Blackjack: 16 vs 10
July 23rd, 2019 at 7:41:28 AM
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Hello everyone. I play BJ thinking that the best strategy is to always hit at 16 against the dealer's 10 (no counting). Today I found Wizzard of odds Blackjack Hand Calculator tool and I found that the best strategy is to stand at 16 if it is with more than 2 cards that do not include A.
Where am I wrong?
p.s. Sorry for my english, I use google translate for this post.
Where am I wrong?
p.s. Sorry for my english, I use google translate for this post.
July 23rd, 2019 at 8:36:33 AM
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The math shows you are wrong. You can lay out a few thousand hands or you can accept the math as has been worked out over hundreds of billions of hands. Thanks to the work of many dedicated researchers, we can easily find the expected value of any and every combination of cards.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
July 23rd, 2019 at 8:58:14 AM
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As a very general rule, if your multicard 16 has a "6' in it is generally better to Hit.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
July 23rd, 2019 at 9:05:35 AM
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If standing on hard 16 versus dealer 10 is what one should do with more than 2 cards this has in a way to do with tracking or counting then because otherwise it wouldn't make any difference whether the hard 16 landed with two cards or ten.
However another question is - and again just playing basic strategy - player two card hard 12 against dealer 2 or 3 up. Hit once only, or depending on what card lands that doesn't bust or create a pat hand, hit again? The answer to this relates to the above too in a way.
However another question is - and again just playing basic strategy - player two card hard 12 against dealer 2 or 3 up. Hit once only, or depending on what card lands that doesn't bust or create a pat hand, hit again? The answer to this relates to the above too in a way.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
July 23rd, 2019 at 10:41:17 AM
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So the Wizzard of odds Blackjack Hand Calculator tool is wrong. Thank you all for replying.
July 23rd, 2019 at 10:43:50 AM
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Quote: GatosSo the Wizzard of odds Blackjack Hand Calculator tool is wrong. Thank you all for replying.
16 vs T is such a close decision that the composition of the hand and other hands at the table can tip the decision. One rule of thumb is to not hit a 16 into a T if you hand contains any 4 or 5.
Another interesting composition dependent hand is 12 vs 4. Answer is different for 10 and deuce vs 9 and 3 or 8 and 4, etc.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
July 23rd, 2019 at 11:02:00 AM
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Am I wrong to understand that you confuse best strategy with basic strategy?
And that your responders deliberately confuse you further by confusing perfect with relevantly optimal strategy?
If the difference in EV is so small that you have to delve into the composition of the exposed cards, then for all practical purposes you may confidently opt for whatever action you prefer.
And that your responders deliberately confuse you further by confusing perfect with relevantly optimal strategy?
If the difference in EV is so small that you have to delve into the composition of the exposed cards, then for all practical purposes you may confidently opt for whatever action you prefer.
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
July 23rd, 2019 at 11:43:25 AM
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Quote: kubikulannAm I wrong to understand that you confuse best strategy with basic strategy?
When you don't counting, the best strategy isn't the basic strategy? I tried everything but I can not show you my screenshots even though I have experience in forums. I can not even put the link of Wizzard of odds Blackjack Hand Calculator tool. Βut you can try it yourself. I was wrong about the A at op. Blackjack Hand Calculator tool says that sometimes the suggested action is stand even if included Α in the multicard 16.
Example (6 decks):
Dealer 10
Player 9 3 2 A A
Stand -0.573075
Hit -0.574042
July 23rd, 2019 at 11:52:21 AM
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Quote: unJon16 vs T is such a close decision that the composition of the hand and other hands at the table can tip the decision. One rule of thumb is to not hit a 16 into a T if you hand contains any 4 or 5.
Ιn accordance with the Wizzard of odds Blackjack Hand Calculator tool, as I have shown with the example above, the optimal movement for 16 against dealers 10 is to stand if it is multicard 16 even if it is not included 4 or 5.
July 23rd, 2019 at 11:57:12 AM
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No.Quote: GatosWhen you don't counting, the best strategy isn't the basic strategy?
Basic does not take into account the composition of hands (except for aces) and the other exposed cards. Just your total and the dealer’s card.
Wizards calculator goes further, it is not basic.
If you can, Surrender a dealt 16 against a 10.
-0.5 is better than -0.57
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
July 23rd, 2019 at 12:04:27 PM
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Quote: GatosΙn accordance with the Wizzard of odds Blackjack Hand Calculator tool, as I have shown with the example above, the optimal movement for 16 against dealers 10 is to stand if it is multicard 16 even if it is not included 4 or 5.
Understood. It’s a rule of thumb. There are multicard 16s where you hit also. Try:
6, 8, 2 v T
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
July 23rd, 2019 at 12:23:44 PM
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Quote: kubikulannNo.
Basic does not take into account the composition of hands (except for aces) and the other exposed cards. Just your total and the dealer’s card.
Wizards calculator goes further, it is not basic.
If you can, Surrender a dealt 16 against a 10.
-0.5 is better than -0.57
I play in Europe (Greece) and I can not surrender.
That's the game I play:
6 decks (Continuous Shuffle Machine)
Blackjack pays 3 to 2
Dealer does not peak for BJ
Dealer stands on soft 17
Double down any two cards
Split 2s through 10s a maximum of 2 times to make 3 hands
Split aces a maximum of 1 time to make 2 hands
Draw to split aces not allowed
Double after split allowed
Surrender not allowed
So, the casino edge can be reduced further even without counting if you make some changes to the basic depending on the composition of your hand. Of course I guess the difference in edge it will be microscopic and maybe it's not worth diving in it.
July 23rd, 2019 at 12:31:39 PM
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If you are going to take the time to learn composition dependent basic strategy, why not go the extra distance and start learning an expandable count? KISS comes to mind. Stat simple and add more cards when you feel comfortable.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
July 23rd, 2019 at 12:34:57 PM
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Quote: unJonUnderstood. It’s a rule of thumb. There are multicard 16s where you hit also. Try:
6, 8, 2 v T
Yes, that's why I start this topic, to figure out what it depends on if you should to stand or hit. Until today I thought that if you did not count, the basic strategy is the best strategy in any circumstances.
July 23rd, 2019 at 12:37:13 PM
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Quote: GatosYes, that's why I start this topic, to figure out what it depends on if you should to stand or hit. Until today I thought that if you did not count, the basic strategy is the best strategy in any circumstances.
This is “counting” in a rudimentary way. It’s counting limited to the cards in your hand (or other strangle cards at the table).
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
July 23rd, 2019 at 12:37:27 PM
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OP's playing a continuous shuffle machine, so there is no point in counting.
Can't you find a casino where the shuffle is not continuous? I would never play with such a machine, were I counting or not (because there is no way to even track cards with an informal count, nor is there any chance of a positive count or long term card flow dependent streak because everything changes up with each hand).
And unJon yes exactly - this is what I said, <<If standing on hard 16 versus dealer 10 is what one should do with more than 2 cards this has in a way to do with tracking or counting then because otherwise it wouldn't make any difference whether the hard 16 landed with two cards or ten.>>
Anyway, my Q was: and again just playing basic strategy - player two card hard 12 against dealer 2 or 3 up. Hit once only, or depending on what card lands that doesn't bust or create a pat hand, hit again? The answer to this relates to the above too in a way. I try to play DD with dealer stand soft 17, but sometimes I am stuck with DD dealer hit soft 17 too. DS allowed.
Can't you find a casino where the shuffle is not continuous? I would never play with such a machine, were I counting or not (because there is no way to even track cards with an informal count, nor is there any chance of a positive count or long term card flow dependent streak because everything changes up with each hand).
And unJon yes exactly - this is what I said, <<If standing on hard 16 versus dealer 10 is what one should do with more than 2 cards this has in a way to do with tracking or counting then because otherwise it wouldn't make any difference whether the hard 16 landed with two cards or ten.>>
Anyway, my Q was: and again just playing basic strategy - player two card hard 12 against dealer 2 or 3 up. Hit once only, or depending on what card lands that doesn't bust or create a pat hand, hit again? The answer to this relates to the above too in a way. I try to play DD with dealer stand soft 17, but sometimes I am stuck with DD dealer hit soft 17 too. DS allowed.
Last edited by: MDawg on Jul 23, 2019
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
July 23rd, 2019 at 12:49:11 PM
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Quote: billryanIf you are going to take the time to learn composition dependent basic strategy, why not go the extra distance and start learning an expandable count? KISS comes to mind. Stat simple and add more cards when you feel comfortable.
Ιn Greece, as well as all over the Europe, we have Continuous Shuffle Machines. I'm poker pro but I like to play BJ as I'm in waiting list for poker room, so I'm looking for how to reduce house edge without counting.
July 23rd, 2019 at 12:58:23 PM
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lt seems so, so desperate,
to play against a continuous shuffle machine.
As far as BJ, I just wouldn't even do it.
to play against a continuous shuffle machine.
As far as BJ, I just wouldn't even do it.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
July 23rd, 2019 at 12:58:30 PM
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Quote: MDawgCan't you find a casino where the shuffle is not continuous?
Not in Greece.
July 23rd, 2019 at 1:07:32 PM
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Quote: MDawglt seems so, so desperate,
to play against a continuous shuffle machine.
As far as BJ, I just wouldn't even do it.
I don't play BJ with out counting and with CSM for winning, I'm poker pro, I understand about house edge. I play for fun when I'm in poker room waiting list and as I said, simply I'm looking for how to minimize the casino's edge.
July 23rd, 2019 at 1:10:21 PM
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That's one of the ways "poker pros" go broke, playing games they don't understand just for the thrill of it, or to pass the time.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
July 23rd, 2019 at 1:31:29 PM
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I found that for the game I play the composition dependent basic strategy reduces the casino's edge only for 0.0031% compared with total dependent basic strategy, so for someone like me who playing for fun definitely not worth it.
Last edited by: Gatos on Jul 23, 2019
July 23rd, 2019 at 3:49:56 PM
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I hope you enjoy playing BJ for fun and am guessing you know the basic strategy. In the example you've given if you know nothing about how your 16 is made up, then it's marginally better to hit. However, say with 6 decks, if you consider the cards you have then sometimes you should stand.
There are other hands, e.g. 10 2 vs 4 where it is very close to stand.
Playing BJ using basic strategy can get boring after a while, so one of the ways you can add some fun is guessing which way to play some of the close decisions. With a CSM, if you aren't counting, you can sometimes get a feel for whether large cards have gone or not.
There are other hands, e.g. 10 2 vs 4 where it is very close to stand.
Playing BJ using basic strategy can get boring after a while, so one of the ways you can add some fun is guessing which way to play some of the close decisions. With a CSM, if you aren't counting, you can sometimes get a feel for whether large cards have gone or not.
July 23rd, 2019 at 7:26:24 PM
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Continuous Shuffle Machines (CSM) are the nightmare of Advantage Players (AP), but if you play without counting, I remember I read somewhere on the Wizard’s site that CSM is actually better for the players.
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
July 23rd, 2019 at 7:52:51 PM
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Quote: GatosI found that for the game I play the composition dependent basic strategy reduces the casino's edge only for 0.0031% compared with total dependent basic strategy, so for someone like me who playing for fun definitely not worth it.
0.0031% is nothing to sneeze at.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
July 23rd, 2019 at 8:12:41 PM
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Yes. Search for “cut card effect.” I have qualms that the effect is fully caused by the cut card, but it is a real effect.Quote: kubikulannContinuous Shuffle Machines (CSM) are the nightmare of Advantage Players (AP), but if you play without counting, I remember I read somewhere on the Wizard’s site that CSM is actually better for the players.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
July 23rd, 2019 at 10:46:12 PM
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I am no pro or math expert.
I read few web sites about your question. You may find it helpful .
Blackjackinfo.com Ken Smith blog 16 v T: RSWTF?!
Discount gambling. Stephen How Counting Blacjack CSM
I read few web sites about your question. You may find it helpful .
Blackjackinfo.com Ken Smith blog 16 v T: RSWTF?!
Discount gambling. Stephen How Counting Blacjack CSM
July 24th, 2019 at 7:22:43 AM
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correct. Better to stick to winnable games like baccarat. ;-)Quote: MDawgThat's one of the ways "poker pros" go broke, playing games they don't understand just for the thrill of it, or to pass the time.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
