Mission146
Posted by Mission146
Dec 10, 2012

Horseshoe Cleveland Trip Report

TRIP REPORT

I would first like to thank JohnnyQ for starting a thread which brought this Promo to my attention. I had followed Horseshoe for a couple months after they first opened waiting for a good New Member TR promotion to no avail. I suppose I basically forgot that the place existed after a couple months and had not followed TR website, Googled Horseshoe Cleveland, or anything like that.

I left last night at about 22:30 because my wife was going to bed. I kind of grappled with whether or not to go yesterday, but ultimately decided to because the language of the promotion was such that it could be revoked at any time...but given they had just sent me an E-Mail the day before, it'd be kind of difficult for them to tell me I could not take advantage of the Promo.

The drive was pretty uneventful, which is mainly why I like to go places in the late p.m. or early a.m. hours if they are somewhat far away. At one point, I missed an exit because, strangely, you had to exit in order to get on the road (I-71 North) that you were actually already on. This was easily corrected simply by picking up the next exit, going the opposite way, and picking up I-71 North again from the opposite side.

I arrived in the general area of the casino where they have three or four parking garages that are affiliated with the house, but there are also others there (all closed at that time) which made it somewhat confusing because some of the gates (predictably) were not open at the casino's parking garages at the time I arrived, which was a little after 1:00. I eventually managed to find one of the casino's garages with an open gate.

I tend to believe that I picked the one the farthest away from the casino, somehow, because I had to go out the parking garage, then loop around the rest of the block, which then put me on a straight line to the casino's main entrance. There's probably a better garage to use, but that one seemed much closer when I pulled into it.

I went to the TR desk on the second floor and presented my mailer along with a copy from the webpage of the promo and that return E-Mail. (just to be safe) Fortunately, they recognized the promo immediately without me even saying anything, and one of the ladies exclaimed, "Thank God, someone who actually remembered to bring in the coupon!"

I signed up for the TR card, but it ended up being twenty (or so) minutes before they could load my Free Play because there was something wrong with that part of their system and it was not letting them do it the usual way. Ultimately, they loaded the Free Play manually and asked if they could keep my mailer for their records. I told them that was fine because, even if I do go to Scioto this month, it comes automatically loaded onto the card, so I don't need the actual mailer for anything.

The parking system there is such that it is $25, unless you play for a half hour AND earn 15 Points, in which event you can go to the promotion kiosk and get a voucher making parking free. I boldly asked for parking to be comped up front due to having to wait so long for the promotion to work, but she said that the time you are using FP counts towards the half hour requirement and that obtaining 15 points after that is easy. (It is)

On the one hand, I kind of wanted to wander around the entire establishment so as to provide a full review, but on the other hand, I figured I would want to take a nap after getting home and had stuff to do as of 8:30, so I briefly took a look around.

I didn't make it up to the third or fourth floor, but one of those is the poker floor. The first and second floors are set up essentially the same way with Table Games two deep occupying a row in the center of the main floor while there are slot machines on either side. The first floor had a few small, what I'll call, "Alcoves," with various machines while the second floor had larger alcoves. In terms of the machines, the first floor was kind of all over the place with no readily apparent organization. The second floor was more organized with alcoves based mainly on denomination along with a HUGE alcove exclusively of VP/Keno games.

I was mainly looking for Quick Hits Platinum 30/Lines * 5/Line $0.01 Denom for $1.50 Max Bet, but if those are there, I missed them. I went around the more well-organized second floor first as that was the location of the TR desk making mental notes of estimated ER given the Progressives on the 30/Lines * 5 Line $0.02 Denom for $3.00 Max Bet (given that I hadn't seen $0.01 yet) and then ventured downstairs.

I continued to look around for the $0.01/denom Quick Hits Platinum at 30/Lines * 5/Line, and if they are there at all, I couldn't find them. I ended up finding a regular Quick Hits Blazing 7's Progressive (not Platinum) at $0.02/Denom at 30/Lines * 5/line for $3.00/Max Bet. I will admit that I first loaded $10.00 FP onto a Keno/VP machine upon which the only Keno Game was Four Card Keno...it's fairly stupid. I guess the reasoning is that people will think they have a better chance of winning if they can theoretically cover 40 numbers (as opposed to the usual ten) in one play. I prefer Keno with some kind of bonus games or multipliers, myself. You could cover all 80 of the Numbers with Eight-Card Keno, and it doesn't mean anything if the numbers get spread in an unfavorable way...no change in the liklihood of that (per individual card) regardless of how many you play.

I pulled out a ticket for $5.75 (that I almost forgot to cash out!) and went to the Quick Hits bank.

I loaded $15.00 onto the Quick Hits machine which left me with $225 FP, after five spins I said, "Screw it," and loaded the rest. I began counting backwards from 75 Spins, and things were looking quite like shit by the time I reached Seven and was down to $122.xx (including the remaining $21.00 Free Play) on the machine. No Free Games, no Progressives, nada.

It was on that Spin that I hit for some Free Games, and being the bad ass that I am, pulled 20 Free Games @ 3x Pays. On the Fourth Free Games spin, I ended up hitting another 20 Free Games, but it looked much as though it wouldn't matter as they had only brought me about $116 by the time I reached the final one, then, BOOM another set of Free Games (Only 10 as the retrigger is up to 50 total), and with six left, I hit for Six Quick Hits and $450, with the other inconsequential wins, I found myself at $738.00 when all was said and done.

There was a security guard and a member of staff who watched all this unfold stating, "This sometimes ends up being a handpay when someone gets 20 Free Games, so we decided we might as well watch them just in case." I really appreciated that kind of attention on their part, and even though I didn't get hand paid, I decided to toke each of them $10.00.

I normally play up or down to multiples of $50 or $100, but decided to have some fun because even though the, "House money," was actually my money at that point, it wasn't like any money came out of my wallet, so I decided up to $1000 or down to $500. I was at about $670 when I hit the bottom Progressive (Five Quick Hits) for $46.xx and decided to switch machines.

I went back upstairs to a Quick Hits Platinum Max $3.00 machine and got knocked down to around $600 in a real hurry. I switched to a $0.25/denom 5 Lines @ 1/line Quick Hits three-reel machine and hit Free Games 20x * 3x Pays (Did not hit any re-triggers) which brought me back up to $670. I then hit the bottom Progressive for $21.xx and switched machines again. I ended up at some Quick Hits machine with Chinese Symbols that I had never seen before, but it was a Linked Progressive with one other machine...and the Progressives looked pretty good...so I played that. I ended up down to $575 when I hit for Free Games at 15 games * 2x Pays. There were no re-triggers, but I did hit for 5 Quick Hits on two occasions during that run which were good for $60.00 each. I ultimately ended up with $734.xx.

It was nearly 3:00a.m. at that point, and I really wanted to get home in time to take a nap, so I cashed out and went to the Promotions Kiosk to obtain my parking voucher. Given the size of my win I decided on one big, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained," spin on a $1.00/denom Quick Hits at 25/Lines, Max 1/Line for $25.00. Those were on the first floor.

First Reel: Inconsequential
Second Reel: Free Games
Third Reel: Free Games

AND

Fourth Reel: Whiff!

Oh well. Still +$709 less $20 in tips for +$689.

I can live with that!

Brief Review

There are a ridiculous quantity of slot machines that I have never seen before at this location for the true Slots enthusiast, but for me, there are only three types of machines: Quick Hits, Video Keno and any machine with a fixed Max, "Progressive must hit by," sort of motif. They had many such machines of the G+ Deluxe variety, but none of them were anywhere even approaching an advantage point.

Even at this time of the morning, the Tables were seeing plenty of action. There were no less than fifteen Blackjack Tables (smallest minimum: $15) open between the two floors, Three open Craps Tables (Minimum $10) between the two floors...I thought about playing some Craps, but the mood was really somber at those tables...Two Baccarat Tables (and maybe more) open on the second floor, I believe minimum $25, and two open Roulette Tables, Minimum $10, but only the one on the first floor had anyone playing. I didn't really look for anything else as I was somewhat in a hurry to get down to business AND Craps was the only one that I even considered playing.

The staff is just extremely friendly across the board. The TR girls were nice, everyone I encountered walking through smiled and said, "Hi," to me, and I was especially impressed with those two members of staff waiting for the Free Games to end (when they noticed them) in case of a handpay.

The casino seemed to have plenty of dining options, though none of them appeared open.

I saw cocktail waitresses running around all over the first floor, and decided I'd like some coffee when I was on the second floor (there did not seem to be any self-service anything anywhere), so I hit the, "Beverage," button on the TR screen, but nobody showed up. I was at the $0.25 Quick Hits at this time, and then I had the hit that caused me to decide to switch machines, so about fifteen minutes and nobody showed up. Oh well. Saved me from having to tip $5.00 for a cup of coffee, I suppose.

I was accosted by a gentleman sitting at a second floor machine near the escalator with his legs propped up on a chair to, "Borrow," $5.00 so he could try to win $20.00 for gas money to get home. I declined. I was surprised to see him sitting and begging in such a way, almost as though he had no worries of being ejected.

I saw security remove a couple after they had a VERY amusing verbal exchange, details if anyone wants them.

I was bothered outside of the casino (half a block away) by someone begging for money for a bus. I told him I lost everything I had at Blackjack. He left me alone after that.

There is more than adequate security inside of the premises, and you'll also see security roaming around outside near the front doors as well as here and there along the streets. I believe that I saw two golf carts with a security guy riding around outside looking around, but it may have been the same one twice. Again, I may have picked the wrong (not the closest) garage, but as a 6'4" 215lb. male, it was an uncomfortable walk to my car at 3:30a.m. I can handle myself against one person just fine, but there's always the concern of being outnumbered. WI is so slow and Scioto Downs is so well-lit in the early a.m. hours that I've never had even the slightest feeling of foreboding at either of those places.

To Return

I usually gamble in the early a.m. hours, so probably not. If I ever felt inclined to go during the day, or if any FP offers (doubtful) make it worth the outside risk of physical harm coming to me, then maybe. It's probably one of the more glitzy places I've ever been to, but Scioto Downs is a little bit nicer (though the staff at Horseshoe is much more friendly) and the facility itself at Scioto (while smaller) is probably a bit more clean and upscale. I also prefer the crowd at Scioto to that at Horseshoe Cleveland.

The other problem with Horseshoe Cleveland is that the $3.00/Max Quick Hits Progressives were about as cheap as it was getting there on a $0.01/$0.02 denom slot machine for a Max Bet, though many of the $0.25/denom machines had a cheaper Max...while some were more expensive.

I tend to like my $1.50 Max Bet Quick Hits Platinums which can be found...I don't know...virtually anywhere else!!! I like to get some time value out of my money, especially when it is Free Play as I am not quite as concerned with winning or losing on the Free Play, though I am there more for entertainment than being concerned of winning or losing anyway...which explains my newfound affinity for Video Keno, though I keep Coin-In REALLY cheap on that!

I would give the place a 7/10 overall discluding the safety concerns. My only problems were no self-serve beverages and the high Max Bet amounts on even the lowest machines in terms of Max Bet. Yes, you can bet smaller than the Max Bet, but obviously that's just G**D*** stupid on the vast majority of machines.

I'm not going to hold the safety concerns against them. It's Cleveland. If there's anyone who feels really safe in Cleveland, it's because he is a lineman for the Browns.

Good session, good time, good money, though...just thirsty as Hell by the time I left.

Comments

odiousgambit
odiousgambit Dec 11, 2012

You got $240 in freeplay just for getting a player's card?

Mission146
Mission146 Dec 11, 2012

OdiousGambit,



$250, I believe you missed the $10 I loaded onto the Keno machine.



It is a special promotion for December by which, if you are completely new to Total Rewards Program, they will DOUBLE any Free Play mailer from any casino within x=? miles (there was some discussion as to whether or not Scioto was close enough, even though the only place closer is Hollywood Toledo...which is probably who they are going for) and up to $1,000.



In any event, I have $125/week for a total of $500 at Scioto Downs, for a second there one lady thought I was entitled to $1,000 Free Play because the coupon says, "Mission146 (real name in place), you have $500 Free Play for December!" The E-Mail said it would be $250, but I obviously wasn't going to correct anyone if they decided to go $1,000...



Anyway, that's the promotion, but keep in mind:



1.) You must have a physical mailer/coupon.



2.) You must NEVER have been a Total Rewards Member.



AND



3.) If there are any date/time restrictions, (Friday @ 00:00 to Sunday @ 04:59 is restricted at Scioto) then the same restrictions will apply at Horseshoe.



It is a killer friggin' deal, though, best New Member Promo I have ever seen. Aside from that, I've seen a 100% Free Play match here and there.

Mission146
Posted by Mission146
Oct 08, 2012

Scioto Downs Trip Report/Review

This is really more of a Review than a Trip Report, because it was only a, "Trip," in the loosest of terms.

I got done with work at about 1:30 a.m. Saturday night, so I made the two hour drive to Scioto Downs with $75 FreePlay. I generally wouldn't go that far for that amount of Free Play, except my wife was out of town for a conference and my Mom had the kids, so I figured, "What the Hell."

The Free Play did not meet the ER in any way whatosever. I ended up going with a QuickHits Progressive and loaded the entire amount of the Free Play $50-$20-$5 onto the machine all at once at a Max Bet of $1.50/pull. I did it this way because it was easy just to count down from 50 pulls and know when I had went through the $75. I hit for Free Games once, a very unfortunate 2 15's + Wild +5 Free Games at 2x pay that yielded only $17 in twenty spins. I had some, "Winning," spins besides that, but they were all winning spins that were less than the $1.50 bet. Ultimately, I ended up with $32 which is patently horrible for $75 Free Play.

I ticketed that out and pocketed the ticket and decided only to play $50 in cash.

I went to the beverage station, which was clean and nicely laid out with everything readily accessible. They had a choice of three different creamers, one French Vanilla, but I don't use creamer, just wanted to include that. They also had ten different soda/pop selections available, so that's a pretty good selection for free. The coffee was again rich and flavorful, and again not hot enough. I was able to sip it straight-away which you shouldn't be able to do.

I did a quick head count against rows of machines as I wandered through the Racino, and barring the barren High Limit Room, I came up with about one individual for every Six-Seven machines, which really isn't bad considering it was 3:30a.m. and alcohol was done being served at that time.

The selection of machines there makes even a, "Slots-First," player like me wish for some tables. It was terrible. First of all, I would say that a full 80% of their machines (other than High Limit Room) are of the $0.01 denomination, and 90-95% of those are some sort of Progressive. There are maybe 20 $0.25/Denomination machines in the entire House, and the $0.25 5/Line Quick Hits Progressives seem to be all gone in favor of Game King Keno machines which I don't believe were there last time I went.

Furthermore, the vast majority of the $0.25-$1.00 denomination machines were also Progressives, and those that weren't were so top-heavy on the Payouts it was ridiciulous. For example, there was a $1.00 Single-Line Triple-Diamond machine in which the third Top payout for Two Credits bet was $50 (barring Triple Diamonds) then the Second top was $800 and the Top was $4,000.

Scioto Downs proudly displays on their website that they have awarded an estimated $510,000,000 in Jackpots to date, which is no surprise when you consider how top-heavy the Payout strucures are on their machines. In most cases, I would suggest that one will either hit a Jackpot or lose, unless one is playing one of the QuickHits machines which is one of the only machines with no ridiculously huge disparity between Payouts.

Again, I played the QuickHits Progressives at $1.50/pull with the FreePlay, but the vast majority of the $0.01/denomination machines were in the $3.00-$6.00 Max Bet range. I also saw a $0.02 machine that played 20 Lines at 25 Credits/Line Max Bet (regular 20-Line Quickhits Progressive premise) for an absolutely insane $10/spin, perhaps that should be in the high-roller room!!!

The overall selection when it comes to types of machines (rather than denominations) isn't horrible. There are plenty of the cartoonish Video Slots for the people who like those. There are also some themed slots in the $0.01-$0.25 Denomination range such as Three different types of Monopolys, (or Monopolies?) Yahtzee, Sex & The City, Grease, Wheel of Fortune, Tarzan, Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz (I think), Press Your Luck and Betty Boop. I believe that there were a few others, but lacking my notebook that I forgot to bring, none of them are coming to mind.

There are also many of the favorites that you expect to see like Austrailian Reels, (It might not be called that) Kronos, Quick Hits, Queen of the Jungle, Cleopatra and many others that I see all the time, but forget the names of, because I don't care for the cartoonish ones. Among the more traditional of slot machines are Triple-Diamond, Five Times Pay, Ten Times Pay, Blazing 7's, Hotshot Progressive, Double-Diamond and others.

In any event, if you like Slots, then there will be no shortage of selections when it comes to machine types, but Max $$$ per pull is another matter altogether.

Scioto Downs is not a good place to go if you want to stretch $50, or even $100. My $50 lasted until about 7:00a.m., and started playing that at about 4:00a.m., but that's only because I don't play especially fast, switch machines a good deal, and spent a good deal of time observing. I also experienced very positive Variance to last that long, despite the fact that I lost. I wanted to Double that $50 to $100+ and play down to $100, or win more in multiples of $50, or lose the $50 and cash my Free Play, didn't happen.

Basically, most of the $0.01 machines are Progressives, and the $1.50 Quick Hits Max Bet is about the cheapest thing on the floor, in terms of Max Betting. There were $0.01 Quick Hits that would have been anywhere from $2.00/Max-$4.00/Max. Again, $0.02 Denomination machines with a Max Bet of $10.00! There were some Quick Hits Diamond $0.02/Denom that had a Max of $3.00, with basically the same premise as the $0.01 $1.50/Max.

Scioto Downs does not care for the $0.05-$0.25 denominations at all, between those two Denominations you have a grand total of maybe 50-75 (out of 2100) machines, and most, if not all, of them are Progressives of some kind.

The basic payout structures and availability of certain denominations (compared to others) and Max Bets on the machine leads me to one conclusion, Scioto Downs has a revolving door policy, you're either going to lose your @$$ or hit a Jackpot, either way, you're going to be out of there quickly. I would also imagine that a good bit of their Jackpots come from the $25-$100 machines during peak hours, and on such, a handpay doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot relative to the amount bet.

I did pretty well to take some time in losing $50 in spite of the way the place is structured. I was anywhere between $5.00-$90.00 prior to busting on the $50 (Cashed out my Free Play ticket) prior to leaving, never could get to that $100 mark. The Monopoly Train machine was on North Carolina Avenue up top, and I assumed (incorrectly) that there was some kind of electronic dice roll to decide how far the train goes, but I guess it's random (or they don't show the dice) because the train just went when the time came. I figured I would need a Seven for Boardwalk and an Eight for Go, and I observed one of those machines give a special pay for Go, so good time to play that one. I ended up landing the train on Go on my fifth spin which resulted in $61 including the result of the actual spin. Unfortunately, I was already down to $20 at the time it happened.

I observed machines very much like the G+ Machines that have been discussed at-length in a thread here with Progressives that must pay at a specified amount. There were four of them in the circular bank and one of them was Austrailian-Themed, another was rock-themed, and I forget the themes of the other two. Unfortunately, the highest of the $500 Progressives was at $422.xx while the highest $50 Progressive was at $37.xx, so we were nowhere near an advantage point, or even the ER on a regular $1.00 slot. There was only one gentleman playing these machines, and of course, he was playing the one where both totals were the lowest!!!

I wandered around looking at all of the Quick Hits machines, and none of them were near anything even remotely approaching an advantage point. Much to my dismay, I should also mention that every single Quick Hits machine was a Progressive! That's amazing. They have, easily, 150+ total QuickHits machines there and not one that is a Non-Progressive, in fact, almost half of the banks are Linked Progressives, which of course encourages people to play fast because they don't want any of the other players to hit, "Their," jackpot.

READ THIS BELOW IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE!!!

I decided to go over to the Game King Keno (why don't they have VP if they have Game King anyway?) but did not end up playing for a few reasons:

1.) They are either programmed NOT to let you pick numbers or choose other than ten numbers or the screens were not functioning properly. In a sample size of five, NONE of them would let you change the numbers. The, "Quick Pick," function was operational, but you could not go through and erase/add numbers individually. I understand that it makes no mathematical difference, but a person still likes to pick his numbers. Maybe they were all somehow broken, although I played $1.00 just to see if they were all broken, and the machine played correctly.

2.) I do not know how the ER of the payout structure compares to that of other machines, (No notebook, hence no Math) but I can say that these Video Keno machines, again, have the most ridiculously, absurdly, mind-boggling Top-Heavy payouts I have ever seen in my life. For example, Eight Hits did not even get you into the Triple-Digits for $1.00/bet, but then Ten Hits would be $5,000 where you usually see $1,250. My sample size for observing the Payouts was only five of the games, I had to stop before I became physically ill.

In my opinion, that payout structure is patently absurd. It's easy to have $510,000,000 in Jackpots when you are running a Jackpot or bust operation. I have never in my entire life seen such an awful Keno payout structure. In my opinion, it's deplorable. I was surprised to find that Game King even has such a structure. I also mean to call Scioto Downs and inquire as to whether the machines intentionally prevent you from picking your numbers or if something was wrong that day. If it is an intentional function of the machine, then that's just to get the player to play faster and that is greedy.

You can stop reading now, if you want to.

The ambiance there is pretty nice, and everything was kept quite clean. The security staff is the only staff I had to deal with, but they were pleasant and friendly and thanked me for offering my ID without being asked...given that they made no move towards me, I don't think they were going to ask anyway. Understandable. I'm 28, but I would be delusional if I didn't admit that I appear to be in my early-mid thirties.

The only atmospheric complaint that I have is that the music was too loud, but at least it was predominantly Classic Rock as opposed to R&B, Hip-Hop, Pop and things of that nature. Interestingly, that is what Wheeling Island tends to play, but given the clientele of both casinos, you would think it would make sense for the two to swap their choice of music. Wheeling Island should focus on Classic Rock, and Scioto R&B and Pop! The music was pervasive, though, I always like casino music at such a volume that you can hear it if you choose to listen to it, but can tune it out if you want to. You couldn't tune it out, here, you almost could but there was always a faint little hum.

Ultimately, I don't think I am going to go back, especially if I find that not being able to pick your Keno numbers is a deliberate act. If I do go back, it's going to be because I am offered more than $75 in Free Play, which I doubt. It's just not worth the drive, the Denomination selection sucks, and the majority of machines even in the $0.25-$1.00 range are some kind of Progressive. You're simply not generally going to last very long at these machines, unless of course you bring in in the neighbourhood of $500 (or more) dollars.

Go big or go home, I guess. It's a half-decent place for someone who doesn't go to the casino very often and is playing with a large bankroll, though I think Hollywood (which opened today) will be a bigger draw for that type of player, but it's really terrible for a local or casual slots player, of which I am the latter. I could just as easily see my $50 being eviscerated within ten minutes as opposed to what happened this time.

I cashed my $32 Free Play ticket and left. That covered my gas, so I ended up -$18 if you factor that, but if you count gas costs against me, then it was -$50.

Comments

FarFromVegas
FarFromVegas Oct 09, 2012

I have seen similar max bet machines at the old Casino Arizona in Scottsdale. The ones at Talking Stick were more reasonable. I was used to the $3 max bet non-progressive Quick Hits at the Tropicana in Atlantic City and wasn't about to play 6 bucks just for a shot at a similar payout!



There were 90 cent max bet Quick Hits progressives at LVH which were much more my speed. Didn't win much but didn't lose much, either.

JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ Oct 09, 2012

I'm not a slots player, but I sortof recalled that the

OH-IO racinos would have VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS,

and not regular slot machines.



This article confirms it:



Scioto Downs VLT



That may explain some of your observations.

Mission146
Mission146 Oct 09, 2012

Quote:

I have seen similar max bet machines at the old Casino Arizona in Scottsdale. The ones at Talking Stick were more reasonable. I was used to the $3 max bet non-progressive Quick Hits at the Tropicana in Atlantic City and wasn't about to play 6 bucks just for a shot at a similar payout!



There were 90 cent max bet Quick Hits progressives at LVH which were much more my speed. Didn't win much but didn't lose much, either.





I'm a little bit confused by what you mean by, "Similar payout," where the machines not graduated perfectly in relation to one another? For instance, the base pay (prior to any Progressive increase) on the $1.50 Max Bet Quick Hits was $15.00 (10x Bet) and was $30.00 (still 10x Bet) for the $3.00 Max ones. Did you just mean similar payout in relation to the amount bet, or in relation to actual money?



If you're ever out to Wheeling Island Casino, you'll love some of the Quick Hits machines there. There is a bank of $0.01/machines in which you can bet $0.30, $0.60, $0.90, $1.20 or $1.50, but this particular bank is Non-Progressive with a perfectly graduated payout structure, so you're not hurting your ER by betting less. In fact, it was on one of those machines that I hit for the 4k+change Jackpot betting Max in June. That was Eight Quick Hits during bonus games at 2x pay.



Quote:

I'm not a slots player, but I sortof recalled that the

OH-IO racinos would have VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS,

and not regular slot machines.



This article confirms it:



Scioto Downs VLT



That may explain some of your observations.





I'm afraid I don't follow what you're getting at, JohnnyQ. The machines at Wheeling Island are also VLT's in which the state requires pays between 80%-95%, but in reality, the average ER at Wheeling Island is just under 90%. The machines at Scioto Downs, pursuant to Ohio Law, must return at least 85%, and if there is a maximum return, I've not seen any documentation in that regard.



I'm mainly getting at the fact that the ER on the machines is weighted so heavily towards the top 1-2 Jackpots, and this is even more true on Video Keno than anything else (though true on both) and that's not the case (as much) at Wheeling Island, and particularly not on the Video Keno.



Could you possibly elaborate a bit more as to what you meant as I am predominantly comparing VLT's to VLT's?

Mission146
Mission146 Oct 09, 2012

FFV is quoted on top and JohnnyQ at the bottom, I forgot to insert the names and just copy/pasted and coded the quotes, sorry about that.

Mission146
Mission146 Oct 09, 2012

FARFROMVEGAS



I forgot one other thing, sorry, not used to not being able to Edit...I'm flooding my own Blog!



In any event, there is also a bank of Quick Hits at Wheeling Island in which you can play 1, 2, 5, 10 or 20 Lines at 1, 2, 3, 5 or 10 credits per line, and the bank is a Non-Progressive bank also with perfectly graduated payouts. You could bet as little as $0.01 and not hurt your ER on that machine whatsoever, but you could still play Max Lines as low as $0.20/pull!

FarFromVegas
FarFromVegas Oct 10, 2012

Quote: Mission146

I'm a little bit confused by what you mean by, "Similar payout," where the machines not graduated perfectly in relation to one another? For instance, the base pay (prior to any Progressive increase) on the $1.50 Max Bet Quick Hits was $15.00 (10x Bet) and was $30.00 (still 10x Bet) for the $3.00 Max ones. Did you just mean similar payout in relation to the amount bet, or in relation to actual money?







What I meant is I was used to 6 Quick Hits paying $150 for a $3 bet in Atlantic City, while at Casino Arizona the progressive was in the neighborhood of $150 for 6 Quick Hits, but you'd have to bet $6 to be eligible for the progressive! No thanks. Thankfully, they had better machines at their sister property, Talking Stick. They're renovating the old casino, though, so maybe better games are coming. They had a whole bank of WMS games out of commission when I was there so I couldn't find some of my favorites easily.

Mission146
Mission146 Oct 10, 2012

Quote: FarFromVegas

What I meant is I was used to 6 Quick Hits paying $150 for a $3 bet in Atlantic City, while at Casino Arizona the progressive was in the neighborhood of $150 for 6 Quick Hits, but you'd have to bet $6 to be eligible for the progressive! No thanks. Thankfully, they had better machines at their sister property, Talking Stick. They're renovating the old casino, though, so maybe better games are coming. They had a whole bank of WMS games out of commission when I was there so I couldn't find some of my favorites easily.







That's terrible, 6 Quick Hits has been 50 For 1 on every machine I have ever seen in my entire life, so you're looking at 25 FOR 1 on that machine in Arizona. That sounds like another Jackpot or bust operation, did you happen to notice if the higher payouts 7, 8, 9 or any combination were imperfectly graduated compared to other machines? Bally Technologies advertises the hit rates on their machines on the website, so I'm not sure that part is adjustable. I'm just trying to figure out if it is a poor paying machine, or if the payouts are simply higher on other Quick Hits or base pay combinations.

FarFromVegas
FarFromVegas Oct 10, 2012

I didn't play it because I won't play a progressive for less than max coin, but I told my neighbor that I generally liked those machines and she did very well on them while I played video poker, so the base may well have been higher paying.

JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ Oct 10, 2012

I just wondered if the VLT aspect is why the KENO machines worked

the way you described, ie:



Quote:

1.) They are either programmed NOT to let you pick numbers or choose other than ten numbers or the screens were not functioning properly. In a sample size of five, NONE of them would let you change the numbers. The, "Quick Pick," function was operational, but you could not go through and erase/add numbers individually. I understand that it makes no mathematical difference, but a person still likes to pick his numbers. Maybe they were all somehow broken, although I played $1.00 just to see if they were all broken, and the machine played correctly.

Mission146
Mission146 Oct 10, 2012

JohnnyQ,



I'm afraid not. The Game King Keno (and VP which Scioto doesn't have) machines at Wheeling Island or any of the West Virginia parlors all allow the player to add/remove numbers and to specifically pick his own numbers, and they are also VLT's. Scioto Downs is the first time I have ever seen one at which one could not do that.

JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ Oct 11, 2012

I'm not even sure what the distinction is between a regular

slot machine and a Video Lottery Terminal. But if the Ohio

Lottery commission is involved, then I don't think it can be

a good thing for the player. I think one of their "selling"

points last year was that they had a couple of special

scratch off games that distributed 75 % of the sales, or

only a 25 % "house advantage".

Mission146
Mission146 Oct 11, 2012

Quote: JohnnyQ[q

I'm not even sure what the distinction is between a regular

slot machine and a Video Lottery Terminal. But if the Ohio

Lottery commission is involved, then I don't think it can be

a good thing for the player. I think one of their "selling"

points last year was that they had a couple of special

scratch off games that distributed 75 % of the sales, or

only a 25 % "house advantage".







It really depends on whether it is a Class II or Class III VLT (I believe SD is Class III). Class II VLT's are unique compared to slot machines because the RNG is controlled by a centralized computer such that each individual machine does not have its own RNG. Basically, the central computer draws RNG's based on Pull Tabs or a Bingo Game and the function of the, "Slot Machine," or, "Video Poker," is simply a mechanism by which the result of the bet is displayed to you. Strictly speaking, the machine itself has nothing to do with the bet result, just its presentation.



It functions like a lottery in that there is a fixed pool of winning results and that pool is finite. An individual slot machine, on the other hand, does not have a finite payout or a prize pool whatsoever, the payouts are strictly based on the symbols, pays and RNG of the machine.



An example of this (and why, "Lottery," is a great term) is let's say you have 10000 $1.00 scratch off tickets for $10,000 worth of tickets sold. In the event that the House wants to hold 90% of the money, then the lottery will put out $9,000 in winning tickets total. When a losing ticket is removed from the pool, then there are $9,999 worth of tickets to buy and still $9,000 to win. In this sense, for every losing ticket you buy, (assuming the pool is otherwise unchanged) your odds of winning on the next go are infinitesimally greater. Lacking knowledge of what happened during that pool, however, there's really no way to use that information to your advantage. For instance, if the first $1.00 ticket bought is a $5,000 winner, then $4,000 remains in the prize pool and there are $9,999 worth of tickets left. The expected value of each $1.00 ticket is -$0.599959996. However, if you buy a ticket and lose, then buy another one, there is $4,000 in the pool, $9,998 worth of tickets, so the EV is $0.599919984, which is a little better, but far worse than the -$0.10 that the pool started with.



Remember that you're not privy to the information of the fixed pool (or all the wins and losses) though, so your EV only increases or decreases based on action you witness on the same central server, in terms of wins and losses. Again, though, you don't know where it was prior to what you witnessed. You could witness a $50,000 hit, for example, but if due to losses you didn't witness the EV is still $0.92, then you are better off than starting off playing the pool fresh.



The only REAL differences between these and slot machines is the fixed price pool and the central (rather than machine-internal) RNG, for slots.



Video Poker, however, is much different. If the fixed pool is designed to pay at 90% for every dollar bet, then that is what you are going to get regardless of what VP you play. You're basically just playing a slot machine because all the VP machine is a vessel by which the result of your Bingo Card or Pull Tab is displayed to you. There is no mathematical reason to hold any cards as you are no more likely to draw a Natural Royal Flush with a starting hand of As-Ks-Qs-Js (and holding all) than you are of dropping all the cards. If the result of the Pull Tab is the equivalent of a RF pay, then that is what you will get.



Class III



Class III machines function more as a standard slot machine. The machines all have individual internal RNG's, though there is a link to a central State system, but the only purpose of this link is so that State Lottery Agents can closely monitor the games.