Indian Casino VP

I’ve played VP for many years, I started playing after reading a book of some kind and if memory serves me, I bought and trained with WinPoker software or similar a long time ago. Before that was available, I studied and carried strategy cards with me. I wouldn’t call myself an expert but I’ve seen many hands in 25+yrs. as it’s very nearly the only game in any casino that I’ve played. I played a ton when online casinos were in their infancy. I wish I had the money I do now then because VP+online casinos was a killer combination. In my online career, beginning very close to the start of online casinos to UIGEA, I lost money in only one month.

All of that said, there are VP machines in Indian casinos in my home state of Oklahoma and I am convinced with zero evidence outside of feel and intuition that these are not a random shuffle. They look like VP, they sound and play like regular VP but they don’t feel right. In addition, my results that I have not kept records of as I did in the online days is abysmal. I’m not sure what a mathematical statistically acceptable sample size would be to determine whether my suspicions are correct but I won’t be playing enough anymore to contribute to any investigation as I stopped playing them years ago.

My question is how on earth do the things work? I understand enough about this stuff to be dangerous but I cannot fathom how one can design a game that looks, sounds and works exactly like a legit game without a random shuffle. For example, if the machine decided to allow a JP to happen, what happens if a player holds the wrong cards? I’ve gotten many 4OAK’s but they vary as to how I end up getting them, I’ve won holding one card, two or three.

Many years I saw a VP expert of some sort, could have been MS, an IGT programmer or Bob Dancer or maybe someone else, I cannot remember explain what’s happening in a random machine about as simply as I’ve seen. Imagine a virtual deck continually shuffling and when you push deal/draw, it stops.

Does anyone have any idea if I’m correct and if so, how does it work?

Thank you!

-K

Look up "Class II" machines.

I have never seen a Class-2 video poker machine, but I HAVE seen Class-2 slot machines, because there are some right here in California. I finally got to see how there is a little "bingo" thing on them.

Don't mess with them until you can confirm they are Class-3. Oklahoma does both. Some of the big places, like WinStar in Thackerville, Choctaw in Grant and Durant, do Class-3 for their Video Poker. I'm pretty sure I am correct on that. But double-check for yourself.

Take the time to look for the "bingo" thing, so that once you see it with your own eyes you'll always recognize it.

By the way, I saw a set of slots recently that only had wording that implied "Class-2", and no bingo thing that I could find. I believe they were on some Multimedia Gaming devices. (off top of my head)

Quote: bobbartop

Don't mess with them until you can confirm they are Class-3. Oklahoma does both. Some of the big places, like WinStar in Thackerville, Choctaw in Grant and Durant, do Class-3 for their Video Poker. I'm pretty sure I am correct on that.

I have only seen class III at the places listed above.

A Class III VP machine should have randomly dealt hands and should be safe to play.

A Class II VP machine should be avoided at all costs.

These machines do NOT look like class II machines, I’m quite familiar with the difference and I understand exactly what this means, how they work and why they are to be avoided. If they are bingo-based (class II) there is absolutely no difference between them and slots. I believe that these are Class II or at least not a random shuffle (if there is such a thing). In fact, my sloppy hunch is that these machines offer a lower return than some of the slot machines.

I have not looked specifically for the bingo card and have never seen it on these machines either. Doesn’t mean it’s not there but I think I would have noticed it as I spent hours in front of the silly things. I now play occasional poker tournaments and a little bit of 1/2 at another casino about a block away from there so I will most certainly look next time I’m there.

I spoke pretty broadly, the specific casino (not sure it matters or whether there are different variants across the state) is at Apach Ft Sill Casino in Lawton, Oklahoma. I have played VP in others in Oklahoma that seemed to play normally, and my observations are about as pathetically anecdotal as it gets- the only basis that I have to question them is my experience (quite a lot of coin-in over several years) and terrible results. I seem to get far less 4oak’s and have gotten exactly zero with a kicker (DDB exclusive play). I understand varience and probability and I have done exactly zero math to substantiate any of this and I know that this is full of holes. I have played VP at a number of casinos in Oklahoma and some just don’t feel random but some do. Seems like too many dealt almost made hands and not enough that complete.

For example, Winstar seems fine. Apache in Lawton and Lucky Star in Clinton do not. At all. Neither does Riverwind.

Must they be marked in some way? Can someone definitively say that the returns on VP machines can be set either my IGT or the casino management independent of paytables?

I’ve thought about this for years and there is no person/place that I know of to ask, so after listening to a podcast I thought I’d post here. I used to do a lot of research online about various VP/casino topics and many moons ago was an active contributor to Bryan’s site, Casinomeister and others. I’ve gotten away from all of that for a variety of reasons. I’m pretty sure that I lurked here from time to time and I’m familiar with Bob Dancer and Michael’s work, I read a lot of what they wrote many years ago.

My entire hunch is on shaky ground but I couch this in the knowledge that tribal gaming has no real and transparent independent 3rd party oversight. It is my belief that they can pretty much do as they please. I just don’t know for certain and thought someone here might.

Hope this clears up confusion and generates some thoughts or better yet someone who knows because I do not. I do know one thing- I don’t stick my winnings from elsewhere in these places anymore. :)

I've always wanted to try this on a Class-2 vp machine but have never had the opportunity yet. If you are dealt a flush, discard all five cards and see if you re-draw another flush. I've heard that you do. Can't confirm. Might just be an old rumor I heard once.

In the beginning of your post above, you mentioned that if it is bingo-based (Class-2) then there is no difference between them and slots. That's not true.

Quote: bobbartop

I've always wanted to try this on a Class-2 vp machine but have never had the opportunity yet. If you are dealt a flush, discard all five cards and see if you re-draw another flush. I've heard that you do. Can't confirm. Might just be an old rumor I heard once.

In the beginning of your post above, you mentioned that if it is bingo-based (Class-2) then there is no difference between them and slots. That's not true.

Sorry, let me re-phrase that, I was late on my old man meds tonight.

Class-2 and Class-3 SLOTS work differently. I don't know why I had to say that, you certainly didn't. I apologize. I'm a little bit goofy.

Quote: bobbartop

I've always wanted to try this on a Class-2 vp machine but have never had the opportunity yet. If you are dealt a flush, discard all five cards and see if you re-draw another flush. I've heard that you do. Can't confirm. Might just be an old rumor I heard once.

In the beginning of your post above, you mentioned that if it is bingo-based (Class-2) then there is no difference between them and slots. That's not true.

I've played a little video poker at Resorts World casino in New York City. The machine was jacks-or-better paying 9 for 1 for a full house and 6 for 1 for a flush. After each deal, what I held had no effect on what I was paid. For example, whenever I was dealt a high pair and didn't hold it, I would always get a hand paying at least 1 for 1 after the draw.

Also, here's a previous Wizard of Vegas thread about video poker on Oklahoma Indian casinos: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/2924-oklahoma-indian-casinos/#post29708.

This kind of thing is what has me puzzled.

First, I cannot remember the paytables, but let’s assume that they are relatively normal DDB 9/6 or something, maybe even 8/5, like I said I cannot remember. The nagging questions that I cannot resolve with any certainty at all are- 1) are these machines running a random shuffle? And because my intuition and experience tells me, “no”, 2) What ARE they doing? And more importantly, 3) How are they doing it?

I cannot reconcile how a VP machine that is NOT dealing a random shuffle would work because JP’s or really any payback is largely determined by the player picking cards to hold on the draw. I just can’t wrap my head around that so that leads me back to a more broad question, is it possible or can, or even more important, will IGT send out machines that are either pre-programmed independent if the paytables or machines that may be set with a payback (sorry if my precision of terminology or lack of complete knowledge of “return” actually works, as I may have mentioned, I know enough to be dangerous) that is determined by the end-customer, in this case Indian casinos- who have their own rules?

That’s why I came here. I know of no place online or elsewhere that has a larger group of more knowledgeable casino players, some experts and maybe a few AP’s sprinkled in. And I’ve loosely followed Michael Shackleford and Bob Dancer since I can remember. I learned VP strategy first from a book or books, then I’m nearly positive that I purchased WinPoker on floppy disc. If this isn’t correct and it wasn’t ever sold that way, I did buy it a very long time ago and played it a TON to sharpen my game. I haven’t in years, I’ve probably gotten sloppy and probably should buy it or similar and practice again.

Here’s a sidebar- what is the best VP training software available today? Ideally it would include my favorite VP variant, Multi-Strike.

We went to Vegas a year ago and I found another one I really like and I cannot for the life of me remember what it is but I sure know where it was located. Exactly. Funny how that works, I cannot remember what day it is sometimes but I can tell you a year later precisely where that machine was. I only found one on my trip, on the last night. I think that it was dream card, but cannot remember. It had something to do with if an ace comes on the deal, I think you get multiple shots at a draw and if memory serves, more aces dealt results in more shots at filling up. I played for a long time, got lucky and won a lot but wanted to play until I was dealt 4 aces just for the fun of it. Probably would have gotten very expensive. Don’t remember the chances but I have played millions of hands and don’t get dealt 4 aces every day :) so it wasn’t happening but is is supposed to be fun.

You can play Multi-Strike on Video Poker for Winners. It's excellent software.

While I am not familiar with Class II VP, as I've never seen it, I could imagine where they have a pool of "outcomes" for which one is drawn when you hit the "draw" button. That pool may set the probabilities to something that is very different from a random shuffle. ie: They could easily set the Jackpot Amount.. let's say $1000 for a quarter machine, to hit once every 60,000 hands instead of once every 40,000 as you would have with a random shuffle.

Once the result is known, the machine creates a hand that will give that result.

full disclosure here: I know nothing of how Class II works... I'm just sharing a scenario that could give the casino the result they want.

If it is a class II machine then it isn't completely random. The easiest check to see if it is a class II machine is to throw away a winning hand. If it's class II that hand will reappear when you hit draw. Strategy doesn't matter on a class II machine at all. It works like a slot machine from the standpoint of when you hit the draw button the machine determines then if you win or lose. It doesn't matter what cards you hold or discard. Also if it is a class II there should be a "bingo card" somewhere on the front of the machine that will record a pattern every time you hit the spin button.

What happens on a Class II VP machine if you're playing DDB, get dealt AAA34, hold AAA3 (incorrectly), and you were supposed to win 800 credits? Does it discard the '3', replace it with a non-kicker, and give you another ace? Or do you just end up with some weird hand like three of a kind then win a 'mystery award' for 785?

Quote: RS

What happens on a Class II VP machine if you're playing DDB, get dealt AAA34, hold AAA3 (incorrectly), and you were supposed to win 800 credits? Does it discard the '3', replace it with a non-kicker, and give you another ace? Or do you just end up with some weird hand like three of a kind then win a 'mystery award' for 785?

Where is this DDB game paying 800 on AAA34? I'll pay good money for that info!

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Where is this DDB game paying 800 on AAA34? I'll pay good money for that info!

Re-read.

Quote: RS

Re-read.

I did. Would be an interesting scenario.

When I played at Muckleshoot in WA state a few years ago:

The video poker had a random card that would pop up after your hand was done, on the top right corner. If that card would make a hand out of your 5 dealt ones it would pay you accordingly.

Quote: RS

What happens on a Class II VP machine if you're playing DDB, get dealt AAA34, hold AAA3 (incorrectly), and you were supposed to win 800 credits? Does it discard the '3', replace it with a non-kicker, and give you another ace? Or do you just end up with some weird hand like three of a kind then win a 'mystery award' for 785?

I wrote the algorithm used by one of the large manufacturers that was used in the New York Lottery style video poker games. The ones I did would just use the mystery award to make up the difference if a proper card outcome would not match the selected pay.