Niu Niu
I have to ask you where do you think you are gaining an advantage over the casino? I am assuming you are using AP as advantage player, that is actually a player that CAN gain an advantage over a casino, not just someone trying to get an advantage over the casino.
Niu niu is a terrible game for a player, you can't get an edge.
What is it that makes you think this game can be beaten?
I calculated. EV per day should be around 300 USD. different casinos different EV. some was up to 1000 USD, supposedly.
So despite playing very long term, like 1 year now, why I am still losing by a great margin?
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyI have been puzzling over how casinos can offer a “fair” game like Niu Niu, one without odds in favor of the house, and still generate profit. I think the answer may be a combination of limited player bankrolls, undisciplined play, and game variance.
Quote: niuniukingI found a new game. Niu Niu variant. 5 % tax on all hand but they open three cards of your own to let you decide whether you want to double or not.
I wonder what's the BS and casino or player hold
I have a program that can calculate all the hand combinations of NIU NIU for any number of player known cards vs any any number of dealer known cards. For instance, your case is 3 player known cards vs 0 dealer known card, from there the program can calculate the ev and then we can figure out whether we double the betting or not.......
Quote: niuniukingIt seems they cheat somehow. I lost at 7 different casinos ranging from 50 to 20 units.
I heard the casino table can detect the card sequence when dealer shuffle the cards and control the dice.....just rumour I guess.
Quote: niuniukingThen we will have to know for a few key hands. Two pictures plus a Spade 4 should you double? Two cards total nine or 8 third card picture should you double? 9&8 third card picture should you double? If you get a Spade King the other two lousy cards how lousy then you should not double? If two tens third card is 9or 8 should you double?
I think you should double the betting if ev >0 with 3 known player cards. Or any idea ?
The question is what 3 cards combination will give +ve ev ? I think the program can easily find out those combinations ???
What are the rules where you lost? The odds don't matter as long as the players win and lose at the same rate if the dealer gets the same hand. There is only a betting decision to make, after that it's basically a coin toss, completely even game except house takes all on winning niu7 but only paid half on losing niu7. I also added a bonus side bet for certain hands, that's also going great.
Quote: StuBodThere is always a house edge, most casinos I know pay and take at the same rate so it looks like theirs no edge but the player loses all bets when getting less than king high. I have done it in my casino where all hands play against the dealer individually, highest hand wins, no ties, highest card works spades, hearts, clubs, diamonds. The house edge comes in when player wins with niu7 he gets paid 1-2. Should be 2.54% from my math.
What are the rules where you lost? The odds don't matter as long as the players win and lose at the same rate if the dealer gets the same hand. There is only a betting decision to make, after that it's basically a coin toss, completely even game except house takes all on winning niu7 but only paid half on losing niu7. I also added a bonus side bet for certain hands, that's also going great.
Quote: StuBodThere is always a house edge, most casinos I know pay and take at the same rate so it looks like theirs no edge but the player loses all bets when getting less than king high. I have done it in my casino where all hands play against the dealer individually, highest hand wins, no ties, highest card works spades, hearts, clubs, diamonds. The house edge comes in when player wins with niu7 he gets paid 1-2. Should be 2.54% from my math.
What are the rules where you lost? The odds don't matter as long as the players win and lose at the same rate if the dealer gets the same hand. There is only a betting decision to make, after that it's basically a coin toss, completely even game except house takes all on winning niu7 but only paid half on losing niu7. I also added a bonus side bet for certain hands, that's also going great.
There are so many version of NIU NIU with different rules, make sure we discuss the same version to avoid any confusion. LOL
Quote: niuniukingsho so your program was it able to calculate the EV for the listed key cards above?
The program is used to calculate ev with a known card before betting.....
With a minor changes, it should be able to do what you mentioned above.
I have introduced the game to my casino, I pay half on winning niu7 for player, all other hands are biggest wins. That gives a house edge of 2.54% on the ante. You can pay any odds on the double bet as long as the player wins and loses at the same rate.
Another way is where the player loses both bets when he gets less than king high, no matter what the dealer has. I work this out to be around 2.46% but on both bets so works out better for the house. Just depends on how much money you want to take before killing the game. I also have bonus bet which holds 5%, I can send you the figures if you want.
Also where is your casino?
Quote: StuBodHi.
I have introduced the game to my casino, I pay half on winning niu7 for player, all other hands are biggest wins. That gives a house edge of 2.54% on the ante. You can pay any odds on the double bet as long as the player wins and loses at the same rate.
Another way is where the player loses both bets when he gets less than king high, no matter what the dealer has. I work this out to be around 2.46% but on both bets so works out better for the house. Just depends on how much money you want to take before killing the game. I also have bonus bet which holds 5%, I can send you the figures if you want.
Half payment for winning NIU 7, my calculated house edge is -5.0193%. See attached image.
https://ibb.co/0M37h4V
I don't have the figures I front of me but if I remember correctly the player gets Queen high or less 23% of the time but you must take into account that most of those hands would be lost anyway by the player so player gets Queen high 7.8% of the time and would have won those hands about 21% of the times, so 21% of 7.8% is about 1.46%. Now you do that for all the hands, jack high down, obviously as you get lower, the% drops drastically because taking a players 6 high basically costs him nothing as he has very little chance of winning anyway. Add the results up and you get to 2.46%. I did notice yesterday though that I hadn't taken into account that when the player has Queen high, he would also have won half of those hands against a dealer Queen high. The same goes for all the hands. Adding the extra I came to 4.34% I think. Maybe wizard could help me out with this, he is the guy.
I am surveillance manager at marina casino in Lusaka, actually working for Quintinsa, the guy that started this thread. I used wizard figures for the hands frequency and figured out the rest, the long way, I am sure wizard just writes a formula but I have to use my thumbs. Haha
Thanks for the assistance, always happy to meet fellow number geeks.
I don't know if I explained my game fully, when player wins niu7 he gets 1-2 for ante and 2-1 for double bet. When he loses to niu7 the house takes the ante bet and 2-1 for player double bet. I don't have the figures in front of me but if my memory serves me, I think player wins niu7 about 20% of the time and the house keeps half an ante bet, so in 100 hand the house will take about 2.5 bets, making an edge of 2.5%. I have the exact figures at work, I'll check later. I would like your opinion on my calculation of how often player wins with niu7 as thats my main worry, not always seeing it done that often on live games but I also know you need to watch millions of hands.
Quote: StuBodHi sho88.
Thanks for the assistance, always happy to meet fellow number geeks.
I don't know if I explained my game fully, when player wins niu7 he gets 1-2 for ante and 2-1 for double bet. When he loses to niu7 the house takes the ante bet and 2-1 for player double bet. I don't have the figures in front of me but if my memory serves me, I think player wins niu7 about 20% of the time and the house keeps half an ante bet, so in 100 hand the house will take about 2.5 bets, making an edge of 2.5%. I have the exact figures at work, I'll check later. I would like your opinion on my calculation of how often player wins with niu7 as thats my main worry, not always seeing it done that often on live games but I also know you need to watch millions of hands.
Player wins with NIU 7 about 5.02% of the time.
Thanks for the figures.
I just want to ask, you say for no niu it's 33.557% but king high and below starts from 33.019%. Where is the other 0.535%?
Also, when working out how often each hand comes up using your figures I get:
King high 8.346%
Queen high 7.808%
Jack high 7.808%
10 high 3.024%
And getting smaller all the way. My question is should the jack and Queen be the same amount? Wouldn't the king be the same too
then? Seems to me the jack would be lower than it shows.
Quote: WizardQuote: tomchina123the cheating of niuniu is like this: The camera reads the cards, then the casino controls the dice to determine which box to deal the card first. one way to check if cheating, is to check if the dice is magnetic.
Time for the next step -- gather evidence.
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In Cambodia, NIU NIU ,there are Super betting options.Super bet without the Ultimate Niu Niu rule.ONE DECK. Can anyone help calculate their probabilities?
WIN/WINNING HAND/PAYS/PROBABILITY/RETURN
Yes/Niu Niu/9.5/0.071096/0.202624
Yes/Niu 9/8.55/？/？
Yes/Niu 8/7.6/？/？
Yes/Niu 7/6.65/？/？
Yes/Niu 6/5.7/？/？
Yes/Niu 5/4.75/？/？
Yes/Niu 4/3.8/？/？
Yes/Niu 3/2.85/？/？
Yes/Niu 2/1.9/？/？
Yes/Niu 1/0.95/？/？
Yes/No Niu/0.95/0.056418/0.053597
Tie/Any/0/0.000000/0.000000
No/No Niu/-1/0.056418/-0.056418
No/Niu 1/-1/？/？
No/Niu 2/-2/？/？
No/Niu 3/-3/？/？
No/Niu 4/-4/？/？
No/Niu 5/-5/？/？
No/Niu 6/-6/？/？
No/Niu 7/-7/？/？
No/Niu 8/-8/？/？
No/Niu 9/-9/？/？
No/Niu Niu/-10/0.071096
Total PROBABILITY：1
ths.
Quote: WizardOkay, you guys can be the first in the world to see the math of Niu Niu. Please click the link.
A dilemma arises when defining the house edge of the Double bet. It is easy to say what the numerator is, an expected loss of 3.99% of a unit. However, what should be the denominator? The least possible loss of one unit, the maximum possible loss of five units, or perhaps the average amount that changes hands, which is 1.56 units. I welcome thoughts on that.
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In Cambodia, NIU NIU ,there are Super betting options.Super bet without the Ultimate Niu Niu rule.ONE DECK. Can anyone help calculate their probabilities?
WIN/WINNING HAND/PAYS/PROBABILITY/RETURN
Yes/Niu Niu/9.5/0.071096/0.202624
Yes/Niu 9/8.55/？/？
Yes/Niu 8/7.6/？/？
Yes/Niu 7/6.65/？/？
Yes/Niu 6/5.7/？/？
Yes/Niu 5/4.75/？/？
Yes/Niu 4/3.8/？/？
Yes/Niu 3/2.85/？/？
Yes/Niu 2/1.9/？/？
Yes/Niu 1/0.95/？/？
Yes/No Niu/0.95/0.056418/0.053597
Tie/Any/0/0.000000/0.000000
No/No Niu/-1/0.056418/-0.056418
No/Niu 1/-1/？/？
No/Niu 2/-2/？/？
No/Niu 3/-3/？/？
No/Niu 4/-4/？/？
No/Niu 5/-5/？/？
No/Niu 6/-6/？/？
No/Niu 7/-7/？/？
No/Niu 8/-8/？/？
No/Niu 9/-9/？/？
No/Niu Niu/-10/0.071096
Total PROBABILITY：1
ths.
Quote: ssho88Quote: StuBodHi.
I have introduced the game to my casino, I pay half on winning niu7 for player, all other hands are biggest wins. That gives a house edge of 2.54% on the ante. You can pay any odds on the double bet as long as the player wins and loses at the same rate.
Another way is where the player loses both bets when he gets less than king high, no matter what the dealer has. I work this out to be around 2.46% but on both bets so works out better for the house. Just depends on how much money you want to take before killing the game. I also have bonus bet which holds 5%, I can send you the figures if you want.
Half payment for winning NIU 7, my calculated house edge is -5.0193%. See attached image.
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Do you mean that the game he is proposing has a negative house edge ?
I heard about the 50% pays when player win with 7 Niu Niu but looks like the house edge is not good.
What is the best way to propose Niu Niu game without commission ?
I heard also about a rule that when player and dealer have the same high hand we don't compare the color and the dealer win automatically expect when the high card is a King.
I have no clue how to calculate the house edge on this ?
I need some help guys.
My math is correct. The speed of the game is faster than super niuniu and the casino does not have the problem of a player having to hold enough money to pay the biggest dealer win, when a player runs low on money he can't play. If he does play and the dealer gets a niuniu, in Zambia the house must write off the players loss since he can't pay it.
This has affected the house edge greatly for casinos that use super niuniu.
I don't have the figures in front of me right now but you can calculate it quite easily. Can I ask why this question?
2. xx% jackpot ultimate niu niu + niu niu
3. 1 pay xx 9 points and below
4. 1 pay xx 4 of a kind
5. 1 pay xx ultimate niu niu
Quote: andrew888administrator, are you still on this Niu Niu? i have a math problem and i need your help, what is the probability of both player and house having 5 pictures?( doesn't matter player wins or lose ) and an outcome of player and house having 5 pictures and Niu Niu? ( doesn't matter if the 5 cards is on the player side or the house )
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If by pictures you mean J,Q,K, the odds of being dealt five cards and getting five pictures is 0.000304737 or 0.0304737%
The odds of a player and dealer both being dealt 5 pictures on the same deal is 4.17193E-09.
what a 5 pictures and Niu-Niu combination ?
Quote: tomchina123finally, i got time to reply this again after my ok success in this city being an Ap.
on, August 20th, 2019 at 9:14:30 PM, i made some numbers without full consideration of special niu. now it is full.
thanks for Miplet of this helpfi; table-making link: http://miplet.net/table/
NIUNIU-by tomchina123胡歌Tom TYPE permutation PROB. notes 3 high 33600 0.01077% 4 high 138240 0.04433% 5 high 230400 0.07388% 6 high 967680 0.31028% 7 high 2691840 0.86311% 8 high 4398720 1.41041% 9 high 6869760 2.20273% 10 high 10037760 3.21852% J high 18209280 5.83864% Q high 26380800 8.45877% K high 34552320 11.07889% niu 1 20554560 6.59064% niu 2 20168640 6.46689% niu 3 20554560 6.59064% niu 4 20168640 6.46689% niu 5 21288960 6.82612% niu 6 20168640 6.46689% niu 7 20554560 6.59064% niu 8 20168640 6.46689% niu 9 20554560 6.59064% niu niu 22917120 7.34817% 5 pictures 92160 0.02955% JQKKK,JJQQK 4 of a kind(maybe also 5 pictures) 72000 0.02309% 88885,JJJJQ 5 small niu(maybe also 4 of a kind) 101760 0.03263% AA233,AAAA6 total 311875200 100.00000%
for 5 pictures & 4 of a kind(eg: JJJJQ), we usually take it as 4 of a kind, because it is higher rank than 5 pictures(if dealer is QQQKK),
4 of a kind & 5 small cards(eg: 11112), we usually take it as 5 small cards, because it is higher rank than 4 of a kind(if dealer is 22228),
addtionally, some may want to know details of above:
NIUNIU-one deck by tomchina123胡歌Tom TYPE permutation PROB. notes 3 high 33600 0.0108% 4 high 138240 0.0443% 5 high 230400 0.0739% 6 high 967680 0.3103% 7 high 2691840 0.8631% 8 high 4398720 1.4104% 9 high 6869760 2.2027% 10 high 10037760 3.2185% J high 18209280 5.8386% Q high 26380800 8.4588% K high 34552320 11.0789% niu 1 20554560 6.5906% niu 2 20168640 6.4669% niu 3 20554560 6.5906% niu 4 20168640 6.4669% niu 5 21288960 6.8261% niu 6 20168640 6.4669% niu 7 20554560 6.5906% niu 8 20168640 6.4669% niu 9 20554560 6.5906% niu niu 22917120 7.3482% 5 pictures only (no 4 of a kind) 92160 0.0296% JQKKK 4 of a kind only (no 5 small niu) 69120 0.0222% 88885 5 small niu 98880 0.0317% AA233 5 pictures & 4 of a kind 2880 0.0009% JJJJQ 4 of a kind & 5 small niu 2880 0.0009% AAAA2 total 311875200 100.0000%
for other probablities, i may cover them in the coming time.
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tom, i see think you misunderstood about 5 small niu, i see you include 10 points but in Sihanoukville the 5 small niu is 9 points and below , 10 points is not a "5 small Niu"
btw why are the total permutations so high, this calculation is based on how many decks of cards?
To work out your bets you'll take the cards your looking for divided by the cards you have so for perfect niuniu, made from J,Q,K you have:
12/52*
11/51*
10/50*
9/49*
8/48
That gives you the probability of a prefect niuniu coming. If you want to know the chances of a second prefect niuniu coming in the same round you continue as such:
7/47*
6/46*
5/45*
4/44*
3/43=?
I'm writing this on my phone so I can't work out the numbers now but if you start at 12/52 and carry on until 3/43 you'll have your answer. It'll be a rare event for sure as the amount of needed cards becomes very little.
The figures for the last 3 hands on your list are posted somewhere here. I'm not sure your second hand can be worked out the same way, ill have to think about that for a while.
Hope that helps.
assuming the side bet is $5 and ill have the progressive jackpot starting at $20,000
1- Ultimate Niu Niu + Niu Niu 100% of the jackpot
( doesn't need to be a winning hand for the player side)
2- 9 points or below 10% of the jackpot
3- Four of a kind $2,000
4- Ultimate Niu Niu $1,500
5- Niu Niu + Niu Niu ( must be a winning hand for the player side) $400 ( this payout might be a bit higher but i have the other 4 i could make money )
* daily side bet income 60% goes to the house 40% goes to the progressive jackpot until the amount reaches $35,000
daily side bet income 80% goes to the house 20% goes to the progressive jackpot until the amount reaches $50,000
daily side bet income 90% goes to the house 10% goes to the progressive jackpot until the amount reaches $100,000
max progressive jackpot at $100,000
I do these progressive boards, for all card games including niuniu, for a company at the moment so I'm legally blocked from doing the work for you.
I can advise you to just stick to a certain seed amount from each bet going to the progressive payouts, divided amongst each bet and they don't have to be the same amount.
jackpot starts at $20,000 ( actual payout is it 46,000? ) after 46,000 game maybe the jackpot will be about 39,200 , still 12.6% edge
my customers here mainly small punters and they love small bets big wins hence jackpot are popular here, suited pair/dragon tiger and dragon 7/ baccarat are very popular , same goes for progressive jackpots.
I don't know if that's possible or even ok with Michael. Open to advice here.
Just wanna thank you, and along with the rest of the people here about the rules of Niu Niu.
I wanna keep this thread alive as I find this game interesting, may I kindly ask what is the general house edge? I have seen numbers such as 2.53%?
and double is 2.71%, and then 14% for triple etc
The game I developed has house edge 2.54% for ante and double is a free bet. I have a bonus bet with mine of 8.5% edge. The super niuniu or something like you said,I haven't checked.
Your casino?
The game rules I am applying right now follows the Cambodian rules,
and as follow I have the probability calculated, researched, and worked out (altho not sure if correct lol)
Ok, firstly here has 14 card types, ranking from 5 Siu Niu (5 cards all face value can only be 5 or below, and total points together cannot exceed 10), then 4 of a kind, and Flower hands (all JQK), and then the usual, Niu Niu, Niu 9 down to No Niu/High Card.
I have used AI to compute to probability, also cross referenced with Chinese websites that turns out to be a comfortable numbers.
I am working my way up, firstly as there are 14 card types, 14 combination, at ante here Niu 6 pays half only.
My calculation is that Niu 6 has a probability of 45.18%, and for Niu 6 outcomes, players get half pay, so expected return I have multiple that by 0.5, and it is 1 in 14 chances of getting Niu 6, would be 45.18% x 1/14 x 0.5. which equals to a intrinsic 0.0161
And for the remaining probability of outcomes, that's 13 out of 14 possibilities of obtaining each, and since they are all 1:1, means I don't need to concern the commission and additional payout odds. So it is expected return/expected chance of drawing any of these 13 card types would be 13/14. meaning around 92.8% chance of getting them.
Moving on, I just add the 92.8% as well as the 1.61% (niu 6), and minus that from 1 gives me the house edge of just 0.0559% for my set of games.
This makes sense to me so far but I am still seeking for industry professionals to see if my maths worked out right, and if the above calculations are correct, I am still stuck on the double bets, and super Niu Niu as they have many different payout structures with commission.
With that, I get an expected return of around 2.11, not sure if this can be considered a house edge..lol I am stuck and confused
