What is the worst anyone can do playing Roulette?
So what's the worst someone can do playing Roulette over their lifetime? I'm serious.
I ask because it's my experience that at least 90% of the folks who shuffle up the the Roulette table play until they lose their bankroll - but that 90% is just a guess. There are a few folks who walk away with more than what they brought but I just find it difficult to believe that they take away 94.74% in daily table wagers to lower the casino's HA to just 5.26% for the day.
Has anyone or any university ever done a study where the REAL casino House Advantage has been disclosed for Roulette?
I just have not seen where the casino only keeps 5.26% - I'm thinking it's much higher than that but I'm just guessing.
Thanks.......
Most people who lose their bankroll play until they lose it.
Few people who lose their bankroll play much after that.
House Edge applies to money wagered, not bankroll.
Drop and Hold are different than House Edge.
Quote: FleaStiffDrop and Hold are different than House Edge.
In other words, "house edge" refers to individual bets.
The "hold" refers to the actual profit: cash out minus cash in.
For the record, I seriously believe a casino could offer a game with a zero house edge (like Roulette without ANY zeros), and still make money. How? Greed. Winners will play down their winnings hoping for another big hit. Losers will chase their losses until they are broke.
The hold remains the same, it just took a few minutes longer to get there.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI was about to say:
For the record, I seriously believe a casino could offer a game with a zero house edge (like Roulette without ANY zeros), and still make money.
Lol- you sound like a Martingale proponent! Which zero house edge bet is the casino going to make it's money on? If you think about it I am sure you will retract your statement.
Have you seen the DirectTV commercials? Selling your hair to a wig shop.
Seriously, the worst anyone can do is lose all the money they have in the world, and commit suicide / go to jail.
Yes, the hold at a Roulette table is more than the house advantage.
Well, forgive my mixing and matching of terms - I simply asked if there is a study available anywhere that delves into the true House Advantage of a casino and not the theoretical value we all know.
Or does everyone believe the following:
A $100 table at the Bellagio has an average of 1 gambler betting once per minute for 24 hours - that means that at the end of 24 hours $144,000 has been wagered (24 hrs * 60 minutes * 1 bet per minute).
The House Advantage/Edge is 5.26% (American wheel and no 1st 5 ever bet that day) so does everyone believe:
1) The Bellagio awards 94.74% or $136,425 to lucky gamblers that day
2) Only keeps $7,574 for the day (5.26%)?
I just don't see that happening in real life and the reason I asked the question.
Now if you object to just 24 hours how about 365 days? The HA should be predominant then - right?
Quote: SOOPOOLol- you sound like a Martingale proponent! Which zero house edge bet is the casino going to make it's money on? If you think about it I am sure you will retract your statement.
A casino can make money with a negative house edge (positive player edge) as well. Provided the game requieres a strategy and that the majority of players don't know it or don't follow it well. Because then the edge swings back to the house's favor.
The problem is that a few knowledgeable gamblers could break the casino at such games.
Martingale proponent? Not at all. Just someone who has heard enough people talk about Roulette and coming up with one system or another - all Martingale variants - to firmly believe that a casino would still win even if there was no edge.Quote: SOOPOOLol- you sound like a Martingale proponent! Which zero house edge bet is the casino going to make it's money on? If you think about it I am sure you will retract your statement.
Quote: MauiSunsetA $100 table at the Bellagio has an average of 1 gambler betting once per minute for 24 hours - that means that at the end of 24 hours $144,000 has been wagered (24 hrs * 60 minutes * 1 bet per minute).
The House Advantage/Edge is 5.26% (American wheel and no 1st 5 ever bet that day) so does everyone believe:
1) The Bellagio awards 94.74% or $136,425 to lucky gamblers that day
2) Only keeps $7,574 for the day (5.26%)?
I just don't see that happening in real life and the reason I asked the question.
Yes, that's generally what happens. You have variance to deal with -- it's rare to hit $7,574 exactly, but you'll be closer to that than anything else.
Do you know what the average daily win on roulette is for the big casinos on the LV strip? Look here:
http://www.gaming.nv.gov/documents/pdf/1g_12mar.pdf
Looking at just the March 2012 numbers for LV Strip, >$72M, I calculate the daily roulette win at $2,608.79.
Quote: DJTeddyBearMartingale proponent? Not at all. Just someone who has heard enough people talk about Roulette and coming up with one system or another - all Martingale variants - to firmly believe that a casino would still win even if there was no edge.
So how come folks don't talk about this?
All I hear is the House Edge/Advantage of games and that's somehow a guiding light for gamblers.
The Hold, the House Advantage, whatever you want to call it is huge for Roulette - I don't have a clue how much it is but that's the number folks should be aware of, not the HA.
Just my view.............
Quote: MauiSunsetSo how come folks don't talk about this?
All I hear is the House Edge/Advantage of games and that's somehow a guiding light for gamblers.
The Hold, the House Advantage, whatever you want to call it is huge for Roulette - I don't have a clue how much it is but that's the number folks should be aware of, not the HA.
The hold percentage is entirely dependent on how many times you re-bet your bankroll. That's why it's not important from a player's standpoint, because it's not worth keeping track of how many times you play through your initial buy-in, or what your wager to buy-in ratio is. A player who makes $5 bets in roulette for an hour has a different expected hold depending on whether they buy in for $100 or $200. Hold is only used by casinos as a rough yardstick to evaluate table game performance because they *can't* get actual handle and therefore compute actual win/handle the was machine games can. Hold is just win/drop.
Quote: MathExtremistYes, that's generally what happens. You have variance to deal with -- it's rare to hit $7,574 exactly, but you'll be closer to that than anything else.
Do you know what the average daily win on roulette is for the big casinos on the LV strip? Look here:
http://www.gaming.nv.gov/documents/pdf/1g_12mar.pdf
Looking at just the March 2012 numbers for LV Strip, >$72M, I calculate the daily roulette win at $2,608.79.
Thanks for the info.
So for Roulette the "Winning Rate" is 16% for the year. (Adjusted for the effects for credit play; does that mean comps?)
If it means that the casino keeps 16% and hands out 84% in winnings they must do it between 3 AM and 4 AM when I'm not at a table.
This still seems to be a very low number but it's a hard number and I know more now then an hour ago.
Thanks.
Bingo seems to have the lowest "Win %" for the casino - so I should have listened to my mom and played Bingo all these years?.....
Hang on tight......
Ken
Quote: MauiSunsetAll I hear is the House Edge/Advantage of games and that's somehow a guiding light for gamblers.
Yes, but it's not all there is.
Take Blackjack and Video Poker, for example, two games with a commonly low house edge. For starters, nto every BJ and VP has a low edge. You need to look for the good rules and favorable pay tables. Second, both games require a strategy, which depends on the rules and pay tables. So:
1) If you pick a BJ or VP game at random, you won't necessarily find a low house edge
2) If you play either game without a notion of the rigth strategy, the house edge will be much larger.
3) If you play the rigth strategy but with some errors, the house edge will aslo be larger.
Then you have to consider thigns like variance, time of play, etc. You may buy-in $100 at a $10 BJ table and get dealt ten losing hands in a row. You've lost all your bankroll, but that doesn't mean the house edge is 100%.
Quote: NareedYes, but it's not all there is.
Take Blackjack and Video Poker, for example, two games with a commonly low house edge. For starters, nto every BJ and VP has a low edge. You need to look for the good rules and favorable pay tables. Second, both games require a strategy, which depends on the rules and pay tables. So:
1) If you pick a BJ or VP game at random, you won't necessarily find a low house edge
2) If you play either game without a notion of the rigth strategy, the house edge will be much larger.
3) If you play the rigth strategy but with some errors, the house edge will aslo be larger.
Then you have to consider thigns like variance, time of play, etc. You may buy-in $100 at a $10 BJ table and get dealt ten losing hands in a row. You've lost all your bankroll, but that doesn't mean the house edge is 100%.
This kind of gets to the reason I asked my original question - just what is the worst possible way to play Roulette that insures you lose the most money the fastest way?
I'm going to guess that picking individual numbers, Straight Up, and using a Martingale, should just about be the fastest way - but that's just a guess.
I'm trying to get a handle on what NOT to recommend to folks....
P.S.
If you believe in the House Advantage and it's constant at 5.26% (Forget the 1st 5), in ANY combination of bets you can think of, then it almost doesn't matter which system you use - or does it?
Quote: MauiSunsetThis kind of gets to the reason I asked my original question - just what is the worst possible way to play Roulette that insures you lose the most money the fastest way?
It varies. But chasing lossses or Martingaling helps.
Quote:If you believe in the House Advantage and it's constant at 5.26% (Forget the 1st 5), in ANY combination of bets you can think of, then it almost doesn't matter which system you use - or does it?
It doesn't matter.
BTW the house edge is along-term number. In the short term, your odds of hitting a number are way worse than the HE. I think it's 1/38. It's the difference between the odds and the payoff that make the house edge.
So let's say there was a game where you pick one number between one and one million. Your odds of hitting the winning number, assuming it's chosen by the casino at random, are 1 in one million. If the payoff was 1,000,000 to 1, that would be a zero edge bet. But you'd figure you'd have to place a large number of bets before you hit the payoff.
Obviously you would bet table limits every spin but your nightmare is actually winning a spin.
Is there a head-and-shoulder winner/loser of a system out there that loses the most money the fastest way?
(You guys seem smart and I'm just trying to get an answer to a question that I don't know has ever been asked before, but every Roulette gambler should know)
Well, that's something of a different question.Quote: MauiSunsetThis kind of gets to the reason I asked my original question - just what is the worst possible way to play Roulette that insures you lose the most money the fastest way?
For what it's worth, I realize that this is something of a smart-ass answer, but here goes....
The fastest wat to lose the bankroll, i.e. the stupidest thing you can do, is to bet half your money on Red, half on Black. You'll effectively be pushing, until 0 or 00 comes up. Then you're done.
Note that in Europe and Atlantic City (and maybe some other areas), they have interesting "en prison" rules regarding the even money bets when 0 or 00 comes up. In that case, just bet one third on each of the three dozens.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI was about to say:
In other words, "house edge" refers to individual bets.
The "hold" refers to the actual profit: cash out minus cash in.
For the record, I seriously believe a casino could offer a game with a zero house edge (like Roulette without ANY zeros), and still make money. How? Greed. Winners will play down their winnings hoping for another big hit. Losers will chase their losses until they are broke.
The hold remains the same, it just took a few minutes longer to get there.
I've asked this question on the forum before and got an overwhelming response from those in the math community that a 0% edge slot or table would produce ZERO profit for the casino in the long run. Someone may bust their 100 dollar bankroll and be forced to quit down, but then other players would come later and even it out.
Quote: MauiSunsetLet me put it this way - let's say I hold a contest and everyone get's $1,000,000 in cash and you must lose it all - and the person that loses the $1,000,000 first is the winner and gets another $1,000,000 for his stellar performance.
Obviously you would bet table limits every spin but your nightmare is actually winning a spin.
Is there a head-and-shoulder winner/loser of a system out there that loses the most money the fastest way?
(You guys seem smart and I'm just trying to get an answer to a question that I don't know has ever been asked before, but every Roulette gambler should know)
Your instinct was right. Betting the inside numbers only has a 1/36 chance of success, so that'd be the way to go versus playing something with a better chance of success (red/black, even/odd)
Quote: MauiSunsetLet me put it this way - let's say I hold a contest and everyone get's $1,000,000 in cash and you must lose it all - and the person that loses the $1,000,000 first is the winner and gets another $1,000,000 for his stellar performance.
Obviously you would bet table limits every spin but your nightmare is actually winning a spin.
Is there a head-and-shoulder winner/loser of a system out there that loses the most money the fastest way?
(You guys seem smart and I'm just trying to get an answer to a question that I don't know has ever been asked before, but every Roulette gambler should know)
Well the payout on splits is worse than a straight number, so I'd start there. I'd bet only 4 way splits for the table max.
Since you have a bankroll that goes far beyond typical table limits, I'd then say to just max out every bet, inside and outside - except no bet on 0 or 00. Every spin that isn't a 0 or 00 is a net push. But after a couple (several?) 0 or 00 spins, your bankroll will be zero.Quote: MauiSunsetLet me put it this way - let's say I hold a contest and everyone get's $1,000,000 in cash and you must lose it all - and the person that loses the $1,000,000 first is the winner and gets another $1,000,000 for his stellar performance.
Obviously you would bet table limits every spin but your nightmare is actually winning a spin.
No it's not.Quote: winmonkeyspit3Well the payout on splits is worse than a straight number....
Quote: MauiSunsetLet me put it this way - let's say I hold a contest and everyone get's $1,000,000 in cash and you must lose it all - and the person that loses the $1,000,000 first is the winner and gets another $1,000,000 for his stellar performance.
Not fastest, maybe, but surest: bet on every number table max every spin. That's a guaranteed loser. There are 38 numbers, but you get paid 35 to 1. So for every 38 units you bet, you loose 3 in every spin.
You'd lose faster if you found a Benny Binion type sho'd let you bet the million on black or red, and you lost. But what if it hits? Assuming you want to lsoe it, that is.
That's confined to roulette. If other games are allowed, Keno has the highest hosue edge of any game. Slots are pretty bad, too, as are carnival games, expecially the side bets. But one winning side bet would set you back a ways.
Quote:Is there a head-and-shoulder winner/loser of a system out there that loses the most money the fastest way?
That wins, no, unless you find an advantage play like counting cards, counting a side bet, etc. For losing, I just told you how to consistently lose at roulette every time, even when you hit a number.
And the comps you'd get for losing that million over hundreds of spins at roulette would be incredible! ;)
Quote: MauiSunsetWow, I've struck a nerve apparently.
Well, forgive my mixing and matching of terms - I simply asked if there is a study available anywhere that delves into the true House Advantage of a casino and not the theoretical value we all know.
Or does everyone believe the following:
A $100 table at the Bellagio has an average of 1 gambler betting once per minute for 24 hours - that means that at the end of 24 hours $144,000 has been wagered (24 hrs * 60 minutes * 1 bet per minute).
The House Advantage/Edge is 5.26% (American wheel and no 1st 5 ever bet that day) so does everyone believe:
1) The Bellagio awards 94.74% or $136,425 to lucky gamblers that day
2) Only keeps $7,574 for the day (5.26%)?
I just don't see that happening in real life and the reason I asked the question.
Now if you object to just 24 hours how about 365 days? The HA should be predominant then - right?
The casino isn't destroying everyone, just watch next time, people's stacks of 1 dollar or 5 dollar chips may be diminishing rapidly, but if they're hitting numbers for 3 dollars or more you will hear "Joe, 105 out, 1 black over" or "Bill, we got 175, 1 black 75 red". People are pocketing black chips on their wins very frequently in this game. There is a large HA on this game, but it is much less than the Big 6 Wheel or most video slots, but some people still win on them in the short run.
Quote: DJTeddyBearNo it's not.
My mistake, you're right. This is why I don't play roulette :)
How about known Roulette systems? I've got 500 of them, all losers, and if you vary the money management probably 2,000 systems - easily.
If we don't try to lose money on purpose, but follow the rules of published Roulette systems, is there one that stands out as clearly the dumbest thing a human could do at a Roulette table? I've got my worst favorite ones but I'd like to hear some fresh ideas.
Again, this is a list I'm compiling of the dumbest things you can do at the Roulette table - besides tipping the dealer taking your money.............
Quote: NareedNot fastest, maybe, but surest: bet on every number table max every spin. That's a guaranteed loser. There are 38 numbers, but you get paid 35 to 1. So for every 38 units you bet, you loose 3 in every spin.
We know you meant that we would lose 2 every spin . (as they pay 35-1 and leave your winning chip on the table).
Quote: EdgeLookerWe know you meant that we would lose 2 every spin . (as they pay 35-1 and leave your winning chip on the table).
I'm seriously not good at math...
Quote: NareedI'm seriously not good at math...
Maybe that's why you last recipe for biscuits came out flat. Remember there are 16 oz in a pint.
Assuming that you will be playing in the US. The most common wheel found here is a TCS Huxley roulette wheel, Mark Series.
When most of these wheels come from the factory, the center cone panel seams split the middle of the numbers 17,18, and split the 1/00, 2/0. Panel seams are the joints in the center cone where the wood laminates meet. These cheap thin laminates are adhered to a cheap composite material below.
As the wheel begins to age, temperature fluctuations, humidity, etc cause the laminates to warp somewhat. Consequently ridges can sometimes form at these joints. Since there is a ridge splitting the middle of these two numbers, the ball is less likely to roll back into them,( when the ball escapes through the front of the pocket and rolls up and onto the center cone). When the ball encounters the ridge, it is more likely to be diverted to the left or to the right.
Next, the 0, and 00. The zeros are heavily bet by many roulette players. The casino would quickly spot a wheel that was losing money to the zeros. When tables are showing a drop, the zeros will often get extra attention from maintenance.
Also, the proximity of the panel seams located in these areas also tend to make these two numbers hit a bit below expectation for the above reasons.
In short, bet the 0,00, 17,18 if you'd like to lose at a rate that exceeds the built in house edge.
-Keyser
Thats why i always bet 1 thru 35 inclusive. My mom did not raise any fools, except for my brother.
I'm assuming that no such test has ever been done, but that's just a guess on my part. I doubt any such anomalies is greater than the 5.26% House Advantage and makes no difference at the end of the day to winning. Losing, you are probably correct - every little bit helps.
It amuses me the number of mysterious forces and secret math gamblers need to "beat Roulette"....
Me too. How long will it take Roulette players to figure out that the only proven way to beat a casino
is with dice setting ? SIGH
Quote: Mauisunsetknow some folks believe in Advantage Play - that studying the physics of the wheel, the ball, the spin of the dealer, the humidity, the static electricity, phases of the moon, etc can give you an advantage over the casino. Personally I think this is just nonsense but everyone's entitled to their beliefs. With automated tables a spin once per minute would take just 70 days to have 100,000 spins and these anomalies should stand out, with statistical significance, if there really is something that can give the gambler an advantage.
Perhaps you should tell that to George Melas, the chief wheel engineer at TCS Huxley. His website is rouletteresearch.com
He documents advantage play methods on his website.
-Keyser.
-Keyser.
I have this device I sell that repels Bengal tigers.. As proof that it works, there are no Bengal Tigers within a hundred miles of my home in Colorado. Yes, I do accept paypal.
Quote: KeyserPerhaps you should tell that to George Melas, the chief wheel engineer at TCS Huxley. His website is rouletteresearch.com
He documents advantage play methods on his website.
-Keyser.
Thanks, when I get the time I'll look at any research on the site.
However, AP is easy to prove - I just never see any proof anywhere - maybe that site will have it.
I don't know what AP folks do with their theories - the casinos I frequent all have the dealer turn his/her head away from the wheel as they spin the ball. Maybe there are cracks and bumps on the wheel but honestly I don't see how that helps me. But I don't claim to be any kind of an expert on Roulette - just someone who gathers facts and trends.
I can say that if the dealer stared hard at the wheel and did some practice releases I'd ask to speak to the manager on duty and have him explain what's going on with the dealer....
Quote: BuzzpuffI have this device I sell that repels Bengal tigers.. As proof that it works, there are no Bengal Tigers within a hundred miles of my home in Colorado. Yes, I do accept paypal.
I've have a horse racing method that tracks when horses take a dump. It works everytime. I haven't stepped in it yet. And yes, I too accept paypal.
I have a pilot program running now and it should be showing up at a race track close by very soon.
I'm waiting to hear back from Shuffle Master. However, they are very biased towards new games. Those rotten @#$%!
To date, nobody is stepping in the horse poop while using it.
Quote: MauiSunsetI know some folks believe in Advantage Play - that studying the physics of the wheel, the ball, the spin of the dealer, the humidity, the static electricity, phases of the moon, etc can give you an advantage over the casino.
There was an attempt back in the 70s or 80s, I think, by a group of college-related people to do such a thing. The Eudonomics group, if memory serves. the trick was to emasure the speed of the ball and the wheel, and I guess the positions, too. This was fed to a computer and the software predicted the octant where the ball would most likely land.
I believe this for two reasons. One, the claims are not outlandish, but rather offer a reasonable prediction of a probability. Two, the team never managed to implement their system, largely because computers at the time weren't small ro sophisticated enough to do this.
Come to think of it, I may have the dates mixed up. There was an episode of "Mission: Impossible" where they use such a system, much simplified and miniaturized, to cheat at a roulette table. Of course, in the TV show it worked wonders (the exact number the ball would land on was displayed on a calendar watch).
you should expect an offer from SMI immediately.
-Keyser.
Quote: KeyserWhile the Eudemonics were attempting to gain an advantage with visual ballistics, players were already winning several million all across Europe and even Africa with it. Such players forced fundamental changes in wheel design, and gaming law. The history of such events can be found on George Melas's website, as well as in encyclopedias. The Eudemonics were behind the times in their venture and their attempts sorely missed the mark. They were by no means pioneers in roulette prediction. They were, however, pioneers in other fields.
-Keyser.
I'm not a Vegas casino manager but I've got to believe that they have a constant program monitoring each Roulette table 24/7 and if the computer detects even the slightest loss of expected revenue alarm bells go off in the manager's office. Something's wrong - employees are cheating, players are cheating, or space aliens have discovered Roulette. I just can't imagine that anything goes unnoticed in the pits....
