Addicted-are we and the casinos hiding the reality?

Not a very popular subject any time on a gambling forum, but this recently read article hit solidly to life.
One of my best friends wife was addicted and wiped his family out and we didn't know for years it was going on.
Fortunately, it didn't end in death, but a life changer all the same. I have no allegiance to the website or author, I just felt this was a topical subject, no matter how speculative or painful it may be. This mirrored my friends wife to a tee, who was also a dear friend to me as well. I don't believe the following excerpt is just hearsay or nonsense. I have been changed forever.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/12/losing-it-all/505814/

"Of course, classic, spinning-reel slot machines make up only a fraction of the electronic gaming machines available at most casinos. Technology has evolved such that many machines lack physical reels altogether, instead merely projecting the likenesses of spinning symbols onto a video screen. These machines allow “multiline” play, an innovation that became common in the 1990s. Instead of betting on one simple payline, players are able to bet on multiple patterns of paylines—as many as 200 on some machines. This allows for more opportunities to win, but the results are often deceptive. For instance, if you bet $1 on each of five different patterns and then get a $3 payout on one pattern, the machine will treat you like a winner, with flashing lights and congratulatory videos and the requisite clinking of virtual coins. The reality, of course, is that you have lost $2.

“The brain somehow registers a win,” Kevin Harrigan says. “No matter what you think, physically you’re being affected by these things—the lights, the sounds, the graphics—as a win. You can get 150 to 200 of these false wins, which we also call losses, an hour. That’s a lot of positive reinforcement.”

Losses disguised as wins also create a “smoother ride,” as some within the industry call it, allowing a machine to slowly deplete a player’s cash reserves, rather than taking them in a few large swipes. Because the machine is telling the player he or she is winning, the gradual siphoning is less noticeable.

Related to the video slot machines are video-poker terminals, which IGT began popularizing in 1979. The standard five-card-draw game shows five cards, each offering players the option to hold or replace by drawing a card from the 47 remaining in the virtual deck. The games require more skill—or at least a basic understanding of probabilities—than the slot machines do. As such, they appeal to people who want to have some sense of exerting control over the outcome.

But over time, designers of video-poker machines discovered that they could influence gamblers’ behavior by manipulating game details. They saw, for instance, patrons going more often for four of a kind than the royal flush, a rarer but more lucrative hand, and they adjusted the machines accordingly. Video poker also offers its own version of losses disguised as wins. Today’s “multihand” video-poker machines—triple-play, 10-play, and even 100-play—allow patrons to play multiple hands simultaneously. This creates an experience similar to multiline slots, in which players are likely to “win back” a portion of each bet by frequently hitting small pots even as they are steadily losing money overall.

Regardless of the machine—slots, video poker—casinos’ ultimate goal is to maximize players’ “time on device.” This is crucial for casinos, because given enough time, the house always wins. Local regulations typically stipulate that machines must pay out 85 to 95 percent of the bets placed on them—which means that for every $100 inserted into the machine, on average, the player will lose $5 to $15. Whatever the exact figure, the house odds make it such that if a player plays long enough, she will eventually lose her money."

And this from the same article. Again, I have no attachment or opinion of the source site or author.
I have read this type of information in many different articles, pro and con gambling and feel they reflect some reality of the industry. I also feel the game designers, who would/may object to such comments will defend this as hogwash due to their vested interest in design and in such would garner yet another angle to the thread in a self defense sort of way.

I have seen the disappearance of mechanical reel machines in alarming numbers and tend to lean toward the following articles theories.

"These are not your grandma’s one-armed bandits. Today’s electronic gaming machines, or EGMs, feature highly sophisticated computers driven by complex algorithms. Old-fashioned three-reel slot machines consisted of physical reels that were set spinning by the pull of a lever. Each reel would have, for example, 22 “stops”: 11 different symbols, and 11 blank spaces between the symbols, for a total of 10,648 possible combinations. If the same symbol aligned on the payline on all three reels when they stopped spinning, the player would win a jackpot that varied in size depending on the symbol. The odds were straightforward and not terribly hard to calculate.

The big breakthrough in slots technology was the invention of “virtual reel mapping” in 1982. According to NYU’s Schüll, about 20 to 30 percent of slot machines today resemble the old-fashioned ones, with physical spinning reels. But where each reel stops is no longer determined by the force of a good pull of the lever. Rather, a computer chip within the machine chooses an outcome using “virtual reels,” which may include different quantities of the various symbols—more blank spaces, for instance, and fewer symbols for big jackpots. The physical reels are not spinning until they run out of momentum, as it might appear. Rather, the chips “tell” them where to stop the moment a customer pulls the lever or pushes the button. Thus it is possible for game designers to reduce the odds of hitting a big jackpot from 1 in 10,648 to 1 in 137 million. Moreover, it is almost impossible for a slots player to have any idea of the actual odds of winning any jackpot, however large or small.

Virtual reel mapping has also enabled a deliberately misleading feature, the “near miss.” That’s when a jackpot symbol appears directly above or below the payline. The intent is to give the player the impression of having almost won—when, in fact, he or she is no closer to having won than if the symbol had not appeared on the reel at all. Some slot machines are specifically programmed to offer up this near-miss result far more often than they would if they operated by sheer chance, and the psychological impact can be powerful, leading players to think, I was so close. Maybe next time. (As I. Nelson Rose, a professor at Whittier Law School and the author of Gambling and the Law, has written, Nevada regulations operate on the theory that a sophisticated player would be able to tell the real odds of winning by playing a machine long enough. The gambling industry maintains that deceptive near misses do not occur in North American gaming machines, but as Schüll has noted, it has developed a more narrow definition of deceptive near misses, which still allows for “subliminal inducements.”)"

There was an article in the AARP newsletter a couple of months ago that said that one of the side effects of several medicines that older people take for cholesterol and blood pressie can lead to lose of impulse control and to slot addictions.

Well of course the casinos design games in such a way as to induce us to want to play them more.

Clever bastards, aren't they?

Video poker machines do not give a player more opportunities for the Royal Flush. Statements like that cause me to question many of the authors other statements.

This was what stopped me as well. It's illegal for them to gaff the deck, or do anything to interfere with the randomness of the hands and the draw, at least for a class III vp game. Maybe the author is referring to paytable changes and phrases it badly, but as written they're making a false allegation.

There was a thread some time back, as well, that discussed the near miss display. I'm less sure about what got modified, but there was some kind of adjustment required after a successful lawsuit claiming false advertising or something along those lines about deceptive reel stops.

sammy, I need you to only quote about 5 sentences or so of any article you post. It's a fair use copyright thing. Wizard talks about it in the rules. After that much, people are expected to use the link you provided to read the rest.

Think it means they introduced games that pay more for certain 4 oaks like ddb. People want to go for attainable hands like 4oaks as opposed to royal flushes. 400 hand cycles are much easier to achieve then a 40k hand cycle.

Video poker seems to be referred to as the "crack cocaine" of gambling, and I think it's true based on what I've seen from ploppies. VP requires a choice in what you hold and discard, so the player feels like they have an influence on the outcome. I've seen people sitting on machines like a zombie playing video poker more then slots. The fact that it's "skilled" seems to bring more locals to play it then tourists. Most people just randomly hold hands and don't play properly, but they just want the big hit like 4 aces or something. Many would not make "potential" plays which would be dropping made hands into a potential bigger payoff, such as breaking a SF with 3 deuces on DW. Non-paying pairs with a high card is pretty common as well.

I've always found the psychology of gambling interesting. The slot payoffs where the win is lower then the actual bet still sounds like a winner, and I think people just want the feeling of winning something, maybe to compensate for other areas they are lacking in.

Displaying a fake near miss as a psychological enticement is unlawful, displaying a real near miss is of course not illegal. Even on teh old three reel machines I always wanted reach in and move that final reel just one symbol up.

Nicotine, chocolate, the clanging of coins... we all respond to our environment. The brain is an addictive organ, particularly the female brain. We learn to seek a reward. Youth, beauty, lipstick, perfume, the sounds of coins dropping, flashing lights, cries of delight.... all have an effect on us. The "oxygen in the casinos'' is a myth and the fig tree oil is to mask the odor of french fries not to make us put more coins in. Other inducements exist. Shills are usually young, attractive females.

Lottery drawings are televised as an inducement to play it. We all are subject to re-inforcement influences is one fashion or another, but no one really is being forced into anything by insurmountable forces.

I think the casinos operate in the darkness in a way they couldn't if there was no darkness. They wouldn't have any 85% slots if people knew for a fact they were 85%. If slots had warnings the reels cannot be stopped to influence the outcome of a spin, the people playing just because they believe they have skill, would be weeded down. These same machines have the reels set up to make it seem close enough for them to gamble in denial. Regulators dont care about any of these things like 85% must hits, because it works for them, and they don't care if it's a swindle. Just witnessed a man lose yuge four times the guaranteed hit from 10% away. That's one tight machine, criminally tight though completely legal.

I agree slots are just about showing pretty pictures rather than gambling these days. A lot of top symbols arranged just off enough so they don't win a lot, is the goal. Just hate talking about these things with idiots in casinos. Same idiots tell me they don't play to win, but want to be able to play a while, which requires winning to stay with less money invested.

I remember reading somewhere that a guy said he was annoyed when the win he got was LESS than his bet and it gave him a "big win," celebration, think he put in $1, and it gave him a .50 "win" and made a big show of it with the bells and whistles and celabratory music. He continued, "They do know that I LOST money on that bet, don't they?

Quote: Nathan

I remember reading somewhere that a guy said he was annoyed when the win he got was LESS than his bet and it gave him a "big win," celebration, think he put in $1, and it gave him a .50 "win" and made a big show of it with the bells and whistles and celabratory music. He continued, "They do know that I LOST money on that bet, don't they?

I have never seen a game give the "Big Win" celebration for less than the wager amount. Some of the games I have worked on would give it for a win 8x the bet amount. For example, if you bet 300 coins on a penny machine and got a win of $25 (2500 coins) it would give a Big Win celebration.

Okay. Would that be 5 lines per post message maybe, or just 5 lines per article and only one snip per article per thread? As I see many items in articles to link to.

I don't believe I've seen anywhere where a computer designer has to duplicate mechanical reels in any way, odds wise. Mechanical reels from what I seem to remember were changed all the time with more or less symbols as that's one of the way to decrease odds of winning. The fact that programmers have to code in such a way to keep a RF from happening the lest of any result in the first place proves to me a computer program can do whatever it wants depending on design and implementing a RNG or a series of RNG's to create outcomes.

Quote: billryan

Video poker machines do not give a player more opportunities for the Royal Flush. Statements like that cause me to question many of the authors other statements.

I don't see where he says that about RF, the article does state that it is thought that the 'near miss' is offered up quite a bit.

The whole article is about 'less' opportunities and how they're disguised as 'near wins' manipulations.

Quote: billryan

Video poker machines do not give a player more opportunities for the Royal Flush. Statements like that cause me to question many of the authors other statements.

Can you post up the part where they are talking about that please ?

Quote: djatc

Think it means they introduced games that pay more for certain 4 oaks like ddb. People want to go for attainable hands like 4oaks as opposed to royal flushes. 400 hand cycles are much easier to achieve then a 40k hand cycle.

Video poker seems to be referred to as the "crack cocaine" of gambling, and I think it's true based on what I've seen from ploppies. VP requires a choice in what you hold and discard, so the player feels like they have an influence on the outcome. I've seen people sitting on machines like a zombie playing video poker more then slots. The fact that it's "skilled" seems to bring more locals to play it then tourists. Most people just randomly hold hands and don't play properly, but they just want the big hit like 4 aces or something. Many would not make "potential" plays which would be dropping made hands into a potential bigger payoff, such as breaking a SF with 3 deuces on DW. Non-paying pairs with a high card is pretty common as well.

I've always found the psychology of gambling interesting. The slot payoffs where the win is lower then the actual bet still sounds like a winner, and I think people just want the feeling of winning something, maybe to compensate for other areas they are lacking in.

I totally believe casinos want people to play video poker just like they are sitting at a table with people and keep ace kickers and non winning pairs. I believe the reality of a video poker is there is no 52 card deck, instead a new deck is dealt every finished hand. Why else can one explain seeing the same cards in less than 5 hands, and I do. Using standard poker strategy with video poker is an instant losing game.

This goes right with this thread, in that the casinos know their marks and work to create a false winning atmosphere.

Quote: beachbumbabs

This was what stopped me as well. It's illegal for them to gaff the deck, or do anything to interfere with the randomness of the hands and the draw, at least for a class III vp game. Maybe the author is referring to paytable changes and phrases it badly, but as written they're making a false allegation.

I don't think that's what the article said. I think they were talking about DDB and other games where they boosted the payouts for quads by moving money from other awards, esp. 2 pair, and also by splitting out quads pays into kicker/non-kicker hands. Nothing in there about juicing the odds of a royal.

Also, I don't think it's illegal to gaff the deck if you announce it beforehand. You can add a joker after all, that changes the odds from 1/52 to 1/53. And there was another game years ago where each card position was dealt from its own 52-card deck. As long as the player knows what the rules are, I don't think there are restrictions on what those rules can be. Granted, anything new needs to get past regulatory but I don't think there are any hard-and-fast restrictions in the way you're implying.

I hope to be testing that theory in the coming months, btw.

Quote: sammydv

Why else can one explain seeing the same cards in less than 5 hands, and I do. Using standard poker strategy with video poker is an instant losing game.

.

Can you elaborate?

Quote: FleaStiff

Displaying a fake near miss as a psychological enticement is unlawful, displaying a real near miss is of course not illegal. Even on teh old three reel machines I always wanted reach in and move that final reel just one symbol up.

Nicotine, chocolate, the clanging of coins... we all respond to our environment. The brain is an addictive organ, particularly the female brain. We learn to seek a reward. Youth, beauty, lipstick, perfume, the sounds of coins dropping, flashing lights, cries of delight.... all have an effect on us. The "oxygen in the casinos'' is a myth and the fig tree oil is to mask the odor of french fries not to make us put more coins in. Other inducements exist. Shills are usually young, attractive females.

Lottery drawings are televised as an inducement to play it. We all are subject to re-inforcement influences is one fashion or another, but no one really is being forced into anything by insurmountable forces.

""Displaying a fake near miss as a psychological enticement is unlawful, displaying a real near miss is of course not illegal. Even on teh old three reel machines I always wanted reach in and move that final reel just one symbol up.""
What's the difference between a fake near miss and a real near miss? I don't understand the comment.
Thanks.

Quote: sammydv

""Displaying a fake near miss as a psychological enticement is unlawful, displaying a real near miss is of course not illegal. Even on teh old three reel machines I always wanted reach in and move that final reel just one symbol up.""
What's the difference between a fake near miss and a real near miss? I don't understand the comment.
Thanks.

Fake near miss: if the slot machine is going to spin to "blank blank blank", replacing that with another 0-value outcome but an exciting one like "seven seven blank" where the seven is just above the blank on the 3rd reel. That's a violation of NGC reg 14 as of about 1988.

Real near misses are naturally derived from the use of weighted reels (or unweighted reels too, they're just less likely). Those are allowed. If you increase the weight of a blank next to a jackpot symbol, you'll see the jackpot symbol off the payline more often than you would if the weights were equal.

I see the same cards dealt on simple video poker hands way less than a 52 card deck. From what I understood, video poker randomizes every new hand as a new 52 card deck, thus one can't play video poker as in say, counting cards. If this is true, people using old table strategy will lose probably all the time.

Then what does the casino claim? Oh, we use 8 deck video poker? Where would I find such info, it's never seems to be on the games themselves.

And here's another casino mind thing I'm seeing more and more of. Giant multi-denomination multi play default penny games where there's a minimum of 10 dollars needed to start and and can't cash out until after the first play but that first play is like 3 dollars or more. Right off the bat, it forces people to deposit more than they are likely, normally to play at a machine to start. Yea, yea, I know, lots of people just plop 20 in anyways. I'm talking about retired people who seem to work the penny/nickle games so much. The casino is forcing people now to put in a guaranteed minimum to lose first thing. And that people accept this is also a mental thing when compared to what they used to do using their own decisions.

There is nothing, NOTHING that a casino does by mistake. All casinos have experts in psychological fields working for them. Mistakes seem to be limited to actual games on the floor internally by designers when and if AP's can find the flaws. And those, we know are usually taken care of in short order.

Quote: MathExtremist

Fake near miss: if the slot machine is going to spin to "blank blank blank", replacing that with another 0-value outcome but an exciting one like "seven seven blank" where the seven is just above the blank on the 3rd reel. That's a violation of NGC reg 14 as of about 1988.

Real near misses are naturally derived from the use of weighted reels (or unweighted reels too, they're just less likely). Those are allowed. If you increase the weight of a blank next to a jackpot symbol, you'll see the jackpot symbol off the payline more often than you would if the weights were equal.

I'm seeing that all the time so I'm not sure the casinos are even worried about regs from 88'. See it on video slots as well. Blank-blank-jackpot, on the line, above or below. JP-JP-blank. Lot of times on games if you don't put in max coins, even 2 JP won't pay out. Or pay out small. I think those regs went out the window with the multi-line, multi-4+ reel video slots.
Crazy games like 5+ reels and 30 lines.

Quote: sammydv

I see the same cards dealt on simple video poker hands way less than a 52 card deck. From what I understood, video poker randomizes every new hand as a new 52 card deck, thus one can't play video poker as in say, counting cards. If this is true, people using old table strategy will lose probably all the time.

Then what does the casino claim? Oh, we use 8 deck video poker? Where would I find such info, it's never seems to be on the games themselves.

And here's another casino mind thing I'm seeing more and more of. Giant multi-denomination multi play default penny games where there's a minimum of 10 dollars needed to start and and can't cash out until after the first play but that first play is like 3 dollars or more. Right off the bat, it forces people to deposit more than they are likely, normally to play at a machine to start. Yea, yea, I know, lots of people just plop 20 in anyways. I'm talking about retired people who seem to work the penny/nickle games so much. The casino is forcing people now to put in a guaranteed minimum to lose first thing. And that people accept this is also a mental thing when compared to what they used to do using their own decisions.

There is nothing, NOTHING that a casino does by mistake. All casinos have experts in psychological fields working for them.

All standard video poker games use one deck of cards and are shuffled after every hand.

I know this crew and players in Vegas that always and I mean always talk about how the machines are rigged. Heck, one players nick name is the Rig Man! They complain every day and every night but they never stop playing video poker or progressives when they are winners. It's obvious they just like to cry and tell everyone how the games are rigged. This is basically the same information I see in this thread.

If this was true I would of been bust long ago and never stepped foot in a Casino again. About the question of the Casinos manipulating the games and environment to be more addictive?? The answer is undoubtedly... YES! I wouldn't put it past the Casino to do things illegally since I've known of Casinos already paying fines for manipulating video poker to hold back certain cards. However this is not something that happens very often and the Casino certainly does not need to cheat to win.

Quote: sammydv

I see the same cards dealt on simple video poker hands way less than a 52 card deck. From what I understood, video poker randomizes every new hand as a new 52 card deck, thus one can't play video poker as in say, counting cards. If this is true, people using old table strategy will lose probably all the time.

Then what does the casino claim? Oh, we use 8 deck video poker? Where would I find such info, it's never seems to be on the games themselves.

And here's another casino mind thing I'm seeing more and more of. Giant multi-denomination multi play default penny games where there's a minimum of 10 dollars needed to start and and can't cash out until after the first play but that first play is like 3 dollars or more. Right off the bat, it forces people to deposit more than they are likely, normally to play at a machine to start. Yea, yea, I know, lots of people just plop 20 in anyways. I'm talking about retired people who seem to work the penny/nickle games so much. The casino is forcing people now to put in a guaranteed minimum to lose first thing. And that people accept this is also a mental thing when compared to what they used to do using their own decisions.

There is nothing, NOTHING that a casino does by mistake. All casinos have experts in psychological fields working for them. Mistakes seem to be limited to actual games on the floor internally by designers when and if AP's can find the flaws. And those, we know are usually taken care of in short order.

If you were playing a multi-deck VP game, then surely sometimes the same card would be dealt or drawn (in the same hand), no?


wtfisthisthread.jpg

Five of a kinds!

January 15th, 2017 at 11:22:21 AM
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Quote: billryan
Video poker machines do not give a player more opportunities for the Royal Flush. Statements like that cause me to question many of the authors other statements.
Can you post up the part where they are talking about that please ?



Here it is. I misread it, but here is what I misread. I thought he was talking about going for four to a royal. My bad.

"But over time, designers of video-poker machines discovered that they could influence gamblers’ behavior by manipulating game details. They saw, for instance, patrons going more often for four of a kind than the royal flush, a rarer but more lucrative hand, and they adjusted the machines accordingly"

They did not 'adjust the machines '. They adjusted the paytables, which affected strategy. Taken in the larger context of the article leading up to this statement, as well as the phrasing, the strong implication is that the machines are gaffed somehow, which was either the author's intent, or inadvertent allusion. We're still left interpreting what they did mean.

Quote: sammydv

I see the same cards dealt on simple video poker hands way less than a 52 card deck. From what I understood, video poker randomizes every new hand as a new 52 card deck, thus one can't play video poker as in say, counting cards. If this is true, people using old table strategy will lose probably all the time.

Then what does the casino claim? Oh, we use 8 deck video poker? Where would I find such info, it's never seems to be on the games themselves.

And here's another casino mind thing I'm seeing more and more of. Giant multi-denomination multi play default penny games where there's a minimum of 10 dollars needed to start and and can't cash out until after the first play but that first play is like 3 dollars or more. Right off the bat, it forces people to deposit more than they are likely, normally to play at a machine to start. Yea, yea, I know, lots of people just plop 20 in anyways. I'm talking about retired people who seem to work the penny/nickle games so much. The casino is forcing people now to put in a guaranteed minimum to lose first thing. And that people accept this is also a mental thing when compared to what they used to do using their own decisions.

There is nothing, NOTHING that a casino does by mistake. All casinos have experts in psychological fields working for them. Mistakes seem to be limited to actual games on the floor internally by designers when and if AP's can find the flaws. And those, we know are usually taken care of in short order.

No you can't count cards on a VP machine. I just assumed everyone around here knew that.

For the most part you CAN'T gain an advantage on the VP game itself. There are a quite a few expeditions like.... full pay and various forms of deuces wild, various Jokers wild, one eyed jacks, Double Double Bonus, All American, 10/7 double bonus, bonus feature machines. There's been many other forms and variants of +EV machines Like 103% All American I know of 3 occasions only. 10/6 jacks 2 places only. There are some I have never actually seen. Basically This stuff is extinct, rare and generally offered only as enticements, novelties or mistakes.

You must find something extra the casino is offering like a special promotions, progressives, drawings, club benefits, rebates, mistakes etc. With a few exceptions you have to do or have something extra to beat any casino game like card counting. On rare occasions they make a mistake math wise. There's been good rules Blackjack games offered with a small advantage off the top, including Video BJ(Williams comes to mind, IIRC it was .4 off the top) .

Quote: monet0412

I wouldn't put it past the Casino to do things illegally since I've known of Casinos already paying fines for manipulating video poker to hold back certain cards. However this is not something that happens very often and the Casino certainly does not need to cheat to win.

Which casinos manipulated video poker and when.
Do you have any links ?

Quote: monet0412

I wouldn't put it past the Casino to do things illegally since I've known of Casinos already paying fines for manipulating video poker to hold back certain cards. .

Which casinos manipulated video poker games? Do you have a link ?

I don't have a link but I recall reading a casino was fined a few years back for reducing the payouts of a cycle., so there were fewer payouts.

Quote: billryan

I don't have a link but I recall reading a casino was fined a few years back for reducing the payouts of a cycle., so there were fewer payouts.

That just seems incredibly difficult for a casino to do on a video poker machine from a major manufacturer.

I seriously have always hated how the machines "make you think you're winning" while you're giving your money away... For example how slots and VP are "for 1" and not "to 1" on their pays.

Example: You play $1 pull on a slot machine... You hit some crap cobination and get $0.25 in return. The game doesn't say "Net Loss $0.75" but instead says "YOU WIN $0.25!!!" making you think you "won" something when in reality all you did was LOSE 3/4 your bet! I think it should be illegal for a machine to say you "won" anything less than or equal to your original wager value.

Same goes for VP... Simplest example is Jacks or Better, hitting a pair of jacks. That's a push... yet the machine will say "WIN 5" like you won something when you didn't win jack crap. Bothers me to no end the sleazy mind games casinos use like this.

Another example is payouts... There's billboards by me that say crap like "We paid out $100,000,000 last year!" but the real trick to it is that's on "ANY" win. So you play a spin for $5 and win $1, they count that $1 towards what they "paid out" to the public (even though they kept $4 of your $5 bet). Goes right back to my old stats professors favorite quote: "Figures never lie, but liars sometimes figure."

Quote: Hunterhill

Which casinos manipulated video poker games? Do you have a link ?

I don't want to get into it too much. If you want to look up one Casino that did this look up Laughlin and see if you can find the machine that used to hold out one of the Aces.

Anyways I hit this today during Martin Luther King Day downtown. I had some trouble getting out onto the Highway since they had all streets blocked. Riots all over the place and the pigs had all but one door closed to get out onto the Experience. I hate weekends and holidays downtown :(

However it was nice to get ahead for the month since I was stuck almost 20 dimes. I brought 11k with me today and wasn't planning on playing. I was down to about my last 600 dollars when things started to turn around and around 230 or so I flopped the 4 deuces with a Ten of Hearts and I was bitching that I wanted the Wild Royal. Anyways not too bad I hit 8 Aces for the extra 2k. No tip but I will go back in the morning and take care of the two people who paid me with Walmart Gift Cards so they don't have to chop and pay taxes.

I guess the game is rigged but rigged in my favor today!!

Quote: Romes

I seriously have always hated how the machines "make you think you're winning" while you're giving your money away... For example how slots and VP are "for 1" and not "to 1" on their pays.

Example: You play $1 pull on a slot machine... You hit some crap cobination and get $0.25 in return. The game doesn't say "Net Loss $0.75" but instead says "YOU WIN $0.25!!!" making you think you "won" something when in reality all you did was LOSE 3/4 your bet! I think it should be illegal for a machine to say you "won" anything less than or equal to your original wager value.

Same goes for VP... Simplest example is Jacks or Better, hitting a pair of jacks. That's a push... yet the machine will say "WIN 5" like you won something when you didn't win jack crap. Bothers me to no end the sleazy mind games casinos use like this.

Another example is payouts... There's billboards by me that say crap like "We paid out $100,000,000 last year!" but the real trick to it is that's on "ANY" win. So you play a spin for $5 and win $1, they count that $1 towards what they "paid out" to the public (even though they kept $4 of your $5 bet). Goes right back to my old stats professors favorite quote: "Figures never lie, but liars sometimes figure."

"Same goes for VP... Simplest example is Jacks or Better, hitting a pair of jacks. That's a push... yet the machine will say "WIN 5" like you won something when you didn't win jack crap. Bothers me to no end the sleazy mind games casinos use like this."
Yep, because in our minds we go "cool, I'm even and still got my original 5!" It's when that amount reaches hundreds and the push changes to loss on the next bet. People keep trying to lose their money. I'm bothered by the overwhelming amount of reading one has to do now looking at these huge games. No one wants to take the time. And how about the classic results for blank and low payouts are almost always below the chair area by your feet on the games. Just the fact that you have to search for this shit is the casinos playing with your mind and time.

Monet0412..that was an incredible win as far as I'm concerned, but I believe jackpot posts have their own board.
The jackpot part didn't really seem to connect on this thread.
If you carry 11K when you don't play, I got to wonder what you pack when you want to play. Hope people don't know what what you carry for lunch money. lol

Also on that game, if deuces wild is the jackpot, then a RF wouldn't pay as much?

It's a jackpot because it paid $1200 or more.

Quote: sammydv

Monet0412..that was an incredible win as far as I'm concerned, but I believe jackpot posts have their own board.
The jackpot part didn't really seem to connect on this thread.
If you carry 11K when you don't play, I got to wonder what you pack when you want to play. Hope people don't know what what you carry for lunch money. lol

Also on that game, if deuces wild is the jackpot, then a RF wouldn't pay as much?

I think it's relevant. I am showing that the machines don't always miss by one card or that they do hit large hands. It isn't very uncommon for me to see the same big hands all the time and I see a lot of near misses. Just a few days ago I hit 7 sets of Aces on single line, not on the same machine but within 8 hours. My friend still holds the record with 11 sets of Aces in less than 6 hours on two machines and that was before TITO. A few years ago some lady hit 6 or 7 Royals on Single line (a few different machines and denominations) at the Skyline, I was there but I think it was 7 Royals but can't remember for sure but I know it was at least 6 Royals. This is Video Poker. That is how it goes. It isn't rigged. I do agree that Rigged Machines have been found and I am sure that they are still out there. However in Nevada I am a firm believer that the game is on the level. If I didn't believe that I wouldn't play things like 100 play Quarters. I wouldn't even play single line nickels if I thought things were Rigged in some way or another. My point is that the people who play machines and think they are rigged do not put enough time in. They just don't have enough hands or coin in. Now I know other players who think they are rigged no matter what but they keep playing. They just like to complain how the machines are rigged. I've seen them up over 20k and still telling me how they are rigged! I find that things start to break right at about 100k coin in and they really break perfect after 1mil coin in. I can't back it up. It is just my experience over the years of playing day after day after day. Perhaps the picture and the post didn't fit perfectly into your thread but I guess I was just emotional. Sometimes posts get Off Topic and I tend to be one of those people who get Off Topic a lot.

Also this is a real life experience. Not some simulation in the practice room. I had to deal with all the normal BS like congratulations on your 1600 dollar jackpot when I am losing 9 dimes and I had to deal with the cocktail girl in my ear all day yelling "cocktails"... even asking me directly... 5 TIMES... if I need a drink when I have a case of Coke right next to me lol. I had to deal with the penny players right next to me whispering about how much I have on my machine and the guy on the right of me flopping a dealt wild royal on penny 50 play asking me why it didn't pay him more than $62.50??? Well, sir... your playing pennies and that hand is $1.25 times 50 so you get $62.50 which is a huge win on that game your playing!! Factor in the noise and smoke and the people behind me playing Fe Fi Fo Fum. It is a wonder I didn't mess up holding all four deuces.

A flopped royal or for some of you people who don't like the word flopped in VP... a Dealt Royal on this game loaded would pay 100k. 4 Ducks with the Ace on the flop would pay 50k. It isn't hard to get a "jackpot" on this game since all you need is any pay over $1199.

I don't mind walking around with cash. The machines I play don't take checks or credit cards so I need the C Notes. I guess I could have accounts in the Casino or some places will give you a safety deposit box that just isn't my style.

Nice post, thanks for input.

And then, there is this m?qid=3113 Ooops

Quote: fastXXXeddie

And then, there is this m?qid=3113 Ooops

Eh???

Quote: BTLWI

That just seems incredibly difficult for a casino to do on a video poker machine from a major manufacturer.

They messed with the chips.

I was playing a slot machine next to a woman who told me she gambled and lost her rent money in tight slot machines. So sad and so disgusting. How irresponsible do you have to be to risk not having your rent paid?

Quote: Nathan

I was playing a slot machine next to a woman who told me she gambled and lost her rent money in tight slot machines. So sad and so disgusting. How irresponsible do you have to be to risk not having your rent paid?

Yeah but if you win 2x your rent, you don't have to worry about next month.

Quote: djatc

Yeah but if you win 2x your rent, you don't have to worry about next month.

But if you lose, you end up having to beg your landlord for an extension which is awkward and embarrassing and they just might kick you out! Though in a some kind of survey, most landlords say they do grant one time extensions...

Quote: Nathan

I was playing a slot machine next to a woman who told me she gambled and lost her rent money in tight slot machines. So sad and so disgusting. How irresponsible do you have to be to risk not having your rent paid?

Only one thing worse than a degenerate gambler who can't make the rent... A Land Lord!!

Quote: Nathan

I was playing a slot machine next to a woman who told me she gambled and lost her rent money in tight slot machines. So sad and so disgusting. How irresponsible do you have to be to risk not having your rent paid?

Is that a sign of gambling addiction? A friends wife used mortgage payments at the casino.
Think there may be a problem there?

Quote: Nathan

But if you lose, you end up having to beg your landlord for an extension which is awkward and embarrassing and they just might kick you out! Though in a some kind of survey, most landlords say they do grant one time extensions...

So are landlords addicted to renters? I'm trying to grasp the relevance of landlord/tenant arrangements to this thread.

Quote: Nathan

But if you lose, you end up having to beg your landlord for an extension which is awkward and embarrassing and they just might kick you out! Though in a some kind of survey, most landlords say they do grant one time extensions...

Offer to cut their hair for free for an extension.