New Blackjack Variant

I came across a new version of blackjack that I found quite interesting:

The game plays as standard blackjack; however after the dealer's upcard is revealed, the dealer puts an additional card below his hand horizontally. The first player can elect to use the horizontal card or play his hand traditionally. If he chooses to use the horizontal card, the dealer will deal the next card from the shoe horizontally. Once again the player can choose to take that card or play traditional blackjack. Once all players had the option of playing their hand, the dealer discards the horizontal card and plays his hand.

I am wondering what the house advantage is when the player can essentially see a card he can choose to take or not. To clarify he can still hit and take the next card from the shoe, but he could also take the horizontal card at anytime. For example a player has a hard 18 and the horizontal card is a 3, he can double down and decide to take the 3. Another example is if the player has 12 and the horizontal card is a 10, he can elect to stand or hit by taking the next card from the shoe.

The push 22 rule is also in effect. Blackjacks pay 3 to 2.

I hope I made this post clear and would love feedback and to find out if this game is sincerely playable.

Look forward to the math and your comments on this game!

Can you tell us what the new variant is called, and where you saw it, please?

I'm very interested in playing this. I'd also like some info on the math. Chances are, it's developed by Switch, who owns the IP on the push 22 rule, but it's possible someone "borrowed " it. Is it Fortune Cat, maybe?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Can you tell us what the new variant is called, and where you saw it, please?

I'm very interested in playing this. I'd also like some info on the math. Chances are, it's developed by Switch, who owns the IP on the push 22 rule, but it's possible someone "borrowed " it. Is it Fortune Cat, maybe?

Hi beachbumbabs,

I am quite sure it is not developed by Switch. Maybe it is from SG, as they have the right to use the push 22 rule.
If it is not from SG, them who knows?

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but if you have a few friends playing at the table, with the "big" player sitting in seat six, can't they work together to guarantee (to the best of their ability) that the big player in seat six gets the card they are always looking for (or at least gets several chances to do so).

For example, player in seat six is playing black chips wile the others are playing table min. Player in seat six has a 12 and the horizontal card is a 9. First few players draw from the deck or stand in order to give the big player the card he/she needs. If the horizontal card is not what the big player needs, the first few players take the horizontal card until one the player in seat six needs shows up....

What if you're not part of this crew play and Mr Blackchip offers you money to not take the card?

Quote: mrsuit31

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but if you have a few friends playing at the table, with the "big" player sitting in seat six, can't they work together to guarantee (to the best of their ability) that the big player in seat six gets the card they are always looking for (or at least gets several chances to do so).

For example, player in seat six is playing black chips wile the others are playing table min. Player in seat six has a 12 and the horizontal card is a 9. First few players draw from the deck or stand in order to give the big player the card he/she needs. If the horizontal card is not what the big player needs, the first few players take the horizontal card until one the player in seat six needs shows up....

I don't know the Rules of this game, but I think if the up-card that offer to seat-1, will not be offer to seat-2, if seat-1 doesn't want it.

Quote: MrCasinoGames

I don't know the Rules of this game, but I think if the up-card that offer to seat-1, will not be offer to seat-2, if seat-1 doesn't want it.

I'd definitely like to know the detailed rules of the game and the math/collusion analysis thereafter....

It's probably easier to assume that at each stage you get a choice of the upcard or downcard and once you've taken a card or not the upcard is replaced. Otherwise, for instance with a total of 8 and an upcard of 3, you might as well hit since the 3 would still be there. Under that suggestion you get a choice of a new random card (face up) or random card (face down) at each stage.

Another way (which I prefer) might be that first player has the chance to use the ucpard once without replacement but the next player will get a different upcard. Within this it may have to be the first card drawn or subsequently ignored, or remains available at any stage within the player's turn. With the latter, which is more interesting, I can see that perhaps you might split pairs just in case the upcard turns to be useful (e.g. 7 7 vs 8 with an Ace or 3 face up). Also, say with a 3 face-up, you'd hit all 12s since any total of 18-14 can be improved by taking the 3, so you have two chances to make 21 20 or 19. (You might even hit 13s!)

Interesting concept.

I hope you and Stephen are correct in regard to the horizontal card's replacement after each player's decision. However, that sounds like a procedural nightmare....

Quote: mrsuit31

I hope you and Stephen are correct in regard to the horizontal card's replacement after each player's decision. However, that sounds like a procedural nightmare....

Our favorite variation of OFTM had a very similar mechanism, except the draw card was facedown, so the collusion aspect was essentially nonexistent.

The mechanics are very easy. If a player takes one of the dealer's 2 cards, the card they took is simply replaced from the top of the shoe. Once all players have acted, the dealer flips the 2 cards left and burns the lower one.

However, with the available card face up, I can see a collision opportunity as folks have described above. But you're still trying to overcome a -6.91 disadvantage on top of regular HE for the push 22 rule alone. So perhaps collusion won't help enough.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Our favorite variation of OFTM had a very similar mechanism, except the draw card was facedown, so the collusion aspect was essentially nonexistent.

The mechanics are very easy. If a player takes one of the dealer's 2 cards, the card they took is simply replaced from the top of the shoe. Once all players have acted, the dealer flips the 2 cards left and burns the lower one.

However, with the available card face up, I can see a collision opportunity as folks have described above. But you're still trying to overcome a -6.91 disadvantage on top of regular HE for the push 22 rule alone. So perhaps collusion won't help enough.

Once we get the actual rules, I'll be curious to hear what the math guys have to say on the subject. According to the OP it seems players can also double and take that card etc.....

As far as the mechanics go, I see how yours is easy in that version of OFTM. However, again if I'm understanding this game correctly and the rules are as Charlie and Stephen think they may be, each round the horizontal card needs to be placed below the dealer cards, then if it is taken by player 1, it needs to be replaced, then if it isn't taken by player 1, it need to be burnt and a new one needs to be put in its place for player 2, then if taken by player 2 it needs to be replaced, then if not taken by player 2 it needs to be burnt and replaced for the next player and so on....

I guess its probably a good idea to stop trying to brainstorm without knowing the actual rules.... I am also not clear on the question of whether a player can opt for the first horizontal card, then can take the next horizontal card once the first one is replaced or if you are limited to a single horizontal card each decision round...

Believe it or not, this game was thought up in a dream I had a week ago. I wrote down everything I could remember after I woke up and there it was lol. I tried it with a few friends and they found it interesting!

That's what I wondered also. It's not necessarily the collusion that came to mind with this game, but the anger that could erupt if someone decided to take a horizontal card another player could of needed. Keep in mind the horizontal card is replaced once it's been used. So maybe it's the same as taking another players double down card? Would love to see this in action though.

Quote: bikecards52

Believe it or not, this game was thought up in a dream I had a week ago. I wrote down everything I could remember after I woke up and there it was lol. I tried it with a few friends and they found it interesting!

So this is just a Dream Game?

Anyway I do have a New Blackjack Variant (Top-Draw Blackjack® ©2010) that is not a Dream Game.
I will Post it in this Forum Tomorrow, for members to comment on.

P.S. It does allow you to use the Top-card of the deck.

For now it is, I would like to see what the house advantage for this game calculated by the math wizards to see if this game could have a chance to become a reality.

The horizontal card is automatically replaced once a player elects to use it. And yes the player can take as many horizontal cards as he chooses (example the player has a hard 17 and the horizontal card is an ace. The player can take the ace--the next horizontal card comes out and is a deuce, the player can take that as well)

I kinda wondered if this game already existed or not. I am interested in learning about your variation!

Quote: bikecards52

I came across a new version of blackjack that I found quite interesting:

The game plays as standard blackjack; however after the dealer's upcard is revealed, the dealer puts an additional card below his hand horizontally. The first player can elect to use the horizontal card or play his hand traditionally. If he chooses to use the horizontal card, the dealer will deal the next card from the shoe horizontally. Once again the player can choose to take that card or play traditional blackjack. Once all players had the option of playing their hand, the dealer discards the horizontal card and plays his hand.

I am wondering what the house advantage is when the player can essentially see a card he can choose to take or not. To clarify he can still hit and take the next card from the shoe, but he could also take the horizontal card at anytime. For example a player has a hard 18 and the horizontal card is a 3, he can double down and decide to take the 3. Another example is if the player has 12 and the horizontal card is a 10, he can elect to stand or hit by taking the next card from the shoe.

The push 22 rule is also in effect. Blackjacks pay 3 to 2.

I hope I made this post clear and would love feedback and to find out if this game is sincerely playable.

Look forward to the math and your comments on this game!

I have been dealing your game to myself, and I really like your new rule.

To analyze the rule, I simplified the game by not allowing double-downs, splits, and regular hitting. The infinite-deck gives a player edge of 16.94%, which means the horizontal card gives the player a huge advantage.

If Seat 1 doesn't want the horizontal card, it is available for Seat 2 to take and so forth. I wonder how different the game would play if the horizontal card was changed after each seat declines it. I am starting to think this is a better game for online casinos where it's only one player against the dealer.

I'm actually surprised the player edge is that high! Would love to see the Wizard of Odds analyze this to verify the data. I would think the advantage wouldn't be too far from Blackjack Switch, since in that game you can change your starting hands around. There are a lot of instances though where the horizontal card won't benefit the player at all (example the player having a 12 and the horizontal card being a K)

On 3/4 you said:

Quote: bikecards52

I came across a new version of blackjack that I found quite interesting: (snip)

On 3/5, you revealed:

Quote: bikecards52

Believe it or not, this game was thought up in a dream I had a week ago. I wrote down everything I could remember after I woke up and there it was lol. I tried it with a few friends and they found it interesting!

I don't wish to be rude, but you wasted our time by implying that this BJ variant was a real casino game rather than just some imaginary variation that you "dreamed" up.

There is no justification for being deceptive so as to get the Wizard or math geeks in the forum to do free math analyses for you on game rule variants. Most game developers do their own math and/or pay math geeks to do it for them. IMO, you owe Chesterdog and others here an apology.

I almost feel as though saying you’ve actually seen a game and asking for help on the math, and then saying you made the whole thing up .. should be a rule violation.

Quote: michael99000

I almost feel as though saying you’ve actually seen a game and asking for help on the math, and then saying you made the whole thing up .. should be a rule violation.

Too true, off with his head!

Quote: MrCasinoGames

So this is just a Dream Game?

Anyway I do have a New Blackjack Variant (Top-Draw Blackjack® ©2010) that is not a Dream Game.
I will Post it in this Forum Tomorrow, for members to comment on.

P.S. It does allow you to use the Top-card of the deck.

Here is a link to Top-Draw Blackjack® ©2010: http://bit.ly/2TieakC

P.S. A New Top-Draw Blackjack® is now Available with Math-report.