quintinsa
• Posts: 8
Joined: Sep 8, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 1:24:57 PM permalink
Hi all,

Does any one here have any maths on the game Niu Niu? a casino close to me has opened the game with out doing any research on it and I would like to introduce it but only if I like the math, Hold%, houses edge and sort of thing.
one deck game of 5 players per table.
table size as they have it is 50-500,

5 Card Under ten 5to1
4 of a kind 5to1
5 picture cards 5to1
0 5to1
9 4to1
8 3to1
7 2-1
1 to 6 1to1
If player and dealer have no hand, the highest card wins, there will be a count down of cards face value.
If all cards have the same value then suit comes into play with the top cards competing , suits are as follows, Spades, hearts, clubs then diamonds.

One thing that i find strange is the bet, or the way to bet, if a player plays 1 chip and they lose they need to pay 5 chips in! So what ever the house pays on a pay out, the customer pays in as well

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 8th, 2018 at 2:45:39 PM permalink
I've been hearing more and more about this game. It is sometimes called "bull bull" or "bullfight." Here is the best explanation of the rules I have found, but I'm still not sure I understand how much you win if you win.

Here are couple videos, but they probably won't help much: video 1, video 2.

Can anyone here explain the rules in English?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
unJon
• Posts: 4701
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 3:14:18 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I've been hearing more and more about this game. It is sometimes called "bull bull" or "bullfight." Here is the best explanation of the rules I have found, but I'm still not sure I understand how much you win if you win.

Here are couple videos, but they probably won't help much: video 1, video 2.

Can anyone here explain the rules in English?

Here’s a description of the game for an IPhone App;

The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 8th, 2018 at 3:25:32 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Here’s a description of the game for an IPhone App;

Thank you. That is the new best explanation of the rules in English, but I still have a number of questions. To start:

1. From your rules, it seems like baccarat in that the player is betting on which of two hands will win. However, if you win, you are paid at least 1 to 1 and sometimes more. Not counting ties, which push, it would seem the average win is more than 1 to 1, resulting in a player advantage. That, I doubt, is the case.

2. In this video, the dealer deals out seven hands. Why? Also you can see a joker in hand 2. How is the joker scored? Other sources I've seen on the rules claim any jokers are removed.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
quintinsa
• Posts: 8
Joined: Sep 8, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 3:28:28 PM permalink
Thanks, I am sort of looking for info on House advantage(is it good for me on casino floor? Or is it just a home game, to my understanding at a home game the bank can be anyone at the table and move around the table.........why would you not want to be the bank?
This game has sprung up in the casinos here and no one knows a thing about it other than playing at home.

Its sort of like saying, lets put 13 card rummy on the floor but the dealers plays for the house, therefore the skill of the dealer comes into play and not house advantage.

Hope I make sense.

Thanks
unJon
• Posts: 4701
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 3:31:47 PM permalink
I do not know the answers. But if I get bored later I may download the app and play a bit. If I do I will post what I figure out.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
quintinsa
• Posts: 8
Joined: Sep 8, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 3:32:14 PM permalink
Quote: quintinsa

Thanks, I am sort of looking for info on House advantage(is it good for me on casino floor? Or is it just a home game, to my understanding at a home game the bank can be anyone at the table and move around the table.........why would you not want to be the bank?
This game has sprung up in the casinos here and no one knows a thing about it other than playing at home.

Its sort of like saying, lets put 13 card rummy on the floor but the dealers plays for the house, therefore the skill of the dealer comes into play and not house advantage.

Hope I make sense.

Thanks

I'm thinking of some sort of probability calculator that I can use, is there something out there like this?
quintinsa
• Posts: 8
Joined: Sep 8, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 3:33:17 PM permalink
HAHA, thanks mate
quintinsa
• Posts: 8
Joined: Sep 8, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 3:35:48 PM permalink
These are some rules I found as well and the app that I downloaded.

quintinsa
• Posts: 8
Joined: Sep 8, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 3:39:37 PM permalink
the link doesnt seam to appear,

qiyogame
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 8th, 2018 at 3:45:39 PM permalink
I've done more searching and it seems at some online casinos you can bet on one of four hands, north, south, east, or west, which goes against the dealer. Still, it seems that wins pay at least 1 to 1 and sometimes more. There must be something that cuts the dealer's way.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
beachbumbabs
• Posts: 14268
Joined: May 21, 2013
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September 8th, 2018 at 3:48:39 PM permalink
Quote: quintinsa

These are some rules I found as well and the app that I downloaded.

http://www.qiyogame.com/cardgame.php?g=niuniu

New members can't post them at first. It's spam protection. Welcome to the board!

http://www.qiyogame.com/cardgame.php?g=niuniu

Another link, same site. Slightly different name. Haven't compared the body of the text, but perhaps more info.

http://www.qiyogame.com/cardgame.php?g=niuniutour
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 8th, 2018 at 3:55:52 PM permalink
All these sites seem to be copying the same set of rules.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
unJon
• Posts: 4701
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 3:57:38 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I've done more searching and it seems at some online casinos you can bet on one of four hands, north, south, east, or west, which goes against the dealer. Still, it seems that wins pay at least 1 to 1 and sometimes more. There must be something that cuts the dealer's way.

OP makes it sound like the player has to payoff a dealer good hand at 5-1 also. Still doesn’t show an endge though, but brings it back to parity.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 8th, 2018 at 4:04:32 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

OP makes it sound like the player has to payoff a dealer good hand at 5-1 also. Still doesn’t show an endge though, but brings it back to parity.

Good observation.

Getting back to the joker mystery, in this video, at the 1:13 point, there is a joker.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
quintinsa
• Posts: 8
Joined: Sep 8, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 4:18:54 PM permalink
hi,

Yeah so if you play as an example 10 dollar bet, the dealer gets the perfect niu niu, then you loose the bet plus you pay an extra 40
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 8th, 2018 at 4:55:24 PM permalink
Quote: quintinsa

hi,

Yeah so if you play as an example 10 dollar bet, the dealer gets the perfect niu niu, then you loose the bet plus you pay an extra 40

Tell me what is going on in the hand in this video, starting at the 0:27 point.

You can see the player has 95.25 before making his bets. He makes two bets of 5. What the bet on the yellow left circle is, I have no idea.

The dealer gets niu-niu and the player gets niu-3. So, the player should have to pay the dealer another \$20 on whatever the base bet is, but doesn't. He only loses the original 10.

If anyone can tell me exactly what is happening in that hand, I would appreciate it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
September 8th, 2018 at 5:46:46 PM permalink
If anyone can translate Chinese, there appears to be a good explanation of the rules at https://www.asia-gaming.com/bullfight/. Thank you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
unJon
• Posts: 4701
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 6:11:02 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

If anyone can translate Chinese, there appears to be a good explanation of the rules at https://www.asia-gaming.com/bullfight/. Thank you.

Wizard, there’s a “EN” translate button on that page. I’m on my iPhone but for me if I click the upper right menu there’s an English option.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
gordonm888
• Posts: 5268
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
September 8th, 2018 at 6:17:40 PM permalink
Does this payout table which comes from this link: LINK imply a rake of 5%, because the losing odds are greater than the winning odds?

Player and Banker Winning Odds Player and Banker Losing Odds
Hand Double Equal_________ Hand Double Equal
5 Gong 1 : 4.75__ 1 : 0.95_____ 5 Gong 1 : 5__ 1 : 1
Bull Bull 1 : 2.85__ 1 : 0.95_____ Bull Bull 1 : 3__ 1 : 1
Bull 9 1 : 1.90__ 1 : 0.95________ Bull 9 1 : 2__ 1 : 1
Bull 7 1 : 0.95__ 1 : 0.95________ Bull 7 1 : 1__ 1 : 1
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
unJon
• Posts: 4701
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
September 8th, 2018 at 6:19:19 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Does this payout table which comes from this link: LINK imply a rake of 5%, because the losing odds are greater than the winning odds?

Player and Banker Winning Odds Player and Banker Losing Odds
Hand Double Equal_________ Hand Double Equal
5 Gong 1 : 4.75__ 1 : 0.95_____ 5 Gong 1 : 5__ 1 : 1
Bull Bull 1 : 2.85__ 1 : 0.95_____ Bull Bull 1 : 3__ 1 : 1
Bull 9 1 : 1.90__ 1 : 0.95________ Bull 9 1 : 2__ 1 : 1
Bull 7 1 : 0.95__ 1 : 0.95________ Bull 7 1 : 1__ 1 : 1

Yes! Just found this paytable with a similar rake: https://asia-gaming.com/niuniu/

I still have questions about all this. The link I posted has the best explanation I’ve found so far. But the rules at each site seem different. Maybe this game hasn’t yet settled into uniform rules?

ETA: actually the link I just posted above I think answers everything. “Equal” bet is just a bet in banker or player winning with 5% commission. And no bonuses. “Double” bet has bonuses per pay table. I think it’s enough info to calculate everything.

But this site seems inconsistent with some other sites and bets you can make so I’m still unsure. Also I’ve now played about 20 hands on the iPhone app and I’m very confused about a “high card” hand, which always seems to push no matter what the various cards are. ETA: to clarify High Card vs High Card is always a push on the app.
Last edited by: unJon on Sep 8, 2018
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Wizard
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Joined: Oct 14, 2009
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September 8th, 2018 at 8:10:13 PM permalink
This is going to be difficult to explain, but here is where I'm at so far.

1. The rules seem to vary from casino to casino. I'm going to focus on the Asia Gaming rules, since they at least have the courtesy to try to explain the rules properly in Chinese.
2. I'm going to assume six 52-card decks. I acknowledge that some other casinos use jokers, but I don't know how many or how they are scored.
3. Both dealer and player get five cards each. These five cards must be divided between 3-card and 2-card hands.
4. The highest hand is five face cards.
5. Otherwise, hands are scored as in baccarat, where the terminal digit of the total points being the score.
6. Cards are scored as in baccarat: aces = 1 point, 2-9 = pip value, 10 & face cards = 0.
7. The second highest hand is 0/0 (meaning zero points on both hands).
8. Otherwise, the best hands are zero points in the three-card hand and as many point as possible (up to nine) in the two-card hand
9. Otherwise, I think at Asia Gaming, all hands where zero points can't be made in the three-card hand are equally worthless. Other sites go by the highest individual card, but I'm trying to focus on just one set of rules for now.
10. There are two types of bets, the "flat" and "double."
11. A "flat" bet is simply on the winner between player and dealer. Wins pay 0.95 to 1.
12. A "double" bet must honor or receive the following odds on the winning hand:
5 face cards = 5 to 1
zero points in both hands = 3 to 1
zero points in the three-card hand and 7 to 9 points in the two-card hand = 2 to 1
All other wins = 1 to 1
13. Double bets must be the same amount as the "flat" bet. Since there is no commission on wins, it is like the Odds bet in craps.

That is my understanding as of now. I wish I could actually play this somewhere to confirm or deny. Meanwhile, I welcome all comments, questions, and corrections (preferably with evidence).

Thank you.
Last edited by: Wizard on Sep 9, 2018
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 5th, 2018 at 10:50:20 PM permalink
Hi,
There are 82 casinos operating in Sihanoukville Cambodia and another 7 opening on 1st January. There will be 200 casinos by this time next year. About 70% of the table action is Niu Niu. 25% baccarat and the rest is mostly dragon tiger. The rules i am attaching are widely used in most casinos here. I would appreciate someone telling me the house edge on the front bet, not the ante. There is no edge on the ante. You can play this game without placing the second bet if you desire. The second bet gets paid even money with a score of 1-6 . 7-9(ham) gets paid 2:1 and 10(nhau ham) gets paid 3:1. Also if you lose because dealer has 7-9 You lose your front bet and ante plus the value of an additional front bet. If you lose when dealer has nhau Ham(10) you lose your front bet and anti bet plus 2 x your front bet. The dealer takes 5% commission from your front bet when you win on a total of 7-10.
Read the rules (i didn't write them) and hopefully you will have a better understanding.
I would like to know the expected hold on turnover on the front bet. Any questions please ask.
Muchas gracias.
Last edited by: andrew888 on Dec 6, 2018
andrew888
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Joined: Sep 22, 2013
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December 5th, 2018 at 10:53:59 PM permalink

1. INTRODUCTION
2. BETTING LAYOUT
3. BETTING LIMIT
4. PAYOUT TABLE
5. BETTING LAYOUT
6. DEALING
7. COLLECTION OF LOSING BETS
8. MAKING PAYMENT
9. IRREGULARITIES

1. INTRODUCTION

1.1 The Game of Niu Niu shall be played with one deck of cards.

1.2 The deck of cards shall comprise of 52 cards not taking the Joker into account.

1.3 The deck of cards is made up of four suits known as Spade, Diamond, Club and Heart. Each suit shall comprise of King, Queen, Jack and ten other cards carrying denoted numerical ranging from one to ten.

1.4 All picture cards shall carry the value of ten, other cards shall carry their denoted numerical value (Ace shall carry the value of one).

1.5 The objective of the game is to achieve a higher-ranking hand than the dealer hand.

1.6 Once the hand achieve a “NGAU” (total of 3 cards add up to a multiple of 10), the highest point with higher ranking card will win the game. However, if player hand having same point & card ranking with the dealer hand, the suits will be determine the winning hand.

1.7 The player may lose a double or triple times of the betting on the Double bet, when the dealer hand achieve a 7 point and above.

1.8 The dealer must deal the cards one at a time until each player and dealer has five cards.

1.9 All players shall play against the House and any of them may elect to bet or play either on “ANTE” or “DOUBLE”.

1.10 Players can bet maximum of 3 hands for each game if other hands are empty, provided the player must view only one hand and show the card before viewing another hand.

2. THE LAYOUT

2.1 The game of Niu Niu shall be played on a table with a layout similar to that shown in the Diagram below and the layout cloth covering the table shall be imprinted with the name and/or logo of the casino.

3. BETTING LIMIT
Betting Limit Per Boxes
Min
ANTE / DOUBLE Max
ANTE / DOUBLE
\$20 \$1,000
\$40 \$3,000
\$60 \$5,000
\$100 \$10,000

4. PAYOUT TABLE
Player Winning Hand

Card Types
Odds of Ante
Odds of Double

Ngau Ham
1:1
1:3 (Com.5%)

Ham 7 – Ham 9
1:1
1:2 (Com.5%)

Normal
1:1
1:1 (No Commission)

Player Losing Hand

Card Types
Odds of Ante
Odds of Double

Ngau Ham
1:1
Lose 1:3

Ham 7 – Ham 9
1:1
Lose 1:2

Normal
1:1
Lose 1:1

5. RANKING OF NIU NIU:

Card Types
Diagram
Explanation

Ngau Ham
5 cards consist of J , Q , K

Ngau Ham 3 cards add up to a multiple of 10. The rest of 2 cards add up to 10 or 20.

Ham 9 points 3 cards add up to a multiple of 10. The rest of 2 cards add up to 9 or 19.

Ham 8 points 3 cards add up to a multiple of 10. The rest of 2 cards add up to 8 or 18.

Ham 7 points 3 cards add up to a multiple of 10. The rest of 2 cards add up to 7 or 17.

Ham 6 points and below
6 points, 5 points, 4 points, 3 points, 2 points & 1 point 3 cards add up to a multiple of 10. The rest of 2 cards add up to 6 and below or 16 and below.

No Ngau
Unable to make 3 cards a multiple of 10 or 20.

5.1 If the points are the same, choose the highest ranking of the 5 cards to indicate the winning hand.When having same ranking of card, the highest ranking of suit will determine the winning hand.

5.2 Ranking of Card : K>Q>J>10>9>8>7>6>5>4>3>2>ACE

5.3 Ranking of Suit: Spades > Hearts > Club >Diamond

6. DEALING

6.1 The Shuffling Procedures shall take effect prior to commencement of each new game.

6.2 Prior to the commencement of a round of play and after all bettings are on the table, the Dealer announces "No more Bets".

6.3 The dealer shall proceed to shake the dice cup to determine which hand shall receive the first card.

6.4 After the dice point has been established, the dealer shall proceed to place the Banker marker to determine which hand shall receive the first card.

6.5 The dealer shall use the right hand to shake the dice cup for two times before offering it to the Player. However, if there is no players wish to shake the dice cup ,the dealer shall shake the dice cup for two times again.
6.6 The dealer shall lift up the cover of the dice cup and announce the total points of the two dice.

6.7 The dealer will hold the cards with the left hand and distribute the card by using the right hand to the respective box.

6.8 The dealer shall deal the cards one at a time until each player and dealer has five cards.

6.9 Players are allow to view their cards once their hand has been dealt with five cards.

6.10 The dealer will keep the remaining cards at the discard holder.

6.11 The dealer will proceed to open Banker’s card while players viewing their cards.

7. COLLECTION OF LOSING BETS

7.1 Arrange the highest ranking card and place on top, then arrange each customer cards per box properly and visible by the Surveillance.

7.2 If the house cards “NO NGAU” the dealer shall:
7.2.1 Arrange the highest ranking card and place on top, then arrange each customer cards per box properly and visible by the Surveillance.
7.2.2 Announce “NO NGAU” and proceed to compare Dealer’s hand to each player’s hand individually starting from the right to left.
7.2.3 If the player LOSES, collect the losing wagers (ANTE follows by DOUBLE) and placed the cards into discard holder.

7.3 When dealer hand achieve a 7 point and above, the dealer shall spread the original bet and the additional losing bets from player’s before collect the chips into the float.

8. MAKING PAYMENT

8.1 Spread the winning bet in a horizontal row before preparing the payout.

8.2 When paying the winning bets, the dealer shall prepare the ANTE bet payout and announce the amount to be paid. Subsequently, the dealer shall prepare the DOUBLE bet payout and announce the amount to be paid.

8.3 The dealer shall stack up the payout for the DOUBLE bet and place it on top of the ANTE bet payout before passing out to the player.

8.4 The payout shall be place next to the winning bets.

8.5 The dealer shall stack up the original bet and invite the to collect by showing open palm.

9. IRREGULARITIES

9.1 In the event that any of the following situations occur, the game shall be considered void:

9.1.1 Any foreign card that does not form part of the set of cards is found in the progress of a game. The outcome of all previous games will stand. The cards in use shall be removed from the table and new cards shall be put into play;
9.1.2 There is any shortage or excess of cards in the deck; or
9.1.3 A Player or the Dealer hand is dealt an incorrect number of cards during the game

9.2 Any hand left out in the process of dealing, that hand shall be suspended for that game.

9.3 Any card found drop off from the table in any circumstances, APM/PM shall immediately inform CCTV prior to pick the card for verification.

9.4 During delivery the card to players, if the dealer accidentally draw out 2 or more card simultaneously, APM/PM shall verify with CCTV. However, if the card is unable to determine, the game shall be suspended.

9.5 If the card found face up during distribution, the game is considered valid.

9.6 During shuffling process, the card shall be reshuffle if four (4) or more cards are exposed.

9.7 All irregularities must be reported to CSM on duty.

In case of any irregularity not covered in this operation manual, the decision of management shall be final, absolute and conclusive.
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 5th, 2018 at 10:54:58 PM permalink
Sorry it would not accept images for ranking but i hope this helps.
charliepatrick
• Posts: 2997
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
December 6th, 2018 at 5:12:33 PM permalink
I haven't really studied all the payout rules but did notice a slightly different game using the same idea ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnau )

This got me thinking whether it should really be an Ante Raise game or Ante always plays (so is 50:50) and the Raise is only paid on winning good hands. (This works if player and dealer NoHands are standoff (mathematically equivalent to plays) and Raise is paid 5, 3, then 1 for 6-9).

Thinking 3CP and doing a very quick calculation, sadly gives the chances of getting a NoHand (with 1 deck) of just over 1/3 - thus if the payouts were like 3CP you'd always stay in the game (it actually works with bonus pays for the two best hands).
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 6th, 2018 at 8:17:50 PM permalink
Some clarification to the rules which is not clear in the procedures. You can bet on the ante only or the front bet only or both. There are no push bets on both. If no hand (3 cards totaling 10 or 20 from all 5 cards) the ranking applies to both bets. When you do make a hand the the highest 2 card hand wins. There is no house edge on both bets apart from the 5% taken when a player wins on a 2 card qualified hand totaling 7-10. Ante is always paid even money.
Some people are considering paying commission on the front bet without knowing the hold. You can still turn over chips on the front bet with no hand or totals of 1 to 6 and not pay the 5%.
Last edited by: andrew888 on Dec 6, 2018
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 7th, 2018 at 2:47:38 AM permalink
Thank you for the rules. I think this gives me enough to go on, but once I start to code the game some questions may bubble up.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 7th, 2018 at 4:09:18 AM permalink
Excellent.
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 7th, 2018 at 7:16:11 PM permalink
Okay, I hope you guys are happy, I at least put the rules to Niu Niu in writing. Please visit my Niu Niu page to read them. I should give thanks to Mrs. Wizard for helping me translate this Asia Gaming page.

Just understanding the rules of this game I think will be the biggest challenge. At this point, I welcome any questions, comments, or corrections on the rules, before the programming begins.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 7th, 2018 at 9:20:36 PM permalink
Hi from Sihanoukville (Snooky) the home of Niu Niu.

I think there needs to be a difference between online Niu Niu and table niu niu.

No.4 Casino Niu Niu is dealt similar to caribbean stud and they use a paigow dice shaker to determine first delivery of the cards. Online Niu Niu is similar to baccarat in card delivery.

No.5 You can bet on ante or double or both.

No. 11 No 5% on ante.

No.12 No ultimate Niu Niu on almost all Casino tables. There are a few down market casinos with no procedures and dealers sometimes without uniforms and pit managers smoking and drinking in the pits that pay ultimate.

Have to run but am always open to questions.

Regards.

Andrew888
charliepatrick
• Posts: 2997
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
December 8th, 2018 at 3:24:02 AM permalink
I see the logic now, perhaps this kind of thing needs to be added to the wizard page after describing the scoring etc.

For betting purposes two hands being compared with the higher ranked one winning (if equal: use highest card in hand). Sometimes you can choose which hand to wager on (rather like in Baccarat); but as all hands are played in the same way, every hand has an equal chance of winning.

For any given hand you have a choice of two bets
(a) "Ante": Even money - simply that the chosen hand out ranks the other.
(b) "Double": Bonus payouts - there are also higher payouts if either side wins with very good hands. This means, while you could win up to 5 to 1, you also have to be prepared to pay out up to 5 to 1 if the other hand wins.
Since all these bets are fair (as each side has an equal chance) the casino makes its money from charging 5% commission on winning payouts (cynically this is why hands with equal rankings are split using the highest card so (single deck) there are never any ties).
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 8th, 2018 at 5:41:32 AM permalink
Quote: andrew888

No. 11 No 5% on ante.

The rules at Asia Gaming show a 5% commission on winning Ante bets, as well as Double bets.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 8th, 2018 at 6:12:05 AM permalink
I just did a major rewrite of my Niu Niu rules, hopefully for the better. As in my rules, I will use capital letters when talking about bets and lower case when talking about people playing the game.

I do have some questions on how the game is dealt in Cambodia.

1. How many sets of cards are dealt at a time. For example, three Player and three Dealer hands. Can the player bet on the Dealer hand?
2. How many decks are used?
3. Is there a joker?
4. Is there a side bet? If so, what are the rules and pay table for it?
5. In the video below, you can see there is a joker in the second dealer's hand. I don't think using a joker is the norm, but does anyone know how it is scored?

Thank you.
Last edited by: Wizard on Dec 8, 2018
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
BleedingChipsSlowly
• Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
December 8th, 2018 at 12:00:18 PM permalink
I watched the video. Hands are not always pysically separated into 3 and 2 cards. If no three-card combination that is a multiple of 10 exists the highest ranking card is separated from the other 4 cards.

One dealer's hand is divided this way: 356Q/Joker

I think this implies the joker outranks a queen and I would infer a king as well. That is, the joker appears to be the highest ranking card. The symbology for hand ranking superimposed in the video suggests the joker's value is 10, at least when it stands alone. Since no 3-card combination was separated it stands to reason the joker cannot count as 1, 2 or 9.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
UCivan
• Posts: 843
Joined: Sep 3, 2011
December 8th, 2018 at 3:03:39 PM permalink
Niu Niu looks like an extension of Saigon-5; or at least based upon the same logic / mechanics

https://wizardofodds.com/games/saigon-5-card/
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 8th, 2018 at 3:05:31 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

Niu Niu looks like an extension of Saigon-5; or at least based upon the same logic / mechanics

https://wizardofodds.com/games/saigon-5-card/

Thanks. I knew this game felt familiar writing my program, especially looking for groups of 3 cards with 0 points.

My simulation is running on Niu Niu. I will have results in about an hour.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
UCivan
• Posts: 843
Joined: Sep 3, 2011
December 8th, 2018 at 3:07:49 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks. I knew this game felt familiar writing my program, especially looking for groups of 3 cards with 0 points.

My simulation is running on Niu Niu. I will have results in about an hour.

Niu Niu means Cow Cow in Chinese, if no one pointed this out yet.
BleedingChipsSlowly
• Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
December 8th, 2018 at 3:28:01 PM permalink
Quote: UCivan

Niu Niu means Cow Cow in Chinese, if no one pointed this out yet.

Ah! Thanks, the video superimposes 牛 over 10-value card combinations. Niu = 牛
A less-used meaning is "neat" as in tidy.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 8th, 2018 at 5:03:13 PM permalink
Okay, you guys can be the first in the world to see the math of Niu Niu. Please click the link.

A dilemma arises when defining the house edge of the Double bet. It is easy to say what the numerator is, an expected loss of 3.99% of a unit. However, what should be the denominator? The least possible loss of one unit, the maximum possible loss of five units, or perhaps the average amount that changes hands, which is 1.56 units. I welcome thoughts on that.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 8th, 2018 at 6:24:02 PM permalink
Hi Wizard,
I am not involved with niu niu online. I have had a look at some sites and there seems to be a variety of rules for niu niu online.
I am focused on table games and the casinos here (our competition). Most of the casinos are following the same rules except for a few outliers.
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 8th, 2018 at 6:29:45 PM permalink
Yes every hand has an equal chance of winning.
(b) double bonus payouts, most casinos here only pay a max of 3 to 1. yes the casino only makes money from the 5% on winning 3:1 and 2:1 bets on the front or double bet. Yes ranking is an important part of the game and no ties /push.
Wizard
• Posts: 26842
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 8th, 2018 at 7:15:45 PM permalink
Hi Andrew,

1. How many decks are used?
2. In the land casinos in Cambodia, can the player bet on either the Player or Dealer? Are there multiple handle hands dealt at once?
3. If the highest card does not break a tie, does the second highest card break it?
4. Any side bet?

Thank you.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 8th, 2018 at 7:20:13 PM permalink
Hi Wizard,
Your rules seem to encompass all the important parts of the game and everything is clear.
Your 3.99% and 2.56% is what i am selfishly chasing but without the ultimate niu niu. If i could get those figures i would be a very happy man..

1. One deck of 52 cards is used per game and dealt similar to caribbean stud. Most casinos are rotating 2 decks of different colors. The dealer is only dealing one hand for the house. We have betting areas for 5 players but that varies from casino to casino. An individual player can play up to 3 hands per game. i.e. play a hand then expose the cards and move to the next hand. On our tables a maximum of 30 cards will be in play per hand(5 x players and the dealer).
Can the player bet on the dealer hand? no.
The player can bet on the anti or front/double bet or both.
2. Answered in question 1. I have not seen casinos using more than 1 deck.
3. I have not seen jokers being used but it would not surprise me if a casino is using jokers. I have visited about 40 of the 82 casinos operating.
4. I am not aware of a side bet but again it would not surprise me if a casino is offering a side bet. We are in a jurisdiction with no government oversight apart from paying taxes and following some labor laws.
5. No i don't know how it is scored. I will ask some of my Chinese friends. Almost all the casinos here are owned and operated by Chinese and cater to Chinese customers. The development going on here is amazing and land prices have skyrocketed. It is now more expensive to live here than Macau in many respects.
Also someone mentioned the dealer configuring players and dealers cards 4-1 instead of 3-2 when no nhau (no hand).
We also do this to highlight the highest ranking hand.
Last edited by: andrew888 on Dec 8, 2018
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 8th, 2018 at 7:29:10 PM permalink
Charlie, yes the ranking is important. We do not pay 5 to 1 for the ultimate niu niu but i believe a few casinos do pay for the ultimate niu niu. The game is even throughout apart from the 5% commission. You can bet only on the ante and never pay commission and many players choose to play this way.
unJon
• Posts: 4701
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
December 8th, 2018 at 7:31:07 PM permalink
Quote: andrew888

Charlie, yes the ranking is important. We do not pay 5 to 1 for the ultimate niu niu but i believe a few casinos do pay for the ultimate niu niu. The game is even throughout apart from the 5% commission. You can bet only on the ante and never pay commission and many players choose to play this way.

Where’s the house edge if you only play the ante?
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
andrew888
• Posts: 64
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
December 8th, 2018 at 7:32:28 PM permalink
There is no house edge on the ante and many players choose to bet only on the ante.
BleedingChipsSlowly
• Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
December 9th, 2018 at 12:54:17 AM permalink
Quote: andrew888

There is no house edge on the ante and many players choose to bet only on the ante.

Wow! This is a very exciting game for players. I would guess with no house edge for the ante and most players betting that, no amenities such as free drinks are given. I do not understand why some players wager double and expose themselves to losses by house edge. Maybe that is just the way gambling is done in Asia? Can you share any information about what level of profit the casinos get for this game?
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
andrew888