Face-Up Pai Gow

In the game Face-Up Pai Gow would the house advantage change if the casino charged a 5% commission instead of having the game be commission free (ace high pai gow push)? If so what is the house advantage difference between charging the 5% commission versus having it commission free (ace high pai gow push)?

It would be better for the players if 5% was charged instead of A-high.

It may be enough to make it +ev, but the calculations on it would be extremely difficult to run.

Quote: FinsRule

It would be better for the players if 5% was charged instead of A-high.

It may be enough to make it +ev, but the calculations on it would be extremely difficult to run.

I disagree. The Ace High Pai Gow mechanism is quite a bit less than the 5% commission. The reason it is used is that it drastically increases hands per hour. I have the exact calculation somewhere.

Quote: FCBLComish

I disagree. The Ace High Pai Gow mechanism is quite a bit less than the 5% commission. The reason it is used is that it drastically increases hands per hour. I have the exact calculation somewhere.

This is incorrect. Q-high was pretty close to the 5% commission for the face down version. J-high would have been too advantageous to the player. K-high was too much of a penalty to players. So A-high offsets both the commission and the fact that it's face up. So that means that charging commission but getting rid of the A-high would be big for the player.

Am I totally confused? Wouldn't just charging 5% commission and getting rid of A-high mean that the game was regular pai gow, but with it being face up???

Quote: FinsRule

This is incorrect. Q-high was pretty close to the 5% commission for the face down version. J-high would have been too advantageous to the player. K-high was too much of a penalty to players. So A-high offsets both the commission and the fact that it's face up. So that means that charging commission but getting rid of the A-high would be big for the player.

Am I totally confused? Wouldn't just charging 5% commission and getting rid of A-high mean that the game was regular pai gow, but with it being face up???

I don't think you're confused. I think you should win more often with face-up, as there are hands you will set differently, both to push and to win, and know the result, rather than setting the best odds but not sure thing. So, you pay commission more often, but you're winning the other 95% more often, and perhaps more importantly, you're not losing as often (pushing more). It has to make a big difference to know where the dealers aces are.

So instead of it being about a 2% HE, it would be 1% or less.

Ace high occurs about 9.4% of the time, and loses on average about 88% of the time (very roughly). So allowing the dealer to not have to play ace-high is about a 7.6% hit. That is much bigger than the effect of a 5% commission on winnings which is about 2.3%.

So a player advantage. Point for FinsRule.

Quote: gordonm888

Ace high occurs about 9.4% of the time, and loses on average about 88% of the time (very roughly). So allowing the dealer to not have to play ace-high is about a 7.6% hit. That is much bigger than the effect of a 5% commission on winnings which is about 2.3%.

Now, contrast that to the fact that you see the dealer hand before you set yours. Every decision comes with perfect information.

You for example would split a pair of kings with KK98732 vs the dealers AAQJ432 and get a push when you are a stone cold loser if you did not know the dealer's hand. Every 2 pair decision will be correct.