GN AC vs. Darkoz

Quote: MDawg

There's a ton of imprecision in this thread as to what is "illegal" as well as what is the law. It is not a violation of law "illegal" for a casino to direct people against using their player cards according to internal rules. As well, the common law trespassing laws aren't different from the way the trial judge interpreted them against the defendant mentioned otherwise they would become meaningless. As far as trumpeting a section of law that states that trespassing laws may not be enforced against law abiding casino goers, that refers not just to the present state of the casino goer, but to prior behavior, meaning that if someone is ejected for cause, the trespass ejectment stands as a bar to future entry. Even if you don't know or understand the law, a little common sense is all that is needed here!

The CURRENT law is that if ejected for CAUSE, you're out of there! No affirmative defense.
link to original post

MDawg is completely out of his element obviously since he chooses to state things about the law that are false.

As he says you can be evicted for cause and then affirmative defense goes out the window.

What is incredulous is that an attorney would not understand what cause is.

It's clearly defined what "cause" is by the NJ legislature.

It's also in the Uston AND the Morse decision.



Furthermore who are you going to believe. A guy on an internet forum who doesn't read or understand the relevant case law OR the case law itself!






MDawg, I have supplied the relevant case law.

I expect you to do the same. What attorney argues without any evidence, SMH!

A DarkOz legal argument is equivalent to misreading and then jumping up and down until the (mis)point is driven into the ground. Loves to quote old law that hasn't been the least Shepardized, as well.

Quote: MDawg

A DarkOz legal argument is equivalent to misreading and then jumping up and down until the (mis)point is driven into the ground. Loves to quote old law that hasn't been the least Shepardized, as well.
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Does anyone here actually believe that MDawg is now claiming Uston V. Resorts is "old law"??? Implying it's no longer relevant?

I'm sorry. MDawg you best be quiet before making more silly statements.

Has anyone heard that Uston V. Resorts International is now no longer valid?

This can't get more ridiculous.

Taking the time, to respond minutely to most of what DarkOz has to say on this subject, is a...waste of time. Better to just explain what's going on in ways that the Knowing, get. What I wrote in my first post of today, stands.

Once the D O gets going, there's no stopping his torrential flow of (related) illogic.

Quote: MDawg

Taking the time, to respond minutely to most of what DarkOz has to say on this subject, is a...waste of time. Better to just explain what's going on in ways that the Knowing, get. What I wrote in my first post of today, stands.
link to original post

MDawg just gave the answer of a coward.

The "I didn't fight you because it's a waste of time" argument.

MDawg, everyone here sees you for what you are.

Unable to document even the slightest paperwork in your favor but not big enough to admit you are wrong.

Again, I have supplied the documents. As any GOOD attorney would do, you should be supplying the documents that supports your own position.

That you now admit you can't or won't says everything.

Quote: MDawg

Once the D O gets going, there's no stopping his torrential flow of (related) illogic.
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All you have to do is use Google to find relevant case law that refutes what I say.

You can't so are hiding behind ridiculous statements about me presenting evidence.

Illogical? What's more illogical than refusing to present evidence, asking Everyone to ignore the evidence presented and claiming it's not worth your time to do any research to present your own evidence?

Best WOV joke.

Name a guy who goes out of his way to provide evidence he gets fancy comps but refuses to go out of his way to provide relevant case law.

And he claims to be an attorney.

Diva fight.

No matter who loses, everyone is a winner!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote: billryan

Diva fight.

No matter who loses, everyone is a winner!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Look if MDawg can provide relevant case law from New Jersey, even just a link to back up his claim, then fine.

There is nothing more annoying than someone who claims to be an expert, gives what he claims is expert advice...

And can't even find one relevant document to back it up

"Just believe me, I know what I am talking about!"

I have spent quite a considerable amount of time documenting my points in this thread. To then challenge that without even a shred of documentation is basically the height of BS!

I have several questions, but all will wait, save one, until the final chapter is written and digested. Prior to your being charged and prior to hiring your lawyer, how much trespassing law did you know and were you familiar with the case law and the citations you have provided here or did you become educated after reading the briefs from your attorney? I guess I should also ask, did your attorney, prior to the trial, prepare and file any briefs with the court?

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

I have several questions, but all will wait, save one, until the final chapter is written and digested. Prior to your being charged and prior to hiring your lawyer, how much trespassing law did you know and were you familiar with the case law and the citations you have provided here or did you become educated after reading the briefs from your attorney? I guess I should also ask, did your attorney, prior to the trial, prepare and file any briefs with the court?

tuttigym
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I was certainly familiar with Uston V. Resorts. It's a famous card counting case. Most Advantage Players are aware of it.

As a result I was aware of the major difference between trespassing in Jersey versus the rest of the country.

I also was embroiled in a separate legal battle in New York where I was the plaintiff. So I did quite a bit of research into the law prior to my situation.

As this was technically a standard trespassing case, I am unaware of any briefs needed for the court however if there were any filed I may not have been made aware.

As soon as I retained my attorney, he filed with the court as my representation.

He was present every day I was required in court and met with the DA behind closed doors for the most part.

Quote: darkoz

Best WOV joke.

Name a guy who goes out of his way to provide evidence he gets fancy comps but refuses to go out of his way to provide relevant case law.

And he claims to be an attorney.
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I got suspended for a perceived "insult" to Mr.MDawg.by Mr. W. After reading MDawg's posts on this thread about the way the law "works," I stand by my comments. Case law rules until it is overturned and affirmed by a higher court. DO has provided ample proof to my satisfaction that the case against DO should be dismissed with prejudice. I am pretty sure Mr.MDawg knows what that means.

tuttigym

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

I have several questions, but all will wait, save one, until the final chapter is written and digested. Prior to your being charged and prior to hiring your lawyer, how much trespassing law did you know and were you familiar with the case law and the citations you have provided here or did you become educated after reading the briefs from your attorney? I guess I should also ask, did your attorney, prior to the trial, prepare and file any briefs with the court?

tuttigym
link to original post

I was certainly familiar with Uston V. Resorts. It's a famous card counting case. Most Advantage Players are aware of it.

As a result I was aware of the major difference between trespassing in Jersey versus the rest of the country.

I also was embroiled in a separate legal battle in New York where I was the plaintiff. So I did quite a bit of research into the law prior to my situation.

As this was technically a standard trespassing case, I am unaware of any briefs needed for the court however if there were any filed I may not have been made aware.

As soon as I retained my attorney, he filed with the court as my representation.

He was present every day I was required in court and met with the DA behind closed doors for the most part.
link to original post

So, for me, to be clear, the case law and code citations you posted here, you were familiar with and did you have them with you in court alongside your attorney?

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: darkoz

Quote: tuttigym

I have several questions, but all will wait, save one, until the final chapter is written and digested. Prior to your being charged and prior to hiring your lawyer, how much trespassing law did you know and were you familiar with the case law and the citations you have provided here or did you become educated after reading the briefs from your attorney? I guess I should also ask, did your attorney, prior to the trial, prepare and file any briefs with the court?

tuttigym
link to original post

I was certainly familiar with Uston V. Resorts. It's a famous card counting case. Most Advantage Players are aware of it.

As a result I was aware of the major difference between trespassing in Jersey versus the rest of the country.

I also was embroiled in a separate legal battle in New York where I was the plaintiff. So I did quite a bit of research into the law prior to my situation.

As this was technically a standard trespassing case, I am unaware of any briefs needed for the court however if there were any filed I may not have been made aware.

As soon as I retained my attorney, he filed with the court as my representation.

He was present every day I was required in court and met with the DA behind closed doors for the most part.
link to original post

So, for me, to be clear, the case law and code citations you posted here, you were familiar with and did you have them with you in court alongside your attorney?

tuttigym
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I was familiar with the citations and had presented them to my attorney. I had copies with me as well as the entire golden Nugget dossier, with relevant parts circled.

To go further would be discussing the next part.

Quote: darkoz

I was familiar with the citations and had presented them to my attorney. I had copies with me as well as the entire golden Nugget dossier, with relevant parts circled.

To go further would be discussing the next part.

I understand. Thank you and very good. I will hold my additional inquiries until the end.

tuttigym

Darkoz, I want to thank you for the last section, where you outline your philosophy. So, thank you.

Quote: darkoz

I was familiar with the citations and had presented them to my attorney. I had copies with me as well as the entire golden Nugget dossier, with relevant parts circled.

To go further would be discussing the next part.

Lawyer here. Your reliance on Uston is totally misplaced because it was NOT a criminal trespass case. Uston was excluded from play, not arrested, and the issue before the Court was whether the exclusion comported with the rules of the Casino Control Act, which is an administrative rule, not a criminal statue. The case had NOTHING to do with criminal trespass, so it holds no authority in a criminal case. In fact the Court in Uston said quite plainly, "...we do not decide whether such an exclusion would be lawful".

Quote: UP84

Quote: darkoz

I was familiar with the citations and had presented them to my attorney. I had copies with me as well as the entire golden Nugget dossier, with relevant parts circled.

To go further would be discussing the next part.

Lawyer here. Your reliance on Uston is totally misplaced because it was NOT a criminal trespass case. Uston was excluded from play, not arrested, and the issue before the Court was whether the exclusion comported with the rules of the Casino Control Act, which is an administrative rule, not a criminal statue. The case had NOTHING to do with criminal trespass, so it holds no authority in a criminal case. In fact the Court in Uston said quite plainly, "...we do not decide whether such an exclusion would be lawful".
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Mr.UP84: The way I read the case law presented and the actual account, Uston was evicted from the premises. Had he refused to leave the property, the casino, at that point, would have probably had him arrested. The eviction might have been prompted by his play, but he was not given any choice by the casino. Are you suggesting that Uston should have resisted casino security until he was arrested? What then? Oh, I bet, a criminal trespass case and more.

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Mr.UP84: The way I read the case law presented and the actual account, Uston was evicted from the premises. Had he refused to leave the property, the casino, at that point, would have probably had him arrested. The eviction might have been prompted by his play, but he was not given any choice by the casino. Are you suggesting that Uston should have resisted casino security until he was arrested? What then? Oh, I bet, a criminal trespass case and more.

tuttigym
link to original post

In the legal profession those assumptions are called "Hypotheticals", and carry absolutely no weight.

Quote: UP84

Quote: darkoz

I was familiar with the citations and had presented them to my attorney. I had copies with me as well as the entire golden Nugget dossier, with relevant parts circled.

To go further would be discussing the next part.

Lawyer here. Your reliance on Uston is totally misplaced because it was NOT a criminal trespass case. Uston was excluded from play, not arrested, and the issue before the Court was whether the exclusion comported with the rules of the Casino Control Act, which is an administrative rule, not a criminal statue. The case had NOTHING to do with criminal trespass, so it holds no authority in a criminal case. In fact the Court in Uston said quite plainly, "...we do not decide whether such an exclusion would be lawful".
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It is rather scary when not one but two attorneys either aren't processing the law as written or case law as written. Perhaps this is a further statement on the judicial system.


UP84, please read ONLY the underlined or circled areas of the State V. Morse decision which I post again below and reply. Thank you.

I am not an attorney but I understand what the meaning is of the decision in State V. Morse WHICH IS A CRIMINAL TRESPASS CASE!!!

In fact the Morse case QUOTED the Uston case as the precedent AND NAMED IT "the USTON RATIONALE coupled with relevant statutory implications dictate that the DEFENDANT was WRONGFULLY CONVICTED of DEFIANT TRESPASS"

"
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Quote: UP84

Quote: tuttigym

Mr.UP84: The way I read the case law presented and the actual account, Uston was evicted from the premises. Had he refused to leave the property, the casino, at that point, would have probably had him arrested. The eviction might have been prompted by his play, but he was not given any choice by the casino. Are you suggesting that Uston should have resisted casino security until he was arrested? What then? Oh, I bet, a criminal trespass case and more.

tuttigym
link to original post

In the legal profession those assumptions are called "Hypotheticals", and carry absolutely no weight.
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That example is not a "hypothetical." It is a logical assumption which could be proven in court by direct examination of casino security. Defendant: Mr. Security, if the defendant refused to leave the premises, what would be your course of action? Casino Security: We would call the proper authorities and have him removed or arrested.

tuttigym

Quote: Mosca

Darkoz, I want to thank you for the last section, where you outline your philosophy. So, thank you.
link to original post

You are very welcome.

I realized there was an opportune moment to discuss it.

Thanks.

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: UP84

Quote: tuttigym

Mr.UP84: The way I read the case law presented and the actual account, Uston was evicted from the premises. Had he refused to leave the property, the casino, at that point, would have probably had him arrested. The eviction might have been prompted by his play, but he was not given any choice by the casino. Are you suggesting that Uston should have resisted casino security until he was arrested? What then? Oh, I bet, a criminal trespass case and more.

tuttigym
link to original post

In the legal profession those assumptions are called "Hypotheticals", and carry absolutely no weight.
link to original post

That example is not a "hypothetical." It is a logical assumption which could be proven in court by direct examination of casino security. Defendant: Mr. Security, if the defendant refused to leave the premises, what would be your course of action? Casino Security: We would call the proper authorities and have him removed or arrested.

tuttigym
link to original post

Tutti,

I got this, no worries.

Check out my reply just above yours!

I know you do. I read your reply, but somehow there must be some critical thinking absent. I also know the law is not necessarily logical, but the case law is self-explanatory.

tuttigym

Part of my point was that Someone like DarkOz could never use any affirmative defense because he is ejected for cause, his very presence violating casino rules right and left multi carding would be argued disrupts or endangers business functions. DarkOz's very presence in casinos is an outrage. He and his crew are the Menace - not in disguise, but stone - obvious casino comp abusers, with a flagrantly cranked - up act that he intends to push all the way to the limit . . . not to prove any final, sociological point, and not even as a conscious mockery: as mainly a matter of life - style, a sense of obligation and even duty.

Knowing just enough law to make yourself dangerous (to yourself) is what DarkO is about.

Tuttigym on the other hand knows NO law, not even enough to make himself dangerous. His arguments fall flat before they even commence.

Quote: MDawg

Part of my point was that Someone like DarkOz could never use any affirmative defense because he is ejected for cause, his very presence violating casino rules right and left multi carding would be argued disrupts or endangers business functions. DarkOz's very presence in casinos is an outrage. He and his crew are the Menace - not in disguise, but stone - obvious casino comp abusers, with a flagrantly cranked - up act that he intends to push all the way to the limit . . . not to prove any final, sociological point, and not even as a conscious mockery: as mainly a matter of life - style, a sense of obligation and even duty.

Knowing just enough law to make yourself dangerous (to yourself) is what DarkO is about.

Tuttigym on the other hand knows NO law, not even enough to make himself dangerous. His arguments fall flat before they even commence.
link to original post

I am certain that an opposing attorney would argue that my use of other players cards constitutes "endangering business functions"

I have seen a plethora of attorneys who don't understand law very well.

Where their argument would fail is the definition of endangering business functions has been established as having to do with disruptive service, as in preventing customers from patronizing the casino or creating a disruptive scene like drunk and disorderly.

Nothing about violation of casino rules is disruptive or endangers business functions.

I should also point out that this same argument was used in Uston. Resorts International accused Uston of violating casino rules (against card counting) and that such activity disrupted business functions.

They also failed!

Also it should be noted that EVEN WITH A VIOLENT ACT at issue, the affirmative defense holds as seen in State V. Morse. As seen below it was a VIOLENT ACT an he still prevailed.

I am still waiting for MDawg to provide one scintilla of evidence arguing his point yet he has failed on all fronts.

I'm not a lawyer.

My suggestion is for Darkoz to move on to the conclusion of his story.

After reading the conclusion you lawyers can comment if the information leading up to the conclusion makes sense or if he'll need to rewrite his screenplay.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm not a lawyer.

My suggestion is for Darkoz to move on to the conclusion of his story.

After reading the conclusion you lawyers can comment if the information leading up to the conclusion makes sense or if he'll need to rewrite his screenplay.
link to original post

Unfortunately MDawg has shown a lack of understanding the laws of at least New Jersey.

It's understandable since he claims to be an attorney licenced only in California (and he seems to have a lack of work there as evidenced by his staying for months in Las Vegas).

He also has shown a lack of ability to provide any evidence for the basis of his claims even though I continue to do so and make him look ridiculous.

So his opinion isn't worth much in this matter

Why isn't MDawg putting up $100,000 Challenge to prove he is correct against Mr.DarkOz and the "trespassing" issues placed here on the forum? I feel very confident that the comment of DO about Mr.MDawg's lack of work is also spot on.

Your feet are being held to the fire, Mr.MDawg, put up your legal, with case law, rebuttal or .........

Your assessment of my legal knowledge parallels the batting averages of all the National League's starting pitchers combined.

tuttigym

Part 19:

The day scheduled for the trial finally arrived, nine months (April of 2019) after the charge of trespassing in June of 2018

I arrived on time for the 9:30 AM session. I sat and awaited my attorney who wasn't yet present however I soon received a text from him that he was going to be a few hours delayed due to an emergency bail hearing in another court. He had made the municipal court for my trial aware of the situation and he instructed me to alert the court clerk that I was present.

Inside the actual courtroom the court clerk sat off to the right side of the room (the left of the judge) and I notified him of my presence. He checked the court docket and made a note.

I then decided to wait in the outside vestibule as my case would not be called without my attorney and I was barred from using my cellphone in the Courtroom.

Soon the security guard showed up who I recognized as the male who had held my arm in a lock while escorting me to the backroom. I followed him back inside the court where I observed he too registered his presence with the court clerk.

As he went back into the vestibule I too followed him out.

And he just stood in a corner of the outside waiting room with a very blank poker face staring forward. He remained standing the whole time while I lazily had a seat. Stoic or perhaps bored and asking himself why this wasn't in his job description. Of course, I am only surmising what was actually going through his head. He could have been counting sheep for all I really knew.

The reality of the trial was feeling more and more palpable. It's weird but as you spend months going over and over in your head what you will testify, the distance between you and the court date insulates you from any real tension. You can even rewind your pitiful answers for a do-over....when it's still running through your head. There was a different feeling now that it was about to happen.

I figured the other security guard who needed to testify was running late like my attorney which I counted as a small blessing. I wouldn't want them to make some claim that my attorney didn't show even though I understood intrinsically that he has more leeway to make a late appearance than myself.

If you recall, the testimony of the security guard running late was the key to the Golden Nugget proving their case. Without his testimony they had nothing.

The security guard who was present could only testify that in June of 2018, he found me using other people's players cards and escorted me to the backroom. And that I was eventually charged only for trespassing as they had warned me not to return from an earlier encounter with me.

I denied that I was instructed not to return at that earlier encounter which was six months earlier when I was surrounded for winning a jackpot. They had not given me any written documents (aside from my W2-G) and I had left. Without a written signed document that I understood I was trespassed from the property, they had to have the testimony from that OTHER security guard that he had verbally informed me I could not return.

If you recall, the Golden Nugget had sent over a twenty page dossier on me with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that stated I was trespassed until after they were questioned in court about it a few weeks later and miraculously, they suddenly and retroactively discovered a "misplaced" trespass signed by said security guard that he verbally informed me not to return.

It all seemed very suspicious to me that they kept such an extensive dossier on me and it's missing only the one document needed to prove their case and then suddenly it pops up later.

My attorney however said documents often are misplaced and submitted to the Court later. I couldn't bring up my suspicion that the document was forged. He would simply have to grill the security guard. My attorney ensured me however that if I was correct and it was a forged document, the security guard would never show up and testify in court, risking his casino security license and a perjury charge to boot.

My attorney was adamant on that fact but I wasn't so certain!

So there I was awaiting both my attorney to show and the other security guard.

About an hour later, circa ten thirty AM, I received a text from my attorney he was finished at the other court and should be arriving in an hour. Great, twiddling my thumbs, replaying all the possibilities that might come up in the impending trial, another hour of nervousness. I just wanted to get the show on the road, so to speak.

Of course, if this other security guard arrived even later than my attorney, it would be more of the same pained waiting unless we could use his tardiness against him. If only I could ascertain just how late he was going to be.

And then suddenly an epiphany! I suppose the tardiness of my own attorney had me thinking of lateness period. But what if my attorney was correct and my suspicion that the eviction evidence was a forgery was true and this security guard who's testimony was so vital would not risk perjury or losing his license? What if he wasn't late? What if he simply wasn't testifying?

I began glaring at the guard who was present but his poker face told me nothing. He wasn't even paying me any mind. You are never supposed to ask or approach someone on the opposite side of a trial. You risk giving up vital information to your opponent and possibly having them complain to the court that they felt you were trying to influence their testimony.

But if you have read through this entire thread you already know I am not one for rules if I feel it can have a calculated advantage.

So after formulating an innocent enough question, I approached the guard.

He stood, not even acknowledging me, still staring ahead with no emotional visage. I meekly stated, "sorry for the delay but my attorney texted me he will be here soon."

That's all I said and he didn't verbally reply, perhaps out of caution but he acknowledged me with a vertical nod of the head, the closest to a polite thank you I would receive, apparently.

After a slight pause, and as if in some concerns for the time, I asked, "Is Officer Xxx going to be arriving soon so we can get this trial going?"

Again the silence, but again to not be rude, he gave a nod of his head, this time in the negative.

"Oh," I acted suddenly shocked (academy award time on my part), "is it just going to be you who testifies today?"

For the third time he gave the silent head nod... and this time it was an affirmative yes. He was the only one testifying.

I am certain I sat back down with a sad face although maybe I wasn't hiding it like I believe. Inside I was elated. This security guard apparently had no clue that his testimony alone was worthless. No one on either side was contesting that I was present in the casino in June of 2018 multicarding however, my use of other people player's cards didn't prove I was trespassing and was not even vital to their case.

Without this other security guard showing up to testify to his verbally trespassing me, they had nothing. And I now knew something the security guard present didn't. I knew my odds of winning had just risen into the stratosphere.

And you see why even a head nod can be disastrous to reply to your opponent.

Now I just hoped this guard didn't find out! As long as he wasn't seen by the District Attorney I figured I was good but dash it all, it seemed like not five minutes later when he was called into her office.

I remember thinking what terrible luck at that time, but upon hindsight, I am sure my attorney would have notified the DA just as he appraised me, that his presence was imminent. She probably deemed it time to run through the facts of the case with her testifying witness now that my attorney was in transit from the other court.

I remained seated outside her office with it's closed door for no longer than a few minutes when it seemed to swing open, almost thrown open, and this testifying security guard whizzed out already on his cellphone gesticulating his arms dramatically and walking right through the vestibule into the exiting staircase.

Now this stairwell has glass windows so I rushed over to them and could see the guard had stopped in the middle of the stairwell landing. So, apparently he wasn't leaving but required a quiet place to speak and be heard.

And, yes, I spied on him. Or as a casino employee would say, I surveiled. A nice turn, don't you think? The advantage player getting to perform surveillance on the casino security guard?

I don't lip read and I couldn't hear what he spoke but from his mannerisms, anxious and a bit petulant, coupled with my knowledge of what testimony was important, it wasn't difficult to glean that he had just been alerted by the District Attorney that unless they got that other security guard down to the court ASAP for trial, this case was going to be lost and he was imparting this time sensitive information to his superiors with the urgency of a plaintiff and casino employee who didn't want to be blamed for the impending defeat.

When the guard hung up his cell and began traipsing up the stairs I returned to my seat and watched him closely when he returned. He seemed totally unaware that he had just been observed by my personal eye in the sky. Oh, what delicious irony. The worm turns!

But what if the Golden Nugget was able to send that other guard? Perhaps they were just idiots who's knowledge of the law was so lacking they hadn't even informed the guard he would need to testify and they gave him quick marching orders to rush down to the court house? It wasn't fifteen minutes by car from the Golden Nugget.

Perhaps I wasn't out of the thick yet. My astronomical odds in my favor had dropped to just a more respectful slight advantage.

Perhaps!

When my attorney finally arrived I updated him on all my Intel. He gave me a knowing wink, almost an "I told you so" and then Said we would see how this plays out inside the District Attorneys office.

Soon, it was my Attorney and the present security guard returning to the DA behind closed doors I was not privy to. And this time it seemed longer. Perhaps twice as long and when the door finally opened it once again was the security guard who exited.

But he didn't exit "hot" like before, all in a huff. He was very lackadaisical and went straight to the stairwell. Once again, I spied through the windows and this time I saw him exit the building!

His presence was not necessary, and he was now returning to his job as a lowly security guard in a casino. His time as star witness a dud!

A moment later my attorney approached me right at the stairwell windows. "They couldn't get the other security guard to testify. The DA has dismissed the charges."

And he shook my hand. "Wait, do I owe you for going to trial?". As part of the legal agreement with him I had to pay additional trial fees if it went to trial and since he literally showed up for trial I wasn't certain how that worked.

"It ended up dismissed with no trial so, no, you are off the hook."

It was totally fair and again, if you are in need of legal defense in Atlantic City, I recommend John Tumelty. You can easily Google him.

He instructed me on filing with the cashier in the court for some documents that would expunge from the record even evidence I had ever been charged. He warned it had to be done that day or there were other consequences. It was either that I had to pay for a free service or I couldn't get the documents at all. Sorry I can't remember. I had a lot of thoughts whizzing through my brain at that moment.

I followed his direction and in about three weeks received a letter from the state of New Jersey that my record was expunged and even if it was uncovered by law enforcement it could not be admitted into future trial.

And I suppose that ending is a bit anti-climactic! In some ways I was disappointed I never had my say in court. You can't envision the court proceedings every which way from Sunday and then discover that the one way you didn't envision, the total dismissal of the trial, doesn't leave you feeling incomplete or unsatiated. My voice wasn't heard in court. I didn't get that satisfaction of successfully defending myself and proving to the judge I was in the right.

Nonetheless I saved the additional costs associated with trial and who knows if I would have lost and faced an expensive appeal process.

If and when I write the screenplay, I probably will be required to write in the dramatic court drama, where I tell the judge she can't handle the truth and my attorney gets the security guard weeping and begging for mercy at the perjury charge he faces, but that's the fictional Hollywood ending.

In reality, it ended with a whimper and not a bang...of a gavel!

Not to be continued!

Great story but because of the ending, I'm sorry, but there's no sale.

If the casino had been caught with perjury and you received a judgment award you might have had something.

I'm glad it worked out for you, though.

Quote: darkoz

...I am not one for rules if I feel it can have a calculated advantage.
link to original post

This explains everything.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Great story but because of the ending, I'm sorry, but there's no sale.

If the casino had been caught with perjury and you received a judgment award you might have had something.

I'm glad it worked out for you, though.
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I'm not certain what you mean by no sale but it sounds like you didn't care for how events ended. The entire thread was just sharing a trip report basically, an advantage Player's tale of an adventure in his kind of lifestyle.

Told in hopefully a compelling enough manner that it kept your interest until the end. Which it did. I would say objective achieved.

This isn't my first AP adventures discussion. I have shared a burglary and a few other aspects of my adventures or travails as an AP through the years.

If you were hoping for a different ending I understand that but this is the way it happened. A young niece of mine got really upset they didn't save the Titanic in James Cameron's epic. I had pretty much the same conversation. That's the way it happened!

Darkoz, thank you for telling your story.

Great story, DO! Thanks for taking us along for the ride.

Although, I was kinda hoping there would be a sequel: DarkOz vs. GN AC II: A Civil Matter!

Quote: darkoz

I'm not certain what you mean by no sale but it sounds like you didn't care for how events ended.

It sounds like he was just about to option your script! :)

Quote: darkoz

I'm not certain what you mean by no sale but it sounds like you didn't care for how events ended. The entire thread was just sharing a trip report basically, an advantage Player's tale of an adventure in his kind of lifestyle.
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19 installments dispensed over roughly four months.

And yeah, I would have liked a few more explosions, and maybe an escape with large duffel bags of cash on a speedboat while being pursued by lawyers on jetskis and security in paragliders. Maybe some wacky antics with a trained lemur... can we work that in? ;)

I understand that the whole "reporting what happened" thing is in conflict with creative license.

I often found myself impatiently eager for the next episode.

Fantastic.

I worked with documents my whole career. When it came up in the story, I could have guaranteed you right there, that document was forged. It was a calculated power play that you would settle, capitulate, whatever term you want. If you capitulate, they win. If you don’t, they are no worse off than before. They did not expect your confident brinksmanship, and they had to blink.

Excellent story, it held me throughout.

New ending...DO stuffs a bunch of player cards in the tailpipe of the security guards car and it explodes in a huge fireball while DO walks away in slow motion and says "Advantage DO MO FOs"

Quote: Joeman

Great story, DO! Thanks for taking us along for the ride.

Although, I was kinda hoping there would be a sequel: DarkOz vs. GN AC II: A Civil Matter!

Quote: darkoz

I'm not certain what you mean by no sale but it sounds like you didn't care for how events ended.

It sounds like he was just about to option your script! :)
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love the story Darkoz.

And yeah, where's DarkOz vs. GN AC II: A Civil Matter?

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: Joeman

Great story, DO! Thanks for taking us along for the ride.

Although, I was kinda hoping there would be a sequel: DarkOz vs. GN AC II: A Civil Matter!

Quote: darkoz

I'm not certain what you mean by no sale but it sounds like you didn't care for how events ended.

It sounds like he was just about to option your script! :)
link to original post

love the story Darkoz.

And yeah, where's DarkOz vs. GN AC II: A Civil Matter?
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Suing for tort I looked into as the Golden Nugget had held me for over an hour without even investigating if a crime had been committed. They didn't call any of the cardholders until after I was released as they just assumed I had stolen the offers.

My attorney in NY was unable to handle cases in New Jersey and Jersey attorneys weren't interested. They felt there wasn't enough to seek in damages and the use other people's players cards I think spooked them

A few months after having my charges dismissed I saw how difficult it is to make a jury see that if something is legal you have every right not to be detained with your rights violated when I had my backrooming case in NY for Resorts World. Even with security guards emptying my pockets and going through my belongings against my will and them using coercion, the jury felt the issue needed to be investigated and these guards were right.

Non-gambling juries are difficult to explain how players cards work. They just see someone using a card that's not in their name. And I really can't explain how I get the offers because the last thing I want is to explain it to the casino in a court of law.

And even if you get a gambling jury you could find the sentiment is well I only get one card and one set of offers, what makes this guy so special. You can see just from this forum how gamblers are divided.

So I didn't pursue that.

As for pursuing the officials who released APB/BOLO's on me, they had immunities that were going to be insurmountable.

That leaves suing Golden Nugget and Resorts International in Chancery court to force an injunction that my evictions were illegal under NJ law as they were WITHOUT CAUSE.

To that effect I had an attorney ready to represent me in that endeavor. I just needed to pull the trigger. My family felt it was a waste as if I got back into Resorts and Golden Nugget they would surveil me like a hawk and I wouldn't get any work done.

And while I contemplated, Covid hit and the courts closed and now are limited in cases.

I can still pursue that course but it's back burner.

Trust me, if I ever move forward, you guys will know.

darkoz,

Let me express my gratitude for your taking the time and effort to relate this long, involved tale for our amusement and, perhaps, edification. As others have stated, I found myself anxiously awaiting each installment.

As an AP myself, I have also experienced casinos acting illegally against me out of, I don't know, spite I guess.

The only problem with the ending is that the GN suffered no consequences for their forgery against you. I could wish for a different ending, but I fully understand your reluctance to sue if doing so would require that you reveal your trade secrets to the casino. Whatever you could recover from the GN would never compensate you for your loss of future revenue.

Dog Hand

Great story! Had me clicking and refreshing for updates. The serial format worked great for this one.

Glad to hear things went in your favor,but you endured a lot of stress and duress.glad the charges were dropped.

Quote: avianrandy

Glad to hear things went in your favor,but you endured a lot of stress and duress.glad the charges were dropped.
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I once said something similar to my daughter, that I was undergoing such stress due to the battles with the casinos.

Her reply was I now had such wonderful tales to tell. She actually said no one wants to hear every day "I won this amount, next day I won that amount". Sure it's everyone's dream but it doesn't make good drama.

Everytime I check in on some other adventure threads my daughter's words come to mind.

Perhaps that's why I write about the AP nightmares more than the good times. I have gone on two week family vacations to Disney but while exciting as a whole, it's not compelling for discussion.

My point being, don't think this AP is nothing but troubles and not worth the headaches. I honestly have more fun earning a living in my forties and fifties than I did in my twenties and thirties (and that's when I pursued my Hollywood dreams and worked my way up to big films like KillBill and Pirates of the Caribbean).

I wouldn't trade what I do for anything (except that original dream of being a Hollywood director and now I am not so sure about that. They probably have more stress than I do).

So I will keep writing about the nightmares while downplaying the good times.

Yesterday, I turned $300 freeplay into $9,000 (no joke, I hit a $6,000 jackpot on a $25 pull) and that's my third time in as many months but while exciting, well, lol, kinda boring if I reported t on the regular.

Quote: darkoz

As for pursuing the officials who released APB/BOLO's on me, they had immunities that were going to be insurmountable.

That leaves suing Golden Nugget and Resorts International in Chancery court to force an injunction that my evictions were illegal under NJ law as they were WITHOUT CAUSE.

To that effect I had an attorney ready to represent me in that endeavor. I just needed to pull the trigger. My family felt it was a waste as if I got back into Resorts and Golden Nugget they would surveil me like a hawk and I wouldn't get any work done.

And while I contemplated, Covid hit and the courts closed and now are limited in cases.

I can still pursue that course but it's back burner.

Trust me, if I ever move forward, you guys will know.
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The legal process is very slow as you have shown, i.e., nine months to complete your case. If it is not to invasive, could you tell us how much this experience cost? I know that most good attorneys require an up front contingency fee plus billing for the hours spent and expenses to the tune of from $150-$500/hr.

After the dismissal was rendered, did your attorney request attorney's fees from the GN through the court? If not, why not?

Rather than having your attorney file an action against the GN, would you ever consider doing it yourself pro se?

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: darkoz

As for pursuing the officials who released APB/BOLO's on me, they had immunities that were going to be insurmountable.

That leaves suing Golden Nugget and Resorts International in Chancery court to force an injunction that my evictions were illegal under NJ law as they were WITHOUT CAUSE.

To that effect I had an attorney ready to represent me in that endeavor. I just needed to pull the trigger. My family felt it was a waste as if I got back into Resorts and Golden Nugget they would surveil me like a hawk and I wouldn't get any work done.

And while I contemplated, Covid hit and the courts closed and now are limited in cases.

I can still pursue that course but it's back burner.

Trust me, if I ever move forward, you guys will know.
link to original post

The legal process is very slow as you have shown, i.e., nine months to complete your case. If it is not to invasive, could you tell us how much this experience cost? I know that most good attorneys require an up front contingency fee plus billing for the hours spent and expenses to the tune of from $150-$500/hr.

After the dismissal was rendered, did your attorney request attorney's fees from the GN through the court? If not, why not?

Rather than having your attorney file an action against the GN, would you ever consider doing it yourself pro se?

tuttigym
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The cost for me was a flat $2000 for the attorney. There was to be an additional $1000 if it went to trial which it didn't.

So that's it. $2000 for the Attorney. And hotels (I always slept over the night before court appearance since I didn't want to be late traveling from New York) but I don't really count that. I always did some work when out there.

Keep in mind the trespassing cases are so common and so rote that attorneys just charge the flat fee. There isn't much research to be done like in a murder trial or drug trafficking trial.

Trespassing charges. Does the complainant have written proof you were told not to enter(assuming open to the public), did you understand that, did you enter, etc).

Doesn't take much to deal with the DA and present the evidence in court and make arguments to the judge.

No attorneys fees were requested of the GN. He got paid by me so such a request would be at my disposal. He never mentioned it to me. And I didn't even think about it. Perhaps at that level (municipal court) it's not common. I don't know.

I would never represent myself in court. From my experience, lawyers real purpose is to navigate the tricky world of court proceedings.

You could easily have the winning argument and lose because you don't file proper paperwork or don't mention something at proper time so the exonerating evidence becomes inadmissible.

I would never want to traverse those tricky waters on my own.

Thanks for the candor. It is my understanding that even though attorney's fees have been paid by a party, it is not uncommon for the winning party to request of the court attorney's fees. The court does not have to grant such, but as a famous Jewish comic said: "It coudn't hurt." I believe you did get a bargain with the costs you incurred. One other thing, you did mention that retaliatory action might be possible. I know with covid there has been disruptions in the court systems, but is there a statute of limitations you face for such an action?

For what it is worth, I personally would file an action for malicious prosecution, fraud, and some form of perjury action against the GN. I would do it pro se. Based on the law and all the other short comings presented by GN as well as their presentation of their "documentations," discovery would be revealing and provide a winning position. It would never go to trial, and they would settle. My opinion, just sayin.'

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Thanks for the candor. It is my understanding that even though attorney's fees have been paid by a party, it is not uncommon for the winning party to request of the court attorney's fees. The court does not have to grant such, but as a famous Jewish comic said: "It coudn't hurt." I believe you did get a bargain with the costs you incurred. One other thing, you did mention that retaliatory action might be possible. I know with covid there has been disruptions in the court systems, but is there a statute of limitations you face for such an action?

For what it is worth, I personally would file an action for malicious prosecution, fraud, and some form of perjury action against the GN. I would do it pro se. Based on the law and all the other short comings presented by GN as well as their presentation of their "documentations," discovery would be revealing and provide a winning position. It would never go to trial, and they would settle. My opinion, just sayin.'

tuttigym
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It's a one or two years statute of limitations in NJ for that type of action. As this took place in 2018, it's long past limitations.

Even pro se, the costs of a trial are ridiculous when you factor in time spent etc.

You assume the casino would be cooperative with discovery. If they did forge the eviction notice, why become honest during an action.

Casinos have even been known to claim they lost surveillance footage when it's revealing of some misdeed

Trust me, the big win if any isn't worth the time. Suddenly it becomes more like gambling and as an AP, I prefer not gambling. I prefer something that's a sure thing.

I totally understand your position. You know that I am not a confrontational person, but I have challenged the status quo. The courts can be "helpful" at times when they have been deceived or insulted, and you are correct about the time involved and some costs yes. But life goes on and you did prevail, so congratulations.

tuttigym

Mgm now makes you jump through hoops if you just want to cash out promo $.

You have to cash at cage (not ticket machine) AND ask for a manager to cash the ticket.