Atlantic City 2017 Year in Review

Greetings!

I would like to take this opportunity to highlight my Atlantic City 2017 in Review article, which focuses mainly on the Live & Online Casino Win numbers for 2017 as compared to 2016 and 2015:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/atlantic-city-2017-in-review/

Fair warning, it's a long one, but if you use the doohickey on the bottom right of the page, you can select from four sections and jump to those if you like:

1.) Steadying the ship.

-This section just focuses on the numbers and points out that, as a city, Atlantic City enjoyed greater casino revenues than the year before for the second year in a row. It also highlights that 2016 over 2015 was the first such event in a decade for overall revenues, whereas last year was the first such event for Live Casino Win.

Everything is expressed with a few simple charts that I put together, so those basically tell the story.

2.) Can This Last?

-That section just looks at the AC market trends to determine whether or not the numbers are sustainable. The section also discusses the fact that two new casinos are set to open in the city next year as well as how individual casinos performed back when there were more operators. There's a specific focus on before & after the Taj Mahal and before and after the four casino closings in 2014.

I would say that section is hardly required reading, unless you're really interested in the recent history.

3.) Winners, Losers and the Chopping Block:

-This section discusses casinos that, in my opinion, either outperformed or underperformed. It also discusses which casinos might be at risk, "The chopping block," after the two new places open.

If you're going to read any part of the article, I suggest this one.

4.) Conclusion

-Does what it says on the box. If you read all of Section 3, might as well read the conclusion.

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Anyway, I hope some of you will enjoy this detailed look into the performance of Atlantic City and its individual casinos last year and what to expect in the years to come. If you would like to vote in the poll, multiple options can be selected.

I made the serious options the bottom four this time, just to switch it up a bit.

Thanks, Mrs and I are heading to Borgata for a 3 Day soon. We'll let you know what's going on (in mid February, anyhow).

I still look at AC and see no backbone. What is the draw, the hook, to get people there? They can say it is a "getaway" for people living in PA that cannot be gotten hitting a locals place at home. That is not a huge market. The city is still as isolated as it ever was. Really, they have to package the places as a "getaway" since it is a most-of-the-day thing for players to get there. Locals are broke, the city is still a slum, so it has to be for tourists.

20 years ago I had many a meeting in AC. Casinos were a draw as there was very little casino action outside there. The rest of the places did not stand out. Bally's did not even have clocks in the hotel rooms!

I see it as uphill, forever.

The only advantage Atlantic City has is it's already there.

The only thing that is going to save AC or make it a more attractive destination.... is sports betting and making it a 'destination'. They need to ramp up their convention location and make it an attractive place for businesses to hold meetings, etc. It needs to be marketed as a place to 'let go' and have fun. There are too many casinos in every state now... who the fu# needs to go to AC when they have what they need right in their backyards... gambling!

I remember my host in AC years ago (just before PA got gaming) said that no one wants to go to local casinos, they want to go to AC for the entertainment and beach. She said that AC would still do great. I told her that she was a great woman.... but soooooo naive.

AC currently has a tag line 'Do AC' . How frickin lame is that? Whatever marketing firm was hired (probably by Chris Christy and Co with kickbacks) should be thrown in the polluted AC ocean. I would tag it similar to Vegas but with a twist... 'What happens in AC, Never happened in AC'. Print it!

Quote: WatchMeWin

The only thing that is going to save AC or make it a more attractive destination.... is sports betting and making it a 'destination'. They need to ramp up their convention location and make it an attractive place for businesses to hold meetings, etc. It needs to be marketed as a place to 'let go' and have fun. There are too many casinos in every state now... who the fu# needs to go to AC when they have what they need right in their backyards... gambling!

I agree here except that sports betting will not make a difference. You can still find it online. Also, assuming the Supremes KO the ban, word is that PA has a bill "on the table" ready to go as soon as NJ would legalize the practice. For those who are not RROO geeks, a motion "on the table" is a trick where you stop debate but either side can put the debate right back on, thus way you do not need to start from scratch. Don't ask me more details and how it can sit over a new session, just going off a street rumor. That being said, PA modeled its gaming rules on nearby states, so I at least partly believe it.

AC does have the advantage for conventions, though that is fading. Lots of huge hotels real close together and importantly walkable. When a business has say 1,500 or more people it needs to bring, the number of places that can handle this load is very small. Just a few destinations. AC needs better airport access for this, though, as you have to quickly move those people.

Quote: AZDuffman

I still look at AC and see no backbone. What is the draw, the hook, to get people there? They can say it is a "getaway" for people living in PA that cannot be gotten hitting a locals place at home. That is not a huge market. The city is still as isolated as it ever was. Really, they have to package the places as a "getaway" since it is a most-of-the-day thing for players to get there. Locals are broke, the city is still a slum, so it has to be for tourists.

20 years ago I had many a meeting in AC. Casinos were a draw as there was very little casino action outside there. The rest of the places did not stand out. Bally's did not even have clocks in the hotel rooms!

I see it as uphill, forever.

I pretty much agree with everything that you said, here. They lost their draw which was really:

Ocean + Casinos

For people who want the ocean, they want a nice beach and there are other places with a casino at least within striking distance of the ocean if that is honestly a serious priority.

That said, I don't see any reason why AC should decline now that it seems to have leveled out a little bit. I also think Hard Rock will bring some business, but not too much new business.

Quote: WatchMeWin

The only thing that is going to save AC or make it a more attractive destination.... is sports betting and making it a 'destination'. They need to ramp up their convention location and make it an attractive place for businesses to hold meetings, etc. It needs to be marketed as a place to 'let go' and have fun. There are too many casinos in every state now... who the fu# needs to go to AC when they have what they need right in their backyards... gambling!

I think it's going to be tough to do that. My understanding is that it's considered dirty and a second-rate Boardwalk. The city itself isn't a place in which most people are going to feel comfortable walking around. It's really not for anyone unless you're going casino-Boardwalk-beach.

Quote: Mission146

For people who want the ocean, they want a nice beach and there are other places with a casino at least within striking distance of the ocean if that is honestly a serious priority.

That said, I don't see any reason why AC should decline now that it seems to have leveled out a little bit. I also think Hard Rock will bring some business, but not too much new business.

I don't even think "the beach" is a real draw. Families go to the beach, families do not stay at casino hotels. If they are on a budget they will go to Brigantine, or another seaside place more family friendly. I have not really seen the boardwalk beyond just outside the Showboat or Bally's since I was a little kid, 1977. Is it family friendly at all anymore?

Families that can afford AC will not be "beach people" but want a more DIsneylike experience.

Few businesspeople on conventions will care about the beach. We didn't, of course the high then was about 5F. In summer we still would not. It is not a great beach!

Quote: AZDuffman

I don't even think "the beach" is a real draw. Families go to the beach, families do not stay at casino hotels. If they are on a budget they will go to Brigantine, or another seaside place more family friendly. I have not really seen the boardwalk beyond just outside the Showboat or Bally's since I was a little kid, 1977. Is it family friendly at all anymore?

Families that can afford AC will not be "beach people" but want a more DIsneylike experience.

Few businesspeople on conventions will care about the beach. We didn't, of course the high then was about 5F. In summer we still would not. It is not a great beach!

Agree with bot of u.

The world is becoming one big Casino!

Quote: AZDuffman

I don't even think "the beach" is a real draw. Families go to the beach, families do not stay at casino hotels. If they are on a budget they will go to Brigantine, or another seaside place more family friendly. I have not really seen the boardwalk beyond just outside the Showboat or Bally's since I was a little kid, 1977. Is it family friendly at all anymore?

Families that can afford AC will not be "beach people" but want a more DIsneylike experience.

Few businesspeople on conventions will care about the beach. We didn't, of course the high then was about 5F. In summer we still would not. It is not a great beach!

It's not a great beach, agreed.

There were a few families down at the beach, mostly teens and younger adults, though. I generally agree that the beach isn't a real draw unless you also happen to be fairly into gambling. That's kind of my point, not only is gambling no longer a once or twice a year excursion for most people, (since there are casinos everywhere now) but there are other casinos within reasonable distance of nicer beaches.

Quote: Mission146

It's not a great beach, agreed.

There were a few families down at the beach, mostly teens and younger adults, though. I generally agree that the beach isn't a real draw unless you also happen to be fairly into gambling. That's kind of my point, not only is gambling no longer a once or twice a year excursion for most people, (since there are casinos everywhere now) but there are other casinos within reasonable distance of nicer beaches.

I've gone to the Jersey beaches all of my life. I've played in Atlantic City most of my adult life.. And I've probaby gone a handful of times on the Atlantic City Beach. They really dropped the ball on that back in the day.. But then again, there were only two places where people could gamble in casinos basically and they were Las Vegas in AC so they didn't have to do shit other than have casinos open. Competition is good and now they are suffering.

For me to go back to AC it would really take a special phenomenon to get me there. A true entrepreneur with vision needs to come and make it a place that everyone wants and needs to be. The sports gambling is one thing that will definitely get me down there and everyone that I know says they would go there for that as well. But they have to do it right.. Like Vegas does!

Quote: WatchMeWin

I've gone to the Jersey beaches all of my life. I've played in Atlantic City most of my adult life.. And I've probaby gone a handful of times on the Atlantic City Beach. They really dropped the ball on that back in the day.. But then again, there were only two places where people could gamble in casinos basically and they were Las Vegas in AC so they didn't have to do shit other than have casinos open. Competition is good and now they are suffering.

For me to go back to AC it would really take a special phenomenon to get me there. A true entrepreneur with vision needs to come and make it a place that everyone wants and needs to be. The sports gambling is one thing that will definitely get me down there and everyone that I know says they would go there for that as well. But they have to do it right.. Like Vegas does!

.... and is Pennsylvania get Sports gambling also as you mentioned, then AC is really F÷×_€€

Quote: WatchMeWin

For me to go back to AC it would really take a special phenomenon to get me there. A true entrepreneur with vision needs to come and make it a place that everyone wants and needs to be. The sports gambling is one thing that will definitely get me down there and everyone that I know says they would go there for that as well. But they have to do it right.. Like Vegas does!

How would one go about doing that without buying and renovating the entire city and beach? The problem, in my view, is not the casinos...it's that there are only the casinos.

Also, what do you say the Vegas sportsbooks do right? I'm just curious. You go up, you make your bet, you get your slip, you watch it on the TV's...I'm not really sure what's so great about that. Being able to bet on sports is certainly fun, but it seems like it would be a pretty hard thing for the casinos to screw up.

Quote: Mission146

How would one go about doing that without buying and renovating the entire city and beach? The problem, in my view, is not the casinos...it's that there are only the casinos.

Also, what do you say the Vegas sportsbooks do right? I'm just curious. You go up, you make your bet, you get your slip, you watch it on the TV's...I'm not really sure what's so great about that. Being able to bet on sports is certainly fun, but it seems like it would be a pretty hard thing for the casinos to screw up.

It is the experience. The huge tv screens and odds boards. The bars and restaurants and fun environment to watch game and hot waitresses.

Now part of the Allure is that everyone in Vegas is there to have a good time and usually on vacation or from somewhere else... vegas is where they can just let loose and be someone they aren't and have a great time.. The destination to act upon all your vices! Print it!

Quote: AZDuffman

I don't even think "the beach" is a real draw. Families go to the beach, families do not stay at casino hotels.

Don't know if that is true anymore or perhaps it should be 'wives don't want to, kids don't much care and husbands are the driving force for selecting a casino hotel'. In some places casinos are the only growth industry. You can read about "job fairs" for casinos, but when is the last time you read about a "job fair" for any other industry?

>>Families that can afford AC will not be "beach people" but want a more DIsneylike experience.
Well they may want it but all AC offers is Hotel, Boardwalk and Beach. You want Disney, tune in the Disney channel.

....It is not a great beach!
It don't gotta be great, it just gotta be better than stayin' home and better than draggin' the wife and kids to a casino what ain't got no beach.

NOTE: I would have divided the 'chopping block' section into two parts.
Chopping block due to operations.
Chopping block due to CET credit decisions at the corporate level.

Quote: FleaStiff

It don't gotta be great, it just gotta be better than stayin' home and better than draggin' the wife and kids to a casino what ain't got no beach.

I liked the phrasing of that! I don't know why, but it made me laugh. True, though.

Quote:

NOTE: I would have divided the 'chopping block' section into two parts.
Chopping block due to operations.
Chopping block due to CET credit decisions at the corporate level.

That's a fair point, although, Ocean Resort Casino and Bally's are the only two that I'm immediately putting on the chopping block. The first one is operations and the second is the whim of corporate CET, of course. As long as the revenues hold, I don't think any other casinos are at imminent risk. If pressed, I might even say that the market can sustain eight casinos, long-term, I just don't think it can sustain nine or more.

The difference is online operations bolstering the overall enterprises, of course. Without online, the market seems to have borne out the notion that eight casinos are not sustainable already.

Quote:

t is the experience. The huge tv screens and odds boards. The bars and restaurants and fun environment to watch game and hot waitresses.

Can be screwed up by noise levels, seating, drink policies and the level of hotness of the waitresses. And of course slow ticket writers will lead to waiting times which can be fatal to a sports bettor. In the online world, bandwidth will be vital.

Quote: AZDuffman

I don't even think "the beach" is a real draw. Families go to the beach, families do not stay at casino hotels. If they are on a budget they will go to Brigantine, or another seaside place more family friendly. I have not really seen the boardwalk beyond just outside the Showboat or Bally's since I was a little kid, 1977. Is it family friendly at all anymore?

Families that can afford AC will not be "beach people" but want a more DIsneylike experience.

Few businesspeople on conventions will care about the beach. We didn't, of course the high then was about 5F. In summer we still would not. It is not a great beach!

We go to the beach every year with our kids in AC. I just booked our July trip last week. I can get 5 nights for $120 with no resort fees. I may or may not gamble at night but probably not. However I will eat at their restaurants. I am probably a money loser for them on that week but I will continue to go until they shut me off. 6 years going strong so far.

Where's the poll option for 'I stopped beating my wife'?

My wife and I have been regular AC visitors since 2009. We travel there at least three times per year: once during the summer months, once for our wedding anniversary in the fall, and another for a concert or any other special event: hockey game, wine festival, etc.

When the Trump-named properties were operating (Plaza & Taj Mahal), we’d get complimentary rooms where we’d pay only the resort/entertainment fees. We like the vibe of AC. We enjoy the casinos, the beach, the shops, the restaurants, and the live entertainment so we want AC to succeed.

Quote: gigjones

My wife and I have been regular AC visitors since 2009. We travel there at least three times per year: once during the summer months, once for our wedding anniversary in the fall, and another for a concert or any other special event: hockey game, wine festival, etc.

When the Trump-named properties were operating (Plaza & Taj Mahal), we’d get complimentary rooms where we’d pay only the resort/entertainment fees. We like the vibe of AC. We enjoy the casinos, the beach, the shops, the restaurants, and the live entertainment so we want AC to succeed.

Thanks for posting! I see you've been around awhile!

I don't know that it's a matter of succeeding or not succeeding, and like I said in the article, they seem to have leveled out on Live Gaming Revenue over the last three years. I'm pretty sure (as a city) that they've basically hit the floor, (barring another major economic collapse on the national scale) but unfortunately, I don't think their ceiling is terribly high anymore.

There's just too much competition, but I do think that there is a base crowd of people who enjoy going to Atlantic City and will continue to do so for at least the next several years. I don't think there's much room to add to that base of customers, but if anyone can do it, it's Hard Rock. I also think the base should be enough that eight casinos could operate in the city profitably. I'm much less confident about nine in light of recent events.

Quote: Mission146

I liked the phrasing of that! I don't know why, but it made me laugh. True, though.

The phrasing is that of a blue-collar worker from Joisey and when you come right down to it, that is the most important market segment for Atlantic City.

So Resorts World Catskills is open now. It's a shorter (and easier) drive from North Jersey... Obviously no ocean, but they they will have golf, entertainment, food/bars, etc. in the area. I will check it out and could easily see going there for a daytrip, etc. instead of AC if it's nice.

Who gives a damn. Atlantic City deserved everything they got. That's what happens when brain-dead owners of these billion dollar corporations run the show. Had I been the owner of many of those casinos, Atlantic City would be on par with Vegas, if not better by now. AC has the beach as well, which Vegas does not and they still failed, that's completely laughable. Instead of focusing on that economic moat, they rather sabotage their most profitable and popular table game, and sweat the games, kicking people out, all for a short term profit and kill any long term hope, rather than focusing on the big picture.

"OH NO, all these card counters, oh my god, lets invest billions into surveillance and sweat the games to catch these 1.5% edge CHEATERS. They're going to take down the city!! If we spot one, throw them out as fast as we can!! God forbid, they spread their bets, I might have a heart attack. Let's completely forget that 99% of counters will go bust and let's also completely forget that all these counters would keep tables open and allow ploppies to join who are scared to play heads-up and only play full tables cause it's a 'team sport'. Let's just completely forget about all the indirect variables that counters bring to the casinos, but instead let's harbor on the fact that they will take down the city with their 5-10k bankroll and 1.5% edge. Let's make sure we trespass them, drag them to a back room and make them sign a trespassing statute and threaten them to never return again. Yeah that's the ticket, when do we start?"

If I ran a casino, every single blackjack game in the country would be 90% pen 4-6 deck games with S17, DAS, LS and i'd still outperform every single casino long term that's offering 6:5 blackjack currently on the strip and in AC. Let that sink in for how stupid these casinos are. Oh and guess what? I wouldn't skip steps for the sake of saving a few pennies, which is even debatable that they even save by doing this. Every 4-6 deck games would come in order and laid out on the felt for the ultimate customer transparency.

I have no pity for AC as well as Vegas and I hope nothing but the worst for these casino brain-dead scum that are in charge of this. I'm going to start posting flyers all over the strip to advertise against anyone playing 6:5. I'm pretty much going to start a campaign against these casinos and there's nothing they could do to stop me doing it. I'm just sick of it all here, I'm sick of the stupidity, the lack of ethics, and everything in between. I don't care how much money it will take either. And like I've always said, I'm not leaving this town until I have a Supreme Court decision in my favor as well.

Quote: ZenKinG

I'm going to start posting flyers all over the strip to advertise against anyone playing 6:5. I'm pretty much going to start a campaign against these casinos and there's nothing they could do to stop me doing it. I'm just sick of it all here, I'm sick of the stupidity, the lack of ethics, and everything in between. I don't care how much money it will take either. And like I've always said, I'm not leaving this town until I have a Supreme Court decision in my favor as well.

That's some super-hero stuff there. I might suggest dressing like Batman or something original while you do it. :) I'm only half joking/serious though. That might help make people take a look at the flyer. Would be pretty great if your flyers did make a change for the better but I doubt it.

Actually, now that I think of it, you could dress like a wizard that wisens up gamblers...no that's taken.

You might be on to something. But the crusade against evil casinos tightening odds and squeezing gamblers pockets might be better off squeezing theirs at the tables.

What exactly would you have on the flyer?

Quote: Mission146

Anyway, I hope some of you will enjoy this detailed look into the performance of Atlantic City and its individual casinos last year and what to expect in the years to come. If you would like to vote in the poll, multiple options can be selected.

I made the serious options the bottom four this time, just to switch it up a bit.

Two questions:

1) The Taj & others closing in recent years likely lead to some increased action at neighboring casino’s. Those regulars didn’t just stop gambling, they went elsewhere. So with the hard rock and whatever becomes of Revel likely opening up at some point in the near future, why do you project continued growth of gambling revenue in AC, rather than Hard Rock and Revel just taking back a piece of the pie that already exists?

2) One of my favorite things about Vegas is the hundreds of small off strip casino’s. Why did this never happen in AC? I have a feeling the answer is licensing & regulations, but maybe you can elaborate more...

Quote: gamerfreak

Two questions:

1) The Taj & others closing in recent years likely lead to some increased action at neighboring casino’s. Those regulars didn’t just stop gambling, they went elsewhere. So with the hard rock and whatever becomes of Revel likely opening up at some point in the near future, why do you project continued growth of gambling revenue in AC, rather than Hard Rock and Revel just taking back a piece of the pie that already exists?

2) One of my favorite things about Vegas is the hundreds of small off strip casino’s. Why did this never happen in AC? I have a feeling the answer is licensing & regulations, but maybe you can elaborate more...

1.) I think they will take a chunk of what already exists, but I think that Hard Rock will bring in a few new players because of it's national marketing reach. I certainly don't think there will be enough new revenue to support two entire casinos, but I think the market could maybe handle one, given the online gambling revenues. Online gambling shows no sign of slowing down in the state.

I think my projection was +0.01%-+2% for Live Gambling, so it's not exactly a prediction of a total resurgence of the market.

2.) For that you want to see Article 6 of the New Jersey Gaming Code:

http://www.nj.gov/casinos/law/act/docs_article06/cca-article06.pdf

Quote:

a. Notwithstanding the provisions of P.L.1977, c.110 (C.5:12-1 et seq.)
to the contrary, the Casino Control Commission shall establish a pilot
program under which it shall issue two additional types of casino licenses: a
small-scale casino facility license and a staged casino facility license. The
commission shall not issue a total of more than two licenses under the pilot
program and at least one of the licenses issued shall be a staged casino
facility license. Each small-scale casino facility and each staged casino
facility licensed under this section shall be new construction, located within
the Boardwalk casino zone, and shall originate on the beach block touching
the Boardwalk, but may extend across the street.
b. An applicant may apply to the commission for a casino license to
operate a small-scale casino facility consisting of not more than 24,000
square feet of casino space and not less than 200 qualified sleeping units,
with additional casino space as may be approved by the commission in
connection with the development of special amenities pursuant to section 2
of P.L.2010, c.115 (C.5:12-80.2).

The long and short of it is that, with the two types of, "Smaller," casinos allowed by the state, the smallest permanent one (small-scale) requires the operator to have at least 200 guest rooms. Not terribly small, right?

Besides that, they would first have to issue a, "Staged Casino," facility license before they could even have a small-scale license. The, "Staged Casino," is basically the same thing, except it gives the licensee five years to get itself up to 500 hotel rooms from the opening 200.

In other words, the state doesn't want to, for whatever reason. I guess because the other casinos might get ticked off if a smaller casino has online casino access, despite the fact that the cost and scope of its operations are much lower. Even then, you could just toss an amendment in there that would require a casino to be a certain size and with a certain room count to be allowed to have Internet Gambling, though, and that would solve that.

Other than that, I'm not the guy to ask. If I can drive two miles down a main road in any city without seeing a casino or parlor sitting somewhere, I'm already scratching my head wondering why the state has no interest in maximizing revenues.

Quote: Mooseton

That's some super-hero stuff there. I might suggest dressing like Batman or something original while you do it. :) I'm only half joking/serious though. That might help make people take a look at the flyer. Would be pretty great if your flyers did make a change for the better but I doubt it.

Actually, now that I think of it, you could dress like a wizard that wisens up gamblers...no that's taken.

You might be on to something. But the crusade against evil casinos tightening odds and squeezing gamblers pockets might be better off squeezing theirs at the tables.

What exactly would you have on the flyer?

I’m sure his strategy of starting out by telling people they are idiots and suckers will work great, why wouldn’t it?

NJ law requires state tax representatives to be present if a casino is open, so I doubt they ever had any desire for these Burger and Beer joints in Vegas that also feature video poker, upholstered chairs and a more social setting.

We all hate sweat the money joints. I remember South Point in Vegas bouncing three guys out of the casino when they increased their bets from red chip play to green chip play. Floor referred to them as 'greedy'.

Yeah, I am hoping the Hard Rock is a better experience than what is down there now. A focus on the guest experience would be nice. Have read nice things about their location in ft. lauderdale but I guess we'll see.

I've been thinking about it and I don't think there is really much room for growth down there at all anymore unless the political winds shift significantly. Maybe incremental growth like Mission says for a couple years and then just a slow decline over the next decade. A few more in-room meth labs and stuff and maybe that decline goes faster.

The beach isn't going to do jack for them, because people who want a good beach are going to go further south in the summertime and maybe all the way to Cape May. Family people are doing ocean city and wildwood. Suburbanites go to sea isle. Canadians go to Cape May.

Someone with imagination has to come in and just reinvent the entire place and give tourists from outside the region a reason to come. Chicken-and-egg problem with flight routes in/out of the AC airport. If you're a tourist and wanna come visit now you gotta either fly into philly and take a long ride, or do a total rewards air or fly borgata charter offer if you even qualify to get one which doesn't do jack for net new tourist visitors.

I did a quick trip down to Harrah's the other week just to see how they would treat me and if I want to continue having them in the mix of places I go, and I decided to cross them off the list even though they showed some signs of improvement last trip. Its just not good enough to be worth the hassle.

Gonna do a short trip to the Borgata and do the same evaluation, maybe swing by the host desk and see how receptive they are to me and stuff. If they're indifferent then I'm done with them too. But we'll see, maybe they've turned a new leaf. Only hope is the Hard Rock or Ocean do some impressive customer service. I don't think the Ocean is going to make it with that weird-ass building Revel built, unless they totally re-architect it and make it less weird. Maybe if they heavily market for the nightclub business. Although there's only so big of a market for bachelorette parties and I think the Borgata is already capturing all of it. $25 for a hamburger like it was at the Revel isn't going to fly either.

There's gotta be other people like me sitting out there trying to figure out where to go. The locals in PA all generally suck and are not worth it unless you're an old elderly person who has some kind of compulsion "must go put social security check money in slot machine like NOW before I pee my bed again". AC has turned into the hood and the guest experience at all the existing places leaves a lot, well everything, to be desired - although I haven't tried the trop or resorts. So, that leaves folks like me scratching our heads wondering ok, where to go. Only viable options seem to be the hard rock in tampa or ft. lauderdale, that Beau Rivage place that sends 50 lbs of junk mail a month, the mgm harbor place somewhere near DC that also sends 50 lbs of junk mail a month...or Vegas, baby.

The online casino shit is great and all, its not something I'm personally interested in, but if thats the entire focus for growth we're gonna wind up with AC turning into a ghetto office park amongst the projects so the online casinos have a physical mailbox and thats it. Maybe they'll just close the physical casinos, convert the hotels into section 8 housing and that'll be the end of that.

Quote: ZenKinG

Who gives a damn. Atlantic City [...] they rather sabotage their most profitable and popular table game, and sweat the games, kicking people out, all for a short term profit and kill any long term hope, rather than focusing on the big picture.

"OH NO, all these card counters, oh my god, lets invest billions into surveillance and sweat the games to catch these 1.5% edge CHEATERS. They're going to take down the city!! If we spot one, throw them out as fast as we can!!

New Jersey casinos have not been allowed to kick out card counters since before you were born.

It is fully legal in NJ to sit at a blackjack table and say the count out loud as each card hits the felt. They even have to let you bet.

Now, they can make life hard for you...no comps...no bet spread...shuffle after every hand. But you could literally hand the shift boss a business card that says professional card counter and they have to let you play, absent some other behavior that would let them bar you.

I don't know where you get your information from but it is obvious you are misinformed.

Quote: Zenking

Let's make sure we trespass them, drag them to a back room and make them sign a trespassing statute and threaten them to never return again. Yeah that's the ticket, when do we start?"

If this happened to a card counter in NJ, it would be the luckiest thing that ever happened to them. Easy six-figure lawsuit settlement, probably more if you add in defamation and psychological damages, all with a state supreme court case as ironclad precedent.

Whatever your day job ends up being, ZK, don't quit it.

Quote: sodawater

Quote: ZenKinG

Who gives a damn. Atlantic City [...] they rather sabotage their most profitable and popular table game, and sweat the games, kicking people out, all for a short term profit and kill any long term hope, rather than focusing on the big picture.

"OH NO, all these card counters, oh my god, lets invest billions into surveillance and sweat the games to catch these 1.5% edge CHEATERS. They're going to take down the city!! If we spot one, throw them out as fast as we can!!

New Jersey casinos have not been allowed to kick out card counters since before you were born.

It is fully legal in NJ to sit at a blackjack table and say the count out loud as each card hits the felt. They even have to let you bet.

Now, they can make life hard for you...no comps...no bet spread...shuffle after every hand. But you could literally hand the shift boss a business card that says professional card counter and they have to let you play, absent some other behavior that would let them bar you.

I don't know where you get your information from but it is obvious you are misinformed.



If this happened to a card counter in NJ, it would be the luckiest thing that ever happened to them. Easy six-figure lawsuit settlement, probably more if you add in defamation and psychological damages, all with a state supreme court case as ironclad precedent.

Whatever your day job ends up being, ZK, don't quit it.

How does zk not know this if he started counting on the east coast. I knew this info and I don't count.

I never understood why people continue to claim AC is dumpy, because that is not my experience at all.

The beach is fine. It's cleaner than many other NJ beaches and not nearly as crowded. I've never seen much trash at all, but they could do a better job raking because I've found glass in the sand a few times.

Ceasar's, Harrah's, and the Borgata are all super nice, and on the same level or higher as most Vegas Strip properties, although probably a bit smaller. The Tropicana is nice too.

Bally's and Resorts are definitely the lower end properties that I'd compare to the Flamingo in Vegas. I've never actually had a reason to go to GN, so I can't say much about it.

My biggest complaint in AC is the lack of entertainment beyond the Casino's and Beach. They need to get some regular shows going, even if it's B or C-List type residencies.

Because it is dumpy. None of these properties are in any way at the same level or higher than Vegas strip properties. Maybe Excalibur, Circus Circus. The B was closest but its still second string compared to Vegas.

I went down for a quick trip to the B down there last week, and the one notable thing I noticed was looking out my window I could see Harrah's with their huge LED graphic panel thing that puts ads on the whole side of their hotel, and it was advertising a ton of A and B list people in March coinciding with part of the WSOP. I thought it was notable mainly because I was surprised they are landing acts like that, so clearly they must be investing in that part. No residencies though.

I myself wouldn't care so much that its dumpy IF they were...hospitable. If all the personnel were friendly and warm and showed some hospitality. Unfortunately thats not the case either. Like I would rather go somewhere where the facilities are shitty if the people are happy to see me and have my business and are friendly to interact with as opposed to basically getting abused by the service workers.

Agree on the entertainment end though.

Quote: sodawater

Quote: ZenKinG

Who gives a damn. Atlantic City [...] they rather sabotage their most profitable and popular table game, and sweat the games, kicking people out, all for a short term profit and kill any long term hope, rather than focusing on the big picture.

"OH NO, all these card counters, oh my god, lets invest billions into surveillance and sweat the games to catch these 1.5% edge CHEATERS. They're going to take down the city!! If we spot one, throw them out as fast as we can!!

New Jersey casinos have not been allowed to kick out card counters since before you were born.

It is fully legal in NJ to sit at a blackjack table and say the count out loud as each card hits the felt. They even have to let you bet.

Now, they can make life hard for you...no comps...no bet spread...shuffle after every hand. But you could literally hand the shift boss a business card that says professional card counter and they have to let you play, absent some other behavior that would let them bar you.

I don't know where you get your information from but it is obvious you are misinformed.



If this happened to a card counter in NJ, it would be the luckiest thing that ever happened to them. Easy six-figure lawsuit settlement, probably more if you add in defamation and psychological damages, all with a state supreme court case as ironclad precedent.

Whatever your day job ends up being, ZK, don't quit it.

You are correct that they can't kick you out for counting but if they really want to get rid of you they willjust lie and make up an excuse.
Disturbing the peace or whatever,the gaming control is a puppet of the casinos,and their office are closed on weekends so even if you wish to file a complaint you have to wait until Monday.

Quote: supercharged

Because it is dumpy. None of these properties are in any way at the same level or higher than Vegas strip properties. Maybe Excalibur, Circus Circus. The B was closest but its still second string compared to Vegas.

I went down for a quick trip to the B down there last week, and the one notable thing I noticed was looking out my window I could see Harrah's with their huge LED graphic panel thing that puts ads on the whole side of their hotel, and it was advertising a ton of A and B list people in March coinciding with part of the WSOP. I thought it was notable mainly because I was surprised they are landing acts like that, so clearly they must be investing in that part. No residencies though.

I myself wouldn't care so much that its dumpy IF they were...hospitable. If all the personnel were friendly and warm and showed some hospitality. Unfortunately thats not the case either. Like I would rather go somewhere where the facilities are shitty if the people are happy to see me and have my business and are friendly to interact with as opposed to basically getting abused by the service workers.

Agree on the entertainment end though.

The Ac casinos basically treat the customer's like s@#t, it's the Jersey attitude.
They had an east coast monopoly for years and got used to abusing the customers.
If you never complain and act like a good little sheep you will be ok,but if you ever have an issue good luck.

As an Atlantic City Patron over the last 15 years, I can tell you firsthand the Pros and Cons of the AC scene.

PROS

1) Name Recognition - Despite all the bad press and recent decline in business, it still has that appeal when someone posts on Facebook they're "AC Bound" There is so much to do beyond gambling and I've entertained many friends, visiting relatives and business clients in this town. Never once did we have a "bad time" in AC, because I planned ahead and found out where there were shows and attractions happening.

2) Easily Accessible - For North Jersey & South Jersey patrons, it's a simple drive down the Parkway. But there are so many other routes available to get to AC it's insane. There are buses going all the time in Jersey and NYC. Also, there is still a decent number of Philly patrons that come down from AC Expressway. Everybody I know has made the drive to and from AC & it is almost like a badge of honor to make the drive home at 4 AM after a wild night of partying. Every job I've worked, there is always someone who has a "story" from AC and we can all reminisce about those good times.

3) Entertainment - Whether it's Friday night or Tuesday afternoon, there is plenty in AC to keep you entertained. I've seen some of the best concerts, comedy shows and live performances in this place. Heck, you can hang out at one of the local bars and be entertained by the local drama.

Cons

1) Locals - Yes, there is a stigma that the local AC residents are all low-lifes and derelicts. Unfortunately, there is high crime in certain parts away from the main strip of Casinos and you can run in to a drug dealer or prostitute from time to time. There are also the beggars who have little to no shame in asking you for money. They will literally watch you play a slot machine and follow you until you win Big. But you can always say "No!" and they will walk away without incident.

2) Unfriendly Employees - For the most part, pit bosses and hosts are amicable and will help you as best as they can. Dealers usually maintain the "Not my Problem" attitude when dealing with unruly customers or valid complaints. Sure enough, those dealers get moved to Floor personnel on weekends and they bring the same attitude towards dealing with customers asking for comps. It's a sad cycle of politics won't seem to change in AC and the best advice is to stop going to that particular casino and let another property rate your play.

3) Lame Offers and Gifts - There was a time when properties like Taj, Resorts, CET and Trop would offer great free play and gift promotions to card holders. Even comp tickets to a popular concert or event were no problem for members. Nowadays, they give pathetic free play amounts of $10 per week and cheap gifts such as plastic step stools, Tupperware, and flimsy tote bags. I can remember the days of getting MP3 players, Tablets, & Gift Cards. Now you'll be lucky to get a t-shirt from these cheapskates.

Overall, AC has its highs and lows. But it is still a place to go to have a good time for Locals. And I constantly see visitors from Virginia, Maryland, DC, South Carolina, etc. So there is still that appeal for tourists. But certainly an image over haul would help bring back the customers they lost and fixing the cons above might be a good start.

Quote: BedWetterBetter

As an Atlantic City Patron over the last 15 years, I can tell you firsthand the Pros and Cons of the AC scene.

3) Lame Offers and Gifts - There was a time when properties like Taj, Resorts, CET and Trop would offer great free play and gift promotions to card holders. Even comp tickets to a popular concert or event were no problem for members. Nowadays, they give pathetic free play amounts of $10 per week and cheap gifts

I have been going to AC since BG (Before Gambling).

When legalized gambling came to AC there was fierce competition to get patrons to visit their casinos. I would point out that this before the invention of Player Cards.

You could buy the Sunday papers and there would be $10 off food coupons. There were coupons for free key chains, bottle openers, calendars, etc. the casinos would do anything just to get you in the door. The offers were from Claridge, Playboy Club and who remembers the Brighton? http://atlanticcityexperience.org/10012-experience-the/atlantic-city-hotels/142-brighton-hotel.html

If I knew that I was definitely going to AC, I would buy 2 Sunday papers just for the food coupons. One coupon for me and one coupon for the wife. People at my workplace would also cut the coupons out and give them to whoever was going to go to AC that week.

One visit stands out. I had a fistful of $10 food coupons. My wife and I went to one of the Caesars restaurants. When it came time to order, I told the waitress that we were in a hurry because we were going to the Sammy Davis show. Just bring us $20 of shrimp cocktails. That's when $10 was worth $10.

What better than free food and comped tickets to see the show. After the show we went back to the restaurant and had a meal before we left.

If AC would offer these food coupons and other free offers again, I do believe it would entice people to take a drive down to AC and visit the casinos.

It was so much better back then when all the properties were individually owned.