O'Sheas License

This has been mentioned in a few previous threads, and touched upon by the Wiz in his flamingo review, but by my understanding, O'Sheas is for all intents and purposes a part of the Flamingo. Same license, though I guess it isn't technically attached.

How does this work? Are there any other dual-casinos that operate under one license (Palazzo and Encore I'm assuming)? What governance is there over this, could Harrah's buy Casino Royale and collapse the license into Harrah's?

Just curious, as in my mind, I always considered them distinct.

Quote: dlevinelaw

This has been mentioned in a few previous threads, and touched upon by the Wiz in his flamingo review, but by my understanding, O'Sheas is for all intents and purposes a part of the Flamingo. Same license, though I guess it isn't technically attached.

How does this work? Are there any other dual-casinos that operate under one license (Palazzo and Encore I'm assuming)? What governance is there over this, could Harrah's buy Casino Royale and collapse the license into Harrah's?

Just curious, as in my mind, I always considered them distinct.

No idea though my understanding is you would not want to collapse a license as they have some value on their own.

Here are the dual licenses I'm aware of:

Wynn-Encore
Venetian-Palazzo
Flaimingo-O'Shae's

I think from a business and Gaming standpoint, they are the same casino.

The case of Paris-Ballys I'm not sure how to define. I think they use the same chips, and the slot tickets say "Bally's Paris," but Gaming lists them separately.

That might be due to the fact Bally's has been around longer and Paris was a new build. This wouldnt apply to the Wynn/Venetian scenarios as they were both new builds and so would have new licences when they were built, where as Bally's would have already had its license.

when I hit a $3,200 progressive slot jackpot at Bally's a few years back, the W2G was shown as being issued by "Parball Corporation" which is the wholly-owned subsidiary of Harrahs that owns/operates Paris/Bally's.

I can confirm that chips at Bally's are usable at Paris and vice versa. Is there a rule about interchangability of chips from one casino to another?

ken

I dont know if you can use chips for other casinos, even within the same group at other casinos, but you can give casino chips as tips to servers/cocktail waitresses from other properties (in Las Vegas). Probably wouldnt for anything less than 25 bucks, otherwise you would look really cheap and it wouldnt be worth the trip for the server.

Quote: kenspaulding

Is there a rule about interchangability of chips from one casino to another?

There IS such a rule, but I'm not sure how far-reaching it is. I.E. I don't know if it's just casinos in the same company, if there's a dollar limit or what. But I've questioned getting Harrah's chips from a Flamingo dealer. He said it happens all the time and it's not a problem.

That sort of thing wouldn't fly in A.C. In fact, there's a LOT of stuff that happens in Vegas casinos that would never happen in A.C.

For example, it's standard practice to get chips from the cage before sitting down to poker. So I was at Binion's and asked about seating. She said there was an open seat, so I asked where the cage was. She simply took a key from her pocket and opened a desk drawer full of cash and chips and asked, "How much?" No security, supervisor or co-worker nearby. Heck, not even a wall or counter to keep me from reaching into the drawer! I'm still shocked at that.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

There IS such a rule, but I'm not sure how far-reaching it is. I.E. I don't know if it's just casinos in the same company, if there's a dollar limit or what. But I've questioned getting Harrah's chips from a Flamingo dealer. He said it happens all the time and it's not a problem.

That sort of thing wouldn't fly in A.C. In fact, there's a LOT of stuff that happens in Vegas casinos that would never happen in A.C.

For example, it's standard practice to get chips from the cage before sitting down to poker. So I was at Binion's and asked the poker manager about seating. She said there was an open seat, so I asked where the cage was. She simply took a key from her pocket and opened a desk drawer full of cash and chips and asked, "How much?" No security, supervisor or co-worker nearby. Heck, not even a wall or counter to keep me from reaching into the drawer! I'm still shocked at that.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

There IS such a rule, but I'm not sure how far-reaching it is. I.E. I don't know if it's just casinos in the same company, if there's a dollar limit or what. But I've questioned getting Harrah's chips from a Flamingo dealer. He said it happens all the time and it's not a problem.

Funny, that. Once at Harrah's, some guy sits down with a stack of reds and starts playing Let It Ride. About halfway through his stack he puts out a Flamingo $5. The dealer notices and says, "You can't use those here," and starts going through the guy's stack, weeding out the Flamingo chips. The guy said, "Well, you're both Harrah's properties, what's the big deal?" The dealer's response basically revolved around "Doesn't matter, that's the rules," but he pulled about four or five Flamingo chips out, replaced them with Harrah's chips, and dropped the Flamingo chips.

I think these are the relevant gaming regs:

12.060 Use of chips and tokens.
2. A licensee that uses chips or tokens at its gaming establishment shall:
(e) Take reasonable steps, including examining chips and tokens and segregating those issued by other licensees to prevent the issuance to its patrons of chips and tokens issued by another licensee.
5. A licensee shall not knowingly issue, use, permit the use of, or redeem chips or tokens issued by another licensee, except as follows:
(a) A licensee may redeem tokens issued by another licensee if:
(1) The tokens are presented by a patron for redemption to a cashier of the licensee’s gaming establishment or, in the case of a location having slot machines operated by a licensed operator of a slot machine route, if a patron presents them to the operator’s employee at the location; or
(2) The tokens are presented by a patron at a table game; and
(3) The licensee redeems the tokens with tokens of its own, separates and properly accounts for the redeemed tokens during the count performed pursuant to the licensee’s system of internal control required by Regulation 6, and places the redeemed tokens in the table’s drop box, if redeemed at a table game; and
(b) A licensee may redeem chips issued by another licensee if:
(1) The chips are presented by a patron for redemption at the cashier’s cage of the licensee’s gaming establishment; or
(2) The chips are presented by a patron at a table game, and the licensee redeems the chips with chips of its own, places the redeemed chips in the table’s drop box, and separates and properly accounts for the redeemed chips during the count performed pursuant to the licensee’s system of internal control submitted pursuant to Regulation 6.050 or 6.060; and
(c) An operator of a slot machine route or its employee may redeem tokens that are issued by the operator for use at another location.

IANAL, but it seems pretty cut and dried. The guy at Flamingo shouldn't have been giving out Harrah's chips, because they're different licenses, even though they're the same owner. I think it has to do with accounting and cash-on-hand requirements as put forth elsewhere in the gaming regs.

i accidently kept a few hooters chips in a pocket... i cashed thm out at PH the other day.

Still catching up on topics I missed while traveling…

Two items on this thread caught my eye. First with regard to dual licenses, I recently read somewhere (perhaps on another thread here) that the Slots-A-Fun license had been merged with the Circus Circus license. I think I read that it is now “Slots-A-Fun at Circus Circus,” that they had to close at least briefly for some NGC accounting matter, and that they had to change out their chips. If true, that would add another to the list provided by the Wiz. It also raises the question of whether they really now have chips stating the long name, in which case I would need to get another souvenir for my collection (much like the way I have both South Coast and South Point and both Barbary Coast and Bill’s.) Anyone know more about the situation at Slots-A-Fun (and I am not referring to it’s being a zoo)?

Second, just my two cents worth on exchanging chips in another casino: my experience has been that small chips from other Vegas casinos are readily swapped at most tables but that for larger chips they ask you to swap them at the cage, where there is no problem. I once swapped a $25 Luxor chip at one of the places in Primm, but down there they asked me to take even that one to the cage. The teller looked it up to make certain it was still a current Luxor chip, but she had no problem accepting it.

Quote: Doc

The teller looked it up to make certain it was still a current Luxor chip....

Now, there's a reference source I'd like to know about. Where did she look it up? In a book, or online? (What's the website?)

Quote: Wizard

Here are the dual licenses I'm aware of:

Wynn-Encore
Venetian-Palazzo
Flaimingo-O'Shae's

I think from a business and Gaming standpoint, they are the same casino.

The case of Paris-Ballys I'm not sure how to define. I think they use the same chips, and the slot tickets say "Bally's Paris," but Gaming lists them separately.

Paris/Bally operated under one license from the opening of Paris until roughly spring of 2008. Then they applied and got separate licenses. They still have the chips from when they operated apart.

Venetian/Palazzo and Wynn/Encore and Flamingo/Oshea's operate under single licenses. Slots of Fun has been operating under it's own license

Since SLOTS-A-FUN was listed under this database of square feet it was under a separate license as of end of June 2009. Because it is not listed separately under database of game counts which is updated as of December 2009 it looks like they merged their license with Circus Circus.

A blog written by a fan of SLOTS-A-FUN reported the rebranding.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Now, there's a reference source I'd like to know about. Where did she look it up? In a book, or online? (What's the website?)

She used a computer in the cage -- I remember because she had to re-boot and apologized for the delay. She did not say anything about whether it was an internal database, something shared by casinos, or something publicly available. I, too, would be interested.

And yes, pacomartin, that blog and some related reports are where I read about the change supposedly happening last summer. Does anyone know what the Slots-A-Fun chips are like now?

The database of square footages and game counts on the website is public. However, it is not always up to date. The square footage database tends to have too many (not too few) casinos. It always includes some that have been closed. I think the one with number of machines is more accurate.

I have cross checked the database with the physical casino, and there are inconsistencies. So neither database is perfect.

I was just at O'Sheas this weekend, and note that they are using Flamingo chips. They did not offer separate O'Sheas chips.

Also, as of a couple weeks ago Slots-a-Fun was using Circus Circus chips.

Quote: 7outlineaway

Also, as of a couple weeks ago Slots-a-Fun was using Circus Circus chips.

I believe that if they operate under one license they must license the same chips. Although there may be chips that say Wynn and others that say Encore, technically they are interchangeable.

The Gaming commission said that originally the two casinos had to be connected by an indoor hallway, but they relaxed that rule at some date. It allowed them to make Slots-A-Fun just a portion of Circus circus.

Most casinos will accept foreign chips but they want you to turn all your foreign chips in at once and not dig into your pockets for more.
Casinos realize players get a bit buzzed and like to wander. The first time I offered foreign chips at a craps table I was too buzzed to even realize it and had no idea which casino I was in at the time.
I think there was a firm that went around settling up all the foreign chips, but I'm not sure of this. I doubt it was the same guy that went around to churches and converted their donation-plate chips to cash. He was supposedly referred to as Brother Chip.

In order to make some sense of those numbers you have to know what constitutes a separate license or not.

The casino commission releases a monthly report on the 39 Vegas strip licenses that make over $1 million per year
(1) 22 > $72 million per year
(2) 7 > $36 million per year < $72 m
(3) 7 > $12 million per year < $36 m
(4) 3 > $1 million per year < $12 m
(5) 4 < $1 million per year but are still unrestricted licenses

For fiscal year 2010 which ended last June 30th there were 23 casinos that made over $72 million that year

	Las Vegas Strip
	MGM Resorts Inc
1	ARIA RESORT & CASINO
2	BELLAGIO
3	EXCALIBUR HOTEL AND CASINO
4	MANDALAY BAY RESORT & CASINO
5	MGM GRAND HOTEL/CASINO
6	MIRAGE, THE
7	MONTE CARLO RESORT & CASINO
8	NEW YORK - NEW YORK HOTEL & CASINO
9	LUXOR HOTEL AND CASINO
	Ceasars Inc
10	CAESARS PALACE
11	BALLY'S LAS VEGAS
12	FLAMINGO LAS VEGAS/O'SHEAS
13	HARRAH'S CASINO HOTEL LAS VEGAS
14	PARIS LAS VEGAS
15	PLANET HOLLYWOOD RESORT & CASINO
16	RIO SUITE HOTEL & CASINO
	Other Corporations
17	GOLD COAST HOTEL AND CASINO
18	PALMS CASINO RESORT
19	TREASURE ISLAND
20	VENETIAN CASINO RESORT
21	WYNN LAS VEGAS
22	PALACE STATION HOTEL (in City of LV)
23	LAS VEGAS HILTON

In FY2011 there are only 22 casinos in this category, so I assume that the Las Vegas Hilton was the casino that fell below $72 million.

The other 16 over $1 million (without putting them into more detailed income groups) are:

1	BILL'S GAMBLIN' HALL & SALOON
2	CASINO ROYALE
3	CASUARINA CASINO LAS VEGAS
4	CIRCUS CIRCUS HOTEL (>$72M in FY08)
5	ELLIS ISLAND CASINO
6	HARD ROCK HOTEL & CASINO
7	HOOTERS CASINO HOTEL
8	IMPERIAL PALACE HOTEL (>$72M in FY09)
9	RIVIERA HOTEL & CASINO
10	SAHARA HOTEL & CASINO
11	TERRIBLE'S HOTEL AND CASINO
12	TROPICANA RESORT AND CASINO
13	TUSCANY LAS VEGAS
14	WILD WILD WEST GAMBLING HALL
15	PALMS CASINO - SPORTS POOL
16	AIRPORT SLOT CONCESSION

In previous years Bally's and Paris were under one license, and Slots-A-Fun was under it's own license. Oshea's was never under it's own license. RIVIERA casinos also has the SPORTS POOL under a separate license, but they do not make more than $1 million per year.