, He has only proven he was willing to take your money on a good +EV situation while betting a moderately high amount(A few hands at 3k?).

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

That would be the equiv of my establishing that I went to Vegas once years ago. And got busted.

Obviously whatever I am doing is onnngoing and sustainable.
link to original post

All you have proven to date is you are a high roller welcome by Casinos.

Which claims point to you being a habitual loser that the casinos welcome back.

EDIT: I refer to habitual loser in terms of gambling and not an aspersion to MDawg as a person
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Wrong, He has only proven he was willing to take your money on a good +EV situation while betting a moderately high amount(A few hands at 3k?).
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That doesn't bother me although you make a point.

But I knew what I was doing so that's on me.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

That would be the equiv of my establishing that I went to Vegas once years ago. And got busted.

Obviously whatever I am doing is onnngoing and sustainable.
link to original post

All you have proven to date is you are a high roller welcome by Casinos.

Which claims point to you being a habitual loser that the casinos welcome back.

EDIT: I refer to habitual loser in terms of gambling and not an aspersion to MDawg as a person
link to original post

Wrong, He has only proven he was willing to take your money on a good +EV situation while betting a moderately high amount(A few hands at 3k?).
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That doesn't bother me although you make a point.

But I knew what I was doing so that's on me.
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I didn't mean to imply you were a sucker or anything like that. Sometimes you do s*iT because you can, or just want to.

I get free play offers of $2500 but not every day I go to a casino.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I get free play offers of $2500 but not every day I go to a casino.
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You are being repetitively sarcastic but there is some truth to that situation as it relates to what I do

I might get $7,000 Freeplay in a day. That schedule will be anywhere from once a week to seven days a week.

Let's say once a week. You think I would be trying to mislead if every week I have a day where I get $7,000 FP and made the statement I get $7,000 Freeplay a day but not every day?

How would that be a wrong way of stating it?

Am I supposed to divide all the days of the week into Freeplay I pick up in one day and say"I get $1000 Freeplay a day every day"?

How would a pro-rated amount be less misleading than simply stating it as is? $7000 FP in a day but not every day?

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

I get free play offers of $2500 but not every day I go to a casino.
link to original post

You are being repetitively sarcastic but there is some truth to that situation as it relates to what I do

I might get $7,000 Freeplay in a day. That schedule will be anywhere from once a week to seven days a week.

Let's say once a week. You think I would be trying to mislead if every week I have a day where I get $7,000 FP and made the statement I get $7,000 Freeplay a day but not every day?

How would that be a wrong way of stating it?

Am I supposed to divide all the days of the week into Freeplay I pick up in one day and say"I get $1000 Freeplay a day every day"?

How would a pro-rated amount be less misleading than simply stating it as is? $7000 FP in a day but not every day?
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If you simply said "I average $7000 of free play X times per month on my X number of cards" your comments would be better.

We all understand the concept of earning free play and multi carding and converting free play into cash, but it's the image of an open spigot with a never ending flow of $20,000 weeks which is questionable -- just as you question MDawg's reports.

You came a long way after admitting you invested $60k to earn your initial run of free play.

Continued success.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

I get free play offers of $2500 but not every day I go to a casino.
link to original post

You are being repetitively sarcastic but there is some truth to that situation as it relates to what I do

I might get $7,000 Freeplay in a day. That schedule will be anywhere from once a week to seven days a week.

Let's say once a week. You think I would be trying to mislead if every week I have a day where I get $7,000 FP and made the statement I get $7,000 Freeplay a day but not every day?

How would that be a wrong way of stating it?

Am I supposed to divide all the days of the week into Freeplay I pick up in one day and say"I get $1000 Freeplay a day every day"?

How would a pro-rated amount be less misleading than simply stating it as is? $7000 FP in a day but not every day?
link to original post

If you simply said "I average $7000 of free play X times per month on my X number of cards" your comments would be better.

We all understand the concept of earning free play and multi carding and converting free play into cash, but it's the image of an open spigot with a never ending flow of $20,000 weeks which is questionable -- just as you question MDawg's reports.

You came a long way after admitting you invested $60k to earn your initial run of free play.

Continued success.
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The image of an open spigot is totally on you.

I obtain offers in a systematic way.

The term Freeplay is the Casino term. Truthfully I pay for every penny of that. Technically so do you as all Freeplay (minus new members offers and a few coupons) are all earned based on prior history.

But then that's getting into another can of worms.

Basically if I understand your insistence on absolute proper exposition, I would be lying if I said I got a free whopper at Burger King because I had to pay for fries and coke as a condition of getting it.

I should have revealed that I actually had to buy a fries and coke and I should have divided the cost of all three ($10) by the cost of fries and soda ($6) and stated properly that I got a Whopper for $2 along with a soda and fries also at $2 apiece.

And when I insist I got a free whopper you then state I gave the impression of an open spigot of whopper's at no cost

I mean come on. I would be correct in saying I got a free whopper. Whatever your imagination comes up with.

Darkoz I should hire you to write advertising for me, but the FTC would shut me down.

LOL

Just play 10,000 hands of $125 VP and you too could get $1.25M of coin-in for 208K points, or $2K in comps.

About a year after I arrived, AxelWolf tried to claim that there was nothing to see here, no play at all, just fake posts. He had the temerity to use the word "fraud."

I did offer a $500,000. challenge in that respect, but he declined to accept it.

Now he pops up occasionally to try to seem relevant.

Same as DarkOz.

Both are visitors in my world. I welcome all visitors.
I'm the Pope of Las Vegas.

I think the reason MDawg wants to discredit me is because he truly realizes how undercomped he is.

Here he is bragging about fifty thousand a month in comps and meanwhile I get a lot more than that for a lot less money.

Unless he can believe what I do isn't real, that means he basically is getting ripped off for all his adventures.

He does these ten, twenty thousand a hand gambled and there I am playing penny slots and getting three times as much comps in the form of Freeplay.

I don't try to discredit you.

But if interaction with me drives you to try to prove yourself, that's your choice.

Quote: darkoz

Here he is bragging about fifty thousand a month in comps and meanwhile I get a lot more than that for a lot less money. link to original post

You get more than $50,000 a month in comps?

Quote: UP84

Quote: darkoz

Here he is bragging about fifty thousand a month in comps and meanwhile I get a lot more than that for a lot less money. link to original post

You get more than $50,000 a month in comps?
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Yes but not on a single persons card.

A major operation with maybe 20 cards each getting $500 freeplay a day a number of days a week and it's not too difficult to top $50,000 a month in Freeplay.

I probably have about $150,000 to 200K in Freeplay a month in order to profit $20,000 a week.

After turnover you maybe have an 80% return on the Freeplay value but you then have expenses, card building, paying new people, paying people who gamble for me, paying people who do the pickups, transportation, etc.

How much do I have play to get $500 a day in free play? Seems tier related and high at that.

Quote: ChumpChange

How much do I have play to get $500 a day in free play? Seems tier related and high at that.
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Those are trade secrets, sorry.

All I will say is that each and every Casino has its own proprietary calculation for ADT and I spend months figuring out what it is, how to use it to my advantage of possible etc.

And that's not even figuring in security aspects. Determining how to avoid Casinos shutting or pin locking, basically revoking offers is also part and parcel to what I do.

Quote: MDawg

When it comes to MDawg there are really only two possibilities: he dumped somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000. last year in order to stay in Vegas at that level for 10 months, or he has some way of playing and staying afloat or winning such that theo loss carries him through an average of $50K in comps a month.

Given that MDawg went right back to Vegas for multiple trips again this year, again, either he's made of money able to dump $500,000. a month in Vegas just to stay there, or, again, he's got some winning action going on.

I saw the Wizard multiple times and regularly during these trips and he knows we were in Vegas continually almost all of last year. He came by and saw the suite we were in which was around 2000 square feet during the DarkOz challenge, and that suite is typical of the ones we stay in. To stay RFB in those types of suites nonstop with spa and other charges requires at least $50,000. a month in comps.

But when it comes to someone like DarkOz or AxelWolf there's no external regularly posted evidence that anything is going on at all. Let's say some blackjack player reads up on blackjack and then comes out saying that she wins say 80K a year "because that is what the math says I should win." And then that player offers no backup whatsoever to establish that she even plays blackjack at all. Hasn't ever even described a single hand of blackjack. So, what's to say that that person even plays and isn't just relating something out of a book?

So if anyone is asking DarkOz to pin down what he makes or doesn't make, I'd say, what does it matter, where is the evidence proffered to back it up. All we do have is this "$20K a week" statement that is meaningless and even the person saying it puts a series of asterisks *** after the claim. Still, just words, where is the back up?

Now, I'm not even sure what someone who multicards at that claimed level could even offer in the way of ongoing proof, but in my case, as stated, there is obviously a lot of very heavy duty play going on and either I'm winning or more than made of money to sustain that action.
link to original post

I will say the reason why you can post trip reports and evidence is because you’re coming through the front door of the casino to win. Oz , Axel, myself, and others are often times utilizing the backdoor, or a window that is slightly open. Some of the things we are doing are utterly absurd, and shouldn’t be talked about. Even after a play is dead one should probably not say anything. There have been numerous times one casino fixes a vulnerability but the same vulnerability pops up years later at another casino.

Im pretty sure I have figured out what you are doing, and the casinos welcome you back. However Casinos don’t tolerate what we are doing at the level we do it so there’s a bigger risk. People can’t fathom your level of play just like the can’t fathom Oz having 200k of free play a month. I will admit up until about 5 months ago I thought you were the biggest fraud going. Maybe you still are but I actually think I have a good idea what you may be doing. I’m not interested in betting against you that’s for sure.

Regarding DOz claims I can confirm with 100 percent confidence that what he is doing is real. IMO he shares to much detailed information in public. I think that information has hurt this aspect of AP In ways he may not have understood until recently. It’s dam hard right now, and anyone telling you otherwise has little prior history In this game. One must cast a much wider net to identify, and capitalize on opportunities then years past. More capital invested, more time, more people to make the same amount that half the effort would yield just a few years ago. Sure there are one off plays that you can hit quickly but they seem to close much faster.

I don’t think we should be goading each other into reveling secrets or proof on a public message board. We all should be on the same team. Take it Private

As Seedvalue says it's definitely much harder these days.

However I feel that isn't due to internet sharing of information but too many hens in the henhouse if that's the proper term.

Enough people started to understand how to take advantage of XYZ and once a casino starts getting sliced by a thousand small cuts, that's it, game over.

I will give an example of why I doubt Casinos staff is really up to keeping up with advantage player's.

In 2015 thereabouts the Tropicana AC became super tight. You couldn't even get a cup of coffee with comps without showing extra play or they pin locked the card.

Then Tropicana took over Taj in it's dying days and several employees from Trop including the marketing people went over there.

I was slamming Taj!!! And I wondered if it was now game over once the Trop boys got involved.

But no, in fact they made the Taj offers even easier and more lucrative. For months I just shook my head. How was it the same guys so tight at Trop were lax at Taj.

Casino employees are just doing a job. They don't want anything but to collect their paycheck. The last thing the majority of them are doing is going on gambling forums.

It's like employees at Disney world probably don't get home from their 9-5 at magic kingdom and go into Walt Disney discussion forums. Last thing they want to see is more Disney images.

SeedValue you work back East correct?

I have never played any casinos back there.

Anyway, and I assume it is the same everywhere, as you know the casinos have a formula to issue comps, which is pretty standard at table games - 10% of actual loss, or 35-40% of theo loss. I assume the numbers are similar at machines, although machines have different house edges, but still the percentages come must be the same or similar.

In any case, at table games we get promo chips (sometimes called free play chips), and promo chips count like comps the same as any other comps. If a credit line player loses and has a loss rebate available, whatever discount is applied to pay off the line X 2 is deducted from his comps. Loss rebate is counted as twice the value of regular comps because it is like real cash in a way. Promo chips too, count for something more than regular comps. So if say someone plays and wins some money (or loses some money) but the theo loss is $20000., he will get about $7000. in comps.

In the end whatever comps the player gets cannot exceed his comps available. So if a given player is playing slots only and gets free play, but never stays in the casino or dines there, he might get a lot of free play. But if he stays in the casino, dines in the casino, goes to the spa in the casino, all of that will be deducted against his comps.

I am sure you know all of the above. But anyone who posts nonsense about being "undercomped" doesn't understand the above, because he probably isn't utilizing much if any RFB or spa comps, so figures that there are tons of promo chips available to a table game player above and beyond maxing out comps in the RFB + spa department. That is to misunderstand the way comps work.

There is no free ride. You can't get 35-40% of theo (or anywhere close) in RFB + spa and 35-40% of theo in promo chips. And besides, when it comes to table games, promo chips aren't a guaranteed thing at all the way slot free play might be. Some casinos hand out promo chips only during certain months or promotional periods. Others almost never hand them out unless the player meets certain criteria which might not be based on theo or theo alone. One casino I play at gives promo (play until you lose) chips only to those of us with very high credit lines, and for everyone else, only "free bet" (one bet only) chips. You won't see every table game player getting promo chips the way slots players expect free play.

Maybe slots players get free play at a seemingly fixed rate because they are expected to lose. At table games if you win, as I do, at some casinos they will hand out the promo chips very sparingly no matter how much you play.

Slots just isn't the same sort of animal as table games. There are probably slots players who are locals who show up to play and don't care about much other than free play. Free play on slots may build according to set formulas, but still, if a big slots player is staying in house and burning a lot of RFB + spa comps he's not going to get the same level of free play. Once a player shows as overcomped the reins will be pulled in.

Quote: MDawg

SeedValue you work back East correct?

I have never played any casinos back there.

Anyway, and I assume it is the same everywhere, as you know the casinos have a formula to issue comps, which is pretty standard at table games - 10% of actual loss, or 35-40% of theo loss. I assume the numbers are similar at machines, although machines have different house edges, but still the percentages come must be the same or similar.

In any case, at table games we get promo chips (sometimes called free play chips), and promo chips count like comps the same as any other comps. If a credit line player loses and has a loss rebate available, whatever discount is applied to pay off the line X 2 is deducted from his comps. Loss rebate is counted as twice the value of regular comps because it is like real cash in a way. Promo chips too, count for something more than regular comps. So if say someone plays and wins some money (or loses some money) but the theo loss is $20000., he will get about $7000. in comps.

In the end whatever comps the player gets cannot exceed his comps available. So if a given player is playing slots only and gets free play, but never stays in the casino or dines there, he might get a lot of free play. But if he stays in the casino, dines in the casino, goes to the spa in the casino, all of that will be deducted against his comps.

I am sure you know all of the above. But anyone who posts nonsense about being "undercomped" doesn't understand the above, because he probably isn't utilizing much if any RFB or spa comps, so figures that there are tons of promo chips available to a table game player above and beyond maxing out comps in the RFB + spa department. That is to misunderstand the way comps work.

There is no free ride. You can't get 35-40% of theo (or anywhere close) in RFB + spa and 35-40% of theo in promo chips. And besides, when it comes to table games, promo chips aren't a guaranteed thing at all the way slot free play might be. Some casinos hand out promo chips only during certain months or promotional periods. Others almost never hand them out unless the player meets certain criteria which might not be based on theo or theo alone. One casino I play at gives promo (play until you lose) chips only to those of us with very high credit lines, and for everyone else, only "free bet" (one bet only) chips. You won't see every table game player getting promo chips the way slots players expect free play.

Maybe slots players get free play at a seemingly fixed rate because they are expected to lose. At table games if you win, as I do, at some casinos they will hand out the promo chips very sparingly no matter how much you play.

Slots just isn't the same sort of animal as table games. There are probably slots players who are locals who show up to play and don't care about much other than free play. Free play on slots may build according to set formulas, but still, if a big slots player is staying in house and burning a lot of RFB + spa comps he's not going to get the same level of free play. Once a player shows as overcomped the reins will be pulled in.
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Card hustling isn't about getting RFB and spas.

It's about losing the least amount gambling to achieve the most in Freeplay.

The fact that you value what I term junk offers is telling.

You are treating what you do as a way to feel special as a player

The professional comp hustler is doing it to finance their livelihood.

I have had nice rooms and dinners and offers for flat screens etc. Some nice gravy occasionally but ultimately that isn't my goal.

My goal isn't to live like a rock star in Vegas but to live comfortably off a fun and well paying vocation.

Most of my new employees are excited about working in a casino playing games all day until a few weeks go by when suddenly they complain what I do is work. They don't get it until they experience it.

You still don't get it - clearly because you have nothing to do with table games.

In Vegas, at table games promo chips are not guaranteed. They max out at pretty minimal levels compared to play, if they are available at all. Winning players can get promo chips at some casinos, not at all at others. Until you understand all of this you will never understand how it works out here.

Quote: MDawg

You still don't get it - clearly because you have nothing to do with table games.

In Vegas, at table games promo chips are not guaranteed. They max out at pretty minimal levels compared to play. Until you understand that you will never understand how it works out here.
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Well if that is the gist of your argument we are talking apples and oranges.

I don't hustle table games but not for the above reasons. I stay away from table games because I am using other people cards and avoid any situation where a live person is being handed a card.

The other reason I don't attack table games is the rating is by pit bosses and I don't feel comfortable letting them judge the full value of my play based on fleeting observation. At a slot or E-table game that issue is non-existent.

I HAVE player at Live E-games (not sure what you call them officially) where a live dealers is in center operating the game while players sit at electronic terminals with their cards inserted. Those also don't adhere to what you are claiming.

Promo chips on the East Coast!!! You bring these up but honestly I don't recall ever seeing promo chips period on the East Coast. The closest I have seen are vouchers to print at a kiosk good only on table games. These usually have restrictions printed on them such as only being good at one specified side of even money wagers such as only good at red/Even/Low, the purpose being to keep two players from hedging against each other.

The state of gaming on the East Coast is so radically different from table games in Vegas (based on your description) that perhaps you just can't imagine what goes on here.

You're playing slots. I am playing tables. That's a big difference there.

The other difference though: I'm responding to your attempt to presume how it works in Vegas, at the tables, or how it should be played??

Quote: MDawg

You're playing slots. I am playing tables. That's a big difference there.

The other difference though: I'm responding to your attempt to presume how it works in Vegas, at the tables, or how it should be played??
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No you are responding to your belief that people like me can't be making large sums of money in a systematic method.

In this thread, you've come up with various "suggestions" as to how to play it "better" in Vegas at the tables, while admitting that you have no idea how it works out here.

I play tables to win. You play slots and apparently can't win, so you make it up with free play. The more I win at the tables, at least at many of the casinos, the less promo chips I am going to get anyway, so I might as well use the comps, especially if we are staying in house.

Whatever you are doing is apparently giving you no insight into table game play, especially not in Vegas.

Actually a conversation about comps is pointless. Comp policies will vary from casino to casino, from player to player, and from host to host.

Who is overcomped and who is undercomped is pointless.

Theres a guy who runs another forum who swears he's overcomped but the truth is no one at the casino wants anything to do with him because he's a pain in the butt and that really makes him undercomped.

If you're happy with your comps that's all that counts.

To compare your situation to someone else's situation just cant be done unless you have identical play, hosts, casinos, etc.

In general, and let me repeat that, in general the more you gamble the better your comps win or lose.

Why? Because casinos know they will always win and the value that you put on a comp is far more than the value a casino puts on a comp.

Example: a $5000 shopping spree doesn't cost a casino $5000. And $5000 of free play doesnt cost a casino $5000.

I haven't run into anyone who knows more about squeezing all available comps out of casinos than I, between RFB, spa, promo chips, gifts and gift cards, special events, tournaments, airfare reimbursement, cash rebates, and so on. Of course I am talking about real people I have met where I know what they are doing, versus just talk from someone online. Since I stay in house in casinos for months at a time, I have met a lot of actual players.

But at the end of the day you are right Alan, if you don't put in the play you won't get anything. And while burning comps in one area obviously reduces the level of over all comps available, at least at table games there are just limits to what they will hand out in terms of some categories of comps, so might as well use up the available comps in other areas where there might be no special limits.

Quote: MDawg

I play tables to win. You play slots and apparently can't win, so you make it up with free play.

This statement sums up your entire disconnect with what we are discussing.

When I publish my book probably the very first sentence will read "you can't beat the slots because they are negative expectation. But there are ways to still make a living by consistently winning at the casino."***

Your statement above seems to belittle the fact I am not trying to "beat slots" as much as "beat Casinos".

You sound like the guy who brags that he flies first class all the time while I go coach. Funny, we both disembark at the same location so what does it matter? My goal on a flight to Los Angeles isn't to be pampered, it's to arrive in Los Angeles.

EDIT: ***That's not the first sentence of my book, BTW!

There is no disconnect. You can't win, I can. So, you do what you can to make up for losing. I don't need to make up for anything, comps are just extra gravy on the top!

There are those who figure out how to survive "on down the feeding trough." Others are at the top of the food chain, and win outright.
Man, that's a great scene!


That you keep responding to me with "But...but...." means, what? Why do you care if you lose if you make up for it through comps?

Quote: MDawg

There is no disconnect. You can't win, I can. So, you do what you can to make up for losing. I don't need to make up for anything, it's just extra gravy on the top!

There are those who figure out how to survive "on down the feeding trough." Others are at the top of the food chain, and win outright.
Man, that's a great scene!

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You double down on the disconnect.

Who cares if you win or lose. It's about making a profit.

To be perfectly honest the guy who loses AND STILL BOOKS PROFIT has a better bragging rights than a guy who wins and is all tipsy at getting a spa treatment.

You care! which is why you keep responding to me with more and more, "But...but...." justifications. 😄

Quote: darkoz

When I publish my book
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Unless you're self publishing you'll have to reveal your trade secrets to get published.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

When I publish my book
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Unless you're self publishing you'll have to reveal your trade secrets to get published.
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Which is why the book, already written is languishing on my computer hard drive!

Quote: MDawg

You care! which is why you keep responding to me with more and more, "But...but...." justifications. 😄
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You my good friend are Apollo Creed at the end of Rocky one, jumping up and down because you"won" but everyone in the audience knows who the real winner was!

Hang on guys... Darkoz and Mdawg.

Are you now going to get into a silly argument over what is winning and what is losing?

It is silly.

Some players dont want to win because they'd have to pay taxes. But there are no taxes on rebates and cashback and comps and promos.

Some players may not care about the tax situation because they dont have ex wives checking returns or are going through divorces.

Attacking each other over personal goals is ridiculous.

Besides... who wants to show a profit gambling??

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

When I publish my book
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Unless you're self publishing you'll have to reveal your trade secrets to get published.
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Which is why the book, already written is languishing on my computer hard drive!
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Yep. I'm not surprised.